ATF in TF727?

What kind of ATF in a 727? Dexron or typeF?

Type F for me since 1972

Type F.

There are better options than type f. I am NOT saying it won't work, but there are better fluids.

Guys always recommended type F in a race trans, because it was a straight fluid with no friction modifiers, which resulted in firmer shifts, but a not quite as long lasting fluid. That still holds true, but this isn't the 60s or 70s. In a race car, use a race fluid. If you want the absolute cheapest, use the Type F

Better for frictions and hard parts life, shift quality, ET/MPH, temperature, and/or consistency? Is there one that you see ahead of the others in every consideration or are there trade offs? Some folks will give up durability for ET and vice versa.

I've tried others, both dino and synthetic, and both 2 and 3 speeds, and it always resulted in evidence of increased clutch/band slippage, more trash in the pan and/or wear. Always come back to the Type FA Valvoline or Napa or Carquest brand. Seemed to work the best with my limited testing and it's cheap enough you can service the trans every 20 or 30 runs without having to eat ramen noodles for lunch everyday. I've never had an opportunity to try different oils in anything with data logging to see what the difference may be there.

We swear by Lucas Oil

http://lucasoil.com/products/transmission-products/2012-11-05-17-14-3

We've used it for years with no issues what so ever....

We have used type F, Dex/Merc, universal ATF, Dex 3, and John Deere hygard fluid. Many different brands, from Walmart brand (Super Tech) to name brands. Never used synthetic fluids, always mineral.

It all works and never an issue caused by the type or brand of fluid that we have seen in our 727's

Type F here.. I can get it to last years.. till
I'm ready for a tear down

I can tell you this. The fastest doorslammers on the planet, that run OEM type transmissions, don't run type F. In our own car, with a 2 speed Turbo 400 and making 2500HP, we run John Deere hydraulic fluid. We data log everything, even on the trans. This gives us the best performance and reliability. Also, most "race" trans fluids that are not synthetic, are just hydrostatic fluid with some color added. It's VERY heat resistant, doesn't foam, locks up tight and has very good wear characteristics. The clutches in our 400 have been in there 3 seasons...........The tractor fluid while not as cheap as Type F, is not bad if you buy it in 5 gal buckets.

What was absolutely the "cheapest" and "good enough" was never the criteria I use to buy race car stuff though

You can't "get it" to last years.....it just does based on the amount the trans gets used and the slippage. Given identical temps and slippage, type F has the lowest service life of about any trans fluid.

I like a 50/50 mix of Type F and Dexron/Mercon.

I talked to Jim Paquet a few years ago who owned JPT( Jims performance transmissions) now retired
His brother Ray races a SS/ B thunderbolt. Very well known family.
Jim built trannies for pretty much everybody in the Ford stock and super stock world. In addition to all the others.
He told me the best fluid for a race trans 727 was type F. I would consider him as much an expert as anybody in the country.
I expect most any racer would change tranny fluid at least once a season anyhow.

Say what ever you want Don.. when I was racing
(most every weekend) it lasted 4 years. I pulled
the pan to check things and put it back together
with a new filter and fluid

I don't doubt anything anyone says based on years of experience, but when it comes to what is "best" for anything is a very random question and has no clear cut answer. If you have been building race trans for 30 years, always used Type F and never had many problems, sure, you can claim that the best. Same with cams, intakes or anything else............but this is 2016. Hard to fathom that a very basic oil from the 60s and earlier, is the absolute BEST fluid you can put in a race trans. Why aren't we all still running straight 30W Quaker State for oil. Or "mushroom" cams, pinion snubbers, casler tires or anything else that was the BEST in the 60s.

Like I said, Type F will work and obviously many still use it. I only said there was better fluid and I believe that

I dont claim anything.. it works for me and
its cheap... I dnt know why I worry about cheap
because I dont change it very often.. I have tried
the TSC tractor fluid once to see if I could increase
the stall.. that was the same as the Deere fluid

Interesting I won't even use John Deere Hydraulic fluid in my John Deere ...stuff burnt up like crazy. I do have an extra 30 or so gallons I should try in an automatic.

Edit: thinking to myself out loud which John Deere Fluid?

Hyguard, low viscosity hyguard, hydrau, hydrau XR (the last 2 are speced for construction equipment) I assume you don't use the bio stuff.

When I asked A & A Transmissions which fluid they recommended, they said +4. Most of the +4 is now synthetic and double the cost of ATF or F. I would be interested in hearing more about the hydro oil.

Is this an in service trans that you're just doing a fluid and filter change on, or is this a fresh built unit?
did you build the trans, or did someone else do it?
if it's a trans your just doing a service on, i would just use the same type fluid that came out( if you know).
if this is a fresh trans that someone built, ask them, they built it, they know what they like in their builds.

I was wondering too, JD makes several hydraulic fluids.

I use John Deere fluid. Was highly recommended on the turbo forums and yellow bullet. Tightens the stall a bit, but I've had no problems on the street. 440 w/ S475 Turbo & 727.

Many say a TF must use Type F and then one of the foremost TF guys, Rick Allison at A&A says ATF+4. Bottom line, it all works. Choose what you like best or think works best

If I make the switch to John deer hydraulic fluid, can I just pull the trans and drain it and drain the converter? or does it have to be a empty fresh rebuild trans and converter?

I basically agree with everyone. It seems many have used the type they like for years and have had good luck with it. Myself I use the Mopar ATF+4 but since I was a tech at a Dodge dealer for 24 years and did auto trans work along with the other work I did I have a small stock of the ATF+4 since we usually would charge out an extra qt of fluid on warranty jobs and us guys who did trans work always had some extra. So it is good on my pocket to use the ATF+4 and its worked great for me for many years. But I would have no problem using some of the others mentioned on here either. Ron

I also use ATF+4, it's what I was told to use by Tranzact so I listened.

The one reason I run the type F is the guys
in the trans lab at Chrysler... I had plenty
of friends in there and asked this question
when I started racing... ALL of them said F
so I did.. some of them were racers with quick
cars... and the first trans that I used was built
by one of those guys and again he said type F..
but this is my junk 727
EDIT
this is still a trans from the 60s so whats so
different...... JMO on this.. since I dont race
big dollar stuff

Drain it, change it and it will be fine.

So you asked when you started racing Mr P..........how long ago was that.....LOL!!! Have you asked since

Seems as though, the correct fluid would be what the different friction material requires. They have different coefficient of friction, just like the fluid. Don't expect to find any quick info, I've searched on and off for years, and give up. Just like the 2 hours I wasted today. I use Raybestos Blue Plates and type F. I can read the lettering after 250 passes, with the correct clearance. If and when I know what Raybestos recommends, I'll consider changing.

I started racing a long time ago.. most likely when
you were young... but the last time I asked... about
8 years ago.. did they change the 727 since then..
if so I will look at hyd fluid.... again

seems like they all work about the same

"edited by Monte_Smith" - come on Monte, don't hold back.

I emailed Raybestos. The tech person said blue plate clutch linings were engineered for multiple fluids. Typical corporate response, vague, but telling. I'll stick to what has worked. Ademon is right. Seems they all are ok, in Raybestos eyes.

I'm using a +4 type synthetic lube over 200 runs, took trans apart to change gear ratio, clutches look nice a couple of steels had some hot spots, I changed them and put it back together. 10.00 high 9 sec car.

This is pretty simple. Automatic transmissions, regardless of make work the same. There are some bearings and some clutch packs. You have to lube the hard parts and the clutch packs still "bite". Years ago, you had Dextron and Type F basically. Dextron had friction modifiers in it, Type F didn't. So in a race trans, it was felt Type F would let the clutches grab better. In reality they obviously BOTH worked just fine but some builders preferred one fluid or the other.

Today, as with everything else, we have learned a lot. Parts are more precise, clutch material is better, coated steels and all sorts of other things to make the trans work better. We also have much better fluid. The lubricity is better, but so is the "bite". How do you do that........additives. So as a result, Modern fluids are much more refined. They let your "driver" pickup truck shift without you even feeling it, by slipping the clutches but not burning them, and when it's needed, can still lock up firmly to tow that trailer and lock the converter up. You slip the clutches much with old type fluid and the heat scorches the fluid and it's trash. New fluids are MUCH more resistant to heat, foaming, scorching and lubricity breakdown. Simply put, it's better. You want to run old school fluid because you always have and it's worked......fine. Nobody is trying to stop you. But modern fluid is simply better. In a harsh environment, like a race trans, with a loose converter(that makes heat, lots of it) small or non existent coolers, yet wanting to maintain max bite and good lube qualities. Which fluid you think is BETTER. I didn't said would work, I said BETTER.

Monty JD lists five hydraulic fluids. Which one do you you run?

I would like to know this answer my self.

So when we are talking friction and gripping properties and making it last on the track, how about a trans that sees more street duty and some weekends at the track?? I have always used the Dex style but am open to change for max trans life!! Thanks. I like the fact that there are some good people here who know their stuff!!

Never tried it. But I may, and looking at the specs, I would use the low viscosity Hy-Gard in a normal trans like most of us run. The viscosity numbers are very close to the normal ATF+4 and Type F. The regular Hy-Gard is quite a bit thicker. Would not be surprised if that is what is used in the real high horsepower units just for that reason.

Both of the Hydrau oils are higher viscosity than normal ATF, but the Hydrau XR is close. That may be an option also for the big power cars, but it's actually made for construction and forestry equipment.

Most use Hy-Guard or the Low Viscocity Hy-Guard. The Low Viscosity is a direct swap for most ATFs, except if you read the standards is MUCH more durable and maintains viscosity better at higher temps and that's what we WANT.

I would suggest the low viscosity for anybody wanting to swap.

We have run regular Hy-Guard and a lot of guys with Bruno's and Lenco Drives use this. The regular Hy-Guard will generally tighter your converter up about 200-300 on the stall.

Same question from me??

Been doing some reading it seems type F has a viscosity index rating of 169. Hy gard is 140 and hy gard low visc is 195. It also seems some guys use the heavier hy gard to tighten up their converter some and the low to loosen one up. Pretty interesting stuff.

Excellent, the low viscosity Hyguard is what I have almost a full drum of. Hopefully it works better in a 727 then it does in a 9520

Some of the big horsepower turbo cars will smoke the regular trans fluid in one pass and some guys used to change it every pass. The Hy-Guard is VERY resistant to heat.

Only bad thing, is that it's hard to see on the stick. Easily fixed by adding some color dye. I won't say who, but will say that SEVERAL of the trick "race fluids" are simply Hy-Guard with dye. How do I know? Because I have seen them pump it from 55 gal drums into their bottles........LOL!!!

Think I'll pick up a gallon of each, the ATF that's in my converter will give enough color to see it on the dip stick.

Agree, while the engine is out I will be making the switch to Hy-gard

I tried it once to see if I could get the
conv to stall higher... it didnt help mine
so I swapped back... but after reading more
info I might have used the wrong one

I have heard for 40 years that B&M Trick Shift is just Type F with blue dye in it.

Hey Monte according to the table, the reg Hygard handles heat better than the lo viscosity one....

Which do you feel would be better in a street /strip application 727 with a decent cooler and with 5K stall ?

Thanks Monty.

I recently bought a converter from PTC, so at the same time I bought their Trans fluid to put in my fresh build 727. Their fluid appears to be some type of hyd fluid also.

You would be right

From a factory race bulletin.

Picked up some Hy-Gard today, the Low Viscosity was $16 per gallon and the regular was $17.50.

Ordered some hy-gard low viscosity last night, $13.55 a gallon jug, so I got three gallons on the way

Damn.......it's an epidemic.....LOL!!! Careful now guys, too much of this and you will have to turn in your "I'm a REAL Mopar guy buttons".......LMFAO!!!!

If you buy 4 drums of it, it will cost around $11 Canadian and they will deliver it to your yard!

Don't worry about losing your Mopar status, John Deere also overcharges to put their name and green paint on stuff so its pretty much the same

Question, I talked to rossler a while ago, he told my about the Hyguard, BUT he told me it might slow the car. (He said the engine should make 1500 or more to use the Hyguard) I tried it and did not really see a change. I use type f as per rossler site. I didn't know it was available in diff viscosity. Maybe I should try the lighter one ?

I have a modern Dakota truck, I'm not considered a real Mopar guy anyway