engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap

so the other day while doing a burnout, i was told it sounds like the engine was misfiring.

looking inside the distributor cap, i see there is a fair amount of carbon scoring, sounds like things are jumping around in there.

it is a mopar electronic distributor with the tan cap, and it is vented, and an MSD system.

how do i go about fixing this? is it just possible that the vent isn't enough and i need to drill some more holes in the cap?

Check the carbon ball on the center.. see if its
there.. a lot of those will tend to disappear and
people dont catch it... the diameter of the dist
is the biggest problem with high output ignitions
and the timing curve where it moves the timing
a fair amount

Vents not the problem. Mopar distributors are poor quality these days. Just installed one in my street rod. Distributor cap button was 1/2 gone?? One advance spring was rubbing on the under side of the advance plate. Pick up magnet was not parallel to the reluctor - about .010 variance top to bottom. Surprisingly, when I spun it up, signal variation was less than 1 degree, so I am using it - but it's a turd. BTW, the curve out of the box is extremely slow - all in at like 4K.

distributor has been recurved, so i'm good there. i come in when i want and get to full advance. reluctor gap is good also.

it may be a turd, but it is usable. i just need to figure out how to fix this.

Just found this problem on a 69 nova I did a carb and other work on. The center for the coil was pretty much gone but still ran poppin and spittin. I drill holes between each tower which helps EXCEPT for when you`re setting your timing and grab the cap...........

I spray my stock style cap out every couple
of months with brake cleaner and wipe it out
good to get rid of the trails.. make sure its
dry(blow it out with air)before you fire it up

aluminum inserts in the cap? try and find a cap with copper inserts....brass is even better for conductivity...

misfire fix???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-Electronic-Ignition-MISFIRE-FIX-Modd-Distributor-Reluctor-440-340-Hemi-/322031143791?hash=item4afa8d4b6f:g:xqUAAOSwBahVGW~j&vxp=mtr

OEM Mopar Modified Distributor Reluctor Stops Misfires!
Gennie Mopar, modified to cure a common problem! Read on....

Smallblock, Big Block, and Hemi owners - listen up! If you've got either an OEM Mopar electronic distributor, or a MP aluminum distributor, here's a cure for that all-too-common, hard-to-diagnose, misfire problem! This can be intermittent, and cause you to drink (or, drink more, as the case may be.)

Frequently, due to a myriad of problems, your distributor rotor tip is NOT POSITIONED SQUARELY UNDER THE CAP LUG (terminal) when firing takes place! Result: an intermittent misfire that can drive you nuts; no amount of external fiddling can fix this. The cure is re-phasing the reluctor on the shaft, so that when the plug fires at, say, 35 degrees BTDC, the cap terminal is aligned with the rotor tip. This is accomplished by re-indexing the reluctor, which requires a reworked reluctor with additional locating slots. And E-berg's got one for you, CNC precision machined, complete with detailed instructions.

NAPA # M020 for cap with brass inserts. #M013 for rotor

vent holes. copper terminals. adj phasing so the arc swing is equidistant with dead center on the terminal if using vac adv and that is the only system that changes phasing in operation & in a killer setup I'd actually like to have the terminals (their operating arc) the closest at WOT (no vac) when the required voltage is the greatest) but with the gap reduced having the arc distance centered is OK & far better than it was prior. Burning comes from high resistance which is not the issue in a dist cap (one that ain't carboned up) and the other is gap which is always present in a dist cap by its' design but minimize it by reducing the rotor blade tip to cap terminal clearance to .015" (best). NAPA has an Echlin rotor MO3000 with a .060" longer blade for $8 & change out the door (NAPA ain't never cheap) or make your own (better cuz you can get the gap just right). As said the center button & I like a light smear of dielectric grease on top of the rotor blade where it will contact the center button

I bought one a few days ago. The instructions recommend drilling a hole in your "spare" cap ( just below #1 tower) and shining your timing light in there to verify rotor position re the #1 terminal. Vacuum disconnected and full advance - 3K or above. I will try it this morning. Reluctor looks like a quality piece.

This fix, does it work on MSD dist with locked timing


Steve

For "Rotor Phasing" only vac adv alters the rotor position when running (IE a 11 deg (stamped on arm) can will shift the rotor 11 (dist) degrees around the cap terminal circumference arc. I would drill the (1/2") hole on the cap on top in between the center terminal and the #1 terminal then shine the light on it & you'll see it in action. The can shifts it CCW on a SB and CW on a BB. easiest cure (if needed) is to widen the slot in the top dist metal shaft where the rotor locks into then JBweld the opposite wall to restore the width back to where it was for a snug fit on the rotor so you can shift the rotor around however much is needed.

No. Mechanical advance does have an effect on rotor phasing. Any advance be it mechanical or vacuum changes rotor phasing.
I think you are mixing rotor to reluctor phasing. The post is about cap to rotor phasing.
You want the cap to be phased perfectly at peak tq rpm with 100% load. To test you must simulate low manifold vacuum(if you have a vacuum advance or load sensing ignition.)
The less load, the less important rotor phasing becomes.

I respectfully stand by what I posted. Lets do this: drill the 1/2" hole in dist cap flat top 2/3 of the way between the center terminal and #1 terminal and cap off the vac adv. with your light ready, start it/rev it up & see if the rotor moves.

If the rotor doesn't move when doing what you describe, the distributor is locked. The reluctor and rotor are mounted on one piece, AFTER the mechanical advance. If the rotor doesn't move, you have no centrifugal advance.

If we were closer I'd make a (cash) bet! Alright, since I'm making the statement I will go out tomorrow & recheck

No problem... I accept paypal
Seriously though. If you look at how the mopar distributor is made, if the weights are giving you advance, then the rotor has to move. It should move half of what the timing on the balancer indicates.

I'll tell ya what bro, since I'm feeling frisky today lets make a 10 dollar bet on this! I do PP too & I will (even) include the 3% (if it comes to that). And the bet will be (& correct me if I need to change the wording). "a non locked out "regular" type dist, if you cap the can, the rotor phasing position will be the same at idle as it will at 3 or 4K RPM". And we are assuming that at 3 or 4K it WILL be into the springs. Feeling gutsy! EDIT in other words the rotor will be pointing to the same position in relation to the cap terminal, the rotor will NOT move when you "freeze" it with the timing light

You can only say it wont move on a non locked
dist IF its already advance at idle.. the weights
would have already moved giving the advance... this
would be with weak springs.. at 3 or 4K it had better
be up on the advance.. a totally stock one would be

Mr P, I say it wont move even if the dist is into the weights at idle. That is: if you "freeze" the rotor position with your timing light with the can capped (& that is what the rotor phasing position is) that it will NEVER move from that position no matter what". Would you like to get (further) in on this (only $10 entry fee)!

unplug the can

yes this is with the hose off of the can/hose plugged so that we are only dealing with mech adv (slots/springs). Are you in brother!

Sure.. if you want to start at idle and work
up to 3k-4k... I will bet the timing changes..
the vac pot is open.. you will have the mech
advance for what ever its valued at... this is
of course it isnt already advanced by time its
idling.. do you know what the curve is(when the
timing is maxed out.. RPM).. let me know these
couple of factors

Gambling over state lines? Well, technically it's not gambling if its a sure thing... more like paying your tuition.
Seriously though, put a little thought into it. You don't have to bet on a losing hand.
For those that can accept it, here is a neat video on the purposes of needing rotor phasing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWMlNwGW0tM

OK Rotor Phasing: position of rotor tip at cap terminal with it "frozen" in place with the timing light like a strobe light would do to people on a dance floor which is what the rotor tip/cap terminal relationship is when the eng fires. Vac can hose removed and hose capped (dont wanna vac leak). The can metal nipple capped or not capped or even the can removed as we are talking only if mech adv changes RP. I say it does NOT, not from idle to any RPM whether or not you DO or DO NOT have mech adv at idle (& yes at 4K you certainly will have adv in an unlocked "regular" dist. Any takers? Please! & I definitely will pay if I lose! EDIT It ain't gambling, it is "paid" edumacation (Moparts style). MORE EDIT yes the timing will change when the weights/springs move in the slots but the RP position will NOT change

AGAIN.. I will ask what your curve is.. is the
advance already in by idle.. and what the hell
is frozen in place... to me your saying its locked
because if you can turn the rotor with the engine
off then it has advance

Any curve (any springs/any slot length) whatever mech curve you have, the RP position will not change no matter how much or how little adv you have at any given RPM. "Frozen in place" I was referring definitely not to adv weights but to the timing light in effect "freezing" the rotor in its position in the hole you would drill in the dist cap. In other words the rotor ain't gonna move.

I have an old SUN distributor machine at work. I guess I could make a short video. I will have to see if I have any distributors.
Better yet, send me your distributor. I can:
A. show you how it works, or...
B. fix it so it does work.
No charge!
Have you ever put a light on the balancer? What is your idle advance compared to your 3000 rpm advance? No vacuum.
If you have advance, your rotor IS moving. That's not to say it will be out of phase, just that it is not in a "fixed" position.

Your on.. I say the rotor will move as the RPM
increases... a 10 spot.. the wife has paypal
so you can sent it

Thank you Mr P body! we're on brother! Tomorrow I will take a cap that already has the hole drilled in the top and I will install it & hookup the light and pull the hose and plug the hose & leave the can nipple open/as is and I will see if the rotor phasing moves at anytime. this is the dist in my 318 truck & it for sure has weights/slots & I will check from idle to ~4K so as to definitely be into the mech adv curve (slots/weights/springs). Trendz, you wanna in on this? My PP email is: rapidrobert at intergate dot com Just so we're clear, absolutely the timing will advance but we're talking "rotor phasing" & the RP positioning will not change. If it is pointed dead centered on the cap terminal (or slightly ahead or behind) now it will remain that way with the can out of the picture AND haveing a functioning springs/weights/slots advance system which is our point of contention.

Lookie here. Explain how the ignition timing can change without the rotor moving in a working mopar distributor with centrifugal advance.

I've done this on my dist machine before.. the
rotor has to move since its advancing timing

Trendz are you in! for real now ($10). Lets get the bets placed then we can get into the details on why it will or wont work. EDIT Mr P body, the rotor phasing (rotor tip to cap terminal alignment) does not change from the weights advancing the timing. MORE EDIT Trendz yes the rotor tip moves in a circle but the rotor tip to cap terminal alignment (rotor phasing) does not change no matter how much or how little mech adv there is at any given RPM. No mas, place your bet

Poker. You are bluffing. Just admit that you are wrong. It's the best thing for you. The next step here is an "up the ante" and that wont work out well for you.
Did you look at the picture? I'm GIVING you mercy. All I want here is for you to put "TRENDZ teaches truth" in your sig. No bet, but I'll gift you $100.00 if I'm wrong.

Crickets....

Lets do this: all (3) of us will tomorrow toss on a dist cap that has a hole drilled in the top or the side onto our non locked out dist then pull the vac can hose off & cap the hose & hookup the timing light then start & idle it & rev it & the rotor (tip) phasing seen in the dist hole will not change (I say). if it does change I will post what you ask. If it does not change then gift me $10 which is the same donation Mr P body is going to make (my conscience would bother me if I took a hundred)!. Are we on?

I'm in... I'll be happy to take the money...
I've played this game before(not as a bet but on
my dist machine)
EDIT
I wish I hadnt sold that dist machine.. I would
have put a dist on it with a camera/video to show
you that it HAS to move to have advancement

The rotors tip is about a 1/4" wide, why, because it does indeed rotate, but needs to be that wide because the spark event will occur between that rotational spectrum, based on mechanical and vacuum advance.

Keep me out of the bets.

I havent read all this, its late, im tired. This is the concise answer that jumps out to me. Think about a driveshaft phasing. Thats a locked phase. Advance curve means isnt a locked phase.

Correct, the rotor/reluctor which are fixed to each other HAVE to move to get the tooth closer to the magnet so it will fire earlier for mech advance but this may convince you without a live eng test tomorrow: I just went out in the kitchen & held a dist upright & held the lower shaft immobile then turned the housing slightly till the magnet was lined up with a tooth and noted where the rotor pointed on the housing perimeter (which'll be the cap terminal location) then I turned the (SB) housing a bit CW which put the tooth a bit CCW from the magnet, then holding everything (lower shaft/housing) still, I grabbed the reluctor & turned it CW against the springs till the tooth lined back up with the magnet which would be when it would fire which is earlier (advanced) & lo and behold now with the tooth lined up with the magnet in this advanced position the rotor (rotor phasing) is in the same position on the housing perimeter/cap terminal location where it was before which is what you guys will see tomorrow when you do it on the car with a drilled cap/timing light like I have seen/done before several times (on eng with drilled cap/timing light) and I am going to do it again just to hold up my end of this threesome bargain. it's all over but the cryin! sleep tight dont let the bedbugs bite & we'll check back in tomorrow evening/later on in the day. RR

wow, look what i started! i should get a share of the booty just for getting all this going!

i looked at my rotor, and there was only one spot of discoloration, all the way on one end. with the cap off and the distributor in the engine, i set the timing at 32 on the damper, firing for cylinder no 1, and then moved the rotor to full mechanical advance. sure enough, the side with the discoloration was not in line with the terminal post.

i removed the distributor and was going to remove the reluctor, and noticed there was no roll pin. the reluctor was fairly tight on the shaft though, but who knows if it moved out of place. i have one of the modified reluctors with multiple slots, and found the one that positioned the reluctor, and so the rotor, a bit more in the direction to bring it closed to the terminal post.

put it back together, fired it up, timed it, but it was raining out, so i didn't get a chance to play with it.

i still have to take the cap and drill a hole and see if it really is where i want it, or if i have to move it again, but i think i'm good to go in that respect. whether the cap needs more ventilation, i'll try that if i still have problems.

(1) No habla Englesh (2) at 32/reluctor held against springs if you then turned the housing so the magnet lined up with the tooth the rotor discoloration location would be lined back up (if you are on the same reluctor roll pin hole). (3) yes you need the roll pin, maybe it dropped down in there. (4) Please do the test with the 1/2" hole in the cap for rotor roll pin selection and for backup for me (uncap the can & see that it does not move as you rev it). if you have a vac pump you can pump up half of the vac can arms' travel and select the roll pin hole that will center the rotor on the cap terminal.

After going to bed and thinking this through, I concede. You are correct. The timing light will only be triggered by the pickup which is effectively locked to the rotor.
Although the rotor is moving forward in relation to the engine, it is not moving from its point of reference, the pickup, unless influenced externally by retards, etc...
Thanks for the edumacation.
signed RED IN THE FACE

As I stated last night.. the rotor will change
.. I dont care if he can see it with the light..
its only gonna move about 8*(16* at the crank)

Trendz, its sounds like we're good. My PP addy is rapidrobert at intergate dot com A $10 gift is fine (I wont accept the 100 you offered as I am just too nice of a guy). I was for sure not looking forward to putting "Trendz Teaches Truth" in my sig! One down one to go. Now Mr P is a very tech savvy sharp guy from his posts I have perused especially on carburetion but he is also stubborn and opinionated (also from his posts that I have perused) & he's gonna take (alot) more convincing, OK Mr P lets cut to the chase & you put on a cap with the 1/2" hole and grab your light & we'll see if the rotor position (phasing) changes when you rev it (can capped of course).

The rotor will change position in relation to
the cap.. your light will still make it look
steady BUT look at it in relation to the cap..
the rotor will have moved

Our bet/my position/our point of contention is: only VA will change RP, the mech adv curve will not change it. Shining the light in there shows that the rotor tip clocking around the arc does not change in relation to the cap which means the RP ain't being altered by the mech curve. The rotor does NOT move, it stays in that same relative position to the cap terminal which is the very definition of RP. Give it some thought & I'm gonna get out & get some work done, we'll get together later this eve. RR

if the rotor doesn't move than the timing can't move either.

seems, the pic that trendz posted earlier of the mech adv assembly shows how it all works. that assembly (which the rotor is affixed to) rotates around to advance the timing. the length of the slots limits how far it can move and the springs limit how fast/easily it can move.
the rotor must move in relation to the cap terminal or else your timing can't move...because the cap is definitely not moving once you tighten it down.

so does the reluctor move or does the rotor move to advance timing??

Jeeesh!! What the hell happened to is thread??? I read some of it, so - let me put it to rest. THE ROTOR MOVES WIH THE ADVANCE. I watched it through the 1/2" hole I drilled next to terminal #1 ( with a timing light ) on my cap. Keep in mind, it's only about a 12 degree movement at the distributor = 12 + 12 at the crank + initial timing of 12 -14 = 36 total. The Mopar distributor as I bought it, was way out of phase ( rotor to cap relationship ). I was able to correct it with the multi slotted reluctor I bought. The 15 degree advance slot put it on the money. So, at full mechanical advance the rotor lines up perfectly with the cap terminal. This is what you want because that is when the engine load is usually the greatest. At idle, the rotor is slightly misaligned with the cap terminal due to the advance thing), but who cares at idle. I was surprised to see it that far off and I would advise anyone that uses this distributor to sacrifice a cap and run the test. I suppose you could re-index the cap to get the same results, but the multi slotted reluctor I purchased worked great to fix this problem. I might add that all caps aren't created equal. I have one cap that shows a solid burn across the entire brass terminal and I have another cap ( from NAPA ( brass terminals and looks identical to the cap that came with the dist. that shows a burn that covers only 1/2 of the brass terminals. As I said some where in this thread, "this distributor was a turd".

I originally posted that only vac adv will change rotor phasing. RP is how close or far away the rotor tip is from the cap terminal when it fires. this is what you see/check with the timing light in the drilled hole in the dist cap. Crizila if your rotor is moving then you have the can hooked up. If you pull the hose and plug it then the rotor tip you see with the timing light will NOT move when you rev it, which is my position that only vac adv and not mech adv will alter RP. We got off on a tangent didn't we! I rarely get into these dogfights (I learned my lesson way back with the other double R) but I made a statement & they said I was mistaken so I had to defend my position! Krautrock, yes of course the rotor/reluctor/shaft all of it is moving but we are speaking of RP only (& what does and does not alter it) and vac adv will swing it thru an arc (a 11 deg can will effect a 11 deg arc that you will see in the hole in the dist cap and a good way to center that arc on the center of the cap terminal is the reluctor with the multiple roll pin holes (drill you own, I did)

Well I gather you did do the test today...
otherwise you would have seen it moves in
relationship to the cap
EDIT
I was gonna run the test today.. I just fired
up my Rampage so I was gonna do the test.. but
I only have 1 dist that will advance and its a
adjustable thats locked out.. I was gonna change
it but I dont have any heavier type springs.. the
ones in it would be full advanced by idle rpm which
is what I use to use in my other engine.. but this
engine is injected and likes the locked out dist so
the computer does the rest.. I'll look a bit more
tomorrow to see if I have a decent dist.. if I do I
will pull the one in the Rampage and video the test..
I was gonna start it with the timing light on it and
mark the back edge of the rotor as seen by the light..
then start increasing the rpm.. the whole time with the
light on it.... wish I hadnt sold my dist machine
it would have been much easier to video on it

At any rate, I have another cap that I want to use ( permanently - reads in bad weather ), so I think I am going to drill it by #1 tower to make sure it index's properly, and then make a clear Plexiglas circle that I can silicone over my viewing hole. Any thoughts on that? When you buy a new cap, drilling it is the only way to know for sure that it is indexed properly. I will put up a pic when I do this. I finally got my SB to run 1/2 decent under load. Part of the problem was the 15 degree off on the index. Other part was I live at 5000 ft above sea level. Stock primary jetting for my 3310 was #72 jets. Ended up with #67's. Time for a nap!!!

P I did not do the test when I posted above as I just popped in for a bite to eat but I went right back out & did it first thing and with the hose off/capped I revved it & no phasing change (& I did twist the rotor to make sure I had advance) then I plugged back in the can & it moved it & I revved it & no further movement ex for what the can initially provided when I plugged it in. I repeated several times just to be 100% on this even tho I have done it many times before.

ok so what moves to make the mechanical advance work?

If it didnt move your mech advance was already
in (advanced)... it will move if the mech is
still retarted.. this is FACT
EDIT
By the way.. I bought my dist machine out of
the dist lab at Chrysler.. where I worked for
1 year before I moved to the fuel lab.. I did
this test a lot and magically it moved each time
unless it was already advanced.. but the nice
thing about using a dist machine is you can start
out at zero rpm and work up to 4000 (dist rpm)to
see the total advancement on the mech.. then apply
the vac for total

it seems logical that since the rotor to reluctor clocking is fixed (unless you alter it with the reluctor with the multiple holes) then when the reluctor teeth are moved closer to the magnet (being advanced by the springs) so it will fire earlier then how could that not move the rotor (which is locked to the reluctor) the same # of degrees closer or away (as the case may be) from the cap terminal (rotor phasing). I would suggest wrap a shop towell around the dist lower shaft to protect it then clamp it reasonably snug in your vise straight up vertical then go back to one of my earlier posts & work with that procedure & you'll see. its like in a SB CW rotation dist, the springs/slots/weights let the reluctor rotate CW so a tooth reaches the magnet maybe 10 deg sooner (advanced) AND the rotor (which moves with it) is also rotated 10 deg CW so the rotor ends up exactly in the same position relative to the cap (same phasing). EDIT Krautrock this was for you. P, I thought for a second I had you convinced! When can you do the test (no need for a video). I did my part. PS Trendz manned up & paid the bet, I'm waiting on you

Believe me, I had a hard time with this also. My own argument is what convinced me. Look at the picture of the distributor. The rotor and reluctor are locked together. This by itself means that the trigger and rotor will always be "in sync" with each other.(as long as there are no external retards)
Since they are mechanically locked together, and the pickup coil and distributor housing are basically fixed in place.(assuming no vacuum advance moving the plate) Then the only thing that can happen is they will all stay in sync with each other.
Now what does happen, is everything below the plate moves to a retarded position. (When viewed from the ignition pickup's point of reference)
What is important is the point of reference.

Yes they are in sync with each other... but as the weights
move outthe advance starts.. this is the part that if
you have the engine off you can twist the rotor.. thats
the mech advance.. now when the engine is running it will
always LOOK in sync.. but put a pencil line on the cap
and start advancing it.. what occurs.. the rotor moves
BUT still looks in sync

If I can find some springs in a day or so I will run it
for you and video it and post it.. its all about the
relationship to the cap.. why do you think they call it
mech advance... the light is always in sync with the rotor
but not if you put a line on the cap
EDIT
why would the top twist is it wasnt gonna move

the rotor phasing does not change with mech adv/RPM and that (only) was our point of contention. with a functioning mech adv system (slots/weights/springs) with the vac can capped: if the rotor is pointing dead on at the center of a cap terminal at any RPM which is the RP then any amt of RPM/mech adv change will not change the RP (it'll still be dead on) or a bit behind or ahead whichever you started with). this is the hardest ten bucks I've ever earned in my life! (& I ain't collected yet). EDIT P yes make sure your mech springs are functioning & drill the hole in the cap as this is ONLY about if the rotor moves or does not move with the light on it as you rev it & get into the springs (advance)

Your right.. its not worth the added talking
at the moment.. I'll find the stuff.. I'm sure
I still have some dist junk around.. I'll video
the test so all can see... I wonder why they call
it mech advance

i'm with Pbody on this, when you adjust initial you move the dist. housing and the rotor stays in the same spot.
with the mech advance the rotor must move in relation to the dist cap or you can't actually have advance.

not sure why you can see it with the vacuum and not with the mech advance. must have something to do with the pickup coil trigger the timing light...

ps, wish i had an extra dist. here to look at but i gave it to my brother to use and i'm not bothering with pulling one off a vehicle

I remember how we tested this in the lab.. we
set a strobe light up at the same frequency as
the dist was turning in the machine.. it was
rock solid.. then as the rpm went up you could
see the rotor move.. then turn up the strobe
frequency to find that rpm and verify the dist
machine rpm... then we would verify the angle of
advance.. we had to do this on each engine group

Maybe the mech and vac together moves enough so he can see it, but just not with only the mech

A distrubutor machine is neat to use. I was going to snag one, but i finally decided tech was moving away from this stuff fast enough it wasnt worth it. Better to put the money into efi, comp controlled timing.

my head hurts. i'm old. who do i send $10 to ?

ME!!!

KR are you in, ($10 entry fee)!

I have a dist machine, but I have no Chrysler distributors. Send me an old distributor and I will make a video. RapidRobert is right... And I was the first to dispute him.
Anything that happens BEFORE the pickup is irrelevant.

I'm still trying to find at least one somewhat heavier
spring... if I can find something I'll send you a dist
EDIT
since you have a dist machine the light springs will
be fine.. just put a line on the cap for the reference
point.. let me put this back together... send me you
address in a PM

My peep-in cap for checking rotor to cap indexing.

I only have a vent in the ones I run... I found
a dist today and put it together and will ship
it to Rick so he can run it on his dist machine

P body it is time to settle up. Lets do this if you would please, take the dist before you ship it & clamp the lower shaft in your vise with a rag to protect the shaft of course & turn the housing till the magnet is lined up with a tooth and note the rotor position relation to the cap (which is the RP clocking) this is RP with no mech advance. now turn the housing just a bit CW so the tooth is now a bit to the left (CCW) of the magnet & this is/will be the tooth approaching the magnet in normal CW rotation. Now hold the housing rock steady still then twist the rotor CW (which is giving it mech advance) till the tooth is lined up with the magnet (like before) which'll be when it fires which is what you will see/be at with the light and the rotor will be in the same clocked position on the housing/cap terminal as it was before you twisted (advanced) the reluctor/rotor.

Thats the thing.. it will move BUT its not gonna move much..
and as you said.. the light will still show the rotor..
but if you mark the cap and start increasing the rpm..
the mech advance starts to move the rotor... the light
still flashes at the rotor.. but the rotor moved in
relationship to the mark on the cap... like I say.. the
slots in the advance plate only gives about 16* of advance
at the crank... 8* on the dist(or what ever the
advance plate is set up for)

It sounds like we gotta wait till you can put a cap with the drilled hole on a running eng & with the light on it see if it (the RP) changes. I've never used a dist machine but I'm sure it would show the same thing. Maybe this will help: say the rotor is dead centered on the cap terminal at rest (no mech adv). the other cap terminal is 45 deg away, now if a can with 11 stamped on it swung the rotor around the arc 11 deg (& it will) and say the mech adv added 24 at the crank (which is reasonable/feasible) with reasonable slot lengths which'd be 12 at the rotor, if the mech adv did alter RP (it wont but lets say it will) the rotor will have moved a total of 23 deg (11+12) & there'd be no way it could fire with that great of a distance between rotor tip and cap terminal as that is half the circumferential distance between the cap terminals. Humor me if you will! try the test in the vise. I agree it makes NO sense that since the reluctor moves with adv (& it does) then how could the rotor which is locked to it set in stone NOT move also. it is hard to visually grasp & I could not mentally grab the how it did what it does till this issue came & I went out into the kitchen & grabbed a dist to try to prove my case even tho I've seen it multiple times when doing dist work on vehicles so I know it to be true but unlike Trendz I could not mentally grasp exactly HOW until this. Just Take 5 minutes with your vise or just held in your hands. Hurry, lunch is in an hour and a half & I wanna order a steak (your treat)!

I know what your saying.. like you said.. in a
vise and you twist the upper section the rotor
turns.. thats the mech advance

If the rotor doesnt reach the terminal sooner, how does the timing advance?

It does it by retarding the engine.

Rabid Robert If you are stating the rotor phase doesn't change in relationship to the cap during mechanical advance, youd be wrong.

Further there are 2'Two' different movements going on to advance the timing at the distributer.

The first is the mechanical advance it rotates the rotor and trigger/points cam forward to cause the spark sooner. This distance is about 3/16s of a inch. Since the rotors tip is a 1/4 inch all is good.

Two now the vacuum advance, the rotor cant turn anymore as you stated, the vacuum can now rotates the pickup/points base towards the can further increasing timing Without further rotating the rotor. That's how you get get the combined amount advance degrees without rotating the rotor to far out of reach of the Caps pickup terminal. That's about a 1/4 of inch in with also.

I think you need to put that distributer back in the vise and do some more studying.

Oh, and some refunds are going to be due.

Or Maybe Im having a Hellen Keller moment, but I don't think so.

Another fish on the hook!
Don't take the bait!

The pickup is mounted to a base plate. The trigger star wheel is fixed with the rotor. The mechanical advance Rotates the rotor and its Trigger wheel in reference to the stationary pickup, thus altering the timing.

Then the vacuum advance can rotates the pick up plate in relationship to the rotor and its trigger wheel further advancing timing.


Maybe you need another nights sleep to further think this through.


If Im wrong, I only have two posts showing it. Boy , if Roberts wrong, hes got like 4 pages of Wrong.

Alright. Let me do something funny here...
RUN down the hallway of your house into a room.
Turn on the light switch. Did the light come on instantly?
Now, WALK down the hallway. Turn on the light. Did the light still come on instantly, or did it come on before you flipped the switch? Or a little after the switch?
Really, what happened before you flipped the switch is irrelevant to the light. The mechanical advance happens before the pick up.
The pick up coil IS the switch. It will "turn on the light" at the same distributor position every time.
Do we all agree that the rotor is locked to the reluctor? YES
Is the pick up "fixed" in place with no vacuum advance? YES
Then what you really need to accept(like me) that it will always trigger in the same distributor position.

Sure... IF you dont use a reference mark on
the cap and you are using a timing light...
the light will fire at the same time as the
rotor all the time.. but then look at the reference
mark on the cap... whats the use of having the slots
and springs with a movable timing plate.. I guess
they could have made it solid

The rotor Is locked to the reluctor/trigger. YES
But its relationship to its pickup Does Change with the mechanical advance.

The pickup is Fixed on a plate, But that [plate Is moved by the Vacuum advance. So No on that second statement. That plate with the pickup is indeed moved in relationship to the reluctor.

Lights are being turned on at different timing events for sure, as we see.

Further Robert made a mistake with his numbers. Hes stacking the mechanical advance with the vacuum advance to show the Rotor rotates that combined amount of degrees away from the caps pickup terminal. This says, hes missing it.

That's incorrect the Rotor and reluctor only rotates away from the cap terminal and the pickup by the Mechanical rotational advance. Witch would be 10 degrees at the cap or 20 degrees at the crank on a 20 degree mechanical advance distributer. The Vacuum advance only moves the pickup plate in the opposate direction of the rotors movement not Effecting the rotors position to the cap but indeed Further effecting the relationship between the pickup and the reluctor

The "advance" we speak of is using the engine as a point of reference.
The problem is, we are now using the distributor as a point of reference. So if it's true that the engine advances the distributor, then, isn't it also true that the distributor retards the engine?
The link between the upper distributor and the engine is the mechanical advance. This link is what changes the relationship between the engine and upper distributor. The upper distributor stays constant with itself, but not the engine.

Centrifugal force is doing the advancing based on
weights at rpm

Previous posts and even my quote here take the vacuum advance out of the equation by disabling it. So lets change your answer to YES.
We all agree that the vacuum advance will change rotor phasing.
Please explain how the rotor can be in a different position if the rotor is locked to the reluctor, and the trigger happens when that reluctor passes a fixed place pickup.

[quote=TRENDZ]Alright
The pick up coil IS the switch. It will "turn on the light" at the same distributor position every time.


This is the key right here. Got to think about this some more.

Can see where when the Two meet up reluctor/pickup that they will energize at the same spot in relationship to one another, everytime, Like Dead inline.

I can agree with that. Dead inline, bang we have fire at the Same spot. Say at 0 degrees on a 360 degree circle of the cap.

Now lets put the distributer at 350 degrees, or 10 degrees before the next alignment. Add 10 degrees for the mechanical advance rotation of the rotor and reluctor and we have another perfect alignment for a energize. Sure the reluctor and pickup are now energizing at the same exact alignment , but guess what. The rotor is now 10 degrees rotational different from the cap.

The rotor is indeed 10 degrees advanced from where it was before compared to the cap , but yet the relctor/pickup alignment is the same.

I can see why this is hard to get the head around.

So

Yeah I'm old and I'm sure I forgot plenty over
the years... but WHY have a plate that MOVES..
sure could have been a cost savings to dump the
weights and springs along with a separate top
timing plate... you can twist the rotor.. correct..
WHY.. to have mech advance... its a relationship to
the rotor and cap.. yes it still fires at the same
point in relationship of the reluctor and the rotor
when using the timing light..but NOT in relationship
to the cap... put a reference mark on the cap
EDIT
why is it that when the mech timing comes in
it changes the crank timing... nothing moved

can someone define what rotor phasing is?
and see the quote from RR that i quoted in this quote (so meta)

I will definitely mark the cap as you suggest. I think this video may be a blockbuster!
When the mechanical timing comes in, it is delaying the link between the upper distributor, and the engine.

See my link to youtube in earlier post to define rotor phasing.

The point when the reluctor and rotor tip and
the cap are working together.. if you notice
the reluctor wheel has 2 roll pin slots.. they
are not 180* from each other.. in most cases you
can turn the wheel 180* and help the phasing..
in a Chrysler dist they put those 2 slots in it
to cover up any mis match in the tolerance machining
and one or the other slot would correct it

Now lets put the distributer at 350 degrees, or 10 degrees before the next alignment. Add 10 degrees for the mechanical advance rotation of the rotor and reluctor and we have another perfect alignment for a energize. Sure the reluctor and pickup are now energizing at the same exact alignment , but guess what. The rotor is now 10 degrees rotational different from the cap.

The rotor is indeed 10 degrees advanced from where it was before compared to the cap , but yet the relctor/pickup alignment is the same.

I can see why this is hard to get the head around.

So [/quote]
This is where you go wrong. If the reluctor is 10 degrees before the alignment, and the shaft is spinning fast enough to already have the advance working, that means in 10 more (shaft already advanced) degrees it will fire in the same spot as it does without the shaft advanced. The advance happens before the reluctor. The rotor will end up at the same spot as the trigger point every time.

Yeah I'm starting to get a bit Rapid, in fact I might have to just get a job (it'd be easier). Sport440 do you want in, ($10 entry fee). OK My original statement was that only vac adv and not mechanical adv changes RP & RP is how close the rotor tip is to a cap terminal when it fires & we check this with a timing light in a 1/2" drilled hole in the cap. I've observed this a dozen times when working on peoples' dists and the other day I went out & did it again cuz me & mr P body and Trendz were all three supposed to do it. Trendz seen the light (in his head) without popping the hood. I'm waiting on Mr P body. If YOU do the test (vac capped) & it moves then yes refunds/apologies are definitely due & I am a man of my word. DO the test & report back. Do the test & report back. PLEASE! drill the hole/cap the can/hookup light/rev it up/see what the rotor (RP) does/holler back. does it move or does it stay still, that the only Q at hand. Sport440 get in on this before you do the test. (I missed my steak today)

Like I said I am sending out a dist to Trendz
(Rick) most likely tomorrow and he is gonna
do the test on his dist machine and video it..
with a reference mark on the cap to show the
change with rpm... I would have sent it out
today but I never made it into town

Correct, the reluctor tooth reaches the magnet sooner cuz the weights/springs/slots are rotating the reluctor forward (in relation to the dist lower shaft) (CW in a SB) so it reaches the magnet sooner and when it does (sooner) the rotor tip (RP) will be in the same position. hold it in your hand or clamp it in a vise & you'll see (I just did it again in the kitchen). It IS a strange deal cuz it dont make sense, take 5 minutes and you'll see. EDIT Mr P I just saw your last post, we're good, I'll hang loose bro. RR. MORE EDIT, to me its kind of like an illusion or magic trick that does not make sense till you grab a dist & try it (I never woulda figured out the how and why of it till this came up but that's a good thing).

If the reluctor and the rotor are mounted to the same plate/shaft, the one advanced by the weights/springs, how can the rotor position not change in relation to the cap when the mechanical advance kicks in?

Im currently hundreds of miles from home with nothing to go pull out first hand. Maybe i can find a schematic online someplace.

when you can, grab a dist in your hand or lock it in a vise. OR drill the hole in the cap/unhook the can/hookup light/run the RPM up/see what you see/holler back with what you see

Are you saying the pickup is what is moved in relation to the shaft, not the other way?


It will be months before i will be back home.

No, only vac adv moves the magnet (pickup). We are speaking only of mech adv so the magnet for our purposes is fixed (we are capping the can). mech adv twists the reluctor/rotor CW so that the tooth will reach the magnet sooner (mech advance) and when it does the rotor will be at the same clocking (RP) on the cap which does not make sense. I'd wait for someone to post a video. I knew from my work that mech adv did not change RP but I did not know why/how until I put a dist in my hands. its like a magic trick, you'll see when you get there & I would not have been able to grasp it mentally/figure it out WO having the dist in front of me to work with to defend my statement/position.

If you grab a distributor, you cannot turn the rotor and the drive gear or reluctor independently of each other. they are on the same shaft. The rotor appears to move in the timing light/hole-in-the-cap test because the only time you see the rotor is when the light fires(strobe). The light fires at different times because the timing is changing.
Hook up a mighty-vac to the vacuum can and pull, the plate moves the pickup relative to the rotor and reluctor. This is moving the same plate that the mechanical advance moves.
Reluctor phasing is important because the point where it triggers the pickup has to be when the rotor is in-line with the contacts on the cap.
If the rotor is truly changing position, it's because the drive gear is riding up, out of the oil pump as rpm increases.
What am I missing here?

Ok, I got it now too. Using my example of being at a 350* mark it doesn't matter if the engine rotates the rotor/reluctor 10 more degrees or the mechanical advance does it. It will line up at the same exact phase with the cap and pickup. Boy, why was that so hard to understand.

Now, vacuum advance, that's a different story. Need to look into that next.

So, I was wrong, before. But understand it now.

No. The mechanical advance is handled by the shaft. The vacuum advance is added by moving the plate. They are additive.

That's what my understanding has been for decades. Im not seeing any way else the timing can advance.

I totally understand & I could not have grasped it either (in my mind) until I put a dist in front of me, cuz logic says: if the mech adv moves the reluctor and the reluctor and the rotor are locked together (& they definitely are) then how could the mech adv shifting the reluctor so the light fires earlier (advanced) NOT shift the rotor tip at the same time to where it'd be moved further around the cap terminals when the light fires. it is a magic trick! put a dist in a vise or even in your hand and hold it so the magnet and a tooth are at say 12 o'clock dead even & note the shaft rotor notch position which is 9 o'clock on this one in my hand (rotor tip at 3 0'clock but immaterial to this). Keep the magnet (housing) at 12 0'clock & rotate the tooth CCW several degrees CCW (to the left). then hold the housing and lower shaft immobile & grab the upper shaft/reluctor & twist it CW to the right against the springs till the tooth is back lined up with the magnet & lo and behold the rotor tip (RP) is the same (9 o'clock/no change) with the mech adv maxed out. its a hell of a trick. Mr P body are you with us. After all this I could use a steak today!

What ever Trendz comes up with I will abide by... weather
I'm right or wrong.. I should be sending the dist out
today since I have to go to town

Guy "A" is standing next to guy "B".
Guy "B" takes one step back.
Guy "A" is ahead of guy "B" now, but he never moved.
Guy "A" is the upper distributor.
Guy "B" is the engine.
The mechanical advance is the step backward.

I`ve never even checked rotor phasing on my junk but have been thinking about it for beers, I mean years ............time to check it out. Excellent post...........

Trendz has already confirmed my position. If the only reason you were going to send him a dist was so that he could resolve this, if I may suggest you save your time and shipping money. Thumper I have seen some dizzys with way off RP & a common symptom of that is missing at different vac levels when the can shifts the rotor far enough away from the cap terminal(s) to where the required voltage (to jump that gap) is greater than the available voltage & even getting close to that "limit" stresses the coil. there is also the radial distance which adds to the total gap distance. NAPA has a rotor with a longer blade but you can easily make your own (drill out the rivet) & get the radial gap dead on (.015) then get the circumferential distance (phasing) dead on also. reduce lower shaft end play to .005 with speedway shims or use common 1/2" ID washers & deburr the bevel on one side on the ID/OD made when they are stamped when being mfr'd. Add a side oiler like some of the old points ones had & if you ain't running the vac can you can temporarily add a can & pump it up with a mityvac till the phasing is dead on then drill down vertical into the two plates & lock them in that position with a mini bolt/nut with a spacer inbetween the two plates so they do not tilt when you tighten the bolt then remove the can or unhook the lever from the plate & just leave it to cover the side hole in the dist.

I run a locked MSD dizzy does it still apply?

Yes. See the link to youtube I posted earlier.

Well I sent the dist out... so it is what it
is.. Rick you will have it Saturday... you can
keep it

Where is this link you posted... what page
EDIT
In that video it SHOWS it advancing.. that dist
only has mech advance.. and in that vid he said
about 25*

for what it's worth, i'm with Mr P on this one. i saw this just when playing with the distributor by hand. as the mechanical advance comes into play, that changes the position of the reluctor, which moves the position of the rotor, which changes the position of the rotor to the terminal in the cap.

why then is the tip of the rotor so wide? if it didn't change in relation to the cap, it wouldn't need to be anywhere near that wide.

anyway, i'm going to drill a hole in my cap to make sure i got the new reluctor in the right position, so i'll made a video of that, if there isn't one posted here already. i won't get to it until late next week, so we'll see.

I just read the whole thread, and am with RapidRobert (and Trendz starting at page 2). The rotor phasing would only change with vacuum advance. Mechanical advance doesn't change the relationship between the reluctor and the rotor, just the relationship between the engine and the rotor.

I have stated all along that the rotor tip will change
in relationship to the cap based on mech advance.. RR
says that mech advance will not change the location of
the rotor to the cap... that video CLEARLY shows it does

i agree, plain as day in that video.

I think everyone is assuming mechanical advance is doing what you see in the video. Some of it could be the multi spark to single spark crossover at ~3000 rpm, and whatever timing curve they have programmed into their box.

MSD's own rotor phasing instructions make no reference to mechanical advance at all, only vacuum changing the rotor phasing.

http://08961cd535df487cd1c1-bda68e188d86291aa366f725b37d442b.r87.cf1.rackcdn.com/84211_tb.pdf

You can see that the rotor MOVED.. its a mech
advance dist only... multi spark has nothing
to do with making the rotor move

The timing curve programmed in the box would change it, and they are specifically talking about timing being retarded for nitrous use in the video. You both are assuming the mechanical advance is doing it, but there is no evidence to prove or disprove that.

where is the video, I cant find it

Can you see the rotor position has changed...
you tell me how electricity will change the
physical position of the rotor.. that isnt a
optical illusion
EDIT
that video is talking about phasing the rotor
and talks about what COULD happen if the rotor
doesnt line up... and he talks of retarding the
timing in the case f running spray... the title
of the vid was rotor phasing

Mr P I see a gaggle of em on youtube, which one is it?

In Trendz post on one of the first few pages..
I just seen you asked it a couple of post back
sorry didnt see it

thanks bro, let me scroll back & find it. EDIT Found it & he says that if you change timing you need to check/possibly reset RP and he said something about a possible 25 deg arc (RP) change. I looked close but could not see a vac can but the movement of the rotor tells me it is operational. I am going to call him tomorrow (got free LD on my new phone so might as well put it to use). I'll post what he says. I ain't up on the start/retard stuff he mentioned but I'm looking forward to talking with him (Joe Pando)

There isnt any vac pot on it.. I have the
same dist on my W-9.. its their race unit
EDIT
it has a adjustable mech advance plate.. either
use advance or lock it out

The initial advance is set by hand. The rotor phase is set at that baseline. If you twist the dizzy, you are changing the rotor phase. Since we need a spark event sooner as rpm rises, and we cant reach out there and give another twist, the mechanical inside does the job.

Why else would mech advance be there? No way something that elaborate was conceieved and installed in a trillion cars otherwise. The vac advance does the same job, but needed a third way of changing rotor phase based on load.

It doesnt follow the pickup or ecu or anything else is determining when to switch on to give a spark event sooner. That is the only way you could get a spark sooner for the mech portion of the program, if the idea is the rotor phase isnt alerted by the mech advance. Im talking strictly about stock parts here, no multispark, crank triggers, fixed distributors, etc.

From your post, it seems you think rotor phase has an effect on ignition timing. It doesn't, unless you are so far off that it can cross to the next terminal.
The timing is triggered by the pick up.
The pick up is stationary when not in vacuum advance.
The reluctor is fixed to the rotor.
Nothing in the upper half of the distributor changes without vacuum.
Timing change at the ENGINE is caused by the distributor shaft being delayed by the mechanical advance. That is all there is to it.

Your second sentence is not correct. Moving the rotor in relationship to the reluctor ( phasing ) will have an effect on ignition timing. I just did this. Installed a different reluctor ( 15 degrees advanced ) in order to get the rotor to line up with the cap terminals. When I checked the timing, it was advanced 15 degrees. Had to retard the dist. to get the mechanical timing back where it belongs.

All of those sentences are correct. You may be interpreting it wrong.
Moving the reluctor has an effect on timing, but moving the rotor does not.

Yes, it does have an effect. Twist a distributor and tell me if changing where the rotor is in relation to the terminal has an effect.

The rotor's job is to direct the "already timed" spark from the coil to the correct cylinder. It has no inflence on timing.

" interpreting it wrong" is a big part of this thread.

Grab a dist & do my procedure. it'll take 3 minutes (if that). you'll see the "magic". EDIT I just got off of the phone with MSD & he said that in Joes video their retard (nitrous app I'm assuming) box that electronically delays the timing to retard it, the timing does change RP (seen in the pic) & he went on to say that with regular mech adv the RP does not change

X2. If moving the reluctor position makes a difference, moving the shaft it is mounted to has to also make a difference.

This needs to go in the archives next to the pinion angle and 8 and 3/4 posts 😊

That video shows the advancement of the rotor as
the mech advance comes into play.. plane and simple
do you agree

My post was unclear. I see how it could be taken wrong. Criz replaced his reluctor. This will change when the reluctor passes the pick up. So if all that was changed was the reluctor, not moving the distributor housing, he will have changed both engine timing, and fixed rotor position.
My point was more referring to the video. The MSD phasable rotor would make no change in engine ignition timing.

Agreed

P are you sitting down? Hopefully not eating steak! OK the MSD tech said that when they made the video they activated an electronic retard box (mainly for Nitrous he said) which DOES change RP & they did that to show the bennie of their adjustable rotor to change RP as needed (which Joe changed in the pic) which is what we do slightly differently with redrilled reluctor roll pin holes. He did confirm that mechanical adv does NOT change RP

Why do you keep saying RP... is that rotor point
or what... you still dont think that as the mech
advance comes in that the rotor (tip) doesnt
change

Rotor phasing?

Logic doesnt compute on what msd told you. He must think it is locked advance. Hes saying rotor phase with the cap can be alerted with part(s), yet mech advance which moves said parts does not. Cant reconcile those two concepts.

RP, yes rotor phasing, where the rotor (point/tip) is in relation to the cap when it fires, what you see when the light "freezes" it. Yeah that is what the MSD tech said. I know that the rotor (tip) does not change as the mech advance comes in. I've seen it at least 6 times with my dist work & I went out yesterday & rechecked again cuz I had understood that all (3) of us were going to do that so I held up my end of the deal

Well you and I disagree that mech advance will change
the rotor position as the mech advance comes in... and
that video does prove it... I dont care about about
phase due to I would have already done that in the beginning
when I set up my dist... but mech WILL change the position
of the rotor

It does not change with mechanical advance, because all mechanical advance does is change the relationship between the engine and the rotor. The rotor to reluctor relationship does not change, so the rotor phasing doesn't change either.

I figured that video was displaying a timing retard active through an ignition box, glad it was confirmed. It is electronically changing when the coil is commanded vs. the reluctor (and rotor) position.

If it was retarded it would have gone backwards
LESS than what it gained... we will say 10* retard
but yet it still advanced(the rotor position)

Mr P has a dist on its way to me. I will make the video of it on the distributor machine.. It will have a complete ignition system hooked up. Not just the distributor.
Any specific requests on what you guys want checked? I'll cover all requests in the video.

ALL I have said all along is that the rotor WILL
change position as the mech advance comes in.. put
a mark on the cap if needed.. the timing light will
always flash when it comes to the terminal of the
reluctor.. we all agree with that.... but the rotor
position will change in relationship to the cap...
is that simple enough... RR says it wont move
EDIT
I say it will be very much like the video has shown
in the link you posted.. the amount of dergees might
vary but will look similar

O.K. That's what we'll do.
The distributor machine is at work. I'll set it all up Monday. Should have the video up early Monday evening.
Anybody want to post their "stay" or "move" statement? I think the battle is getting stale.

To me it was settled in your video you posted..
but then people would say that its a retard or
some magic... what ever you video I will abide by
right or wrong
EDIT
I spent $30 just to prove my point by to senting
that dist to you... I bought a cheapo cap for
it(part of the $30) to win a $10 bet... which
I wont take anyways... its just the point... again
right or wrong

The rotor and the reluctor are on the same shaft, correct? If that is moved by the mech advance, both move and thus the phase has to change.

Yeah, I'm flip flopping my position. You and Mr. P are right. It will change phasing as the mechanical advance ramps in.

NO NO.... no flipping allowed.... LOL
EDIT
Understand ALL OF THIS is just for knowledge

Blus are you in ($10 entry) Mr P body yes All of this is just for knowledge! Anybody else want in? My 65th birthday is on the 29th & I'll have some extra money to play with/cover bets/rent a hooker/buy a steak, anything I want. Trendz on the video yes I have a request & you know whats comin: install cap with 1/2 hole drilled in it (like the one in the MSD video). hookup timing light. unplug vac adv and cap its hose. "freeze" the rotor at idle & rev it & see what the rotor does. my bet- with mech adv only, the rotor (phasing) will not move.

RR.... are you saying the rotor doesnt move..
with JUST mech advance..is that what you are
saying.. I just want to know for fact what we
are talking

I think that's what he said four pages ago.

I think I'm back to my original position (I'm worse than a politician!!!), but I'll paypal everyone anyway because this is entertaining and got everybody to think. Especially Mike since he mailed out a distributor and Trendz who is going to test it and put it on youtube.

http://www.powerperformancenews.com/tech...configurations/

my eyes hurt so bad i'm ready to send everyone $10 .........

That confirms the rotor advances with both mech and vac advance. Robert has been clear in saying the rotor does not move forward with anything but vac advance.

Correct Sir, My statement/position is: "that mechanical adv will not alter rotor phasing" and that RP positioning is the relationship/clocking/distance between the rotor tip and the cap terminal when it fires which is checked by drilling the hole in the cap top and shining your timing light onto it just like you do down below on the dampener to check timing. My position: from idle to any RPM it will NOT move. I've observed it at least a dozen times in my work & again 2 days ago when I went out to my DD 85 Ramcharger & did it again & that dist has tight springs but I revved it up high enough so that I knew I was into some mech adv not sure how much & it did not budge. it shook a very slight bit cuz the bushings ain't dead on concentric but a moot point. Gentlemen place your bets (& actually that is just an expression as I'm sure online gambling is frowned upon) so we'll say that this is higher edumacation (Moparts Style) and the only question to be answered (which Trendz will likely answer for us next week (bless his heart) is WHO is the teacher and WHO is the student. Stay tuned for further episodes. RR. I want that steak! EDIT In the powerperformancenews video quoted above they state: "mechanical advance moves not only the position of the reluctor in relation to the pickup but also the rotor in relation to the distributor cap spark plug wire terminal" then (2) paragraphs down it says: "stock distributors align the rotor with the spark plug terminal on the distributor cap with the engine at the initial timing position and since the reluctor and the rotor are fixed together mechanical advance does not cause phasing issues because as the trigger is advanced so is the rotor". first statement is wrong and the second statement is correct. Trendz please hurry!

O.K. The distributor arrived this morning. The distributor machine is at work, so I won't be able to do it until Monday. Monday evening I will have the video results. Sorry, that's as soon as I can do it.
Mike, I'll send it back to you when I'm done. I haven't used distributors since the early '90s!

Trendz try this, the procedure I mentioned earlier (dist in a vise or in your hand) & see what you see. It'll take you 3 minutes if that. EDIT (1) hold dist housing in left hand with magnet at 12 o'clock (2) turn lower shaft so a tooth is lined up with the magnet (both at 12 o'clock) (3) note position of upper shaft notch which opposite to that is rotor location (RP) (4) turn lower shaft CCW (to the left) slightly (5) with the housing still being held so magnet is at 12 o'clock, grab lower shaft & hold it in this new position (with the tooth a bit to the left), & hold both solid with your left hand (6) with housing and lower shaft being held solid, grab the reluctor & twist it CW till the tooth is back lined up at 12 o'clock with the magnet which the magnet is still at 12 o'clock (this is when it fires) & the rotor position will be in the same exact position in relation to the cap as it was before you twisted the rotor (which is giving it mech advance). You will see the magic trick, how the mech adv can shift the reluctor (& it does) and with the reluctor and rotor being solidly connected (& they are) how the rotor position (phasing) does not change in relation to the cap when it fires (tooth lined up with magnet). I know it to be a fact but I was awed when I saw the HOW of it right in front of me

It is Totally correct that the Rotor Will change position during Mechanical advance.

But, it wont Show, as in the vid shown above. Because the rotor/reluctor advancement happens Under the pickup plate with its driveshaft. The upper cap terminal and rotor phase/relationship wont see that movement. Nor will the Vid show that when Trend gets done, as compared to the vid above.

The upper cap terminal/rotor relationship, wont know if the 10* or so of rotation is from the mechanical advance or just the engines rotation. So there should be no movement in trendzs vid except for normal tolerance play. Nothing like seen in the first vid.


Now, add Vacuum advance into the equation, it will look like the first vid. The Wide terminal posts of both the caps and rotors are to compensate for the vacuums phase movement.

Just wanted to agree with Mike,P and a lot of others that the Rotors relationship Will change under mechanical advance.

But it will be between the shaft going to the engines side and not upstairs as seen by the cap. The engine will see the advancement by the earlier spark but the cap will not see it.

I flipped on this, almost did a flop back, but staying with the flip today. Maybe flop back tomorrow though.

YES that is what I am saying: the cap will see not see it & "it" being any rotor (phasing) change & that was my original statement that only vac adv will change RP (that mech adv will not change it). the rotors' relationship (phasing) with the cap will NOT change under mechanical advance. I am not speaking of reluctor movement or timing or anything else other than strickly phasing

What ever Rick shows I will abide by... period..
if it doesnt move the rotor.. I will have the wife
do her paypal thingy.. period.... good enough?
EDIT
And I will state on here.. if I'm wrong

Guys this is the moneyshot right from that article. It clearly states the rotor will move in relation to the terminal. It wont be any more clear than this. The idea is to get the phsecjust right so it will still work with the advance and not jump. That is the rest of the article.

You can have an adjustable rotor or a different reluctor to move the phasing to where it needs to be. Clocking might be another term that explains better for some.


How it Works
With most typical mechanical advance distributors, the weights and springs are located on a plate that also mounts the rotor. As rpm increases, centrifugal force pulls the weights against spring tension and moves the plate, which advances the rotor in relation to the spark plug wire terminals in the distributor cap. The plate that mounts the rotor is connected to the distributor shaft that also spins what is sometimes called a paddle wheel, or reluctor, with 8 lugs on it (for a V8 engine). When each lug passes by the magnetic pickup, it generates a signal that triggers the module to initiate a spark from the coil through the rotor, across the gap to the distributor cap post and on its way to the spark plug. . In a standard non-EFI application, the reluctor tabs pass the pickup at exactly the same time that the tip of the rotor lines up with the intended terminal inside the distributor cap. These two are in a fixed relationship with each other. Mechanical advance moves not only the position of the reluctor in relation to the pickup but also the rotor in relation to the distributor cap spark plug wire terminal.
Vacuum advance works in a similar fashion. When engine vacuum is applied to the canister, it pulls on the plate that mounts the pickup. By moving the plate in the opposite direction of the rotating shaft, this also advances the timing.
All of this motion affects the position of the rotor in relation to the spark plug wire terminal on the inside of the distributor cap at the moment that the signal is sent to the CD ignition box to “fire” the coil. Stock distributors align the rotor with the spark plug terminal on the distributor cap with the engine at the initial timing position, and since the reluctor and rotor are fixed together, mechanical advance does not cause phasing issues because as the trigger is advanced, so is the rotor. But performance engines with EFI or power adders that require retarded ignition timing combined with high output spark demands place undue load on the ignition system and place a premium on rotor phasing. Let’s take a look at a typical situation.

"mechanical advance does not cause phasing issues because as the trigger is advanced, so is the rotor."
That's from the article.

Your saying right there that the rotor advances..
thats what I have said all along

O.K. I'll take another shot at this
Lets say that when the reluctor is lined up with the pick up, a spark shoots out of the coil.(it may happen on the rising edge or falling edge, but lets make this easy)

When the distributor is at rest, and the pick up and reluctor are lined up with each other, the rotor is aimed dead center at the cap terminal.
I have the distributor here and I see this as true.

Now lets add 10 (distributor)degrees of mechanical advance.

This seems to be where everyone starts to disagree.

The way I see it: The coil will only fire when the reluctor and pick up are aligned.

The way some see it: The rotor is 10 degrees ahead of a cap terminal when the spark occurs.

Since a spark only occurs when the reluctor and pick up align, how can this be?

How is the spark triggered if the reluctor is not in line with the pick up?

Trendz would you take 3 minutes & do the dist test in your hand. You will see the "magic", how the last three statements will take place even tho it makes no sense. Just now I went into the kitchen & tried it again (just to keep my sanity!). EDIT Keep in mind, you are checking rotor position at idle/no advance so to speak in your kitchen with a tooth lined up with the magnet then you are moving the tooth a bit CCW then twisting the reluctor back CW so it will fire earlier (the mech adv) which is what would happen when running & the mech adv is advancing it and at that point when it fires (earlier) the tooth is lined up with the magnet and the rotor is back to its original position. MORE EDIT as the tooth/rotor come around CW the mech adv twists the reluctor/rotor even further CW so it reaches the magnet sooner (& it fires) & when the tooth reaches the magnet sooner the rotor will be in the same spot on the cap as it was before the mech adv bumped it forward. that is the "trick", that when the tooth (earlier) reaches the immobile magnet the rotor will always be in the same position.

Trend is agreeing with you, he doesn't need to see the magic.

Boy, no wonder this is so confusing for Everybody.

Agreed; As I backed you up on that.

But, you wont see it, as you stated like on the first vid, and as I thought it would too. You thought that vid was proof. It made me Totally rethink this through too, as it might be proof. But, trust me it wasn't. Lets wait for trendz vid.


The Rotor advances, No argument about that. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, Get That out of the Way.

But , You wont see that action, like on the movement seen in the only vid shown so far. The Upper half of the distributer above the pickup plate doesn't know its drive shaft has advanced, mechanically. But the engine does.

Its just rotating in the same sinc as it has been before. Rotor/ reluctor/cap/pickup in the same exact marriage alignment.


So your half right, like most everybody else.

(1) Correct, the eng sees it cuz it fires earlier (2) Agreed, above the plates the marriage alignment (rotor phasing) between tooth/rotor/cap is the same/unaltered.

Ah what the heck... I'll muddy this up.

"The Rotor advances, No argument about that. Everybody Get That out of the Way."

This depends on your point of view. I contend that from the pick up's point of view, it does not advance.
From the pick up's point of view it stays exactly in the same place.
The mechanical advance puts the engine in a retarded state when it comes in.
The timing light will show the rotor staying in the same place, while the engine rolls away from tdc at the exact same time.

Depends on your point of view. Your right Glass half full or half empty.

Yep, the pickup sees it as the rotor has never moved. So it really doesn't see it{ Advanced Or Retarded} does it.

But I will argue the advance weights will throw the rotor forward compared to the engine rolling back under acceleration.

But, yeah, I don't think this thread needs any more Mud added in. Stop it Trendz.

And I do understand what your saying. Even though the weights are being thrown forward, the engine is firing from a retarded position from what is was before, with no advance. but the distributer is firing exactly as it was before.

Of course the firing event happens in the same place as far as the reluctor and pickup are concerned. The rotor will be ahead of where it was with no advance. It does not have to be spot on under the terminal to have the transfer of the spark.

The entire idea of even worrying about rotor phase is if you get a bad tolerance stack, it can be too far off where it needs to be in order for the spark to jump to the correct terminal. This becomes more crucial as the size of the cap increases. The referenced article goes into this. It is mind boggling we are page after page into this simple topic, with reference material no less, and i see people still talking about "magic" being involved. Starting to think this is an early April fools joke.

Before posting again to the contrary, go back and read that section i posted. As many times as it takes people. As many times as it takes.

My head hurts

"Of course the firing event happens in the same place as far as the reluctor and pickup are concerned. The rotor will be ahead of where it was with no advance. It does not have to be spot on under the terminal to have the transfer of the spark."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! the rotor will not be advanced compared to the pickup, reluctor, or cap. It will be in the same position at all engine speeds.
The only change in rotor phase will happen with vacuum advance or external timing controls.

Trendz I love you brother, if we were closer I'd treat you to a steak!

Can I be a Jerk!
I was so convinced you were wrong. Now I'm battling everyone that has my original thoughts on the subject!
Sorry guys! I'm just funnin..

Just do the test come Monday.. please and thank you

This is beyond stupid at this point, send me 10000 dollars. I'll take a personal check. Read the following until your eyes bleed. Then just stick a sharp object into them if you still think you are correct.


"With most typical mechanical advance distributors, the weights and springs are located on a plate that also mounts the rotor. As rpm increases, centrifugal force pulls the weights against spring tension and moves the plate, which advances the rotor in relation to the spark plug wire terminals in the distributor cap. The plate that mounts the rotor is connected to the distributor shaft that also spins what is sometimes called a paddle wheel, or reluctor, with 8 lugs on it (for a V8 engine)."

"Mechanical advance moves not only the position of the reluctor in relation to the pickup but also the rotor in relation to the distributor cap spark plug wire terminal."


If you STILL think the rotor doesnt move, if you can possibly map a way in your mind that can happen, go look at the pictures in the article. We dont need to wait for a video. Jeff Smith took care of the whole thing right there. Thank you Jeff, even if you are a Chebby guy.

Btw I first saw this thing called mechanical advance on a Sun distributor machine decades ago. If anybody reading this does not understand the concept at this point, I suggest a new hobby.

And that you send me money for the free education. Lots of it. Money. Send it.

Are you in for ten?

Your going to get a free education, you just don't know it yet.

That the rotor will move in relation to the cap when advanced by the mechanical advance?

I still go back to this video... RR says it had a retard
on it.. big deal... so it doesnt move as far.. but the
rotor clearly moves... and the title is Rotor Phasing
EDIT
And this dist is just a mech advance dist .. no vac pot

I dunno what he is trying to say. Maybe that a mopar ecu box will hold the charge until the rotor is dead center under the cap terminal?

I mean, that video displays exactly what we have been saying, that the rotor will in fact change place during the advance, yet he still thinks another video needs to be made.

So what is your new hobby going to be?

Yes. My position is: a regular dist with vac adv and mech adv with no weird add ons such as nitrous retard etc, that the mech adv does not change rotor phasing so if you cap the can the RP will not change at any amount of mech advance and RP will be checked by tossing on a cap with the hole drilled in the top then using a timing light to in effect freeze it (which is how RP is checked), that the rotor will NOT shift/move... (I feel like I am drawing up a legal document!). One Moparter to another, you would be betting that the rotor phasing will move with mech adv only and I will cover the bet for ten. (I have PP and I can send a ten dollar bill in an envelope to take care of my end as needed). I just checked the dist in my truck 3 days ago & reconfirmed my position, the rotor did not budge when I revved it high with the can unplugged/hose capped and I was definitely up high enough to be into the springs/advancing. Are you in brother!

Spending your money.

This one is already over. Send me my money. You have yet again failed to provide evidence of the entire rest of the world being wrong. The video, pics, and text posted in this thread proves beyond a shadow of doubt the rotor moves. If yours does not, your mech advance is frozen up. I have asked repeatedly for you to explain what advances the timing. You have failed to say anything beyond "magic." I'll ask one final time before taking your money-

WHAT CHANGES THE TIMING IF NOT THE MECHANICAL ADVANCE IN THE DISTRIBUTOR MOVING THE ROTOR/RELUCTOR?

P body long ago explained the light will fire when the event occurs. Watching the video you can see the rotor move in real time.

It ain't over! we're still in the middle of it. YES the mech adv in the dist changes the timing. that is absolutely correct but that ain't what I am saying, My position is "that mech adv will NOT alter the rotor position in relation to the cap when it fires (the rotor phasing)". If you are saying that it will change are you in for ten? With the light freezing the rotor (how RP is checked) the rotor will not budge from mech adv. Forget the other videos as trendz is (I believe) going to provide us with a video & Mr P Body is going to abide by the results as will I (will you?). PS my mech adv is NOT locked up/stuck & I've seen the same on multiple dists (same procedure)

To me that vid proves it very simple..and its
from a known company that is trying to help
people out to show them how to correct things
if they are bad.. as to retarded timing.. that
in the ECU.. its done electronically and the
rotor has still moved

That was good. I'll give you that

Just give my winnings money you owe to a local nonprofit or church. If you cant or wont review the materials posted then i cant compel you otherwise to pay off. This was never about money, rather i have an active distaste for misinformation being spread.

I asked for source material for even a shred of proof the rotor does not move in an unlocked mechanical advance distributor and none was posted. Instead i keep getting some subterfuge about a video to be made. We already have one produced by the industry sales leader in ignition parts. Im sure they would be amused by the notion a couple of hobbiests think they will school them on the topic.

the magic trick is that you can't "see" the rotor move with the timing light

since the mech adv can't possibly physically move the cap the rotor/reluctor have to move to change the timing...the msd link states it and shows it, the distributor machine will show it too. but the timing light probably doens't show it and that's gonna be the point RR sticks too...

Put a dial back timing light on it

" This was never about money, rather i have an active distaste for misinformation being spread."

This sentence will make the win all that much sweeter....

I agree 100%... we know it moves but the light
will say different since it flashes in sinc with
the terminal(the light is on the plug wire).. but
no ones wants to believe that video.. but it clearly
shows it
EDIT
Thats why we used a strobe light to see the rotor
and to see the rpm when it started to move and the
top rpm when the mech was at full advance.. thats
how we set up the springs and weight amounts back
when I tested that junk

The new vid will show the rotor at the terminal as you state because it fires when its in sync, advanced or not. But the base of the distributer machine should show advance on its measured 360 timing display.

The Vid that shows All the movement was {intentionally manipulated} to Show phase movement. It wasn't moved by any mechanical advance. It was moved for intensive purposes of the vid. It wouldn't of moved otherwise.

In the new vid if the rotor doesn't move from the terminal, and it wont. Whats it going to take to prove it. Would the display advance on the 360 degree panel be enough. Or will we all be just fooled by some type of magical event.

Thats why way back then we used the strobe to
see the position... we didnt care when it fired
we were setting up the advancement(springs and
weights).. that was about 40 years ago for me

It has been sweet already from the winning side.

Did you watch the video? At all? Watch it again and see the result after he reworks the phasing. Plain as day it moves as advance takes place.

Start watching at 2 minute mark. Shows the advance in action several times after rotor phase being set properly.

Sweetest thing is trendy posted the video and has popped off smugly several times since. Lmao.

Exactly! I posted the wrong info, then linked a video, then thought about it. I came back, tail between my legs, admitted I was wrong, payed up, then defended the correct information.
Admitting I was wrong REALLY was hard for me. Especially after acting as I did. I almost deleted my posts, but thought it better to just come clean. Hopefully you will be able to do the same!
I hold no grudge. Like you, I was ABSOLUTELY SURE I was right until I proved myself wrong.

I think the video that I post on Monday will convince you. Really.

Yes. I watched that vid. Almost made me jump back to your winning side as you put it. Don't jump to conclusions from that vid.

Watch it again yourself and consider this. Listen to the rev of the distributer machine.

At 2.00 the rotor starts out at the Left, as it revs, moves to the Right. Mechanical advance right. But wait, as it continues to rev, the rotor sweeps back to the Left and then again to the Right. Then back to the left as the RPM slows again. Done by 2;14

Someone is Clearly just manipulating it and Showing a ideal rotor phase perimeter, As they were doing in that vid.

If it were just a mechanical advance it would of Stayed in its proper direction of sweep in its correct rpm range. Its not going to Sweep back and forth above the RPM the advance is already enacted.

Think about that and comment please

Think about this.... did it start moving.. period

Not to mention the fact that there is a crank trigger mounted to it.

Yes it did., But based on the movements, it appears its intentioned manipulated movements.

That Vid is Worthless for whats being argued here. It clearly shows a intentional movement of the rotor to show the point of proper phasing. You cant tie in its movements to a mechanical advancement. No way, no how. IMO, anyways.


EDIT; I also know what Trendz video is going to show when he plays it. { A Stationary Rotor to its terminal.} And no I haven't seen it, haven't been told the results of it, don't even know if its been made yet. But, I know.

Sorry to spoil the movie folks.

someone tell me why it was they said in that MSD video that rotor phasing was so important...

what did they say the rotor did based on advance???

He talks about timing retards in your controls. Watch AND listen. This whole thing has gotten to epic proportions. I feel like this is a group "catfish" thing.

I dont know what rpms are in the video, its clear they change so take that into account, along with the idea a retard can be used.

Also most importantly- the damn rotor moves during operation. I suppose you all think it is just some loose parts msd cobbled together and that accounts for the movement.

I'll ask again; just why is the rotor moving? Think about it and comment back.

OK I'll chime in....the timing advance is created when the RELUCTOR is made to rotate away from it's original relationship to the pickup. THAT is what initiates timing advance because now the trigger relationship has changed!

All the rotor does is transfer that change to the cap. The rotor moves but that is why you have a broad tip on the rotor, to transfer that advance from the reluctor/pickup without deteriorating the cap and rotor
due to excessive gap.

Are we done now????

Joe

-I'm done.

Since the dedicated few have refused to read the material produced by a guy that has written tech for decades that says that very thing(even when edited down so it wont have extraneous info), refused to look at the related pics, and somehow misinterpreted the audio and video produced by the market share leading ignition company, PLUS having the same information restated numerous different ways by several people, I'll wager no.

Somecarguy are you in for ten? Trendz should have the vid for us pretty soon

I already told you to donate the money robert. The facts have been posted many times over, none of which support what you are saying or that you seem to see. Maybe your screen is broken?

Dont welch and stiff a charity. A pic of the receipt will suffice.

There it is again robert. If you take issue contact jeff smith and tell him he's the idiot. I know he's a chevy guy, but he has this right. Im sure your novel approach will revolutionize the entire industry that has missed this since cars developed enough to include advanced timing as rpm increased.

Please report back what he says. Please.

O.K. I did the test.
I have to figure out why the transfer to youtube is such low quality. The raw video is excellent.
This is one for now. I will try to get the video quality up.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu55m3QV8ag

Here's a clear one, start around 50 seconds in to see the mechanical come in. Notice the notch for the rotor moves with the shaft as the advance kicks in.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RcmkbQVPz9E

That one shows the rotor moving.. about half
the terminal.... good enough for me
EDIT
What RPM did you start at.. both of those springs
are weak ones... thats why I told you to start at
low rpm... if I recall that had full mech advanc
when the engine was idling.. about 900 rpm(crank)
so you need to start less than 400 rpm

Who said the Rotor doesn't move. Absolutely the Rotor Moves.

{The argument is the Phase doesn't change with Mechanical advance. Even Though it Moves}


The Phase WILL change under Vacuum advancement.

Mike P, That is what you saw in Trendz vid. It Wasn't the Mechanical advance Phase Change.

Are We now going to change the original argument, so that some can say, I see the rotor change phase.


It is Indeed a Brain Teaser. Here is what turned My light on.

Set the Rotor 10* before Fire/phase alignment. Keep ANY vacuum advance out of this.

Now Two things can Rotate that rotor 10* more to Fire it. The engine turning it, OR the Mechanical Advance Turning it the Rotor , yes Turning the Rotor, It moves.

It gets there Either way, and Fires Exactly in phase alignement Either way.

And YES the ROTOR MOVES, either way, But Fires in phase Both ways.


That's why you Don't see it move in Trendz vid, UNTIL he enables the Vacuum advance. Because that Rotates the Pickup plate.


THe ROTOR does move, in case anybody didn't pick up on that. But when it does under Mechanical advance, it just gets to the Terminal Sooner


You wont see that Sweeping Action like you expected you would see as in the Famous First Vid. NOT, with Mechanical advance.

Even Though The Rotor Did indeed move. MOVE, MOVE, MOVE

All I have said from the get go is the rotor
MOVES with MECH ADVANCE.. RR said NO it wont
move with mech advance

Better one.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxUF_MFA3po

with vacuum.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrRDcksgl8U

Good job Trendz and Thank you for your efforts, and Thank you Mike, P for sending him that distributer. Those Vids are very clear.

Mike, I put one heavier spring in the mech weights. The strobe was to hard to read at such low frequency.
The test start at 375 dist rpm. If you look closely at the better videos, you can see the distributor machine arrow strobe start at "0" and top out at 14 degrees.
The video without the vacuum advance being addressed shows no rotor movement, and also shows how the shaft out of the distributor retards 14 degrees.

The video with vacuum advance shows no rotor movement with 14 degrees of mechanical advance, then adds in another 14 degrees of vacuum advance. This is where the rotor position moves. You can see the strobe arrows move to 28 when the vacuum comes in, but no movement from 0 to 14 with mechanical only.

Ok... I OFFICIALLY say I'M WRONG and I will
send my $10 to RR

Also, I would like to thank RR, Rapid Robert, for bringing this educational brain teaser for all of us.

Sorry for referring to you as Rabid Robert, Crazy Robert. In my earlier First or second post, I was kidding though, friendly humor.

Its funny, though, when I finally understood it. I was responding to Trendz a rebuttal, to my side of the argument, that he was wrong, and then when as I was typing I realized that it was I that was wrong based on my rebuttal info.

Thats when I jumped from the winning side, to the educated side.

Excellent video! I did the same test on the car with my 1/2" window by terminal #1 and used my mighty vac hooked to the vacuum advance pot. Got the exact same results.

Sport440, no sweat bro & actually I was beginning to feel a bit Rabid! tho not "nearly" as rabid as Somecarguy appears to have become. Somecarguy where are ME and YOU at on this? its down to ME and YOU. My PP address is: rapidrobert at intergate dot com. I had seen it (no RP movement with mech adv only) many times but did not know the why of it till I held a dist in my hand & did my earlier procedure. I agree it makes NO sense how the mech adv could be advanceing the reluctor so it will fire earlier but yet the rotor position in relation to the cap terminal (rotor phasing) when it does fire stays the same/does not move and any body that claims that it doesn't move for sure has to be a bit Rabid. with the dist in front of me I saw it (how it does it) & to me it's a bit like the lady being sawed in half on stage, you know it ain't happenening but it appears so. If you do the dist check in front of you (3 minutes) you will see it & it awed me. Trendz grasped it without even doing it which I was not able to do. RR

Wow this is alot. I have breezed through this and would like to make a comment without looking at any video.
When you grab a rotor on a Mopar dist and turn it some with your hand while the dist is in the car the rotor and reluctor turn together. So if the rotor is set to be aligned with the cap terminal when the reluctor lines up with the pick-up coil to fire the coil then since the reluctor and rotor move together the rotor wont move and will stay aligned with the cap terminal when just the mech advance works. Its very simple as all that happens is the rotor and reluctor line up sooner since the mech advance has moved the reluctor and rotor together and every time the reluctor and pick-up line up the rotor will be aligned with the cap terminal. All that happens is the rotor and reluctor still line up but they are lining up sooner now like when the crank is say 30 degrees BTDC and they will line up the same at 10 degrees BTDC only at 30 degrees they get lined up soon then at 10 degrees. The mech advance is moving the top of the dist shaft as per say but it moves the reluctor and rotor together and they will still line up with the pick-up coil when the rotor and cap terminal line up. Ron

EXACTLY

Sent... now you can have your steak

We're good brother. A man of his word is always top notch. If I can post my pic I will on how Rabid this was making me!

Ok I said the rotor moves with the advance. It does.

You also said that mech adv changes rotor phasing which was my original post that it did not. I originally made a statement in a post (that got this started) that only vac changes RP, You said that mechanical adv changes RP (& this was our bet). We confirmed that it (mech) does not change it. You made a comment about me paying a charity & sending (might have been showing) you the receipt so I'm assuming you are/were in for ten. You owe me ten plus an apology (not for your position but for all of your out of line ventings). PS I just noticed your signature whatever they call that automated line that gets put in at the bottom of a persons' response. So what are you gonna do?

I kept saying the rotor and reluctor are a fixed relationship. The text i cut and posted from the article says that. I do see one post where it might have been unclear, as trendz took it another way due to the wording. I dont think we are/were talking about the same thing.

The rotor changes position but the timing light still fires when the spark occurs. I thought you were saying the rotor wouldnt be in a different spot in relation to the cap, as if it moved independently of the reluctor or something.

This guy called it.

I hope the line above bolded like i want it to. If not, it is the one about the rotor not budging. I think that is the one that sent me off the rails. Reading it more i think you were including the comment about using the timing light, while i took it you were saying it didnt move. The shaft didnt move forward that is, when the advance kicked in. Throw that in with the talk about magic and maybe you can see my confusion about what was being discussed.



I just went back and bolded what I was keying off of pertaining to the "bet." I realize we werent on the same page so it's fine to forget it. I posted the one sentence statement and the very next thing i saw was the word yes. Hence my thoughts were colored by that and the above about not seeing movement. That is why i kept saying things were frozen up, locked or whatever if the rotor isnt moving.

Add to that P body said things like the timing light would still fire at the time of the spark, mark the distributor and you'll see the movement, etc and when you kept saying it was magic and kept pushing bets, i thought you were talking about something else going on.

RR made it perfectly clear what he was talking about.
Your pages of posts are wrong.
Just admit it.

x2.

Thanks for the videos, Trendz. The MSD video muddied the waters, but we were assuming a bunch about their distributor setup when now it's clear they were just controlling timing via an ignition box to show how rotor phasing changes with ECU generated timing curves.

hey BLAZIN' BOB......... are you now gonna go by "the ADVANCE AZZ" ?????
just kidding ! just kidding! this has been a VERY thought provoking discussion indeed ! i even went to the shelf and grabbed a partially dis-assembled distributor to see if i could mimic the action without the housing in the way so i could see better. one question if i may. would this be easier to see if a wide cap were to be used, such as a "cap-a-dapt" setup, or possibly use a 4cylinder distributor ? anyway, thank you for this discussion ! and i repeat : I'M JUST KIDDING !" i ain't looking to get banned, pounded, or have you mad at me !

X3, from the very beginning RR position was clear. Either pay up or send the money to a charity of his choice, show the receipt of course.

Nah its all good! Somecarguy I believe I had posted/clarified my assertion that "rotor phasing would not change from mech adv" and that only vac adv would alter it & no I was not referring to the rotor not moving or timing change or anything else off on a tangent that you were saying, just strickly that when you hit the rotor with the light (which is how RP is checked) that it will not move & we are on for ten cuz you directed me where to send my tuition if I lost. Send me ten to my PP and we're good and order will be restored to the universe. Are you a man of your word, that is the question now? Moparx, we absolutely good brother & yeah just grab one of your dists & dont even need the cap so a regular dist will work fine & do the 12 0'clock deal I posted way back & you'll see it. the bennie that might come out of this is that some dists have way off RP & if it is on the edge & causes a miss under load at speed it might be a MF to track down. You can pump up the can on your bench with a Mityvac & check it. retract rotor all the way (the springs should already be doing this). make a mark on the dist top rim perimeter to note current rotor location. put cap on & make another mark just below where cap meets housing at the center of the particular cap bulge where the rotor is. remove cap & compare the distance between the two now then pump up the can and make another mark where the rotor ends up. ideally you want the cap terminal to be centered inbetween the "swing" of the arc and if it is a bit off I like it to be closer at zero vac cuz that is where it will be at WOT when the required voltage is the greatest and the available voltage is the lowest (less coil saturation time cuz of high RPM) and the can will shift RP CCW on a SB and CW on a BB. several ways to correct including Ebergs redrilled reluctor or redrill you own, high quality drill bit in a bit from the ID then open it up out to the ID with a high quality mini file or widen the rotor slot in the upper shaft then close the other side with some JBweld (I ain't done it yet but I'm gonna sometime). in addition to circumferential distance there is radial distance (& they both add up). NAPA sells the MO3000 rotor with a .060" longer blade but you can make your own by drilling out the rivet in the stock rotor & making a new blade. Ideally your want .015" rotor tip to cap terminal clearance or pretty close to that. any distance that the spark has to jump is wasted energy & ups the required voltage & stresses the coil. If you ain't using vac adv you can pump up the can till the RP is dead on then drill a hole inbetween the two plates and lock them (the plates) in that position with a mini bolt/nut with a spacer inbetween the plates so that they do not tilt when you snug the bolt & use a drop of loctite. Somecarguy lets settle up on the ten.

Why make a big deal about a timing light showing a spark? That's normal operation and expected. To carry on about it being some sort of magic or unexpected is weird and shouldnt be up for debate. I clearly asked if he was saying the rotor wouldn't move and he said yes. That was a yes or no question, which is why I asked it to get a simple yes or no.

That was the bet I agreed to. I saw no "magic" in a timing light coming on when it sensed a spark. If other people made bets different than the one i did, fine. Settle up on those. I'm not paying someone based on what others did. That would be like betting the line of a game based on a certain number and settling on a different number after the fact.

Robert, your writing tons and tons about this is what caused the confusion. That's why I asked it in the one sentence I bolded above.

The rotor won't change in relation to the cap.

What will change is the pickup plate, and where it is located in relation to that rotor.


Weights move out, and cam the pickup plate into a different timing area.

^ Case in point right here. This is where we are at because of tons of words being bandied about on the topic.

The weights have nothing to do with pick up position.

Pick up position only changes with vacuum advance.

From the pick up plate's perspective, the weights put a delay in shaft rotation to the engine.(see video) This is what makes the engine timing change.
Upper distributor sync does not change with mechanical advance.

All you have to do is think about it backwards..
when the relutor lines up the crank moved... not
the rotor... the bottom of the dist moved.. not
the top

I don't care about any bet, but want to know if you understand it now. I do know that you thought the rotor would move from the terminal like in the First vid from MSD. That was your proof , you made that clear to me.


Don't care about the bet, want to know if you've been enlightened/educated as I have. To me, its about passing the knowledge.

Read my first 5 or so posts, I was right with you brother, before I understood it and saw the Light. Im not sure your there yet, Are you???

" This was never about money, rather i have an active distaste for misinformation being spread."

Where did I hear that?

Sport440, The video had a low angle and you could see the rotor move, that is what was the point. It's clear to me you didnt understand that movement was the point. There was never any question for me(although 15,000 posts can get words twisted up as only so many ways to say the same thing, so maybe not clear after a bunch) as to when a timing light would fire, hence it made no sense to have lengthy posts about it. A video of a timing light firing when a spark is delivered isnt something to find amazment in. When a dial back light was suggested to show the movement, it didnt cause the post to end, only more talk about bets; it looked like he was saying something else explains it, other than rotor movement. So i distilled it down to a narrow parameter of does the rotor move in relation to the cap. As I posted many times, that moves the reluctor in unison.

I thought we already went over this front and back, maybe you didnt take it that way. The rotor has to move in relation to the cap in order for there to be a spark at a different time under mech advance. That's not magic.

A wise man coined that for you.

So, in basic English, You still don't get it.

Oh good grief! whats causing you trouble? The talk of timing retard in the video? The timing light coming on at different times when the reluctor moves in relation to the pickup? That the rotor is tied to the reluctor? You still think the rotor is in the same position after the advance kicks in? Man you are struggling with this.

So, in basic English, You still don't get it. haha

CONFIRMED!

Man you are a bad troll or dont get it. Or both. Thanks for the laughs!

I do think i know what you are missing. If you change the relationship of the rotor to the reluctor, you dont understand the light will still show when the spark happens, but you dont understand that will still show the rotor/reluctor combo aligned with the terminal. It still moves with the advance. We covered that back in the beginning, but you were wrong and still are about it. You still think it's magic.

That's too funny.


Better yet, let's have your alternate conclusion since you are so certain it's different. This should be good

I thought this was as close to a steak as I ever was gonna get! but my faith in humanity has been restored. Trendz and Mr P body are top notch people.

Too funny!!

Ok, this is your problem i see. In reference to the phase being off, you can have the spark jump too far away and using a retard it can be worse. You need the rotor tip close to the terminal and not far away when the reluctor meets the pickup. I was posting about the msd video. I see where my statement caused confusion. Moving the adjustable rotor or using a different reluctor changes the alignment. I posted the phasing issue along the way, but you got stuck on this post i believe.

The entire situation stems from people not understanding the timing light will not show them the advancing position unless they dial back to zero. And wanting to bet others about a timing light firing when a spark happens, while not understanding it will still fire when the rotor/reluctor combo is in line with the pickup. Thus we have way way too many posts on this.

Think of it like this. Take a dist and have someone hold the dist shaft so it wont move. Then grab the rotor and turn the mech advance all the way and line up the rotor where the cap terminal would be with the advance fully advanced. Then have the guy holding the dist shaft let it go while holding the rotor lined up to the caps terminal spot. The advance will move the dist shaft backwards when its let go but the rotor wont move. Then have the person move the advance forward through the advance while still holding the rotor , reluctor and cap terminal lined up and you will see the rotor stays lined up with the cap terminal all through the mechanical advance travel. Its the same thing when the mechanical advance goes through its travel as like I said before the rotor , reluctor and cap terminal will still line up only it lines up sooner since the mechanical advance has come into play. Ron

SomeCarGuy,
So watch the video. You will see that the timing light has no dial back. It is a "fixed zero" timing light. NO DIAL.

Rotor, reluctor,pick up and cap all stay in CONSTANT PHASE at all rpm. The only exception is while using vacuum advance.
The only change is the shaft delay to the engine.
If you think that a timing light wont tell you when spark is occuring, then you cant be made to fully understand what a distributor does.

RapidRobert, now I know why you know so much about this electricity stuff!
Your real name is Dr. Emmit Brown. 1.21 jiggawatts!

You fell overboard and want other people to join you to make yourself feel better. We have been over and over this, yet you still are searching for a way to make yourself feel better. Hubris has led you to this, just stop.

I dont know what in the hell rabbit hole you fell into now. Who said a timing light wont show when a spark occurs? What else is such a tool for?

One more time- the light comes on when it gets a spark. That event time changes as the mech advance moves the rotor/reluctor combo, you will still see the timing light strobe come on in line with the terminal since the reluctor and pickup are now meeting in a new place in the circle. If the phase of the rotor and reluctor are off, the timing event will be seen away from the terminal. If that is happening, you can get a misfire. Correcting that is what adjustable rotors and reluctors are for.

I get it, you dont want to be on the same page after a zillion posts since you didnt catch his bet was about the timing light coming on. I did and after no other explanation as to this "magic," i made one about the rotor moving when the mechanical advance kicks in. It does, despite any other outstanding issue maybe lingering(?), sport440 understands the rotor moves. It has to. Use a dial back light like i said and you'll see. When the rotor moves with advance, we know the reluctor on the same shaft has been moved as well.

If you dont understand that, well whatever.

Ron gets it.

Did you ever figure out the problem? It could be a rotor phasing issue. I had that problem a long time ago with my first stroker motor which is why I started to make reluctors with the different offsets. When I checked my rotor alignment the rotor was pointed somewhat close to the right terminal without the vacuum advance hooked up, but once the vacuum advance kicked in the rotor swung far enough over that the spark could jump to the wrong terminal.

Just for the record, mechanical advance does not change the position of the rotor in relationship to the cap. Vacuum advance does since the vacuum can pulls the entire mechanism.

On my stroker motor there was enough intake manifold vacuum that at low throttle or on decel the can would fully advance and the rotor would move enough to cause mis-fire. I fixed it by splitting the difference on the reluctor. I spaced the rotor so it would be a little past the terminal with zero vacuum and then a little ahead of the terminal under full vacuum. That simple fix solved the problem.

I showed my fix to Eberg and he started selling the reluctors to others. I think he still sells them.

andy, thanks for asking.

i don't know yet if i have solved it, car has been out of commission for the last week or so doing some other work.

what i found was some carbon streaking on the rotor where it contacts the cap at the center. i could also see that only the very edge of one side of the rotor tip showed spark traces, and when i aligned it up with the cap, sure enough it was not aligned with the cap terminal on that side. i used one of the offset reluctors to line it up, and it runs fine, but i haven't had a chance to play with it yet. i want to drill a hole in a cap and make sure that it is in line.

interesting about the vacuum advance though, as mine seems to be misfiring under load, although come to think of it, i'm not sure just how much load the engine is under when doing a burnout. high rpm, but doesn't take that much to spin the wheels.

so i still have some investigation to do...

It is easy enough to check, especially on a BB or Hemi since the distributor is right up front. Just drill a hole near the #1 post and shine your timing light down in there. If you have a Mityvac you can hook it up to the distributor and pull a vacuum on the can. As you pump up the vacuum you'll see the rotor swing clockwise.

I set up my distributors so the rotor is on the left side of the post with zero vacuum and then the vacuum advance will pull the rotor over to the right side of the post.

That first stroker engine I built had a distributor where the rotor started off on the right side of the post. As I applied vacuum the rotor would swing to the right and you could hear the spark jumping to the wrong post. The engine would start to misfire and run rough. That was a good learning experience for me.

All the drama aside, this post has been very informative for me also.https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/images/icons/default/eek.gif

What was your method of adjusting this, a adjustable cap as shown in the MSD vid or did you modify the pickup plate and rotate that.?

Actually, I set mine up so that under full load ( no or low vacuum) the rotor lines up perfectly with the cap terminal and under light load ( Vacuum advance in action ), the rotor lines up with about 1/2 the cap terminal. To the OP, Although Phasing the rotor to the cap is always a good thing to do / check and in that regard this is a good post, this did not solve my missing problem under load. My carb was about 5 jet sizes too rich ( although it had the "out of the box size jets in it ). Just so you keep and open mind to your problem.

I machined a new slot in the reluctor to change the position of where the rotor is when the reluctor trips the circuit.

i used the same. i have had it for a while, i think someone in this thread posted an ebay link to the guy who sells them.

i know this thread has died of natural causes, but thought i would give an update.

with the new slotted reluctor in, and a hole drilled in the cap, the rotor is dead on the terminal. also, as has already been reported and verified here, the position of the rotor did not move as the mechanical advance came on.

while the FSM says vacuum advance is only about 10 degrees, i have no idea if that is also the case for the mopar electronic distributor i have in there, but it looks like it. with the engine running and the timing light shining, using a mighty vac i brought in all of the advance and the rotor was still in a good position to the terminal.

so, don't know if this was my issue yet, but this is certainly one thing out of the picture!

Good deal. That mity vac is a handy little tool to keep around the shop. I use mine all the time. Makes a test like this easy to do and you can also test power valves to see when they open up (they open really slow for those who haven't tested them). With the right attachment you can bleed your brakes or the clutch or other such stuff and you can test various vacuum operated things in the car. In the 70's almost everything was vacuum operated but these days it is all digital stepper motors so the Mity Vac isn't quite so useful on modern cars.

(1) Mick this thread died of unnatural causes (2) the # stamped on the arm actually in there will tell you the circumferential "arc" distance the rotor will swing back & forth in (in degrees but easy math will let you convert it to distance if you are into that). (3) Also you might check/correct the radial distance between the rotor tip and the cap terminal (ideal is .015-.020 ish). any more than this forces the spark to jump a greater distance/more area creating more carbon tracking from the excessive flame and it also increases the required voltage to jump that excessive gap.