SETTING PINION DEPTH............

The guy that was going to set up my carrier can`t so I may just tackle it myself. After talkin to Cab he explained a pinion checker tool should be used but is there another way a guy like me could get the same results?

Thumper RA Tech sells pinion depth checkers that are less than 300 bucks, they sit between on the pinion head and you measure against the carrier bores a certain way to check depth, using the depth indicator on a pair of veneer calipers.

I just bought one to use on my 8 3/4. I'm sure it won't be perfect, but will give you a good start, then adjust based on the pattern. People with the high dollar mics say they often need to adjust based on the pattern anyway, as the depth from the manufacturer isn't quite perfect. You can buy the tool on summit and they're application specific. Reviews on them have been pretty good.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rat-10007/overview/

Dom do you have access to set of depth mics? I thought I read on another post that your center is new. That makes it more difficult without the proper tools to measure pinion depth. I wish you were closer. I'd show you how to do it, or let you borrow the tools. If it was a used center ( a gear in it already) you could compare depth markings and do the math to shim the new set. I always use that as a guide then move pinion for a the best pattern I can get. Wish I could help more I feel like I owe you that

You can go the trial and error method...
Using the old pinion depth shim assemble the unit.
Set the backlash to the indicated amount check the match. Move the pinion depth according to the pattern left. Remember to add some type of drag to the pinion while rotating to set the pattern.

Thankxx guys not sure yet what I`ll do but appreciate the input........

I don`t want to tear apart the old unit as it`s for sale.......

Have Cass send you a reemed pinion bearing that will slide on and off. If you have that, an assortment of shims and yellow gear marking compound, and a dial indicator to verify backlash, you have all you should need.

EDIT: Forgot you also need a spanner tool. I have one I'd be happy to lend you if needed, Dom. Let me know.

I have a checker but don't usually use it. Start with the original shim. Check the pattern. Best tutorial I've seen is here. Click and scroll down to general instructions.
https://www.yukongear.com/manuals.aspx
Doug

I have depth checkers but rarely bother to use them. They will usually get you close, but normally the shim pack will need to be adjusted some to get the pattern dead nuts. If you are replacing gears, start with the one that came out. On a new assembly, chose an initial shim pack thickness to start according to what rear is being set up and go from there. The pattern will determine where to go with it.

Figured I could get a bearing locally and hone it out but Cab explained and I read that there`s a small margin of error .+004 -001 in terms of the pinion location to start w/then you shoot for the pattern.........

Autozone has pinion bearings in stock that I can butcher for $7.90 then after the depth and pattern are good, then I need to tighten the pinion nut(me)and check preload on the pinion and measure how many in. lbs to turn it correct?

I use the same brand honed pinion bearings that I use when putting them together.

Pinion preload is about the last thing I check. Get a rough set up, get your pattern, then finalize pinion preload. If you have to change depth shims, your preload shim pack will change a little.

You said $300 bucks that thing`s 25 and change and if it helps, it may be a new tool in my box.........

The Richmod gears that Cass sent me last month had a spec for pinion depth to be measured at the head-face of the gear. I started with .090 under the pinion and just checked this with a simple caliper. Measurement was within a few thousandths of spec, so I moved on to looking at the pattern and fine-tuning that with the side adjusters.

I have had the depth tool and after a while I quit using them, its easier for me to just set it up how I know and then adjust for the pattern, I make setup bearings for the ones that have shims behind them, or setup races for those in the case. I always start with a good known pinion shim dimension, if you look online Im sure there is a chart handy. then set pinion preload by feel without shims or crush washer, smack lightly the pinion back and forth to set races and bearings and put carrier in, set backlash, I use .006 for most some looser but I use the same so patterns will not be affected differently. Adjust pinion depth to center pattern in gear face to flank, heel to toe is not really adjustable as it is how the gear is made and run in. Then after set up go back and set pinion preload with a inch pounds wrench or I do it by feel and shim accordingly or use the crush washer. If using crush washer I locktite the pinion nut.

If you set it at zero backlash and tighten the opposing adjuster you will preload the carrier and set the back lash at the same time. I made a spanner from an 1 1/2'x3/4" angle piece of steel. Drilled two 1/4" holes at the correct spread for the adjuster holes. Two 1/4" bolts and nuts and your all set. The bolts will fit in the adjuster holes.
Doug

I also reamed a pinion bearing to slide on and off and use that method most of the time. But dont forget after you get it right to slide the test bearing off and then press the right new bearing on. Ron

Although this sounds a bit tricky I HOPE I can get it right and not fubar it.........lol! So just one pinion set up bearing?

Yep, the big one against the pinion gear.

I didn't read all the reply's, I made my own checker in a lathe. If you've got access to one or a friend that has one, (lathe) turn one out. Dave

Slowly figuring this out thankxx 2 u guys and will start on it hopefully soon here gettin carb busy........... Thankxxx guys

I bought this pos and muddled through the set up on three sets of 8.75 gears..... shoot me an address and I'll send it your way. From my memory of using it.... I'm not sure this is a threat, or a promise.

http://www.proformparts.com/product-exec...category_id/159

...at least at work we still have all the dummy bearings etc for the D60 stuff.

You DON'T need high tech tools to do this. Aftermarket gears have the depth measurement marked on them. This number is the measured distance from the machined surface of the pinion gear head, to the centerline of the ring gear. Common sense tells you that the ring gear centerline, is also at the parting line of the caps. So my "trick" pinion setting tool is a precision straight edge and a set of dial calipers. Lay the straight edge across the carrier, place dial caliper on top of straight edge.....roll the caliper until the "tail" contacts top of pinion gear. Read that number, subtract width of straight edge(mine is exactly 1") and there you have it. This and a set of honed bearings is ALL you need.

Now, I have had people tell me the cap parting line is not always "true" center of ring gear, because of casting variance. Ok, I have never seen this to be true, but lets say it is. You can STILL use the straight edge method. It will be really close and you are going to put it together, check the pattern and make adjustments anyway, so what does it matter. This is NO different than guessing at a shim pack you have and checking it, although this will likely be closer from jump, unless you get lucky on the guess.

If you just WANT to buy a tool, but not break the bank. Try the Ratech tool. They are cheap, about 30 bucks and actually work. Look it up. Little different approach, but they work

Why don`t you like or need it?

it was many moons ago that I used it to set up a few 8.75 gear sets.... as I remember it just seemed a bit confusing trying to use it. We have all set up tools for D-60 rears at work so that makes it easy for my present configuration.

Ya Monte, a gentleman on here told me the parting line was how he does em and it`s good enuff for me but having the trick tools probably can`t hurt...........

Dom, What Monte describes here is EXACTLY what I was trying to describe on the phone.

You are who I was talking about sir........

I used to use the parting line method. The line was not always in the middle but easy to compensate for. Just measure the caps and the housing. Add the results and split the difference. Add or subtract the result of the split to the carrier. Like everyone has said you need to read the pattern anyway so now I just start with the old shim.
Doug

In this instance, there is no "old" shim, because this is a totally new setup. Says he is selling old unit complete. So you either guess at a shim, or put it in with nothing and check depth. Adjust to depth scribed on pinion, put it together, check pattern.

As per Richmond's instructions - Shim thicknesses to start with, Dana’s .035, 8-3/4 x 1-3/4 pin, .090, 8-3/4 x 1-7/8 pin, .020, These have worked for me in the past to get me started, MOST of the time.

This is quite correct,when using the parting line first measure the depth of the bearing seat(apex of the radius of half the bore) then devide the total radius by 1/2.ie: a Dana bearing race measures 3.813 devided by 2 equals 1.9065,if the housing depth measures 1.881 ,this tells us the housing part line surface is machines .025 below the true bearing centerline and we must add .025 to correct our pinion depth.
We have and use all the fancy tools,but in the end we do what ever to obtain the best pattern and clearance which is the most important thing.

Start with a 0.040" shim.

Thankxxx guys...........Cass, was going to call you and see what you recommended as a starting shim since these are your cases and a new design if it mattered............ Will be ordering 35 spline axles next week. Do you carry lug nuts and washers?

Sorry Thump it was a typo, I meant $30.

I set my last one up guessing and checking, which gets a little annoying to keep setting the backlash precisely the same. I figured this should ball park me closer to start like I said. Especially doing it for the first time, it gets a little fuzzy with depth vs backlash and what it does to the pattern when you start really far off.

No biggie, I`m going to vatozone soon and will get a bearing, hone it and start checking............

Unfortunately, I don't carry lug nuts.

This is the hardest part of the job.

What's everyone using for backlash? IIRC my last Richmond set called for .006-.010, I set it up at .010, they were smooth but they hummed over 55 (4.56s). I set them up loose hoping they wouldn't break easy, but I broke them anyway, so I think I'm going to try the tight side this time.

No problem I`ll get em locally. GTXMatt, Cass suggested .007 so I`ll shoot for that which apparently meshes better to avoid breakage..........

As mentioned, the Ratech gauge works great http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rat-10007/overview/

The setup bearings will get you close, but set the shims on the loose side because the actual pressed on bearing will expand slightly from the press fit.

The clamshell type bearing remover will allow you remove the bearings without damage if you need to change the shims.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIFFERENTIAL-BEA...r-/251544641906

If you need a case spreader for a Dana 60

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Differential-Housing-Case-Spreader-Dana-30-80-Housings-New-/351606418157?hash=item51dd602aed:g:vDMAAOSwCQNWcf1u&item=351606418157&vxp=mtr

I have that tool and it works great for side bearings. On the pinion bearings, I prefer to polish the journals on the pinion to get the fit I prefer; light enough that I can get the bearing on and off without damaging it. Light enough on the front bearing that it will go in and out with a light mallet. Then you're able to set it up with the bearings you're going to use. I find the bearing fit on new pinions to be all over the place depending on who made them. Some just need the coating polished off, others require more work for an acceptable fit. Tolerances seem to be all over the place on these parts these days.

I'll have to see someone pull this off before I believe it. I've tried it many times. Heated the bearing. Iced the pinion. Never gotten one off without damaging the needle-cage first.

The tool uses the race to compress and contain the rollers and the cage. Takes some using it to get it right. If you're using it on the pinion, you'll have to have a second bearing race.

I ordered a bearing and will have it later today along w/a nut that way I won`t screw anything up which I`m a pro at.......... Phase one, got the pinion races installed the after my carb work is done I`ll get back after it. Thankxxx again for all of the help and I`m sure I`ll have many more questions.............

For street applications I used whatever is marked on ring gear usually .008 to .010. B\L Transbrake dragcar try for .005-.006 never had any troubles.

Thankxxx Cass recommended .007-.008.............I sure wish I had a carrier vise but hopefully my friend will build me one...... I will always be a footbrake guy at least w/this car....... Crazy question but do you guys think the filler plug assists in structural strength? The reason I ask is I was thinking of getting an alum. plug instead......

http://www.tdmach.com/Deluxe%20Pinion%20Checker%2011148.pdf

http://www.durasolid.com/carrer-pinnion-bearing-puller

I have a t&d pinion height tool and the clam shell type puller. The puller pulls bearings off in seconds and never hurts them. They both work excellent...

Looks cool but after talking to Cass, he said he doesn`t even use em and that it`s more of a hastle and takes more time messing w/those than it does to set em up sometimes.........

Maybe you should just send it to me and I will send my carb to you for an even labor swap

I have set up probably over 100 gears and never once used a pinion depth tool. I do use set-up bearings for all the ones I do though so I guess it's just developing a feel for it.

Just remember to de-burr the shims before you start

Gus

I would if u were closer cos the fed ex monkey literally dropped the damn thing on my porch plus I need to learn how but thankxxx anyhow........

Aluminum plug !! Dom you've been hanging out with Full Metal Jacket and DVW too much. Aluminum plug will be fine.

Are you working on an 8-3/4" or Dana 60?
If the 8-3/4", which case (741, 742, 489), and if the 489 are you using the crush sleeve or solid spacer (crush sleeve eliminator?)

Had to ask............ Ya 451mopar, it`s the 489 set up w/the solid spacer..........

That is a cool puller.....but I have to wonder why all the fuss about pulling bearings. Why not just polish the pinion, spool, what have you, so that the bearings are not a press fit and be done with it. Where does anybody think the bearing is going to GO if it's not pressed on tightly

I got myself a 3 ft section of drilled angle steel at home depot for a few bucks. bolted the chunk to it at about the center through the mounting holes. I can then put the chunk on the floor and stand on the angle steel on either side. it holds the chunk in place for torqueing the cap bolts.

I may have to steal this if u don`t mind..........

I agree thats what I do, Just in case you have to replace a gear at the track! Not many fancy pullers or presses where I race.

Thank you. Needed to be said.

I was wondering the same thing about the crazy press fit because once everything`s tight where`s it gonna go? I have grinding bits and flapper wheels so I`ll mike the pinion after I polish it up and the bearing id`s and slowly remove the needed material from the bearing id and go from there..........

Well why is anything bearing press fit? I thought so that the inner ring doesn't spin on whatever its pressed on, rather than the bearing spinning. Be careful how much you remove.

I have to agree with GTXMatt here.

If the bearing is a slip fit on the pinion then there is the chance of the race wearing the pinion stem. Possibly galling it because that portion of the bearing is not designed to be lubed (no oil grooves) like the needle cage is. IMO the pinion and bearing need to become one as the housing and race are, with a press fit.

I could see easing the press fit a bit and the only way I would do this is by honing the I.D. of the bearing. Start taking material off the pinion and you have a cluster F*** the next time it needs to be worked on.

Read it again. Don't make it a loose fit, just a medium or light press so you can get it apart without damaging the bearing. If you can get it apart or put it together by hand, you went too far, IMO. Front bearing can be lighter, sometimes they will go together by hand with all new parts. 1 or 2 thousandths make a difference in the pattern. I want to set it up with the parts I will be installing rather than have to fudge it. Tolerances on the parts are all over the place these days.

If you have a spare gear set that you carry to the track, it should already have been set up with the correct shims and bearing on the pinion ready to go.

When the pinion nut is tightened, the front race, spacer (or crush sleeve) and rear race and all pinched against the pinion head. You will burn the bearings up, weld everything together and twist the pinion in two before you turn a race on the shaft IF you didn't make it sloppy loose in the first place.

I only plan on removing a small amount and will still have a press fit or just set it up as is.......

I have found that if you are using a press that you are familiar with and have a "feel" for, you can tell how tight the press is with just a few pumps. If it's tight, you can still catch the inner race to pull it back off, rather than the cage. Don't slam the stuff together until you are satisfied with the fit. It should come off fairly easy with no deforming of the cage using a decent press.

I don't do it sloppy loose, but I don't want to need a press to put them on either. Been doing it this for 30+ years myself and my dad did the same. NEVER spun a race in a case. I don't hone bearings. I put the pinion stem or carrier in a mill or lathe and use a crank polisher, or just a length of emery cloth to take enough off to get the race on easily. This is the same way that Dewco sets up $5000 low drag centers. Good enough for them, good enough for me

So you`re maybe removing .001-.002.............

Not saying they should fall on and off. A light press fit, did mine and my brothers that way years ago. Both cars run T/brakes and no issues. Last time my 60 was apart, I changed gears, beautiful pattern but gears starting to get sharp. I will attribute that to 3500+lbs. and a transbrake on a street gear that was in the car for 10 yrs. The spool bearing surface that had been polished looked just like it did 10 yrs. ago when I did it. As did the pinion shaft. You don't just sand away til the bearing drops on. The way I see it, the gear change was routine maintenance in heavy car with a brake. JMO

I don't know why anyone would think the inner race would spin on the pinion shaft even if sanded down. The inner races of both pinion bearings are locked in place by the spacer and shims, which are sandwiched between the pinion gear front face and the pinion yoke.. Neither of which can change position.

If you want to go with a slip fit, it seems you would want to hone the bearing, not polish the pinion. if there does end up being an issue, I'd rather replace a single $40 bearing, than a $200 gearset. Besides, if you go too far with the bearing..... presto: you've got the tool you need to do it correctly.

This type of thinking goes against everything I was taught or did as a Millwright for 33 years. We never wanted a cup and cone style bearing to be a slip fit but to each his own. Carry on. Lol

This isn't heavy industrial machinery. Its a center section in a race car.

And what was the particular reason of no slip fit?.........or was it just because somebody said so........LOL!!!

Think about the bearings on the front spindles of all of our own cars! None of them are press fit. They're not even a tight slip fit. Just a slide on fit. And after a bearing burns up and gouges the spindle, how many of us have just filed down the burrs on the spindle and put another bearing on when there was no resistance at all. These cars are still running at pretty high speed at the track, and I haven't seen any front wheels fly off yet.

IMO apples to oranges. completely different type loads on the bearings.

comparing the load characteristics of a wheel bearing to a pinion bearing??? COME ON MAN! Set your pinion bearing up "loose" like you mentioned that wheel bearing and let me know how that works. I realize the "loose bearing" crowd isn't talking "wheel bearing loose"... but throw some sort of disclaimer on that comparison.

Ive never set up my own rear,but plan to next time.I've learned a lot with this thread.Thanks guys.

Think about what is being torqued down. The torque load on the pinion nut is holding an interference load between the two inside races and either a spacer and shim pack or a crush collar. As much as 150-250 lb. ft. But the turning torque is only 15-25 in. lbs. The inner race is what is locked down, against the pinion gear face and yoke.
All I'm getting at is that the interference fit of the pinion shaft and inner bearing race surface isn't "that" critical, and can be modified for easier setup without compromising strength.

So I ASSume now that I also need a smaller set up outer bearing as well as the inner since I may have to remove it again to get the pattern correct?

The outer bearing is pretty much a slip fit. Spool bearings on my Dana were as well. I've never run a slip fit pinion head bearing. I wouldn't want it sloppy but I'm not sure a tight slip fit would kill it since the rest are like that anyway. I would think the key is make sure it has enough preload. No preload usually leads to movement which leads to distruction.
Doug

I hone the inside of every pinion bearing when I build a rear end. You only remove .0005, then it still knocks off and on, not a slip fit. This let's you use the same bearing you set it up with.
I also measure the case offset of the carrier bearings so I know what to compensate when measuring off the cap pads for pinion depth. But I have depth mic's, gauge blocks, test indicators and a surface plate. Lol

Ok then, all are timken bearings so I would HOPE they would be the same and will find out as soon as I catch up on carb/car work..........thankxxx.......

Last question, are we checking pattern and what not w/dry clean or oiled bearings............

I always lube the bearings with gear oil.
Doug

Cool...........figured you set em up, take em apart for a final clean then reassemble so I`ll clean everything the first time then.......

I use WD on the bearing just so their not dry.

Oiled bearings. Doesn't mean pouring out all over the place. Just wet enough to not damage anything.

Just got swamped w/car work so on the back burner for now but will get back to it asap........thankxxx again......

I've been setting up rear gears for about 15 years now and I thought I would hone a pinion bearing for setup on my 489 chunk with a solid spacer, for the last one I did. I have always measured with my T and D pinion dept gauge and pull the bearing back off and changed shims. With my honed Timken bearing installed, and shims for 25 in lbs of pre-load, my pinion measured only -.001 of the recommended dept. I ran a pattern and it was perfect. I changed to the pressed on Timken bearing and it measured -.004 below the recommended distance and lost All of my preload.I figured it would be closer than that or at least on the + side. I adjusted the preload with shims and ran a pattern. It looked the same as before. Go figure.

I`ll check it several times and do my best to get a good pattern and Jason Pettis said he`d look it over for me if I had any doubts........ Also, been using Valvoline 75x90 synthetic gear lube after break in w/great results obviously so is it ok to break in new gears w/the same? Not polished..........

I have never setup an 8.75" rear. I used a 3.91 pumpkin in my old racer and then sold it and went to an OEM Dana 60 that I got for free!! I never went back and now that I finally got an OTC case spreader, I can build one properly. I suppose the next thing I need to buy is the tools for setting pinion depth, I already have the setup bearings for setting depth and backlash. I also have a home made tool for installing the carrier bearings and recently was given a press.

I just set one up today, with a lot of coaching from a pro. I measured off the cap surface to the head of the pinion, no problem. A little math, and it's perfect.. This only needs the figure on the pinion and a depth mic.

The cap surface is not the centerline of the bearing. I'm not the smartest apple in the bunch but have checked that before and it is not accurate. Not trying to be a smartass either so please take my opinion for what it is worth. I have set up a few hundred rear gear sets in my life time thou... If you get the pinion depth correct on a good set of gears it comes out perfect 99% of the time. Everyone does it a little different and whatever works for you is good. I have the tools due to doing it at work often. It is difficult to spend the money if only doing it a couple times in a life time.

Just got a sacrificial pinion nut today and will mess w/it after my workout then see how it looks pattern wise and go from there.........

for this Thumpman........how's that center section coming? Have had a chance to get it to the track yet .

Well it seams this thread is turning out to be similar to pinion angle debate.First and formost there have been quite a few excellent methods discussed and a lot of good information presented.I can only add rear end setups are very basic and the basic guidelines should be followed.If your only doing a setup once,find a knowledgable shop or person to assist.If your going to do a lot of setups study and follow the manufacture's recommendations,get the proper tooling and work with someone with experience for the first few setups.
We have been doing this for quite some time and have a lot of different tools and fab a lot of special tools and setup bearings.We find some rearend just easily go together with excellent results and some take a lot of time and effort to get them together.Having a set of setup bearings is the easiest and best for 8-3/4 and Danas.The most important being the rear pinion bearing since the side bearing are adjusted with the spanner wheels.A Dana needs both side bearings and pinion bearing to be able to install and remove easily unless your using a Strange S-series with the side adjusters.If you don't have these setup bearings you can lightly machine down the carrier and pinion surfaces from their interference fit to a light press fit to help installation add a quality sleeve/retainer locking sealant to the housing bearing surfaces and inside press area of the bearing on the final installation.
For further discussion we had a customer bring in a carrier that someone turned down the housing and the bearing would just slide on and pull off with your fingers.He wanted to buy a new carrier,we chucked in in the lathe and run a knuraling tool on both side and regained a light press fit,told him to add the retainer sealant and put it together.There is some great stuff from Permatex ,Locktite and others just for press and relax fit parts.

It`s not..............Jason Pettis went motorcycle riding w/a friend who crashed his bike so that took care of that but luckily he`s ok and havn`t heard from Jason as he has health issues to boot. I`ve messed w/it myself and don`t like the pattern, change pinion depth same thing, patters sucks so I know of a guy than can set me up but just lost interest already cos patience is NOT a virtue in my world.........Anyone wanna but a new nodular 8 3/4 and 35 spline axles? After takin a break and talkin w/Kenny(sgcuda),I think I`m real close on the drive side but the coast is still just a bit deep but probably ok so may just run it. I`ll see what Jason sez and go from there.........thankxx guys..........