Holley Sniper to compete with the FiTech stuff

Monte, any commentary on this new Holley Sniper EFI?

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/holley_introduces_sniper_efi_systems/

Complete and self learning, does it come with 8 wide band O2 sensors and a knock sensor?

Is it just me or does this look just like the FiTech EFI?

I wonder if you can run whatever A/F ratio you want at any rpm you want?

Doesn't look near as good as the FiTech IMO. But how is the functionality and does it really support 1200 gas HP?

Looks like a Thermoquad LOL!!! Does look interesting though, can it handle boost?

This is something we have been working on a while. The press release is pretty self explanatory as to what it will do........and YES, it will support 1200hp with the upgraded injectors. But me personally, I consider this a retro-fit kit for street cars and mildly upgraded motors. This is similar to Atomic and some others, that you answer some questions on a touch screen and it is fully self tuning. You can NOT tune it yourself. If I have 1200hp I want to tune it myself and this would not be the system I would pick

Monte, Thanks for the info. Will the sniper handle boost? Would be cool to make this work with a centrifugal supercharger

Supports dual quad set ups. I wonder how it would work on a cross ram Hemi? Too bad I just bought a pair of carbs.

I just put fitech on my 5.7 hemi 1965 coronet street car,i used their fuel command center.haven't got to drive it much but it did start on the first try.fitech system is able to be tuned after initial setup,will handle boost.i think you can also set target a/f ratio.

Well..There goes the monopoly. Shouldn't be long before we see sub $800 tbi. Thanks FiTech!

I'd appreciate if you'd all stop posting any info on this fuel injection stuff..... I'm feeling the money fluttering in my wallet already.

Jay, It's the moth wings not money!

According to their FAQ section it is completely tuneable via laptop.



Kevin

You appear to be talking about the Fitech...........I was referring to Holley. Althought I don't have all the particulars on the Sniper, I don't think it is tunable externally>

I knew it was coming, but haven't been involved with the project directly. It was just released at SEMA. I will get a better look at PRI and I suspect my JEEP will get one for some beta testing........LOL!!!!

The 4150 profile of these will make putting the Vortech on much cleaner than using the bow thru 4500 that came with my set-up. The 4150 hat is a lot smaller. I am still leaning to the Fitech, especially if it more versatile.

With the power you are trying to make, not sure why you are dead set on sticking with the blow through deal. Do it ONCE and do it RIGHT........which is port injection with a throttle body and a fully tunable ECU

Will the Sniper compensate for more "fuel" coming in from another source like meth or a separate fuel stream, by adjusting to the O2?

Blow through is cheap. Relatively speaking. This motor is kinda a sows ear anyways. If the features on the Holley are good enough I would be willing to try one. 1200 crank HP is all the Vortech claims to support, and I was told that the motor on NOS was around 1250 so the power should match the car. My only goal is to play with the street cars around here on the track. That takes a solid 5 second car.

That EFI architecture is the $20K deal you talked about before. Yeah, a 90* 4500 pattern TB and injectors would be nice and probably a lot better, but not cheap.

However, I got one of B1CUDAs dashs... and the race stuff wiring all needs redone and the MSD7 moved out of the passengers way... so I'm not against new car wiring so much anymore.

Funny how the guy I got the blower setup from (Kenny's buddy, I should have known better to walk in there that day bitching about how expensive EFI was after leaving your house) ran a 6.14 up on the mountain that night with a 3900# car and a POS iron 500. Blow through Dominator on E85. The hat is too big for my 499's tall manifold, won't clear the cowl. I think a 4150 form factor might fit under there. Easy enough to check. I'll need an adapter to put a 4150 on the 4500 manifold and for sure some meth.

Anybody wanna buy a nice C&S blow through E85 Dominator? I'll throw in the hat for free.

And let me throw this out there. I talked with FiTech a few months back about their 1200 unit. E85 is good up to the flow limits of the injectors, 1200 on race gas is good to 1200, but 1200 on E85 is not so good. Not enough flow in the internal - proprietary - made for them - injectors. Maybe R&D for bigger units but not in the cards now.

If these can compensate the A/F ratio for meth, why not for a secondary stream of fuel? Say a fogger system with possibly 2 stages of fuel ( fuel and NOS side of the nozzle)? Add the extra fuel when the EFI starts to peter out and let the EFI back off to compensate.

Monte, this is right up your alley and my ratty old 499 a perfect ginnie pig. All you have to do is convince Holley what a great idea this is, but only on my stuff for now. And be able to tweak the code.


Full disclosure, I am cutting a bunch of grass out back waiting for a football game to come on, and I stop in for a fresh beer now and then. Lotsa time to think while mowing. This was one of those stops.

I need to stop now, but there is the question. Exceeding the fuel capability of these units when under boost, by supplementing fuel flow external to the unit injectors

My first impression as well

I'm really close to pulling the trigger on a cross ram Hemi FiTech set-up. Eye candy for the street without the tuning. They have done thier homework on these- guess we'll see if it's true.

You want to buy a bargain basement price EFI system, to put on a motor, that will make possibly 1200hp in a "blow through" configuration and then try and bandaid it, with maybe some OTHER sources of fuel, smaller hat for hood clearance and a bunch of other stuff, that will end up costing you MORE and still not be the optimal setup. Just do it right the first time man.

The EFI was NOT 20K..........I said you would SPEND 20K with all you were wanting to do and that including rewiring the car from one end to the other, which it absolutely NEEDS. Combine EFI with a cobbled 40 year old factory harness and you are talking about more headaches than you will ever be able to get rid of.

My advice now, is the same as then. Do it RIGHT and go full bore port EFI system, or just use the blow through carb with the stuff you have now.

You are still thinking in "blow through" mode. You DON'T need a 4500 TB to do it the right way. You need a 4500 flange elbow that bolts on the intake, then a single blade TB on the elbow, with the port injection.

Monte: You are still thinking in "blow through" mode. You DON'T need a 4500 TB to do it the right way. You need a 4500 flange elbow that bolts on the intake, then a single blade TB on the elbow, with the port injection.

Me: I got that and have seen some nice 90* (or so) elbows out there that I am sure would clear the cowl hood. I agree that doing it right would be better. And a lot more tuning work. You spend $20K on the GTX you supposedly have lately?

Look, I don't minding spending some money on the car to make it nicer / upgrade and have been doing so, cause I like the car. But $20K to put in EFI just isn't in the cards. That is why that same day you told me I need to rewire my car and put $20K into it to get EFI, I bot a complete E85 based blow through carb system off a guy that I saw run that night. Problem is his low deck motor had a low intake on it. Mine is way too tall, but I need to keep it cause it fits the B1 heads that OBTW have too small chambers.

The mount plate that came with it, that won't work with my water pump system is a whole 'nother story.

I think one of these 4150 EFI units will work, at east I am going to try. They won't flow enough E85 at power levels over (1200 x .65 = 780). But E85 is not available within 10+ miles anyways.

Like I said, I was out mowing grass and drinking beer - the additional fuel flow through foggers idea just popped up. I have a lotta grass and time to think while riding around on it.

Been done many times before and works very well.

But in this case I'd have to say if you think it takes $20,000 for a decent EFI system you are mistaken. It does cost more than a decent forced induction carb but there there are none of the carb shortcomings either.

I have a "from scratch" (aftermarket ECU) port fuel injected V8 project coming up this winter, I don't expect to have more than $2000 when all is said in done.

Knowing where to source the parts and doing some of your own fabrication is a huge cost savings.

One last time..........THE EFI DOES NOT COST 20K.

You rattled off this big long list of "I want to do stuff" and I said that would cost you 20 grand to do that to your car. You got mad, because I said I would NOT just wire the EFI into your existing 40 year old factory harness, because it would be nothing but trouble and cause you headaches. So then you went and bought a bunch of stuff you really can't use, in an attempt to "save" money..........how is that working out?

You want just the EFI stuff...........The ECU is $1800 and the harness is $300.............there you go.

And NO, I haven't spent 20K on my GTX lately........but it is costing me about $4000 a month to care for my dad, on top of all my own stuff.............but what does any of that, have to do with what you are doing, other than you just making a wise azz comment.

These throttle body injection systems are for the Chip Foose and Boyd Coddington type cars. Start em up, go to a cruse and go home. As soon as you start making power there limited by the same problems a carb has. Poor fuel distribution, air fuel swings on gear changes, and less atomization.

Port EFI is what yall need.

example 1a.
85 mustang with a 4bbl.
86 mustang with the ho efi

No comparison

Yeah, stuff like weld on EFI nozzle bungs on the intake. You are the guy who pulled out a stock harness and told me how much crap was on it I wouldn't need. Look I like you Monte and just was asking about these little cheap EFIs, now that Holley is in the game. And I remember very well what you were going through that day.

That FiTech is $1500 and has a harness included. And I can put it on the 540 while the 499 gets built. The instructions are kinda weak though.

They say it will control NOS, so I wonder if it could turn on a fuel solenoid at a specific boost, or maybe RPM. Or could use a meth controller be used for that and have a meth stream too. And how fast is the AF correction loop?

You're a Holley guy. Maybe you should figure out how to make their new product compete with and beat the competition. Maybe it already can, who knows.

Guys are running these FiTechs now and they will be driven through winter. It will be interesting to see how they do. And as for a street strip car, I tend to drive at maybe 1/8 throttle most times unless getting it on.

The track is a different deal but at WOT I would expect these to be at their best. I would probably have some trouble from pressurizing a 4150 to maybe 10 PSI before the TB/EFI (has 4500 bolt pattern on TB) into a pretty big single plane 4500 plenum with ginormous runners.

Look at the video at 6:00. I would hate to see part throttle.

http://paceperformance.com/i-22161048-fi...ack-finish.html

You keep missing the point.........These cheaper systems are NOT designed to do what you are trying to do. WILL they work and get by?.......maybe. Is that what they were intended to do.......NO. They are made for the weekend guy who wants to take his carb off on Saturday and be driving with EFI later in the day.

Lets face........you are building a RACE CAR. Now you may drive it on the street, but it's a RACE CAR. Those guys you are talking about racing with in Huntsville, where you say you need a SOLID 5 sec car.......you may need to reword that to solid MID 5 sec car. A couple of those guys are tickling the 4 sec zone.

This type performance level is NOT what these out of the box, $1200, Throttle Body injected systems are for

Monte, you bring a 5.0 / 150 car to a HSV street car race or you will help fill the field running in the mid 5's. The KOS class here has a real chance IMO and has cool guys. I just want to play with them in this wore out horse and have fun, while we still can.

So I ask, WHY NOT? Is it the coarseness or slow response of the control loop on the cheap computer?

Pressurizing probably changes a lot of flow dynamics, especially after the exit from the TB into the big plenum. If this thing can work at say 10 PSI, and still behave well at 2500 street cruise RPM, that may be good enough with safe tuning.

And here is an official apology to Monte:

The $20K number was an estimate I made in my head after hearing you talk of what it would cost total to put a blower on the 499, and EFI was just part of the deal. And I didn't have a blower then. A $5K running on a car deal came along that afternoon with a carb (elec solved), and I kinda forgot about EFI. So $20K stuck, and I just remembered after over a year. And I hope your Dad is doing OK.

Throttle Body injection is the issue. This is a just a carb you don't adjust, that starts easy, will idle and runs to a target air fuel.

You want to try and make 1200hp, with a blown car, that you will have ZERO cylinder to cylinder fuel control with..........not a good plan.

1) cylinder to cylinder control came about due to emissions, mostly idle emissions. Over a certain rpm you are effectively batch fired anyways.

There are plenty of batch fired systems making far more than a mere 1200 hp out there.

If you have that much variation in fuel demand from cylinder to cylinder you have other issues going on that should be addressed.

2) 1200 HP on a TBI style system.. not the hot setup I would agree but I have seen carb blow through systems making far more than 1200 hp and live.

I'd take an adjustable "TBI" system any day of the week over carbs but in this case if you are going to spend a few grand port EFI is the way to go in my opinion.

In some circles they call that buzz kill.

I can see it though as the fuel has to turn the corners properly. It does/did have EGTs, but with an obsolete RacePak.

This would be perfect for anything I hope to own

What is the short comings for the guy that only make 600- 900 HP NA. Not all of us are trying to break records. I was thinking about the system for street/bracket car just for cleaner idle and air fuel monitor. By the time you buy a Dominator and fuel system it's a wash in price.

Here is the thing about Throttle Body injected EFI systems. They are a quick and dirty EFI retro fit. That's it......Fuel is still injected above the throttle blades of the throttle body, just like a carb. You are at the mercy of air flow through the throttle body and distribution of the intake manifold, to distribute everything as it should. Better than a carb?....sure......as good as port injection?.....not even close. So if you are pretty happy with the carb, but want better starting, better idle and better fuel control, these are a decent deal for a street car or milder race car. GREAT for off road stuff, like Jeeps, where terrain changes wreak havoc on a carb.

On a boosted car, where it will be blow through, or on a fairly serious effort nitrous deal......will it WORK?....sure, but it will be mediocre at best and no better than a properly tuned carb from a performance standpoint.

There are MANY misconceptions about EFI. Airwoofer came by my shop, told me what he wanted to do, asked how much it would cost. I related a story of two cars I had done recently. One a two four barrel 600" top sportsman car. The guy brought me a running carbed car and wanted to pick up a running and tuned EFI car. I converted the intake, plumbed all the nitrous, wired the car, replaced fuel system, redid the cooling system, supplied every part of the EFI and everything else, plus tuned the car. He dropped 12K for that. I did a small tire, nitrous car from Canada. Same deal. I did it ALL. He had a single carb and one nitrous system, so it was cheaper, but he still dropped 11K........So given this info and knowing what the blower stuff would cost him, he comes to the conclusion that EFI will cost him 20K. Well maybe he was going to SPEND 20K, but that is NOT what the EFI costs.

It can cost a little, or it can cost a LOT, depending on how you do it, or what you can do yourself. You expect somebody like me to "turn key" it for you.......yes sir, it's going to be high. But so does going to an engine shop for a turn key engine, other than doing some of it yourself. Also WHAT and HOW you choose to do it matter.........Example. I can sell you $400 worth of 160lb Bosch injections, or I can sell you $1100 worth of 160lb Billet Atomizer injectors. The difference? one set is hand built, fully rebuildable and can be tailored. The others are what you get. Some guys want the BEST, and some say they can throw away a few injectors for the $700 difference. So you choose............I can convert your existing manifold, which costs money, because I have to machine bungs, machine manifold, weld it up, fab fuel rails and rail mounts, OR you can buy an EFI ready manifold, pop the injectors in it and be done. You can also put enough sensors on it to monitor EVERYTHING, or for the systems that use GM sensors, go to wrecking yard, hack a TPS, MAP, coolant temp, IAT off a wreck and have nothing in sensors........And so it goes on down the list. So when guys ask "what will EFI cost me".....that is one of the hardest questions there is to answer

This is where I hope to be so I'm going to ask the same question. Is the Fitech or EZ EFI systems a good fit for the 650-700hp crowd on pump gas?

Whats the air flow on the throttle body and how big
of injectors that can go into it... I went with the
Holley Dominator for my 416... in the carb form it was
590hp but I went with injectors that would support 700hp..
its just a matter of air flow and injector size to increase
the HP as long as the pump has the volume to also support it..
my complete system is good to 700hp.. I can say that it starts
great.. just lean in the window and give the key a quick turn..
it idles with no issues even when COLD

I had planned on just using the 1200hp version with a single plane intake, 512, Trick Flow Heads.

Somewhere between 91 and 93 I purchased the TBI Holly kit. After much problems and tech support I asked them to buy it back, no dice. I sent it back it came back with a clean bill of health. I reinstalled it, it still had poor performance, poor response and horrible fuel millage. I sold it to a savvy GM mechanic for a huge loss, he also was unable to make it perform well.
Next new Holley purchase Truck avenger also a failure. Did get refunded from seller. Holley later admitted to missing the mark on that carb.
I have purchased the FI tech GO4 it starts when cold as it wouldn't with the carb and runs well, throttle response is incredible. FItech's commitment to the consumer, to me has been absolutely impeccable. Calling me back at 5:30 in the evening to confirm all my components had been shipped and would be here before Christmas with tracking numbers, an explanation to why two tracking numbers dipped shipped pump their dime. Their tech advice before the sale polite,patient and knowledgeable and well articulated, after the sale thus far not needed!
Holley, MSD, FAST, would have cared less about this price point or level of consumer if FItech had not solidly filled the gap. Now they want in on the action Holley sat on their laurels with the 4150 series of carbs with their porosity problems until BG one upped their carbs casting process which he told them they had problems with. Holley's new fuel pickup mat have you seen the cost my God for that price I can buy a FI fuel tank and pump that fits my 72 duster "not common as Chevy" for less.
I will support FItech due to them catering to me, one of many without deep pockets. IMO
Oh and I believe the sniper is inferior and does not have all of the abilities if the FI tech systems as they Holley states in their literature and it's equally priced.

Does anyone know why the holley sniper and fitech system look virtually 100% identical? there has to be a reason or story here....... I too purchased a holley tbi system in the early 90s and it was a total pos,threw away alot of $$$ in that endeavor.I plan to buy a dual tbi setup from fitech for my hemicar

So I have been out driving and well its good. Its not perfect but it is learning and it seems to be learning quickly. My brother who bought a Fast 2.0 a year ago says he is jelouse of its simplicity and price. Still much to learn about this system.

Although they look similar, they are different in a few ways when you compare the available pics.
These systems look like the injectors are not above the plates from what I can see, but I'm sure Monte knows more about the system than most.
I have to say, I'm really warming up to the holley efi stuff. I have a friend running a dominator system on an older D3 procharged BBC, and it works nice. I had to break a few old habits when learning the Holley system, but I like it now.
I've recently installed a Holley terminator system on a motorhome chassis BBC for the City of Milwaukee police department. The thing was carburated/ governed with a manual choke. Not a great setup.
The terminator is "self tuning." It worked amazingly well with a few minor tweeks with the laptop to limit some areas of the learn table.
The thing starts, runs, and drives like a modern factory efi engine.
If this sniper system works as well as the terminator, it should be a hit!

If you're looking to get that power out of one of these systems with a blower, you will be disappointed. I don't know their calculations for BSFC, but you need to "feed" the blower. 1200 net HP minus the power it takes to drive the blower. Blowers DO take alot of power(fuel) to drive. Figure around 1400hp of fuel to be realistic about getting 1200 net.