Quick Trans ? One last time Pulling it AGAIN

I was getting ready to take the Rampage out and today
the reverse acts like the rear brakes are on... I have
to rev it fairly good to get the tires to move rearward..
it also wants to creep forward even in neutral... I've
checked the cable adjustment a few times.. its right on..
my question is... if the bands or a band is too tight or
loose... could this cause this... I have all the forward
gears and OD..... any ideas... if I cant get this done very
simply I'm calling it quits for DW.. I'm not pulling this thing
apart again... oh yeah.... it worked yesterday when I turned
it around in the driveway.... fluid is full
thanks
EDIT
This is a 518 but the front section is basically a 727

I don't know about reverse but I've had mine creep in neutral with too tight a band adjustment.

Damon

Which band.. the outside or inside
thanks

Possible that the forward (rear) clutch pack is to tight?

low reverse band, unfortunately the one on the inside.

Balky Reverse and drives forward in Neutral is a rear clutch that's not releasing...usually due to a failed Belleville. Has to come out.

Thats the thing about me and trannies.. the terminology
is all wrong... the front drum is the rear or something
like that... the kick down band and they have a double
wrap band(the inside adjuster)... in my books they show
the kick down adjuster the one on the outside.. if I
have to pull this trans again... I'm DONE... no DW for me
what pisses me off is it worked yesterday... it all worked
the way it should
My one book (518 book) calls out the band adjustments
as front and rear band... which is the front

I agree with John... the only time I've seen creep in N is when a clutch pack had welded itself together, or come apart in a fashion that allowed it to drag.... Hard to not forget starting a towed in Dakota in N and diving into the open window to stop it


....and I hope AT LEAST you can find a helper or two and get that sucker out again. Don't f'n give up now!!

....and I always referred to the clutch packs like the newer service manuals: Front clutch, first one you pull out/drum that can explode . Rear clutch, second one in line with the input shaft splined to it's rear retainer. Front band (aka kickdown band) external adjustment. Rear band (aka L/R band) internal adjust.

This trans I bought from the bone yard... it had been
gone through already at some point... it had a sticker
on it from some trans shop... I had pulled the pan and
the front pump... I put in a 727 type pump so the conv
would fit the lugs.. I cant remember but I might have
adjusted the bands and welded in a drain plug for my temp
gauge... the things looked good in there that I could see

dang it Mike why didn't you send it to a tranny guy and have them go through it? with all the trouble you have had it just makes sense. the money spent you would have saved many times over on time and labor.

My trans has always tried to creep in neutral and it works fine. Check your band adjustments front , the easy one and then try the rear " the one inside. Check the pan for junk . I had my valve body give me a fit lately so check the bolts on the valve body too. Don't pull that darn thing out until you know for sure.

I'm gonna try something tomorrow... I'll put the trans
in reverse at the trans without the shift cable and see
what happens.. my safety switch is in the shifter so it
will start

The forward clutch is the rear clutch, the high reverse clutch/direct clutch is the front clutch/drum right behind the pump. Nomenclature.

Sucks to hear Mike, don't give up now. There's still time.

I know this don't help you, but years ago I had a sb 727 that least 3 local shops worked on and it was never right.

I helped my old boss rebuilt a 727 out of his work van one time, long time ago. And I got good at building shorty powerglides for my early dragsters, but I wasn't gonna try to fix that old 727 after so many people worked on it. I got some of my parts from Coan Trans in Ind for my powerglides(I built 4 of them, one for a buddy) and raced with him and his son when we raced super quick.

So I called them "right off the street, didn't even tell them who I was at first" and it was 600 bucks and a core for street fighter sb 727. I took them the 727 nobody could get right and swapped for there trans and is the best I ever drove. Crisp shifts big time and still today over 14 years later. Then I bought a second 727 for my 440 a few years later and I think it went up to 650? this was in 2005 when I built my gold challenger. It still rocks today 10 years later, kills the tires on the shifts, love em.

All these years later they have been great values.

I also used there custom converter too, it was not big bucks at all, they were cheap compared to a 8-9" racing convertor.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

I've rebuilt 3 or 4 727 and one is still in the race
car... but I asked for help with the 518 since I was
never in one... this had reverse yesterday

Unfortunately the only scenario that makes the car go forward in neutral is applied rear clutch. No band adjustment will do this.

The only way it applies is mis assembly or sobering up with the valve body, but since you didn't have the valve body apart it sounds like maybe the spacr ring might be in the wrong side of the Bellville spring?

Sorry Mike I'm at the airport, try to call you tomorrow.

Mike how old is the rebuild ? If it's new check your valve body seating and your band adjustments first. It can't hurt and may save the trip.

I bought this from the bone yard... it had a sticker
on it from a rebuild from from trans company... no clue
when it was gone thru but the oil was good and the filter
looks decent and was nothing in the pan
EDIT
I have a second trans that came out of the car.. it
had problems also... but I went thru this one myself
but now I'm scared to just put it in now with the way
my luck has been running

Sounds like you have a lock up pump and non lock up convertor. Or vice versa. It will almost seem like you have a trans brake and you have to rev it up and then it will hit.

I made this mistake before, scratched my head for weeks.

The pump I put in it worked fine in the first trans... that
trans we forgot a torrington bearing in the OD and after about
400 miles it ate up the OD drum... so that pump worked.. I
got it from Cope.. and I picked up another pump from him for
my spare trans

Don't give up. Just put a 727 in there and be done with it. Car will only get maybe 2mpg better with the 518. Set the cruze control on 3700 and wear ear plugs. Overdrives are overrated.

If I had an overdrive I would still cruise at the same RPM as my car is really happy there(at least with the old motor) so an overdrive would just be there faster lol.

727 727 727 727 F that OD!

Mike this is the used trans, or the one just rebuilt?

Used... bought it at the bone yard... pulled the
pan and the oil was good and almost nothing in
the pan (trash).... I went thru the one that was
in it... I feel sure its good but I have lost my
confidence... I'm gonna run it up to a trans shop
in Almont thats suppose to be good on mopars and have
him take it apart.. if he can get it done in a couple
of days I'll pull the engine/trans

Lmao

I sure dont find it funny

come on... you have to find a little humor in the fact that you've taken a lot of time, carefully plotted and executed your plan..... just to be at crunch time and now wondering if Billy's brothers are going to make it and you aren't! YOU CAAANNN DO IT! kind of reminds me of my situation. 26 passes on a new combo, have had the trans out twice and it's now currently at Pro Trans. I threw in the towel.... At least when it gets done it will be right and I'll be able to have some fun..... (....we always think that for some reason)

That is what came to my mind also (rear clutch not competely disengaged).

I took my spare trans into the shop..this is the one
I rebuilt myself... it should be fine.... but to be
safe I took it in... I'll let them check it out... and
he can have it done in 3 days... he said he'd pull it
apart this evening.... so the engine and trans are coming
out again.. today

Creeping in Neutral due to a tight rear clutch pack isn't all that unusual but the OP also has a bind-up in Reverse which isn't normal.

Band adjustment has nothing to do with transmitting power, bands are brakes used to stop components from moving not to connect components...only clutches do that.

If I lived close by I'd be there to give you a hand Mike. Dave

This is why I brought up mismatched Converter and front pump. I've had it happen and this is exactly what it did to me. Not sure why it does it. But it did.

This pump and this conv were working fine for over
400 miles till the OD drum burn up due to no torrington
in the one thats in the shop now

Thanks... I'm just about ready to pull the engine/trans
but I have to turn the car around... 2 of my buddies will
be here in the morning to help turn it around... I'll pull
tomorrow... then wait for the trans... if he tells me that
everything looks good in the one I did.. then I'll do this
one also as a spare.. I want him to verify the whole thing

Also.. found that its different today from yesterday..
today it moves about 10" in reverse and locks up... put
it in park then back into reverse it moves 10".. I did
this about 20 times trying to turn the car around... then
said F-it and pulled forward onto the hoist to start tearing
things apart ... turn it around tomorrow and pull it out

Mike, I had this happen on a 47RE in a diesel truck one time. It turned out that it had broken the middle ring on the input shaft.

As I remember this middle ring seperates the rear clutch and converter lube circuit. When the ring is broken, the converter lube will actually apply the rear clutch. Normally this isn't a problem because the rear clutch is "on" in all forward gears.

But it can cause the vehicle to move forward in Neutral, and bind in Reverse.

Isn't this the ring that you damaged that I had Tiffany drop off to you? Maybe it is damaged again (or a mismatch of parts not allowing them to go together properly?)

The trans thats in the car is from the bone yard..
I changed the pump and input shaft and put a drain
plug/temp gauge on it... thats all I did so maybe
this thing was broke when I bought it... it just
looked decent inside... if I changed the pump and the
input shaft is in it... could I have broken that ring
but the pump did slide in nice.. I used pins to align it..
but this sounds lie how its acting

Hope you get it worked out Mr. P. You
U definatly deserve a break.

Thanks.... I was checking for a noisey lash but I found
that I have 2 rockers banging into my oil baffle so I
need to redesign both baffles

Just drill a couple holes in the baffles and be done with it where the rockers are hitting.

Thanks... good idea.. but I build new baffles and shortened
the stands and bent the baffle different ..... but I'm still
waiting for a trans... he hasnt even started on it yet... DAMN

Still no trans... I'm giving it 2 more days.... then
I'm gonna have to dropout of DW.. I still have other
things to do on the car and the weight has to be in it
and I still dont have any testing on it... I wont go
without some miles on it.... I'm getting real pissed

Hope it gets sorted out with the trans guy.Guess he doesn't know whats at stake.Post his phone number and we can all blow up his phone betweent 8 and 9 am tomorrow to help if needed.LOL.

He knows that time is short for me... I offered some
extra bucks if he could get it done for me

Any updates Mike? I'm sure hoping you get it fixed and get to go. Jim

No call... no nothing.... I'm dropping out officially
tomorrow... I have a lot of stuff to be done and no
testing at all..... it sucks

I hope you get it going, id love to see the rampage in person at Cordova!

Isnt gonna happen.... tomorrow I'm dropping out to give
someone else a chance... I am betting he hasnt even looked
at it(pull it apart).. which he said he was gonna a week
ago.. believe me I damn sure dont want to give up my money
but its pretty hard to run without a trans

Hope he calls you at 8 a.m. and says its done.You have someone you can ride with for the week?

I sure would hope..... thanks but I have a buddy that
has offered... but if I cant drive my own ride this
year I wont be going.... plenty of work to do before
I start my hunting season... I would like to have it
back together and clean up my shop before hunting...
looks like a bomb went of in there at the moment....
then I think I'm putting time into my 38.... I need a
gen 3 for it... might even put a turbo on it.. thats
just a street ride... for the wife
EDIT
this is a old pic... its much farther along now

that 38 is a sweet ride,hope ya get your trans problems fix

Sorry to hear you're dropping out, Mike. I've been following your progress and was hoping to hear good things about the Rampage during DW.



Tim

I know the feeling Mike, the new 416 W2 motor my Dad and I just built had .013 of thrust clearance after a 37 mile drive. The old 360 is going back in for DW #4. Its getting new valve springs and an oil change this week and going back in the car this weekend.

Dang that sux, you been trying to get the car to drag week for what seems like ten years. There's always next year.

This is the second time I've had to drop out... I guess
its just not meant to be for me... I dont even think I
am gonna try anymore

Mike does it have to be an OD trans? Dont you have a 727 laying around?
After all your engineering and hard work, it would be a terrible waste not to go?
I wish you the best, Don

That over drive not worth effort you will continue to have problems Get a 727 and forget it. So it rev's big deal like stated get ear plugs If your engine is right it won't hurt it Best of Luck on Drag week!

X2! Throw a 727 at it and get'er done Mike. Everything doesn't have to be perfect, look at MoparBilly and his family. They get it done even if it's in the staging lanes.Dave

Mike please please don't give up.

Damon

I built the chassis and mount to fit the 518.. 2 different
locations... and I will stay with the 518... I do like the
OD... I'll get there.... but sure wont be this DW
EDIT
I've been having some minor heath issues so I cant put
that time into the car

I am picking up the trans tomorrow.. its done.. I asked
him how I did... he said everything was perfect except
the wiring inside going to the OD so he rerouted it

so will you make DW??

Nope... already dropped out... I have other things to do
also... doctor stuff... I sure didnt want to give up my
money(non refundable)... me and DW just arent meant to be

sure your meant for DW, consider this a courtship, you and your wife just didn't decide to get married with out a courtship and seeing if you liked each other.

look at it this way, you will be really early getting ready for next year!!

Mike, your health is more important than DW. Sounds like you made the right decision.

I hope its not like dating my wife... we dated 25 years
then we married in 2000.... tomorrow is our anniversary

Happy anniversary!!!!

Sorta like it but much quicker response. next year will be better, what's your thoughts on the Hot Rod magazine power tour??

I think they swing through Detroit?? or is that already done this year?

Its done for this year... my buddy and myself want to
do at least part of it... if its in the area

Hi Mike,

Hope all is well, Just checking in on the progress?? All is working fine I hope??

Still havent put it in.. had some other things to do..
I should get to it starting tomorrow... but everything
is well enough.. thanks