440 engine build w/existing drivetrain

ok so last b motor broke a crank (see other posts for build) and now I have a 440 block which has been bored .030/align bored/ honed with a torque plate.The steel crank has been turned to 20/20.

I already have reconditioned iron heads (arrowhead 906 2.14/1.81) I might as well use since I've had them 12 years...

I already have a new cam/lifter set that I've had for just as long, here are the specs:

Racer Brown #STH-42
lift intake/ exhaust .520
.050 duration: intake 254 exhaust @ .008 300
lobe centerline 105 intake 111 exhaust
lobe separation 108.00
advanced 3.0

I will be re-using the six pack carbs I had on my 383 that have mods and worked flawlessly.

please give me some ideas for a build which includes the existing 4 speed and Strange s-60 w/ 4.10's and strange-trac (tru-trac)

I am not opposed to selling the finished crank and buying a rotating assembly, but not interested in more than 500 cubes since I am on a budget

I drive this car on the street as well as to and from the track for test & tube nights FOR FUN ONLY


ALL FEEDBACK GOOD AND BAD WELCOMED

The bigger C.I. motors will spin the rea tires a lot easier than the stock stroke motors will That being said I changed my low deck stroker motor in my old pump gas Duster from making 612 HP at 511 C.I. to making 727 HP at 518 C.I. over several years, it went 10.69 at 612 HP and 9.993 at 727 HP weighing 3450 lbs. with me in it through the 3 inch exhaust, using 91 octane Oregon pump swill with the air cleaners on Six paks rock with stock 440 port size heads , M.W. size ports make more power than the 440 size ports do 440 blocks have thin main webs so be real careful on your selection of parts, tune up and HP goals 505,(4.350 x4.250 stroke) 511(4.375 x 4.25 stroke) and 512 C.I.(4.380x4.250 stroke) motors rock But you can break them pretty easy in a 440 block, not so easy in a 400 block

How fast you wanna go? Call me and let's chat some more - finally back in the states for a couple of weeks.

Take the old one apart yet?

Don't include the sale of your current crank in the budget for a stroker rotating assembly , .020/.020 crank isn't going to be a big seller .

If I were you, I would get ahold of some reconditioned rods and KB hyper Pistons, and finish it off / get back on the road with what you have. Unless funds and time are not an issue, then I would build a stroker with better heads.

Exactly.

Get clear on budget and time. You go stroker, you will be starting from scratch.

Okay so I am leaning towards this kit from 440 source..440 >> 500. (4.150" stroke/6.760" rod) Approximate Bobweight: 2200-2250 Feedback?

Your current engine is All set to Go. Use that, with those 906 heads. If you go Stroker, your going to start from scratch and want better heads, and other upgrades. Just be prepared for that.

Don't they have a pump gas 512 C.I. kit with 4.25 stroke and 7.100 long BB Chevy type rods If so and it comes in a compression ratio you like buy it Lighter rods, pistons and bobweight, revvs faster and spins the tires easier AKA, go for the longer stroke with the smaller 2.200 rod journal sizes

Your choices should be based on your future plans. If you are one of us that isn't satisfied with the power you have for long, then build the short block strong enough to take a lot of upgrades. That would mean build it with a light bob weight, forged pistons, flat tops, so you can put some smaller chamber heads (Edelbrocks, SRs, etc) down the road, deep valve pockets for a lot bigger cam, aluminum or high grade steel main caps, etc. It isn't too tough to build a short block at a reasonable cost that can handle over 600 hp in a 440 or 750+ in a 400. A light rotating assembly is a very good thing. Give that a lot of consideration. These stock blocks (440)are a bit fragile and anything you can do to reduce stress is a good thing.
If you can within your budget, go with a 400 block for anything 600 hp or stronger down the road. They are much tougher than a 440 block. That 440 block has some good value, as they are getting scarce. You might be able to go low deck at a reasonable cost depending on how you do selling some of what you have. The 400 based motor will be lighter as well. That can vary, but every pound is worth something.
If you are willing to accept the power level that the current cam and heads produce are all you ever want, then go Hypereutectic pistons in the 440 block for the best economy. Be careful with the tune up (never lean, never too much timing, 9.5 max compression) and it ought to live a very long life. My car club buddy has a 440 motor like that that I originally built back in 1975! It has never had the heads or pan off and runs great to this day.

If you are serious about fun only, it would be no fun to build a 500" engine and then start breaking clutch and driveline parts. I would use the parts you have and add h-beam rods and forged flat-top pistons. now you have a shortblock that will live through missed shifts and a shot of nitrous if you so desire. I recommend Rob Nixon at Smythe Automotive for any machine or assembly work you may need.

Thats basically the kit I used to get my 493. But I agree with the others that if you go stroker you will spend more money. And if you do go the stroker way I would want better heads and cam to take advantage of the more cubes. No sense to add the cubes and then choke them some and not take advantage of the power it can make. Good luck which ever you decide. Ron

I just thought it would be cheaper to just buy the 440-500 stroker kit from 440 source $2300 free shipping and go with that.Am I reading something wrong on their website?

ANY TIME the word stroker is mentioned in this forum people bring up head flow and camshaft size. The attitude here is to build any engine to its maximum potential, as this is primarily a race page.

If you pay attention to the words being flung around you might get the opinion that it is actually harmful to the engine not to max it out. Nothing could be further than the truth.

Chuck Senatore said, in his big Mopar engine book, that one should build the biggest shortblock one can afford. I agree with his idea. Once the shortblock is built, one may not have money left over for better heads or camshaft. They are bolt-ons.

I like to remind people that 500 cubic inch Cadillac engines (4.306 x 4.31) ran just fine with heads that might have flowed 230cfm, like a 906 head, and camshafts with less than 0.500 lift and no more than 215 degrees duration at 50 lift. Olds 455s, with their smaller bores and 4.25" strokes, were in the same league. There were others, these are just examples.

The 440Source stroker kit has been used dozens of times by Board members and is a very nice way to build a big shortblock to be driven now, hopped up later. As with ANY aftermarket kit, dimensions should be checked before assembly. But all of the aftermarket stuff has been increasing quality over the years and it usually isn't necessary to make many changes to the kits the way they are delivered. Wrist pin clearances and valve guide clearances seem to be the main areas.

A larger engine will make more torque in proportion to the displacement increase. Because the engine is airflow limited, the torque peak will be at a lower engine rpm. This would be inversely proportional to the displacement increase.

The airflow-limited engine will make the same horsepower, but at a lower rpm. The torque curve will be higher until peak torque, then fall off more quickly.

You will be astonished by how strong the engine feels off the line or around town. You may have to change your driving style.

So, bottom line, build the engine you want to build. After you've driven for a while, you may want to increase head flow and/or camshaft duration, but it's up to you.

R.

thanks for the insight/advice

thank you dogdays, i think i just made my choice!

MarkZ528 call me about your drums & slicks...

Dag it feels like I've been saving money forever now....I looked at my last post about the stroker kit: 7/7/15 and still have not ordered! I had it all decided and money ready to go, hell in my mind it was already built!

finally cash in hand and ready to place a call. Moparts members please advise which company to order from? Mancini? 440 source? Indy? still sticking to a 500/505 440 based kit. i need the kit, timing chain & cover,oil pan/pickup/water pump & housing,oil pump & gaskets, as well as 6 pack intake.
just tryin to build a fun toy that will last and not break the bank!

I like and use the Summit brand 1970/71 Street Hemi and 440 6 pak oil pan and 6 pak 3/8 oil pickup in any 1966 to 1971 B and E body B or RB motors, stock strole or big stroke it is a exct replica of the stock 1970/71 6 quart (+1 for the filter)Street Hemi and 440 6 pak cars Reasonably priced and fits well also, nothing to dislike
As far as the stroker kit I would use the 440 Source or one of the others you like and trust the best I buy parts and custom build my own kits That way I get exactly what I want, longer rods, lighter weight pistons and the compression ratio I want with my heads

Yes!!! I agree!!!!!

Been there, done that. If you don't want to open up a huge can of worms I would stick with a 440 ci. I built a monster 505 ci and have been upgrading driveline parts ever since.

im gonna be using my six pack setup off my old motor so there's no chance I'll ever be playin with the nitrous. The car already has the Strange S-60 Dana with Spicer 4:10s from Cass (Dr. Diff)as well as their driveshaft with the Chevy u-joints. The 4 speed is tough enough on it's own, so what is there to break with a 505?

sorry guys: many times I just assume that people knew my last combo and how great it ran for how simple it was, and i was breakin crap all the time, hence the upgrades....

Yes,
my 727 was not up for the task of over 650 ft lbs of torque so I pulled it this fall and upgraded several parts within the trans. I also replaces my 10 year old U joints.

Having a significant amount more torque unveiled the shortcomings of old stock parts.

thanks for all the advice, my head is now spinning nut I will buy a kit Monday

I agree since he is running a stick shift. But I will say that my 63 was running mid 11's with my old 440 and now has run 10.70's and since its an auto car I have not broke any drivetrain parts since I put the 493 in the car in June 2011. Course I dont race every weekend as I only race about twice a year. Its mostly a street driven car that I cruise around in taking it easy most of the time. I am using an 8-3/4 but I want to change to a Dana when I can afford too. My driveshaft uses the bigger U-joints and I bought it from Mancini as I believe the company that made it was called "Victory". Ron

so even if i already have the upgraded S-60 and driveshaft with the 1350 joints you would stay 440?

my thought was to buy the 505 kit from say 440 source, use my 906 arrowheads that have been in a box for 10plus years. use the racer brown cam i mentioned above. and be good to go?

Weak parts and traction break parts, not HP I did learn that on racing a 4 speed car that you must feed the driveline devil, you can feed it tires, clutches,gears, tranny parts, U joints or you pick the part you want to fail or replace often
AKA, it won't break parts when it is spinning the tires at the command of your right foot Been there done that with my last pump gas street car that ran low tens and high nines in the 1/4 mile

I sent this email to Mancini as well as 440S and Mark Z. If anyone has an opinion, I welcome it! (that's why we're here,right?)


I need a rotating assembly, Car is a 3840 lb b-body 4-speed with an Strange S-60 4.10 gears (spicer) also upgraded driveshaft with HD 1350 joints. Lost my forged crank in a 383 zero decked block,78cc iron heads and TRW domed 12.5-1 pistons. intake side was milled to match the six pack intake.

I now have a 70's 440 block line bored, torque plate honed 0.30 and need a rotating assembly. planning on using arrowhead reconditioned heads (2.14 and 1.81) been in the box for 12 years now. I have a Racer Brown cam #STH-42 Hydraulic 5.20 lift (intake/exhaust) and 254 duration at 0.50" lobe separation intake 105 exhaust 111 separation 108.00 advanced 3.0

I'm going to use the six pack setup again (need an RB Edelbrock 6-pack intake) as well as this Racer brown Cam/lifter that I already have.
I need a recommendation as to which stroker kit you would use (MRE440493F84-6B3d) or a 512 kit, or other?

I will also need windage tray,oil pump/oil pan/oil pickup (3/8 or 1/2?),HD timing chain(double roller or true roller?)/chain cover, water pump housing and water pump, and distributor (Mallory Unilite is what I had in the 383)

Goals: I'm looking to build the biggest short block I can afford to enjoy now. The only thing I may add later are budget aluminum heads...


Thanks,
John
513-312-2038

thoughts anyone?

4.250 stroke crank with 2.200 BB Chevy rod journal sizes, 7.100 long BB Chevy H beam forged steel rod, shelf piston with either a reverse dome or a dish that will give you between 10.0 to 1 to 10.7 to1 compression ratio with the aluminum heads you buy or lower the compression ratio to no more than 9.5 to 1 with your iron heads True roller timing set and degee the cam you select Six paks rock My last 400 block 518 C.I. stroker six pak motor made 720 HP with 712 Ft lbs on Oregon 91 octane pump swill That baby put many smiles on my face as well as made the old phincter pucker more than once on the street

yes

your head choice .... sounds like you wantto build a 500 inch shortblock and you couldn't have chosen a worse head to run ...

oh wait , you aren't using junkyard fresh 516's ...

And why are we putting Chevy garbage in a Mopar engine?

440source.com has a lot to offer and knowledge.

Because I've been building and racing Mopars a lot longer than Brandon has been selling his kits I've sold Brandon parts long before he opended his business I'm really glad that he did open and continues to operate 440 Source We Mopar racers need all the help we can get Now as far as "chevy" parts I don't buy anything from GM to use in any of my Mopar motors, it is all race parts design to fit into Chevy motors also, at a lot better price Using a smaller rod journal sizes reduces the rod weight and bearing speed and doesn't dangerously harm the strength of the forged steel crankshafts or rods Selecting the best parts available to use when desiging racing motors combination with the best parts availble is the smartest thing to do when racing, correct

when extra money permits..... i will upgrade to aluminum heads, i realize iron heads are a thing of the past. I want to build the biggest short block I can afford now, and look forward to "weekend upgrades" later!

And why are we putting Chevy garbage in a Mopar engine?

440source.com has a lot to offer and knowledge.

Yes, 440 Source has a great website, where's the offers and knowledge??? No telephone or email replies. not trying to be rude but they have not responded to my email or telephone message.

4.250 stroke crank with 2.200 BB Chevy rod journal sizes, 7.100 long BB Chevy H beam forged steel rod, shelf piston with either a reverse dome or a dish that will give you between 10.0 to 1 to 10.7 to1 compression ratio with the aluminum heads you buy or lower the compression ratio to no more than 9.5 to 1 with your iron heads.


who offers this crank selection?

Ohio Crankshaft CO, Molnar, Scat and several other crank companys or importers names that are not popping up in my head right now The last three 4.250 and 4.300 stroke cranks that I used in my latest stroker builds where originally 4.150 forge steel imported stroker cranks with BB Mopar rod journal sizes that I bought on the cheap and I had them offset ground down to 2.200 and offset ground to 4.250 and 4.300 stroke here locally by a good machine shop
Lots of different ways to accomplish your goals
I've also bought old top fuel cranks with 4.500 stroke with the stock Mopar rod journal sizes and had them ground down and offset destroked to 4.375 Lots of choices out there

Hmmm. Not sure where to start w this comment....

It wasn't me who said it!

I like and use the Summit brand 1970/71 Street Hemi and 440 6 pak oil pan and 6 pak 3/8 oil pickup in any 1966 to 1971 B and E body B or RB motors, stock strole or big stroke thumbs scope it is a exct replica of the stock 1970/71 6 quart (+1 for the filter)Street Hemi and 440 6 pak cars thumbs scopeReasonably priced and fits well also, nothing to dislike shock


Could you provide me with a part number on this please? I looked on their website and could not find it?

The 440 source 500 inch stroker kit is a big bang for the buck. 3 years ago I built a pump gas 500 with a similar size cam and hand ported 906 heads, single dominator, 3000 stall, 3400 lbs 69 road runner and it went 10.90 with a little carb jetting. guy has never had any problems, just get in it and race.

Sure you can do that. I am sure with all the opinions everyone has given you your head must be spinning like crazy. And its all good advise but everyone builds their engines to what they like so many opinions are different.
If you want to build the 505 with 906 heads and the Racer Brown cam then go ahead and build it. Like Dog Days said it will still have much more torque and power as it will run no matter what bigblock head you put on it. You can always upgrade the heads and cam later. But the advise I would give here is to do your homework and think about what upgrades if any you plan to do later so if you change heads you will still have the comp you need and if you change the cam later you will want to be sure you will have enough piston to valve clearance. Just take the time to figure if you plan to make changes later and consider it in your build so it will be less work later if you plan on upgrades.

Thanks everyone for listening to all my ignorant questions, I placed my order with 440s last night, here's what I bought:

440 >> 512. (4.250" stroke/7.100" rod) Stroker Kit

440.512.5060

4.350
(.030 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.015"

84CC 86CC 88CC

10.05 9.89 9.74

I decided to use my existing six pack (will need an RB intake)

and arrowheads that I already have that are 906 with larger valves (until I save for 2 more years to get some Sidewinders)

Need advice on a damper brand (stock pulley location)(open to offers)

and Timing Chain set brand/model,
water pump/housing combo(which brand,model)
Oil pan/pickup recommendation

Hey there are no ignorant questions as thats why most are here. To try and help each other out. None of us know it all and your questions are good questions that you were looking for help with. I will say I buy most of my parts from Mancini as they treat me good with good service. I bought my timing chan and gears from them as I bought the chain and gear set where the crank gear has a bunch of keyways to help when degreeing the cam. I also bought my Moroso oil pan and windage tray from them. Here is the link to the balancer I use on my street/strip car. Its worked great for 5 years so far and all the stock pulleys lined right up and is SFI aproved. Ron

http://www.manciniracing.com/prosport1.html

Thanks, it's a toss up between that one and the 440s one. Did you use studs or bolts on the main caps?

If you want to have the block aligned hone then switch to studs, if not don't Same thing on switching to after market main caps
I tried to find the Summit part number for thier Hemi/440 six pak oil pan, I looked on one of the ones I have left in the shop and the white box(it is shipped in another bigger brown cardboard box) it came in doesn't have a part number on it I treid searching Summits web site also and couldn't find it now You might want to call them and tell them your looking for thier 1970/71 6 quart oil pan for the 1970/71 440 six pak and Hemi motor. Order thier 3/8 oil pickup for the 6 pak motor with the pan also Don't switch to the 1/2 inch pickup, it isn't worth it IHTH

thanks for the advice Cab! New toys arrived from FedEx tonight, Yay!
balancer? pro race brand or 440s?

mancini waterpump/housing combo or 440s?

If you ment me I used ARP main studs in my eng. Ron

thanks!

If you want to have the block aligned hone then switch to studs, if not don't twocents Same thing on switching to after market main caps up
I tried to find the Summit part number for thier Hemi/440 six pak oil pan, I looked on one of the ones I have left in the shop and the white box(it is shipped in another bigger brown cardboard box) it came in doesn't have a part number on it shockI treid searching Summits web site also and couldn't find it now confusedYou might want to call them and tell them your looking for thier 1970/71 6 quart oil pan for the 1970/71 440 six pak and Hemi motor. Order thier 3/8 oil pickup for the 6 pak motor with the pan also up Don't switch to the 1/2 inch pickup, it isn't worth it twocents IHTH

does it fit for stroker?