Moparts
Bracket engine, What would you build and why?
Posted By: 1jeff
Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 04:07 AM
New guy to the forum, hello all!
I bought a 70 Duster, older Allston chassis super pro bracket car late season 2011 and the engine blew fall of 2012. BME rods with 532 1/2 passes lol, should have known better. I'm now in the planning stages for a new engine/set up.
The car ran 10.0x in good air. 440 close if not stock 452's 280 @ .050 590 lift cam, 2560 with me in it, 4.56 gears, glide, 14x32 goodyears. The car was really consistent to 1,000 ft. but would sometimes throw me a number or 2 the last 320. Video tapped the tach, appx. 5,000 at the hit, shift at 5,600, trapped around 6,500.
I know there are many variables to inconsistency on the big end. I have to build a engine so I would like to spend the money wisely.
Big cube engine = more torque each power stroke, smaller cube = more power strokes? Is a heavier car less affected by wind changes on the top end? Advantage to having a set up that runs better on the back half than it does the front half?
Thanks in advance for any input!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 04:41 AM
More than likely it wasnt the engine.. might have been
the fuel supply system... lite cars are ALWAYS best..
they are easy to make fast and easier on parts....
welcome
EDIT
Since its already set up for a big block stay with
that... some of your parts might work on the new build
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 04:49 AM
Best bang for the buck....400 or 440 stroker, Indy EZ heads, and 440 Source Stroker kit, and a girdle with ARP studs.
That is the combo I run at 512 cubes on pump gas, its an animal....We make 730hp on pump gas with it....
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 04:59 AM
It's all about consistency with bracket racing. IMO, big inch NA motor shifting at lower ( but more consistent ) rpm's. Good solid back half with big tires. Stay in the 10's or 11's. Bigger /heavier cars are less effected by cross winds and often have more consistent ( but slower ) 60 ft times. Most consistent winners in bracket racing usually run about 1/2 second slower than their car is capable of running. Different mind set for real bracket racers. I could never quit go there - always wanted to go as fast as I could. Hence, always making changes. A breeding ground for inconsistency.
Posted By: J_BODY
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 05:03 AM
Hard to argue with what Dragula suggested.... I basically did the same route when I had my Mirada only with MP Stage VI heads (not recommended) and skipped the stud girdle. 4.15 stroke, lots of "off the shelf" pistons available, tons of torque and low rpm will make it scoot and live a long healthy life.
Posted By: 1jeff
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 05:45 AM
New engine will be a big block for sure. I was realy thinking indy ez heads, but the new trick flows have peaked my interest. Might have to wait and see how they actually compare.
Like I said in the original post, I'm in the planning stages. I would love to have had another season to gather information, but it didn't work that way. Just got my feet wet lol.
Bracket racing is a lot more competitive than it was 20 years ago, in my mind. I don't think you can afford to leave anything on the table.
Thanks again for the input and keep it coming!
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 06:12 AM
With the above listed parts if your not running VERY low 9's something is wrong. These are great times for us Mopar lovers.
Posted By: J_BODY
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 07:00 AM
Quote:
With the above listed parts if your not running VERY low 9's something is wrong. These are great times for us Mopar lovers.
come to Vegas and tell me that!!
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 07:25 AM
Quote:
New engine will be a big block for sure. I was realy thinking indy ez heads, but the new trick flows have peaked my interest. Might have to wait and see how they actually compare.
Like I said in the original post, I'm in the planning stages. I would love to have had another season to gather information, but it didn't work that way. Just got my feet wet lol.
Bracket racing is a lot more competitive than it was 20 years ago, in my mind. I don't think you can afford to leave anything on the table.
Thanks again for the input and keep it coming!
For sure on your last 2 sentences, and having a consistent car is only half of it. Almost gotta race on a full time basis ( like every weekend)to even have a chance out here. Forget about having a real fast car. That's not a part of the equation. Consistent reaction times under .030 might get you 2-3 rounds and your car better run with in .050 of your dial - every run. Did I mention a weather station. You will need one. You will see 4-5 guys that will dominate your group / track. It's their life and they live at the track. Happiness to them is not a low ET. IT's the same ET. You are ether very dedicated or your fodder. No in-betweens. Don't mean to paint a dismal picture, but that's what bracket racing is these days. No, you can't leave anything on the table.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 02:17 PM
As big of a motor as you can possibly afford, on alcohol.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 02:24 PM
I would go low deck, 451 set up for pump gas with aluminum small port heads. Pretty much everything you now run (driveline) will work, plus it will be cheap to race. Very low maintenance , consistent and 10.00 numbers.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 02:29 PM
Quote:
As big of a motor as you can possibly afford, on alcohol.
I agree on the alky, but believe in staying smaller for your deal. Alky will allow you to run the motor warm, so there is less draw on the cooling system and electrical, plus consistency. E85 would be my choice. Just be sure and buy a test kit, and a buy it by the barrel when you find a consistent batch.
Posted By: dvw
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 03:44 PM
Quote:
Quote:
New engine will be a big block for sure. I was realy thinking indy ez heads, but the new trick flows have peaked my interest. Might have to wait and see how they actually compare.
Like I said in the original post, I'm in the planning stages. I would love to have had another season to gather information, but it didn't work that way. Just got my feet wet lol.
Bracket racing is a lot more competitive than it was 20 years ago, in my mind. I don't think you can afford to leave anything on the table.
Thanks again for the input and keep it coming!
For sure on your last 2 sentences, and having a consistent car is only half of it. Almost gotta race on a full time basis ( like every weekend)to even have a chance out here. Forget about having a real fast car. That's not a part of the equation. Consistent reaction times under .030 might get you 2-3 rounds and your car better run with in .050 of your dial - every run. Did I mention a weather station. You will need one. You will see 4-5 guys that will dominate your group / track. It's their life and they live at the track. Happiness to them is not a low ET. IT's the same ET. You are ether very dedicated or your fodder. No in-betweens. Don't mean to paint a dismal picture, but that's what bracket racing is these days. No, you can't leave anything on the table.
My car is a relatively quick and heavy car (9.20's @3340) with a big motor. Running only 13 events last year I won 3 and went to the semis 2 times. It is handicapped with a foot brake and 10.5x29 tires. So it can be done.
Doug
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 03:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
With the above listed parts if your not running VERY low 9's something is wrong. These are great times for us Mopar lovers.
come to Vegas and tell me that!!
Ya we never have any bad air at Pittsburgh Raceway Park. 
We aren't some east or west coast super tracks here either. Some members won't even hit the track when the air isn't in "new bests" territory. 
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 04:03 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
New engine will be a big block for sure. I was realy thinking indy ez heads, but the new trick flows have peaked my interest. Might have to wait and see how they actually compare.
Like I said in the original post, I'm in the planning stages. I would love to have had another season to gather information, but it didn't work that way. Just got my feet wet lol.
Bracket racing is a lot more competitive than it was 20 years ago, in my mind. I don't think you can afford to leave anything on the table.
Thanks again for the input and keep it coming!
For sure on your last 2 sentences, and having a consistent car is only half of it. Almost gotta race on a full time basis ( like every weekend)to even have a chance out here. Forget about having a real fast car. That's not a part of the equation. Consistent reaction times under .030 might get you 2-3 rounds and your car better run with in .050 of your dial - every run. Did I mention a weather station. You will need one. You will see 4-5 guys that will dominate your group / track. It's their life and they live at the track. Happiness to them is not a low ET. IT's the same ET. You are ether very dedicated or your fodder. No in-betweens. Don't mean to paint a dismal picture, but that's what bracket racing is these days. No, you can't leave anything on the table.
My car is a relatively quick and heavy car (9.20's @3340) with a big motor. Running only 13 events last year I won 3 and went to the semis 2 times. It is handicapped with a foot brake and 10.5x29 tires. So it can be done.
Doug
Pretty awesome. Out here, if you can end the season in the top 10 you are in an elite group. You get a "top ten" tee shirt - for free . Motor: I like the low deck ( 400 ) idea, but would punch to 498"s. Easy 10's with a mild roller and mild ported eddy's.
Posted By: BradH
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 05:25 PM
Quote:
The car ran 10.0x in good air.
You don't mention if that's still your performance expectation, or if you want to go significantly faster (assuming the car's legal for 9.99 & quicker).
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 06:02 PM
Most of you guys race where your WORST air is about as good as we get. The BIGGEST factor is the Barometer. As you go up the TRUE barometer goes down(we generally see mid to high 27ish barometers which would send the east coast guys to the hardware store for plywood and supplies thinking a hurricane is coming.), just no way around that period. Just simple science, not rocket science. Guess it is something flatlanders just don't get. Then again they do not get to wake up every morning surrounded by 360 of mountains either.
AS for the question at hand. A 451 or 511, lots of off the shelf parts for both combos and plenty of proven combos out there.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 07:03 PM
Quote:
Most of you guys race where your WORST air is about as good as we get. The BIGGEST factor is the Barometer. As you go up the TRUE barometer goes down(we generally see mid to high 27ish barometers which would send the east coast guys to the hardware store for plywood and supplies thinking a hurricane is coming.), just no way around that period. Just simple science, not rocket science. Guess it is something flatlanders just don't get. Then again they do not get to wake up every morning surrounded by 360 of mountains either.
AS for the question at hand. A 451 or 511, lots of off the shelf parts for both combos and plenty of proven combos out there.
Good air here is in a bottle.
Posted By: rickseeman
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/04/15 07:28 PM
A pump gas 512 stroker kit from 440 source would be a good replacement for what you have. Aluminum heads would be nice. I've never had a consistent car so I can't help you there.
Posted By: 1jeff
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/05/15 12:44 AM
gregsdart ,
Care to elaborate on the keeping it small for my deal? Don't disagree by any means, just curios. I am extremely interested in the theory.
Badass car by the way!
Posted By: 1jeff
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/05/15 01:14 AM
I do want to make the car capable of running faster. How I am going to use that has yet to be determined, I foresee a throttle stop in my future. I do not have a power or et goal in mind. The car will cert., it has. I don't like the heat, wearing a 3 layer suit in the middle of the summer does not appeal to me. But I can if I want to!
My local tack switched to Ihra this year and is starting a index program, one class will be 10.00. Yep, interested! I haven't talked to the track or really looked at the Ihra rule book to see what the differences are.
Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 4oo will take some weight out and a good set of heads are going to make some more power. I am a bracket racer and have not been bitten by the go faster bug. Running super at my local track I'm being chased 99% of the time and I'm good with that. Lots of low 9, 8 and 7 second cars. I refuse to spend that kind of money to bracket race. If I can't be competitive the car will be for sale.
I understand from everything I've read that alcohol is more consistent. I know absolutely nothing about it. How bad is the learning curve?
Posted By: RodStRace
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/05/15 06:15 PM
It's been a while, but alky if you can get consistant fuel easily is a better route.
The plugs are harder to read, 02s can fool you until you get a good baseline, but it's much more forgiving and the sweet spot is wider, making it better for all day events where you run at 10AM, 4PM and 9PM.
You will want that weather station to include water grains too. It's more affected by this than gas is.
I don't know about east coast weather, but out here if you want to run a 10.00 index, you want you be able to run a 9.8 or faster in the worst expected conditions (hot, muggy, low baro) and drop what it takes to run the number no matter what. Given you have a car, you should be able to plug in the numbers and come up with a target HP/torque/RPM and build with those expectations.
There are plenty of BB combos that can do the job, you have to decide what amount of money, maintenance and longevity you are willing to suffer.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/05/15 06:57 PM
My experience, as a pump gas racer, watching the alky guys goof around with that fuel and the problems they have, and breaking out the fuel testers and such...Ain't worth it. All my stuff runs on the same fuel. The ATV, the generator, and the race car...can't beat that. And I only need to take 10g for a weekend of racing vs an entire drum and all the pumps and BS. We won the season on E10 93...I won three big races that year, and anything can be made consistent with time and good parts...
I am simple, and plenty of MBB combo's will make more than enough HP to kill a stock block on pump gas with today's heads. If you have a race fuel motor already, we have found Snow's water injection to work really well on 93 and 14:1...I would go that route long before I went to alky...And we have never had any cooling issues on pump, even round robin.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/07/15 12:54 PM
Somehow my last posts got deleted, so here is a repeat.
My thinking on going small motor was based on getting max life pout of a motor that will not overpower the tires even on a junk track, yet still make enough power to keep you at a 10.00, out of the expensive 9.99 or faster zone. One combo that would be dirt cheap would be to go with a 400 block, 7.10 rods, Ross 1.120 ch flat tops, a 383 crank cut to 3.54 stroke for 426 cubes. The biggest expense are pistons and rods, somebody will probably give you a crank! Compression with flat tops would be about 10.00, for pump 93. A 426 with a set of small port heads ought to make great power and still shift at 6400 rpm, about perfect with your current gears.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/07/15 01:02 PM
gregsdart ,
Care to elaborate on the keeping it small for my deal? Don't disagree by any means, just curios. I am extremely interested in the theory.
Badass car by the way!
Thanks!
Later you mentioned going faster. If you are going to cert the car for 8.50, then for a budget motor I would go with a 400 block, 4.25 stroke for 512 cubes, 12.5 compression on E85, and I would seriously look at the new trickflow heads and intake. The combo ought to make great power down low which works well with a glide, and make your car about as fast per $$ as you can build. [img]http://[/img]
Posted By: Jacob Pitt
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/07/15 02:50 PM
You could get 100 different answers for this question really, but it all comes down to what you want out of it. If you want a low maint deal that will run good but you're not concerned about rotating the earth I would go with a .030 or .055 over stock block 440 with a half fill and main studs. Buy a good stock stroke 440 rotating assembly with flat top pistons. When I say good I mean forged crank, rods, and pistons. A set of RPM heads and decent intake with a 950 gas or e85 carb. Build it to about 11to1 compression for pump gas or e85 with a small roller around .650ish. This combo in your light car would easily run 9's and would run forever. But that's just what I would do.
Posted By: Eric
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/07/15 04:30 PM
The Arrow has a lowdeck 499 with CNC S/R's... Indy intake.. Comp .650 .. H/S rockers and a AED 1000cfm 4150. It's only around 12:1 and a pretty basic piece. With a glide 1.76 first gear and a UCC 5800 stall converter it's run deep in the 5.50's on the launch control. Weighs #2330 with driver.
Posted By: 1jeff
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/08/15 01:03 AM
My experience, as a pump gas racer, watching the alky guys goof around with that fuel and the problems they have, and breaking out the fuel testers and such...Ain't worth it. All my stuff runs on the same fuel. The ATV, the generator, and the race car...can't beat that. And I only need to take 10g for a weekend of racing vs an entire drum and all the pumps and BS. We won the season on E10 93...I won three big races that year, and anything can be made consistent with time and good parts...
I am simple, and plenty of MBB combo's will make more than enough HP to kill a stock block on pump gas with today's heads. If you have a race fuel motor already, we have found Snow's water injection to work really well on 93 and 14:1...I would go that route long before I went to alky...And we have never had any cooling issues on pump, even round robin.
Thanks for the reply!
The last engine would run on pump, 10:1 comp. with 280@ .050 cam. The po mixed 50/50. I drained the cell and filled it with 93. I've heard many say Race gas is more consistent. I didn't see any change in performance or consistency. 5 gal. fuel cell burnt about a quart a pass. I just topped it off after every pass and mixed the fuel I bought with what was left over in the can from the previous week.
The car has a good cooling system and a alternator. I can sit on the line for a long time without the temp. rising.
The new engine will be a pump gas deal. If for some reason I can't find the consistency I'm looking for I may make the switch.
Posted By: 1jeff
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/08/15 01:05 AM
Somehow my last posts got deleted, so here is a repeat.
My thinking on going small motor was based on getting max life pout of a motor that will not overpower the tires even on a junk track, yet still make enough power to keep you at a 10.00, out of the expensive 9.99 or faster zone. One combo that would be dirt cheap would be to go with a 400 block, 7.10 rods, Ross 1.120 ch flat tops, a 383 crank cut to 3.54 stroke for 426 cubes. The biggest expense are pistons and rods, somebody will probably give you a crank! Compression with flat tops would be about 10.00, for pump 93. A 426 with a set of small port heads ought to make great power and still shift at 6400 rpm, about perfect with your current gears.
There are some other posts missing as well. Thanks for the repeat!
Posted By: rickstershemi
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/08/15 02:50 AM
I do want to make the car capable of running faster. How I am going to use that has yet to be determined, I foresee a throttle stop in my future. I do not have a power or et goal in mind. The car will cert., it has. I don't like the heat, wearing a 3 layer suit in the middle of the summer does not appeal to me. But I can if I want to!
My local tack switched to Ihra this year and is starting a index program, one class will be 10.00. Yep, interested! I haven't talked to the track or really looked at the Ihra rule book to see what the differences are.
Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 4oo will take some weight out and a good set of heads are going to make some more power. I am a bracket racer and have not been bitten by the go faster bug. Running super at my local track I'm being chased 99% of the time and I'm good with that. Lots of low 9, 8 and 7 second cars. I refuse to spend that kind of money to bracket race. If I can't be competitive the car will be for sale.
I understand from everything I've read that alcohol is more consistent. I know absolutely nothing about it. How bad is the learning curve?
Did I hear Throttle Stop
If you're looking at SST 10.90??? I would at least shoot for running 9.90 or 1-second under at the very least (more would be even better and at your weight shouldn't be all that hard. .02
Rickster
Posted By: 1jeff
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/08/15 04:16 AM
I do want to make the car capable of running faster. How I am going to use that has yet to be determined, I foresee a throttle stop in my future. I do not have a power or et goal in mind. The car will cert., it has. I don't like the heat, wearing a 3 layer suit in the middle of the summer does not appeal to me. But I can if I want to!
My local tack switched to Ihra this year and is starting a index program, one class will be 10.00. Yep, interested! I haven't talked to the track or really looked at the Ihra rule book to see what the differences are.
Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 4oo will take some weight out and a good set of heads are going to make some more power. I am a bracket racer and have not been bitten by the go faster bug. Running super at my local track I'm being chased 99% of the time and I'm good with that. Lots of low 9, 8 and 7 second cars. I refuse to spend that kind of money to bracket race. If I can't be competitive the car will be for sale.
I understand from everything I've read that alcohol is more consistent. I know absolutely nothing about it. How bad is the learning curve?
Did I hear Throttle Stop
If you're looking at SST 10.90??? I would at least shoot for running 9.90 or 1-second under at the very least (more would be even better and at your weight shouldn't be all that hard. .02
Rickster
Oh yes you did! Local track is going to run some index races, one class is 10.00. Sounds like fun. Once I get the car together and learn to use the stop consistently I'd like to do some more of this type of racing. I wouldn't mind travelling a little.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/08/15 04:26 AM
My experience, as a pump gas racer, watching the alky guys goof around with that fuel and the problems they have, and breaking out the fuel testers and such...Ain't worth it. All my stuff runs on the same fuel. The ATV, the generator, and the race car...can't beat that. And I only need to take 10g for a weekend of racing vs an entire drum and all the pumps and BS. We won the season on E10 93...I won three big races that year, and anything can be made consistent with time and good parts...
I am simple, and plenty of MBB combo's will make more than enough HP to kill a stock block on pump gas with today's heads. If you have a race fuel motor already, we have found Snow's water injection to work really well on 93 and 14:1...I would go that route long before I went to alky...And we have never had any cooling issues on pump, even round robin.
Thanks for the reply!
The last engine would run on pump, 10:1 comp. with 280@ .050 cam. The po mixed 50/50. I drained the cell and filled it with 93. I've heard many say Race gas is more consistent. I didn't see any change in performance or consistency. 5 gal. fuel cell burnt about a quart a pass. I just topped it off after every pass and mixed the fuel I bought with what was left over in the can from the previous week.
The car has a good cooling system and a alternator. I can sit on the line for a long time without the temp. rising.
The new engine will be a pump gas deal. If for some reason I can't find the consistency I'm looking for I may make the switch.
If you go pump gas, there are two tricks to running it...Get it at the same station every week, and try and keep it as fresh as possible. I typically burn about 5g/ week and keep it fresh....With E10 it does not keep as well. That is why racing fuel tends to be better for some people. And the fact most race fuel is sold in lined drums or cans...
Posted By: Eric
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? - 04/08/15 03:33 PM
Wait till you start T/S racing...it's addictive for sure. I almost never bracket race if I can get to a S/R race instead. You live in a good area for IHRA Div 1 also. Not to bad a tow for any of the divisionals.