Posted By: RockChip
H series bearings for 383-400??? - 03/31/15 02:26 AM
Is anyone making a performance main bearing for the small journal big blocks yet?
H series bearings for 383-400???
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 03/31/15 02:37 AM
Are you mainly looking for a champered bearing? If so check these out.
http://store.440source.com/CHAMFERED-Main-bearings-STD-B-Engine/productinfo/MS-876P-CH/
http://store.440source.com/CHAMFERED-Main-bearings-STD-B-Engine/productinfo/MS-876P-CH/
Posted By: Criterion
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 03/31/15 04:28 AM
Per the recommendation of another member on here (I believe it was Cab Burge), I am running Federal Mogul/Sealed Power 4094M's. They're a narrow, fully grooved, tri-metal main bearing. The only downside I can think of is if you want a bearing with the larger thrust flange for the later blocks, which the 4094M bearings lack.
I also wouldn't hesitate to use a set of King bearings. I don't think you can get the XP series for low-deck mains, but you should be able to get an HP series bearing.
I also wouldn't hesitate to use a set of King bearings. I don't think you can get the XP series for low-deck mains, but you should be able to get an HP series bearing.
Posted By: RockChip
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 03/31/15 04:37 AM
I seen those Pittsburg, though I do need a chamfer bearing I can do what they did for 80-90 bucks less!
Criterion, thanks I'll check those out.
I've been using a lot of king stuff for other builds, Seem to be decent.
Criterion, thanks I'll check those out.
I've been using a lot of king stuff for other builds, Seem to be decent.
Posted By: super451b
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 02:57 AM
I use the 4094m bearings on my 440 source crank and while they are a little bit narrower than the clevites , I still had to chamfer them for clearance.
Posted By: Criterion
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 06:03 AM
Quote:
I use the 4094m bearings on my 440 source crank and while they are a little bit narrower than the clevites , I still had to chamfer them for clearance.
I am running the 4094M's on a Molnar crank with no issues. I am also using the King XP series of BBC rod bearings and have zero clearance issues there as well. I guess Molnar cranks don't need the extra bearing-width clearance on the journals that the 440 Source cranks do. Interesting.
Posted By: RockChip
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 07:27 AM
Looks like the 4094m are my only choice.
Thanks guys!
Thanks guys!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 03:33 PM
Quote:Quote:
I use the 4094m bearings on my 440 source crank and while they are a little bit narrower than the clevites , I still had to chamfer them for clearance.
I am running the 4094M's on a Molnar crank with no issues. I am also using the King XP series of BBC rod bearings and have zero clearance issues there as well. I guess Molnar cranks don't need the extra bearing-width clearance on the journals that the 440 Source cranks do. Interesting.
Why is that interesting?? It's a known fact that the radius on the 'source cranks are bigger than they should be and the accepted by the mASSES fix has always been to scrape for clearance.
I used the Clevite bearings on a low deck Eagle crank and they didn't need to be scraped for clearance ???
Posted By: 440sourcedotcom
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 08:23 PM
Quote:
It's a known fact that the radius on the 'source cranks are bigger than they should be and the accepted by the mASSES fix has always been to scrape for clearance.
I used the Clevite bearings on a low deck Eagle crank and they didn't need to be scraped for clearance ???
It's a known fact that those who acquire their engine building experience via a keyboard instead of a wrench are often mistaken.
The issue of main bearings contacting the radius is almost always due to where the engine block locating tangs position the bearings rather than the crankshaft radius.
When the blocks were machined at the factory, very little attention was given to positioning the locating tangs at the exactly correct position. The factory cranks had no radius, so there was a ton of room in there, and it didn't matter.
So, if you get a block where the tangs are shifted to one side (which is very common), and you are using a crank with a large radius (which is necessary for the strength of the crankshaft) there can be some interference with the radius.
While the uneducated or inexperienced instantly blames the crankshaft, in reality the crankshaft has nothing to do with the problem.
We've attached a picture, so anyone can easily see what we are explaining. In this particular case, the bearing was heavily shifted toward the right side of the picture, by nearly a quarter inch. With a factory crank, it did not cause a problem. With a radiused crank, now you have a problem. Name brand of the crank has nothing to do with it.
Our cranks have an eighth inch (.125") radius, no larger, no smaller.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 08:55 PM
Quote:Quote:
It's a known fact that the radius on the 'source cranks are bigger than they should be and the accepted by the mASSES fix has always been to scrape for clearance.
I used the Clevite bearings on a low deck Eagle crank and they didn't need to be scraped for clearance ???
It's a known fact that those who acquire their engine building experience via a keyboard instead of a wrench are often mistaken.
The issue of main bearings contacting the radius is almost always due to where the engine block locating tangs position the bearings rather than the crankshaft radius.
When the blocks were machined at the factory, very little attention was given to positioning the locating tangs at the exactly correct position. The factory cranks had no radius, so there was a ton of room in there, and it didn't matter.
So, if you get a block where the tangs are shifted to one side (which is very common), and you are using a crank with a large radius (which is necessary for the strength of the crankshaft) there can be some interference with the radius.
While the uneducated or inexperienced instantly blames the crankshaft, in reality the crankshaft has nothing to do with the problem.
We've attached a picture, so anyone can easily see what we are explaining. In this particular case, the bearing was heavily shifted toward the right side of the picture, by nearly a quarter inch. With a factory crank, it did not cause a problem. With a radiused crank, now you have a problem. Name brand of the crank has nothing to do with it.
Our cranks have an eighth inch (.125") radius, no larger, no smaller.
If this were the case.. how would you get the crank
into the block.. the thrust bearing #3 has what..
.015 end play
Posted By: 440sourcedotcom
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 09:11 PM
Quote:
If this were the case.. how would you get the crank
into the block.. the thrust bearing #3 has what..
.015 end play
Because when the tang location is inaccurate, that doesn't mean all 5 saddles are consistently inaccurate, it just means one or more can be off relative to the others.
The thrust bearing usually locates itself based on the slight press fit with the machined recess in the cap/block, not with the tang anyhow, and the position of the thrust is the main factor in how the crank is located in the block. Then the other four bearings use the tangs to "match up" to the position which the thrust has established.
If the tangs are machined correctly, this works great in theory. If they are machined incorrectly, you have a situation such as what is shown in the picture.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 09:18 PM
Quote:Quote:
If this were the case.. how would you get the crank
into the block.. the thrust bearing #3 has what..
.015 end play
Because when the tang location is inaccurate, that doesn't mean all 5 saddles are consistently inaccurate, it just means one or more can be off relative to the others.
The thrust bearing usually locates itself based on the slight press fit with the machined recess in the cap/block, not with the tang anyhow, and the position of the thrust is the main factor in how the crank is located in the block. Then the other four bearings use the tangs to "match up" to the position which the thrust has established.
If the tangs are machined correctly, this works great in theory. If they are machined incorrectly, you have a situation such as what is shown in the picture.
Ok.. so your saying that the crank didnt move its
just 1 or more bearings might have
Posted By: dogdays
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 09:55 PM
Also, to take a poke at JRR, who I haven't riled up for a while, any decent mechanical designer would tell you that there's no such thing as too big a radius on a transition like from counterweight to the crankshaft journal.
Now, bigger than one would expect? Certainly.
The above post makes this point moot anyway, as it appears that the positioning of the bearings in the main saddles is what runs the edge of the bearing into the crank radius.
To the Source of this new information, thanks. It's nice to know the "real" facts.
There also appears to be a right and wrong way to install rod bearings which I haven't noticed, but then I do the work so slowly that if something doesn't look right I change it around without really thinking about it.
R.
Now, bigger than one would expect? Certainly.
The above post makes this point moot anyway, as it appears that the positioning of the bearings in the main saddles is what runs the edge of the bearing into the crank radius.
To the Source of this new information, thanks. It's nice to know the "real" facts.
There also appears to be a right and wrong way to install rod bearings which I haven't noticed, but then I do the work so slowly that if something doesn't look right I change it around without really thinking about it.
R.
Posted By: Criterion
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/01/15 10:05 PM
So just how ugly do things get when you run an aftermarket main cap that locates the lower bearing shell properly, with the upper shell improperly located because of poor OE machining? Improper/uneven bearing crush? Misalignment of the oil groove? Not really a big deal at all?
Posted By: super451b
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/02/15 02:15 AM
Quote:Quote:
It's a known fact that the radius on the 'source cranks are bigger than they should be and the accepted by the mASSES fix has always been to scrape for clearance.
I used the Clevite bearings on a low deck Eagle crank and they didn't need to be scraped for clearance ???
It's a known fact that those who acquire their engine building experience via a keyboard instead of a wrench are often mistaken.
The issue of main bearings contacting the radius is almost always due to where the engine block locating tangs position the bearings rather than the crankshaft radius.
When the blocks were machined at the factory, very little attention was given to positioning the locating tangs at the exactly correct position. The factory cranks had no radius, so there was a ton of room in there, and it didn't matter.
So, if you get a block where the tangs are shifted to one side (which is very common), and you are using a crank with a large radius (which is necessary for the strength of the crankshaft) there can be some interference with the radius.
While the uneducated or inexperienced instantly blames the crankshaft, in reality the crankshaft has nothing to do with the problem.
We've attached a picture, so anyone can easily see what we are explaining. In this particular case, the bearing was heavily shifted toward the right side of the picture, by nearly a quarter inch. With a factory crank, it did not cause a problem. With a radiused crank, now you have a problem. Name brand of the crank has nothing to do with it.
Our cranks have an eighth inch (.125") radius, no larger, no smaller.
If it came across that I was blaming the crank as the problem , that was not my intention. I was just trying to point out that the use of the 4094m bearings cannot be taken as a blanket statement that will work on all setups and that clearances should ALWAYS be checked. Although the crank that I got did have a couple minor issues, journal machining , was not one of them.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: H series bearings for 383-400??? - 04/02/15 05:28 PM
Quote:
It's a known fact that those who acquire their engine building experience via a keyboard instead of a wrench are often mistaken.
