Moparts
Advice for heads.
I have exceeded the limits of my Stealth heads and trying to figure out what way to go next. My combo is a 500" stroked 440, 10.1 comp. Got a deal last year on a Bullet roller cam .668 lift 260 duration @.050. Engine is in a 68 Dart.
Looking for any input on what head to go with or where to buy at. Or thoughts on porting my Stealth,they flow 250 at .600 lift now. Two valve guides are broke now, makes me a little nervous about them now.
Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 08:38 AM
Step up to a set of heads(and intake manifold
) with the Max Wedge size intake ports
My CNC Eddy RPM flowed 310 @ .600 and .700, my unported Indy SR with M.W. size intakes flowed 340 CFM at the same valve opening. I sent a set of B1-BS heads with stock 440 port sizes to Modern Cylinder heads for thier CNC porting and those heads flowed 350 CFM at .600 to .800
More air and fuel ,more power
Get the biggest set you can afford and find now instead of later
Posted By: EchoSixMike
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 09:40 AM
Budget? Goals? Class rules? Car setup? Any legacy parts you want to keep? S/F.....Ken M
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 03:52 PM
Quote:
Budget? Goals? Class rules? Car setup? Any legacy parts you want to keep? S/F.....Ken M
What he said.
What does the car run now?
Car runs 11:0s with a best of 10:98 at 118 mph. Lazy on top end. Would like to see 10:60 out of car for now. Just a bracket car so no rules really apply. Edelbrock Torker intake, 1000cfm double pumper on e85, 727 with 8" conv. that flashes to 5100, 410 rear with 29.5 tire. Doing some internet research and kind of leaning toward Indy EZ or SR heads now. Thinking something that can be improved on at a later time if and when I want more hp. As we all know we always end up wanting to go faster!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 05:55 PM
Quote:
Car runs 11:0s with a best of 10:98 at 118 mph. Lazy on top end. Would like to see 10:60 out of car for now. Just a bracket car so no rules really apply. 727 with 8" conv. that flashes to 5100, 410 rear with 29.5 tire. Doing some internet research and kind of leaning toward Indy EZ or SR heads now. Thinking something that can be improved on at a later time if and when I want more hp. As we all know we always end up wanting to go faster!
What is your trap RPM now
Trap rpm is about 6100 rpm. Been shifting from 6000 to 6400. As it is now it likes 6100-6200 the best.
Posted By: 69CHARGERMD
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 06:10 PM
I run edelbrock rpm heads, 1050 dominator, solid cam, 3400 lb car,,,best ET was 10.04
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 06:51 PM
Not sure about your elevation or car weight, but I would think that ported Stealth's and a good tune would put you in the mid to low tens.
Milling the Stealth's and/or a head with a smaller chamber to get to 11:1 will help performance too.
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 07:22 PM
If your budget allows,skip right up to a set of 440-1s,then if you ever want to build bigger they will work with most combs even up to a 572".As far as pricing between -1s,SRs and EZs with max wedge ports they are all within a few hundered dollars of each other.
Posted By: LaRoy Engines
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 07:38 PM
Stealth or RPM heads when prepared properly will flow in the 340-345 cfm range @ .700" lift. There are multiple CNC programs that take them into the 320 cfm range @ .700" lift. If you feel you will need more than that in the future it is best to purchase better flowing ported heads like the Victor, INDY or Brodix. Our 451 with RPM heads made 723HP on Comp Cams dyno running on 93 octane and with a cam change back home and 91 octane it made 787 HP.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 09:17 PM
Depends on how much money you have invested in your rocker arms, headers and intake manifold. If you switch to MW heads then you'll need to change a fair number of parts.
You shouldn't have any problem going low 10's with std port heads so if that is where you want to race then stick with what you have and dial in the combination. Sounds like your heads need porting and you probably need more compression to work with E-85 at your altitude.
Posted By: 1DGEMAN
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 09:55 PM
It looks to me like you ought to save your money and work on the using the power you have. Maybe a better tune up. There are 3300 pound cars running 8.5 to compression 340's running 10.60's on 9inch tires in stock eliminator. Surely a 500 inch bb should run as quick. Work on your chassis and tune up save your money. Get the power to the ground.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/08/15 10:46 PM
Quote:
Our 451 with RPM heads made 723HP on Comp Cams dyno running on 93 octane and with a cam change back home and 91 octane it made 787 HP.
Can you tell us more about it? 
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 12:14 AM
Quote:
It looks to me like you ought to save your money and work on the using the power you have. Maybe a better tune up. There are 3300 pound cars running 8.5 to compression 340's running 10.60's on 9inch tires in stock eliminator. Surely a 500 inch bb should run as quick. Work on your chassis and tune up save your money. Get the power to the ground. [/quote}
The part you forgot to include on your post about them stockers on 9 inch tires running as fast as they do is "They open the doors of those cars and stuff it full of ten thousand dollar parts before starting to build those cars" Been there done that, bracket racing is way cheaper and easier to make a car run like those cars do 
OP, have fun
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 02:27 AM
My buddy had a '72 Duster with a stock stroke 400 in it. The 400 had good compression, ported Edelbrock heads and a street roller cam. That car went 10.90's on street tires with a full exhaust and full interior. Drove it to the track and ran low 11's or high 10's depending on the weather.
So I'm thinking that you should not have any trouble running low 10's if you get those heads ported. You might have some other problems such as poor fuel flow, slipping trans, poor traction, bad ignition, etc. I don't think you need to spend a bunch of money on Max Wedge heads or anything like that. No reason at all that an A-body bracket racer with 500 inches can't run low 10's all day long.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 03:06 AM
Quote:
I have exceeded the limits of my Stealth heads and trying to figure out what way to go next. My combo is a 500" stroked 440, 10.1 comp. Got a deal last year on a Bullet roller cam .668 lift 260 duration @.050. Engine is in a 68 Dart.
Looking for any input on what head to go with or where to buy at. Or thoughts on porting my Stealth,they flow 250 at .600 lift now. Two valve guides are broke now, makes me a little nervous about them now.
Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
The cheapest thing to do would be to port, and fix the heads, you have , 250cfm is about the same as a stage 2 ported 906 head.
Otherwise if you want to buy a better head step up , but be warned you may have to buy a new intake , rockers as noted , if your change is to a roller from a flat tappet that is going to add to the cost also.
Posted By: LaRoy Engines
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 03:17 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Our 451 with RPM heads made 723HP on Comp Cams dyno running on 93 octane and with a cam change back home and 91 octane it made 787 HP.
Can you tell us more about it?
The 451 at Comp Cams
More from the Challenge
And this.
Posted By: perfmachst
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 09:25 AM
Quote:
Quote:
It looks to me like you ought to save your money and work on the using the power you have. Maybe a better tune up. There are 3300 pound cars running 8.5 to compression 340's running 10.60's on 9inch tires in stock eliminator. Surely a 500 inch bb should run as quick. Work on your chassis and tune up save your money. Get the power to the ground. [/quote}
The part you forgot to include on your post about them stockers on 9 inch tires running as fast as they do is "They open the doors of those cars and stuff it full of ten thousand dollar parts before starting to build those cars" Been there done that, bracket racing is way cheaper and easier to make a car run like those cars do OP, have fun
you mean, you build high dollar 500 inch motors with cnc ported heads
high dollar cranks , rods and pistons, roller cams and its cheaper??
also you pay more for big tires, chassis parts. I think you're bit off base. I seen more money spent on bracket cars. there are the faster newer stockers, are expensive, true. older cars not close.
Posted By: 1DGEMAN
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 01:03 PM
The point I was trying to make is the car should be quicker. It is a common mistake to think you need more HP when you need to refine what you have. Either his tune up is way off or his chassis or drive train is inefficient. Cab we raced together in the old days. I was there when you got tossed for sanblasted ports in your Hemi stocker. I have never had more than 15k invested in one of my cars and have set numerous records in Stock.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 03:02 PM
Before you start spending money its time to start
eliminating other possibilities ... hows the fuel
system.. does the pressure hold and does it have enough
flow(do the fill the gal bucket test)
Posted By: perfmachst
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 11:03 PM
Quote:
The point I was trying to make is the car should be quicker. It is a common mistake to think you need more HP when you need to refine what you have. Either his tune up is way off or his chassis or drive train is inefficient. Cab we raced together in the old days. I was there when you got tossed for sanblasted ports in your Hemi stocker. I have never had more than 15k invested in one of my cars and have set numerous records in Stock.
hello, figures most guys that cheat, are not fast!! they spend lots of money to try go faster. you're right about cost on a older stocker. thanks.
Posted By: Tommy D
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 11:10 PM
I'd think a cam with as much lift as the one listed in the OP would want some RPM in order to work correctly. With a 29.5" tire, and 4.10 gears, I'd think a gear change is in order. If you have an 8 3/4 rear, borrow a set from your buddies and give it a shot. Converter could be hurting you too. What kind of car and what weight are we talking? I did not see it in the OP. WHat's the 60'? Ultimately, most heavy cars need to get going quickly in order to ET well. Think about the earlier-mentioned stockers. They run 4.88 or 5.13 gears...or more. They 60' very well, and typically will run a much better ET/MPH than a bracket car would. (Much slower MPH for the ET they run) They're typically very well sorted, and will RPM much higher than a bracket racer would want. The additional gear needed to get you the ET numbers you want may also play havoc on consistency. (What you gain in ET...you lose in potential-tire-spin, possibly losing you the race.) Remember that in bracket racing, the less the combination changes, the more information you have on your combination. All of this information, if logged correctly, and referenced often, is what winning bracket racers use as their bible...or so i was told: )
Posted By: Tommy D
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 11:12 PM
OK...just re-read the OP. I see it's a Dart. What weight and converter?
Posted By: BradH
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 11:13 PM
Quote:
Cab we raced together in the old days. I was there when you got tossed for sanblasted ports in your Hemi stocker.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/09/15 11:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Cab we raced together in the old days. I was there when you got tossed for sanblasted ports in your Hemi stocker.
Thats not cheating... he just got caught .. LOL...
IMO all the stockers are playing some kind of game
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 01:29 AM
'68 Dart bracket racer with a big block should be what, 3400 lbs or so?
600 hp should be easy with a 500 inch engine that has decent compression and normal back yard tune up.
600 hp and 3400 lbs is 10.40 @ 130 mph according to my little calculator.
So I'm guessing that the tune is way wrong, or the fuel line isn't feeding the engine, or the plug wires aren't hooked up to the right plugs or something like that.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 01:32 AM
3500 lbs at 550 hp is 10.80 at 125 mph. Which is almost exactly what my buddy ran with his '72 Duster. That 400 engine was dynoed at 550 hp and even with street tires and full exhaust he ran 10.90 at 123 in good air.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 02:01 AM
Quote:
The point I was trying to make is the car should be quicker. It is a common mistake to think you need more HP when you need to refine what you have. Either his tune up is way off or his chassis or drive train is inefficient. Cab we raced together in the old days. I was there when you got tossed for sanblasted ports in your Hemi stocker. I have never had more than 15k invested in one of my cars and have set numerous records in Stock.
Dude, that was a long time ago 
I think that was 1974 or 1975, which year do you remember it as? We both must be older now than then 
You know what I've heard is if you live long enough you will get old 
I got tossed at that race, the only time I or anybody else I was associated with on any NHRA class race cars, was for having the intake manifold bead blasted on the inside 
I had built that car in three months and knew I needed to change that intake manifold and new car bugs got to me bad enough that I forgot until I was in the barn for tear down and at the intake and carb. bench and the NHRA tech, siad "Man, that is really pretty job on the bead blasting 
I would have been tossed at that race anyways do to having the worng carb. part numbers on that motor, it had a set of 1968 Hemi automatic carbs instead of the 1970/71 street stick shift carbs on that 1970 Hemi Cuda. NHRA had change the carb. rules and I misundersood that rule, you could ues later carbs. on a early motor but not the opposite 
No early carbs on later model motors 
BTW, which class and car where you with? I did end up winning J/S several years later and got through tear down like we did with Steve and Linda Myers Pink Panther 1968 Hemi GTX in either 1973 or 1974, CRS I agree on gremlins and problems on race cars, they're are a lot of them Another thing a lot of racers forget is someone elses cars performance at a different track some where else in the country can't(shouldn't be) be compared to your car unless your there that day running in the same session 
Posted By: 493_DART
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 03:59 AM
you can lose a ton of ET if your converter isnt working right !
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 04:05 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Cab we raced together in the old days. I was there when you got tossed for sanblasted ports in your Hemi stocker.
Thats not cheating... he just got caught .. LOL...
IMO all the stockers are playing some kind of game
Poor Cab 
Fuel pressure and volume is not an issue. I got that sorted out last season. Aeromotive pump fed by a -10 line and -8 line from pump to regulator with a return line to cell. Pump fills gallon in 17 seconds. Fuel pressure gauge does not move. EGT is in low to mid 1400. Car sixty fts 1.44-1.46 depending on track.1/8 mile 6.93-6.96 @97mph. Running cal tracs. I looked at wrong page in log book. 120 mph trap speed. Could be converter I suppose. Top end of drive is just dead. Got a little better with new pump. The guy that flowed the heads figures I would gain 75-100 horse to get flow over 300. Was just wondering what others have done in this position.
Posted By: Stroker Scamp
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 06:40 AM
I have a set of MCH eddys on the Scamp, that being said there are plenty of good guys out there.
Posted By: 493_DART
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 07:58 AM
Quote:
Fuel pressure and volume is not an issue. I got that sorted out last season. Aeromotive pump fed by a -10 line and -8 line from pump to regulator with a return line to cell. Pump fills gallon in 17 seconds. Fuel pressure gauge does not move. EGT is in low to mid 1400. Car sixty fts 1.44-1.46 depending on track.1/8 mile 6.93-6.96 @97mph. Running cal tracs. I looked at wrong page in log book. 120 mph trap speed. Could be converter I suppose. Top end of drive is just dead. Got a little better with new pump. The guy that flowed the heads figures I would gain 75-100 horse to get flow over 300. Was just wondering what others have done in this position.
what cam specs ? is it the bullet roller
also, for the heck of it--go to wallaceracing.com , and enter your times, etc, into their converter slip calculator.
my dart picked up THREE tenths with a converter swap. the old one was at 12 % .
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Advice for heads. - 02/10/15 05:01 PM
Quote:
I have exceeded the limits of my Stealth heads and trying to figure out what way to go next. My combo is a 500" stroked 440, 10.1 comp. Got a deal last year on a Bullet roller cam .668 lift 260 duration @.050. Engine is in a 68 Dart.
Looking for any input on what head to go with or where to buy at. Or thoughts on porting my Stealth,they flow 250 at .600 lift now. Two valve guides are broke now, makes me a little nervous about them now.
Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
That comp. and that duration are probably not too happy together # 1. What carb, plugs, timing etc. My home ported junk rpm`s work well 4 me but it`s the WHOLE combo from bumper to bumper that will shed et`s and go faster imo.