Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long

Posted By: B3RE

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/05/15 04:44 AM

Quote:

What's it 60 ft?

Why do you think you should change the cam?

Also, your #s just look odd to me... almost 4 mph faster in the 1/8th than me, yet only 2 mph faster in the 1/4, like you're running out of rpm or over geared.

Or, maybe it's the valvetrain. Was the valvetrain checked for proper geometry? A stock stroke 440 with 346 cfm heads and 282 @ .050 cam should be shifting higher than 6500 rpm. I think with a 31 x 14 slick and those engine specs, it would need more gear. I'd expect peak power to be more than 6500 rpm. It just needs to get there. That would explain the lower 1/4 mile mph.
That being said, it could benefit from more lift, and if the cam is being changed anyway, I'd go with a little less duration, and a higher ratio rocker.

Posted By: BradH

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/05/15 04:06 PM

After re-reading your info and seeing the combination is under 3000#s, I don't understand why it's not already well into the 9s. My junk ran 10.5s at 126 (6.6s at 101-102 in the 1/8th) at over 3700#s w/ a far more conservative combination.

I don't think you need a different cam; I think you need more cubic inches to make the rest of the combination you have work better.

EDIT: If you're "stuck" w/ changing only the cam, I'd say use the first cam in your list to see how much mid-range torque you can recover vs. that big-a$$ 'stick in there now.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/05/15 04:20 PM

With the cam you have.. whats the LSA on it and what
did you degree it in at(if you did)

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/05/15 04:27 PM

Those heads on a 451 will run best at a higher rpm by a bunch. You might be losing a lot to bad valve springs and lousy valve control. A motor like yours shouldn't quit making power till well into the 7,000 rpm range. If you have very good rockers and pushrods, put some good springs on it and get a cam that has somewhere around 276 to 280 duration, 108 or slightly higher LSA, and .700+ lift. Isky has a RR735 grind that looks good on paper for your application. It has 280/288/110 duration numbers, .735/.684 lift numbers.
I have run this cam in my 528 and it pulled power past 7200 with a single four. If you cut your heads for some serious compression, (13+) this cam ought to make serious power. Put a 6,000 plus stall converter in front of it, and hang on.

Posted By: B3RE

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/05/15 05:13 PM

Quote:

Those heads on a 451 will run best at a higher rpm by a bunch. You might be losing a lot to bad valve springs and lousy valve control. A motor like yours shouldn't quit making power till well into the 7,000 rpm range. If you have very good rockers and pushrods, put some good springs on it and get a cam that has somewhere around 276 to 280 duration, 108 or slightly higher LSA, and .700+ lift. Isky has a RR735 grind that looks good on paper for your application. It has 280/288/110 duration numbers, .735/.684 lift numbers.
I have run this cam in my 528 and it pulled power past 7200 with a single four. If you cut your heads for some serious compression, (13+) this cam ought to make serious power. Put a 6,000 plus stall converter in front of it, and hang on.

I think we are on the same page here Greg. Big cam with small cubes is going to need more rpm. I think it has valvetrain instability, which will weaken the springs prematurely. Could be a combination of both at this point. I do think a smaller duration cam would help the bottom end some and avoid more gear and maybe get away with his current converter to get that 9 sec slip. It all comes back to whether or not he can turn the needed rpm without the motor laying down.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/05/15 06:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I run a 'small roller' 620 lift, 272/276 @.050 been 10.20's 130mph with the crossram thru the exhaust. Put your intake and dominator on my motor probably easy 9's and car weighs 3300lbs. 4.30 gear 29.5 tires, little ez heads. The cam is from Indy R1, it's easy on the valve train.

Jim I was told to leave it alone another cam won't help me but chasing that 9 sec time slip it hard for me not to touch it.

You know my thoughts on this..............

I can get ya .2 more than likely according to how screwed up your carb is. My cam is 276-281 and has no issues idling or goin past 7000 BUT more cubes.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 03:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Those heads on a 451 will run best at a higher rpm by a bunch. You might be losing a lot to bad valve springs and lousy valve control. A motor like yours shouldn't quit making power till well into the 7,000 rpm range. If you have very good rockers and pushrods, put some good springs on it and get a cam that has somewhere around 276 to 280 duration, 108 or slightly higher LSA, and .700+ lift. Isky has a RR735 grind that looks good on paper for your application. It has 280/288/110 duration numbers, .735/.684 lift numbers.
I have run this cam in my 528 and it pulled power past 7200 with a single four. If you cut your heads for some serious compression, (13+) this cam ought to make serious power. Put a 6,000 plus stall converter in front of it, and hang on.

I think we are on the same page here Greg. Big cam with small cubes is going to need more rpm. I think it has valvetrain instability, which will weaken the springs prematurely. Could be a combination of both at this point. I do think a smaller duration cam would help the bottom end some and avoid more gear and maybe get away with his current converter to get that 9 sec slip. It all comes back to whether or not he can turn the needed rpm without the motor laying down.

First off let me say Thanks for everyone input

Now new springs are n the upgrade list but just trying to figure out this cam deal, so I can get the right ones. the conv is out and will be sending it to UCC for a refreshing and talk to Lenny about spec change. PLEASE don't beat me to bad on this one but rocker are crane gold 1.5s

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Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 04:32 AM

Hopefully you have time to research this deal, and figure out what is going to work best for you. Those Gold rockers aren't as stout as some rockers from what I here, and it may take some research to figure out a combo that is right for your deal. The right amount of spring, lobe profile and lift will all come into play. There are a number of guys on this board that have run those rockers, myself included. I didn't run enough spring or rpm to hurt mine though. Good luck with it, and keep us posted.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 04:51 AM

Quote:

Hopefully you have time to research this deal, and figure out what is going to work best for you. Those Gold rockers aren't as stout as some rockers from what I here, and it may take some research to figure out a combo that is right for your deal. The right amount of spring, lobe profile and lift will all come into play. There are a number of guys on this board that have run those rockers, myself included. I didn't run enough spring or rpm to hurt mine though. Good luck with it, and keep us posted.

Thanks Greg I been working on this combo for about 3 yrs now and I bought all these parts WAY b4 I knew what I was doing lol. truth be told the cam duration thing really has me confused some say I have too much some want it lower just don't know

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Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 05:09 AM

Here's a pic of rocker arms

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Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 05:11 AM

Another

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Posted By: B3RE

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 05:30 AM

From what I can see, it looks like the fulcrum is too low and there is a good bit of sweep across the tip. I am increasingly confident there is trouble here.

Posted By: BradH

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 03:38 PM

Regardless of possible valve train geometry and/ or spring issues, the OP has a big cam and heads that probably want to be spun another 1000 RPM at his displacement.

If he wants to keep the RPM down, he needs to band-aid it with a shorter duration cam to move the torque curve lower.

IMO, he needs to decide what approach to take, first.

Posted By: B3RE

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/06/15 04:07 PM

Quote:

Regardless of possible valve train geometry and/ or spring issues, the OP has a big cam and heads that probably want to be spun another 1000 RPM at his displacement.

If he wants to keep the RPM down, he needs to band-aid it with a shorter duration cam to move the torque curve lower.

IMO, he needs to decide what approach to take, first.

I don't think we disagree here, Brad. As you and I both mentioned, he should have a smaller cam for his combo. I agree he should be turning a lot more rpm than he is, but the question is, why isn't he. That brings up the geometry. But, if he wants the combination to be right, it will need more gear and converter for this cam, or a cam change to work with his existing setup. Either way, he needs to decide which cam he is going with and then deal with the geometry, since valve lift plays a role in the setup. My point is, it needs attention the way it is now, but I agree the combination needs to be corrected first. It will still need the valvetrain set up properly though.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/07/15 01:39 AM

Quote:

If he wants to keep the RPM down, he needs to band-aid it with a shorter duration cam to move the torque curve lower.

I agree he should be turning a lot more rpm than he is, but the question is, why isn't he

if he wants the combination to be right, it will need more gear and converter for this cam, or a cam change to work with his existing setup.

Ok this is where I start getting confused so a smaller duration cam won't let the car rpm as high

Also I tried shifting @ 6700 made no difference shifted lower the car picked up

I'm running a 4.56 now with 31x14 tires what gear ad stall would be right

Also if you can see the pic clear my carb is sitting REAL close to top of hood scoop

Thanks again for all the input

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Posted By: deaks

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/07/15 02:29 AM

When i ran a dominator with the hood on, it took 7 mph off the car. It was a similar height to yours.
mick

Posted By: D-50

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/07/15 03:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If he wants to keep the RPM down, he needs to band-aid it with a shorter duration cam to move the torque curve lower.

I agree he should be turning a lot more rpm than he is, but the question is, why isn't he

if he wants the combination to be right, it will need more gear and converter for this cam, or a cam change to work with his existing setup.

Ok this is where I start getting confused so a smaller duration cam won't let the car rpm as high

Also I tried shifting @ 6700 made no difference shifted lower the car picked up

I'm running a 4.56 now with 31x14 tires what gear ad stall would be right

Also if you can see the pic clear my carb is sitting REAL close to top of hood scoop

Thanks again for all the input

Why not try to run your car with the hood off and see if the hood clearance is a problem.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/07/15 04:42 AM

My winter project to correct hood scoop problem

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Posted By: B3RE

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/07/15 05:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If he wants to keep the RPM down, he needs to band-aid it with a shorter duration cam to move the torque curve lower.

I agree he should be turning a lot more rpm than he is, but the question is, why isn't he

if he wants the combination to be right, it will need more gear and converter for this cam, or a cam change to work with his existing setup.

Ok this is where I start getting confused so a smaller duration cam won't let the car rpm as high

Also I tried shifting @ 6700 made no difference shifted lower the car picked up

I'm running a 4.56 now with 31x14 tires what gear ad stall would be right

Also if you can see the pic clear my carb is sitting REAL close to top of hood scoop

Thanks again for all the input

A smaller cam with a stable valvetrain is very likely to rpm higher than a bigger cam with an unstable valvetrain. The smaller cam will increase the lower and mid range power which will accelerate the car quicker at lower rpm, all else being equal.
The reason, IMHO, that you picked up when your shift point was lowered, is because at 66-6700 is where the springs started to lose control of the valves and the car laid down. The cam wasn't near done yet and the springs were probably not the problem. Improper valvetrain geometry over stresses the springs and they lose control. That doesn't mean the springs are bad. They just can't handle the extra stress that they shouldn't be seeing in the first place. Hey, a ten pound hammer sitting on your foot won't hurt, but that same hammer dropped from a ladder on your foot will increase your vocabulary.

Imagine the hammering the valvetrain takes if everything isn't right.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/10/15 01:55 AM

Ok how about a cam that is 276/276 681 lift n a 108 lsa

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Posted By: deaks

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/11/15 02:04 AM

Have you tried the car without the hood ? you might get a shock when you try your new hood.
Mick

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 02/11/15 03:46 AM

Quote:

Have you tried the car without the hood ? you might get a shock when you try your new hood.
Mick

.

Not yet just drop it off for some paint it'll be springtime before I can do any testing

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Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long. (Update) - 09/19/16 01:24 AM

Hello all

1st I need to say a BIG THANKS to Dwayne Porter for putting up with me.

He spec me out a cam that's 270/274 693 lift 108cl installed in at 104 with about 10 passes now the car runs a lot better new Best 1/8th mile is 106.18 still have more tuning to go but really wanted to say Thanks again Dwayne

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long. (Update) - 09/19/16 05:16 AM

Glad to hear it's working out Eldon

How's the 60' with that cam?

Check the cranking compression yet?

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long. (Update) - 09/19/16 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By fast68plymouth

Glad to hear it's working out Eldon

How's the 60' with that cam?

Check the cranking compression yet?

So far the 60's have been 1.41 yesterday to 1.44

No compression test yet ... It pulls good on the top end

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long. (Update) - 09/19/16 10:36 PM

The new cam is better then the bigger one you had for your combo.
Did you have the vert worked on as well?

If I were to do any changes, id install that cam at a 100 LIC and go with a 5000 vert. Your Tight carb proximity to the hood isn't helping things either. But, maybe your new hood is on now.

You gave your new mph for the 1/8th as well as the 60 ft. What was your ET? Your 1.41 to 1.44 60,s are soft IMO for your combo. Get that fixed and your in the 9,s.

Edit; you also asked about gear. You have to much gear IMO. I would lose the 31 x 14,s and go with 32 x 12,s or even 32 x 10,s with those 4.56,s You shouldn't need that much tire with your 3000# combo

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long. (Update) - 09/19/16 10:57 PM

Originally Posted By Sport440

The new cam is better then the bigger one you had for your combo.
Did you have the vert worked on as well?

If I were to do any changes, id install that cam at a 100LS and go with a 5000 vert. Your Tight carb proximity to the hood isn't helping things either. But, maybe your new hood is on now.

You gave your new mph for the 1/8th as well as the 60 ft. What was your ET? Your 1.41 to 1.44 60,s are soft IMO for your combo. Get that fixed and your in the 9,s.

Didn't get a new Best far as E.T yet mainly because I haven't touched anything since putting back together just b4 the Mopar Nat's in August. other than experimenting with squirters

I agree with 60 fts

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 12:20 PM

After rereading this post, I am sure something is holding this car back, and by a fair amount. The parts are there for enough power to go 9.60s,IMHO. Just comparing the 1/8th ET to 1/4 ET shows it should run at least a 9.99 or so, based on the 6.36 1/8th mile ET. Getting the hood to carb problem solved, proper springs and more rpm (6800 or more) it ought to surprise you.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 04:57 PM

I`ve thought this all along and we talked about things before and after I did the carb then he sells it.............

Fuel delivery based on what op told me was questionable but he swore it was good...........I thought you said you were going in a different direction like late model efi stuff at least that`s what I remember you saying.........

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By gregsdart

Greg the new springs are on Dwayne P. Help out a lot picking my cam and it definitely pulls on top more.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart

I`ve thought this all along and we talked about things before and after I did the carb then he sells it.............

Still exploring my options far as selling everything I don't want to sell something that's not right either.

The changes I made to the fuel system made no difference one-way or the other.. I m working on the hood now

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 05:38 PM

Confused on carb sale thinking it definitely was NOT the problem and now you`ll never know...........

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart

Confused on carb sale thinking it definitely was NOT the problem and now you`ll never know...........

Nope thinning out unnecessary parts that I can't use

Posted By: B3RE

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart

I`ve thought this all along and we talked about things before and after I did the carb then he sells it.............

I spoke with the OP also about the valvetrain. There is no reason a 440 inch motor, with EZ heads and a large roller cam, should be shifted at 6500 and slow down if shifted higher. If the numbers look good in the 1/8th, but it doesn't carry them in the 1/4, then the motor is laying down. And now, with a new cam and new springs, the argument that the springs are weak doesn't seem logical. I still say the geometry is off substantially.

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long - 09/21/16 07:37 PM

Duration had a good part in revving higher is my thought

Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long. (Update) - 09/22/16 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By fast68plymouth

Check the cranking compression yet?

I checked it last night it's now 185-190 where b4 it was only 155-165 so it did raise it some

Help pick a cam Agan a lttle long