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Main studs or bolts

Posted By: gss

Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 06:22 AM

I had B block machined a couple years ago, just now getting it together and I found that the align hone was done with the original main bolts, not the ARP main studs I have. If bringing it back to the machine shop is not an option, would it be better to go with the studs or get some ARP main bolts, or no difference? Engine is 470" with a solid roller .240/.248 @ 0.050. 9.7:1 CR.
Posted By: Street Monkies

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 07:16 AM

Probably could get away with using bolts with out any issues because it sounds like a street/strip type motor. If it were a more serious build with bigger cam, more cr, and so on I would definitely say studs only. The studs are way better because when you tap the block for threads you are going deeper into the block taking advantage of the blocks strength and allowing for a better clamp on the main caps.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 09:12 AM

Do you have(or know someone who does) the nessecary mikes, inside and outside or snap gauges and outside mikes to measure the inside of the main caps torque down with both the bolts and then the studs? If so make those measurements, if they don't vary more than .0002 I would run it as long as the main bearing to crankshaft clearances are above .0030 If they vary more than .0003 I would ask the machine shop to redo the align hone with the studs like you paid them to do it the first time They can't fix it if you don't ask them or allow them to
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 05:18 PM

I know I'll get ripped for this BUT I have gotten
lucky and installed studs without having it line bored..
put the studs and crank in it and see.. measure twice..
by the way... that engine is still running and still
turning some decently high revs
Posted By: gss

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 06:08 PM

Quote:

Do you have(or know someone who does) the nessecary mikes, inside and outside or snap gauges and outside mikes to measure the inside of the main caps torque down with both the bolts and then the studs?



Yes I am equipped to do that. Excellent advice. I probably would have figured that out eventually
Posted By: knyech1

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 07:34 PM

Quote:

I know I'll get ripped for this BUT I have gotten
lucky and installed studs without having it line bored..
put the studs and crank in it and see.. measure twice..
by the way... that engine is still running and still
turning some decently high revs




I did the exact same thing haha. I am getting a girdle now, though, so I will be getting one this time.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 09:27 PM

Quote:

I know I'll get ripped for this BUT I have gotten
lucky and installed studs without having it line bored..
put the studs and crank in it and see.. measure twice..
by the way... that engine is still running and still
turning some decently high revs


That's the worst possible thing you could ever do! - ok, just kidding, but it is winter - - - - -.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/25/15 11:12 PM

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.
Posted By: gss

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 12:01 AM

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 12:33 AM

Quote:

I know I'll get ripped for this BUT I have gotten
lucky and installed studs without having it line bored..
put the studs and crank in it and see.. measure twice..
by the way... that engine is still running and still
turning some decently high revs




Same here.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 01:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



Don't know about just using the Arp bolts, but you have a better chance of not having to, vs uising the Studs IMO.

But, your going to measure anyways. You may get lucky as others have stated, Im betting not though, if you use the Studs. Keep us posted as to what you find.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 02:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?

If you don't reuse the original bolts, use the original bolt torque specs and you will stand a good chance of not having to do any remachining.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 03:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 04:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.



I have installed studs on the mains before and I really don't see how the cap can move a substantial amount after they are "tapped" into place How does the cap know what's holding it in place The only place the cap can move is fore and aft and #3 is the only cap that will really matter on the thrust surface
Gus

Attached picture 8408053-savoyburnoutnew.jpg
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 05:03 AM

Clamping force is applied differently from the coarse threads in the block to the fine threads on the top of the studs.

That is why bolts and studs CAN. Distort the caps differently when applied with the same amount of torque.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 05:13 AM

Quote:

]

As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.



I have installed studs on the mains before and I really don't see how the cap can move a "substantial" amount after they are "tapped" into place How does the cap know what's holding it in place The only place the cap can move is fore and aft and #3 is the only cap that will really matter on the thrust surface
Gus



Gus, John RR, is referring to ARP Bolts.

As far as the Cap moving with Studs. With a Wider shank of the stud, depending on how accurate the holes are drilled/indexed in the cap, the cap can be moved/nudged toward the crank.

I don't think the word "Substantial" is the correct word to use here A .001 bump on each side of the cap towards the crank for a total loss of .002 clearance is enough to screw things up. That is a Small amount, not a Substantial amount, but enough to screw things up. Enough to cause Substantial problems though
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 05:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.



I have installed studs on the mains before and I really don't see how the cap can move a substantial amount after they are "tapped" into place How does the cap know what's holding it in place The only place the cap can move is fore and aft and #3 is the only cap that will really matter on the thrust surface
Gus



It has nothing to do with the caps moving ... the caps are located in the block by the register step in the block ... studs are torqued to a different value than bolts ... HIGHER ... this higher value can/will distort the main bores ... make them not round.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.



I have installed studs on the mains before and I really don't see how the cap can move a substantial amount after they are "tapped" into place How does the cap know what's holding it in place The only place the cap can move is fore and aft and #3 is the only cap that will really matter on the thrust surface
Gus



It has nothing to do with the caps moving ... the caps are located in the block by the register step in the block ... studs are torqued to a different value than bolts ... HIGHER ... this higher value can/will distort the main bores ... make them not round.

that's why you go with better bolts or studs to start with - for the additional clamping power - which of course you would defeat by using the same torque spec as the factory bolts. As said, only real way is to measure, but why pay for better stuff if you are not going to utilize it. If I remember correctly, factory main bolts = 90 ft lbs. ARP studs = 105 ft lbs. Those are recommended torque specs. 15 additional lbs will most likely require remachining the bores. If the OP is trying to stay away from remachining costs, maybe a new set of factory bolts would be a good compromise .
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/26/15 05:41 PM

I would NEVER do it................If it`s machined for bolts just get some new arp bolts and move on...............Helped George Koopal build a 427 chevy for a dragster that went 7.98 w/stock main bolts...........
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 05:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

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With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.



I have installed studs on the mains before and I really don't see how the cap can move a substantial amount after they are "tapped" into place How does the cap know what's holding it in place The only place the cap can move is fore and aft and #3 is the only cap that will really matter on the thrust surface
Gus



It has nothing to do with the caps moving ... the caps are located in the block by the register step in the block ... studs are torqued to a different value than bolts ... HIGHER ... this higher value can/will distort the main bores ... make them not round.



So just to be clear you guys have actually measured the bore after you installed studs and and torqued the caps an aditional 15 pounds and could actually measure the distortion of the cap
This claim wil go into the trash with laying a crankshaft on it's side will ruin it More excuses for an engine builder when he has one that scattered
Gus

Attached picture 8409170-frontveiwsavoy.jpg
Posted By: 408cuda

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 07:42 AM

Recently did this test on a MP pre-world hemi block going from stock bolts to arp studs. It changed enough for me to plan on getting it honed. I would have to go through my notes to give exact #'s but it surprised me. I was hoping it would be run-able.

Just check and see what happens.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 04:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

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With your engine I would use the bolts, since that was what it was align honed with. The Studs, because their shank is fatter then the bolts are sure to push those caps out of their alignment. If you want to use the studs, redo the align hone for them.

Im sure your measurements will confirm that. You really don't need the studs though with your combo. But if the blocks still bare, use them and rehone.



Thanks for the reply. I don't want to reuse the original bolts, so would I need to re-hone if I get some ARP bolts?



As long as the ARP bolts are torqued to the same value as the stock bolts , which they would be , not an issue.



I have installed studs on the mains before and I really don't see how the cap can move a substantial amount after they are "tapped" into place How does the cap know what's holding it in place The only place the cap can move is fore and aft and #3 is the only cap that will really matter on the thrust surface
Gus



It has nothing to do with the caps moving ... the caps are located in the block by the register step in the block ... studs are torqued to a different value than bolts ... HIGHER ... this higher value can/will distort the main bores ... make them not round.



So just to be clear you guys have actually measured the bore after you installed studs and and torqued the caps an aditional 15 pounds and could actually measure the distortion of the cap
This claim wil go into the trash with laying a crankshaft on it's side will ruin it More excuses for an engine builder when he has one that scattered
Gus




YES...............................
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 04:28 PM

Bottom line - If you are going to change hardware / torque specs, you should measure. Not that big of a deal.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 04:38 PM

I will also add, check your cylinder bores.

Really no reason to run studs IMO
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 04:59 PM

I thought E'berg cleared this up eons ago.

The stock bolt shank is smaller than the hole in the cap so it doesn't make contact with the bolt bore when it is torqued.

An ARP stud is uniform diameter (larger) and on a lot of stock caps, will make contact. This is what causes the distortion on the main bores. In his article he opened up the bolt bores slightly so the studs had more clearance and the distortion vanished.

My ? If you have the tools and the talent, install the caps with studs, torque them with the ARP lube and measure them. If the bores are still within the acceptable +/- .00000X, marvelous.

If you find one that isn't that was OK with bolts, open up the bolt bores so the studs have clearance and it should then be marvelous too.

Kevin
Posted By: gss

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 06:37 PM

Quote:

I thought E'berg cleared this up eons ago.

The stock bolt shank is smaller than the hole in the cap so it doesn't make contact with the bolt bore when it is torqued.

An ARP stud is uniform diameter (larger) and on a lot of stock caps, will make contact. This is what causes the distortion on the main bores. In his article he opened up the bolt bores slightly so the studs had more clearance and the distortion vanished.

My ? If you have the tools and the talent, install the caps with studs, torque them with the ARP lube and measure them. If the bores are still within the acceptable +/- .00000X, marvelous.

If you find one that isn't that was OK with bolts, open up the bolt bores so the studs have clearance and it should then be marvelous too.

Kevin



That is very interesting. Upon further inspection, there was NO align honing done at all with bolts or studs. I will be taking it to a different machine shop for align honing with the studs. Should I be concerned about the cylinders getting out of round?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/27/15 06:53 PM

You should always be concern with the cylinders getting out of round any time you do machining on the block. I know SB Mopar racers that torque the main caps on, torque the oil filter adapter on as well as the timing cover on with two torque plates to the block when doing the finish honing I use to have my M.W. motors honed with a torque plate on one side and a cylinder head on the other side with the head gaskets that I was going to use I make sure the cam bearings are installed also when honing the block Little things can mean a lot
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/28/15 01:33 AM

Quote:

I thought E'berg cleared this up eons ago.

The stock bolt shank is smaller than the hole in the cap so it doesn't make contact with the bolt bore when it is torqued.

An ARP stud is uniform diameter (larger) and on a lot of stock caps, will make contact. This is what causes the distortion on the main bores. In his article he opened up the bolt bores slightly so the studs had more clearance and the distortion vanished.

My ? If you have the tools and the talent, install the caps with studs, torque them with the ARP lube and measure them. If the bores are still within the acceptable +/- .00000X, marvelous.

If you find one that isn't that was OK with bolts, open up the bolt bores so the studs have clearance and it should then be marvelous too.

Kevin




Yep. I stated this Eons ago in this thread. my Caps had plenty of contact too with the new Wider shank studs. I redrilled my caps as well, but thsat wasn't enough. The higher torque value distorted them as well. Had to have the line hone, crank wouldn't spin without it.

So the Wider shanks of the studs and the higher torque value both play a roll with the altered tolerences.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Main studs or bolts - 01/29/15 11:01 PM

Quote:

I will also add, check your cylinder bores.

Really no reason to run studs IMO




When torque specs are changed everything distorts differently ...

unless you are a flat rate mechanic ...
Posted By: gss

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/09/15 10:16 PM

Brief update, the machine shop called and said everything checks out fine except the balance job from 440 Source was less than perfect but he didn't advise changing anything there.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/09/15 11:03 PM

Even less than perfect is probably 10 times better than the balance job as it rolled out of the factory!

R.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/10/15 12:46 AM

Something to be aware that happened with my 512 stroker with ARP studs and Road Race Pan.

Cinching down nuts on the oil pan studs at rear main retainer I felt the torque wrench suddenly loosen as though I had stripped either the nut or the stud that was screwed into the Mancini aluminum retainer.

Pulling the pan off, I found this. The number 5 rear main stud had barely caught the oil pan and what I had felt was the pan that had been caught, suddenly slid a bit as torque was applied thereby given me that quick release that I had felt.

Yes this main stud appeared to be properly bottomed in it block hole (I pulled it out to ensure nothing else was in the hole,,,all was well).

A bit of surgery with a Dremel rounded of a bit of the nut side of the stud and all is well.

To this day not certain if was a stud problem or Road Race pan issue. Only one gasket on pan,,,no windage,,, perhaps this had something to do with it,,,places pan closer to block,,,but doubt it.

Attached picture 8424384-image.jpg
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/10/15 03:00 AM

Quote:

Something to be aware that happened with my 512 stroker with ARP studs and Road Race Pan.

Cinching down nuts on the oil pan studs at rear main retainer I felt the torque wrench suddenly loosen as though I had stripped either the nut or the stud that was screwed into the Mancini aluminum retainer.

Pulling the pan off, I found this. The number 5 rear main stud had barely caught the oil pan and what I had felt was the pan that had been caught, suddenly slid a bit as torque was applied thereby given me that quick release that I had felt.

Yes this main stud appeared to be properly bottomed in it block hole (I pulled it out to ensure nothing else was in the hole,,,all was well).

A bit of surgery with a Dremel rounded of a bit of the nut side of the stud and all is well.

To this day not certain if was a stud problem or Road Race pan issue. Only one gasket on pan,,,no windage,,, perhaps this had something to do with it,,,places pan closer to block,,,but doubt it.

Some, not all , of ARP Mopar main stud kits come with two shorter studs in them, those two go in the back on # 5 main cap I make my own crankshaft scrapers that get glued to the block on the passenger and the half of one oil pan gasket gets glue onto the remaining oil pan surfaces and then go from there I use the scraper and stock windage trays with two more oil pan gaskets, lots of clearances between the block and oil pan with all that mess
Posted By: gss

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/25/15 09:38 PM

Final update. Got the block back from the machine shop. They checked everything and all is good. Even the mains didn't need align honing after installing the studs.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/25/15 11:20 PM

Quote:

Final update. Got the block back from the machine shop. They checked everything and all is good. Even the mains didn't need align honing after installing the studs.


Clean the block and main caps up real well and install the main bearings and crankshaft with the oil you'll run in the motor on both, without the rear main seal, and see how easy the crankshaft turns using your hand on the snout to rotate it Let us know what you find out Can you measure the I.D. of the bearings and the O.D. of the main journals ? If so please let us know how much clearance you have with no oil on both
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/26/15 03:30 AM

Main thing to remember with studs
since the studs are bigger and can be right up against the cap--it can screw up the thrust situation--the fix is the same --enlarge the hole in the cap--allowing you to move the center main cap enough to line up the thrust like you need to
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/26/15 03:47 AM

Good news! Sounds like you have a pretty decent block then

I assume he also checked the cylinders after installing & torquing the studs?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Main studs or bolts - 02/26/15 05:57 AM

Quote:

Final update. Got the block back from the machine shop. They checked everything and all is good. Even the mains didn't need align honing after installing the studs.




When you get to installing the crank and mains.. make
sure you SET the end play.. with the mains just snug
give the crank a whack back and forth with a dead blow
type hammer to set the thrust bearing then torque
it down
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