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Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770"

Posted By: 451Mopar

Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 10:40 AM

Looking to find a spring for the Hughes CNC max wedge victors that can handle a 0.770" lift solid (mid 270's duration?) roller cam with only a 1.900" install height?
After looking over the new heads, the spring seats really can't be cut for more install height because the intake port is pretty tall and not much material seperating the inner intake seat from the port.
Right now I am measuring 1.880" install height with a standard retainer and locks, and no spring seat or cup.
If I wanted to use my PAC 1325 springs with a 2.00" install height, 0.060" spring seat, and +0.100" retainers, I would need valve that are about 0.100" longer?
I measured the valve length at 5.375", and if I was going to change the valves, I would be looking at custom 5.5550" length valves to use with a standard retainer. So it looks like it would be easier to just find a valve spring that will work. The heads are machined to 1.710" spring pocket, but I'm not sure if the T&D rockers will clear a 1.625" diameter spring?
Posted By: quickd100

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 02:05 PM

You can also use +.050 keepers with your +.100 retainers. The dirty little secret though is there is no industry standard for retainer or keeper height. One companies +.100 retainer may be the same as another's standard. You will have to make some phone calls.Dave
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 03:02 PM

There are different spring seat thicknesses as well. It shouldn't be a big issue to find stuff to get you to enough height for a .770 gross lift. I used Manley +.050 keepers, and if I recall +.100 Manley retainers with the thinnest cups I could find and am able to get 2.050 on 440-1 heads.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 06:22 PM

Quote:

Looking to find a spring for the Hughes CNC max wedge victors that can handle a 0.770" lift solid (mid 270's duration?) roller cam with only a 1.900" install height?

These might do it for you.
Manley: 221424-16
250 at 2.000
800 at 1.150
coil bind 1.070
1.64" OD
0.87" ID

But it would be nice if you could have the heads setup for 1.95 or more installed height. The T&D individual cylinder paired rockers should clear the valve springs (they do on my 440-1 heads with 1.65 T&D). But from what other's have posted, the single shaft per head design could have issues with the 1.63" dia valve springs. Do a search.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 06:34 PM

I am going to use Isky 9999-RAD on my Victor MW heads. They are good for .800" lift @ 2.00 ( +.050 locks in my case ) but my stuff will be setup for 1.950. Accounting for lash I should be good to go and I think the 1.600 diamter should help with rocker clearance. I will never understand why Edelbrock didn't design this head for a 2.00" installed height.

Jim did you have someone install your paired T&D setup and if so can would you recommend them? I have been looking at "fixing" my Victors with either paired T&D or paired Jesel stuff. There isn't anyone around here that does stuff like that as far as I know.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 07:14 PM

On my old victor heads, I used a +0.100" retainer and a +0.050" lock setup, but the inside of the rocker hit the retainer before the valve tip. That was without lash caps. I think with lash caps, it may have worked?

I was looking at the COMP 951 valve springs, but it is 1.620 diameter? It would be 262 @ 1.900", 742 @ 1.150", coil binds @ 1.100".
I was planning to use the +0.100" retainers.
Most of the spring seats I have seen are around 0.060"?

I'll have to look up some of those other springs
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 07:55 PM

I mocked up the same deal with +.100 retainers and +.050 locks and there was not nearly enough valve tip height. I think we are either going to be stuck using +.100 retainers or +.050/.100 locks. My street roller is right around .750 lift with the lash factored in so you might have additional challenges if you are going to have .770 net lift.

This exact topic is one of the reasons I am considering moving to a paired rocker setup like Jesel or T&D. Even then I might have to install longer valves. I'm shopping machinists so we will see how feasible my plan is cost wise.

I have asked some of the same questions on my 66 Charger build thread. As usual I didn't get any responses.

Here are the Isky 9999-RAD specs:

Specifications:
Style: Dual with Damper
Outer OD/ID: 1.600"/1.150"
Inner OD/ID: 1.040"/.745"
Seat Pressure: 250 lbs. @ 2.000"
Open Pressure: 770 lbs. @ 1.200"
Rate: 650
Coil Bind: 1.150"
Max Lift: .800"

They are 283 @ 1.950 and 738 @ 1.250

Keep me posted on what you decide to use. I can use all of the help I can get because I don't have a clue on this stuff lol.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/11/15 09:08 PM

I went thru this issue with my EZ heads when I moved past .800 lift. What worked for me was to buy a bunch of different locks and retainers and then try the different combinations.

You only have to buy one retainer for the test, not the whole set of 16. I think I ended up buying about 5 or 6 different brands of retainers and locks. The advertised measurements did not match the real measurements.

You have to double check the rocker arm clearance with every combination so that adds to the work.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 02:08 AM

Quote:

I went thru this issue with my EZ heads when I moved past .800 lift. What worked for me was to buy a bunch of different locks and retainers and then try the different combinations.

You only have to buy one retainer for the test, not the whole set of 16. I think I ended up buying about 5 or 6 different brands of retainers and locks. The advertised measurements did not match the real measurements.

You have to double check the rocker arm clearance with every combination so that adds to the work.



I'm a dumb Millwright so I've got 6 sets of retainers and 3 sets of keepers now. I ended up using Howards +.100 retainers, Manley +.050 keepers, and Manley lashcaps. I also had to relieve the rockerarms for valve retainer clearance.I had to grind the lashcaps to fit them to the stem and keepers. This was on my Hemi, you wedge guys got it made as far as valve train issues. The valvetrain on a Hemi will drive you to drink but in the end it's well worth the extra hassle.Dave
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 03:39 AM

Are we talking tool steel or Ti retainers? I was thinking tool steel might clear the rocker arm better.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 05:55 AM

PAC makes springs that are only 1.550 OD so that helps a bunch with the rocker arm clearance. But the PAC springs have 1.20 open height so you need 1.970 for the installed height. So you need to find 0.070 of extra installed height. Either with the lock or the retainer. The good news is that the 1.550 retainer is smaller and lighter so it might just clear the rocker arm. I'd order a set of 1.550 retainers and some +0.050 valve locks and see if you get there.

Another option is to call someone who sets up a lot of Victor race heads and see if they will sell you the parts. Dwayne might know or perhaps Hughes.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 06:05 AM

You can also try PAC-1335. It is a small diameter spring that handles .800 lift with an installed height of 1.800. It is also only 1.300 OD but it has 250 on the seat and 840 lbs over the nose with 0.770 lift. Should be adequate. You would want to set it up at 1.05 + your net lift. So 1.820 if you have .770 of actual lift.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 06:11 AM

The PAC-1335 is a really nasty spring so you might want to talk to PAC before you use it. They might want you to use a Ti valve depending on your cam profile. The PAC-1225 is probably a better spring for you and they cost half as much but you'll need to find the extra installed height.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 07:06 AM

One other thing I am running into problems with is losing spring height from the bottom, i.e. the cup or locator. For instance the Isky spring locator for the 9999-RAD is .045 thick. No problem with a 2.000 installed height. With 1.950 I end up with this:

1.950
-0.762 (gross lift)
-0.024 (lash)
-0.045 (spring locator)

1.119 (total spring compression distance)

Isky lists these springs as good for 1.200 and in coil bind at 1.150

The simple math above tells me I will be in coil bind and need at least another .050 or more. Is this correct?

Andy, my research on spring thus far has led me to believe that if you want a spring that has enough pressure to run a large solid roller most of the time a 1.550 spring will not be enough pressure. I thought the rates of the 1.600 Isky spring looked good but the installed height is getting in the way again. I'm still thinking paired rocker arms and perhaps even longer valves would be the hot ticket for longevity and reliability here. Thoughts?
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/12/15 08:50 PM

There are small diameter springs that have plenty of pressure for a solid roller cam. I listed a couple of options in my posts above. The downside is that small diameter springs with a lot of force have a lot of internal stress. So that means they are expensive time bombs.

All of this is covered by the general principle of "no free lunch".
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/13/15 06:27 AM

Quote:

The PAC-1335 is a really nasty spring so you might want to talk to PAC before you use it. They might want you to use a Ti valve depending on your cam profile. The PAC-1225 is probably a better spring for you and they cost half as much but you'll need to find the extra installed height.



Thanks. I have the PAC-1325 (expensive 1225) springs on my old Max wedge Victors with +0.100" Ti Crower retainers, but the spring pockets were cut so I have 1.950" install height. That left about 0.050" thickness between the pocket and unported port.
The CNC Victors only have a bit over 0.010" between the spring pocket and port.

I will mock-up my T&D shaft rockers at the 1.900" install height and see how large of a diameter spring will clear.

Right now I am looking at using a COMP 2232/2235 HXL cam 301/307 advertised, 272/278@0.050" duration 0.726"/0.726" lift with a 1.6:1 rocker arm. (originally, I mis-read the specs, it is 0.772 with a 1.7:1 rocker arm.)
For a spring, the COMP 951 looks like it will work if it clears the rocker arms (it is 1.620" diameter.)
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/13/15 07:09 PM

Quote:

Jim did you have someone install your paired T&D setup and if so can would you recommend them? I have been looking at "fixing" my Victors with either paired T&D or paired Jesel stuff. There isn't anyone around here that does stuff like that as far as I know.

BEST Machine did these heads. I bought them used from the original purchaser who bought them from BEST.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/13/15 10:26 PM

Quote:

Right now I am looking at using a COMP 2232/2235 HXL cam 301/307 advertised, 272/278@0.050" duration 0.726"/0.726" lift with a 1.6:1 rocker arm.


Just my - When I was working w/ Dwayne Porter on getting a new roller for my Victor-headed 440 combo, he looked briefly at the HXL lobes and then said he thought better of it because he knows I actually drive my junk on the street (at least when it's running ).

He backed it down to the RX lobes due to the success he's seen w/ valvetrain life w/ that lobe series. Not sure how much of a street/strip application yours is, but I figured I'd pass that on.
Posted By: OhioGTX

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/14/15 01:18 AM

I have had decent luck with K-Motion K-950 springs and Victor heads. My cam is 280@50 with .714 lift. (using 1.6 rockers); I have Ti retainers, Harland Sharp rockers and old school mopar lack wrinkle valve covers. I mention the valve covers because I hear others speak of clearance issues. I have no clearance issues.
My Victor heads are standard port if that makes a difference. The engine has seen 7200+ rpm many times with no issues to report other than some broken dampeners, this after 4+ years and a good number of passes. I am sure plenty of other springs will work Comp-943, PAC 1225, etc. come to mind. The car with this setup runs very consistent 9.70’s at 3500lbs.

Attached File
8395323-68GTX499.pdf  (186 downloads)
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/14/15 02:19 AM

Well, not going to be doing very much street driving with this car now that I have the convertible running, but it is still a really heavy car, so looking to still get a good amount of torque out of it. Looking at the 4,000 to 7,000 RPM range. For now I will use the Indy single plane and 4150 Holley HP (1,000 cfm) carb.
I'd like to get the Indy tunnel ram with dual 750 cfm E-85 carbs and run E-85, but I don't have the $$$ for that now or anytime in the near future
Posted By: R5P7 Bantam

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/14/15 02:41 AM

Quote:

I have had decent luck with K-Motion K-950 springs and Victor heads. My cam is [Email]280@50[/Email] with .714 lift. (using 1.6 rockers); I have Ti retainers, Harland Sharp rockers and old school mopar lack wrinkle valve covers. I mention the valve covers because I hear others speak of clearance issues. I have no clearance issues.
My Victor heads are standard port if that makes a difference. The engine has seen 7200+ rpm many times with no issues to report other than some broken dampeners, this after 4+ years and a good number of passes. I am sure plenty of other springs will work Comp-943, PAC 1225, etc. come to mind. The car with this setup runs very consistent 9.70’s at 3500lbs.




That K-950 spring is an excellent spring for the money. I have used this spring on countless engines with fantastic longevity. For the ~$250 price tag, we would get 500-600 runs before replacing. Yes I broke a few over the years, but after 500+ runs, the spring pressures were within 10-12 lbs of initial installation weight. To me, it's one of the most unknown "good" springs in the 1.55" dia.

Mike
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 09:37 AM

Before I give up and send my stuff of to the professionals I ordered up some parts and thought I'd share my findings. First off I'm not so sure that a 1.600 spring will even fit these heads. 1.550 might be the hot ticket here. After talking to the folks at PSI my conclusions were confirmed - the smaller the diameter spring the smaller "window" of spring pressure you have from seat to open. Anyway I;ll check more on the feasibility of the 1.600" spring after work tomorrow night.

This first picture is an Isky TI-92 (1.500" OD) retainer with an Isky super 7 +.050 lock. The height mic was just a few tics over 1.9300 with this setup. I still need more installed height to make this thing live, especially for street action. Also of note is that this is with .060 worth of shim stock under the rocker shaft.

Attached picture 8402358-IMG_20150119_192221_265.jpg
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 09:39 AM

This is the sweep pattern I came up with for .770 lift. Kind of a moot point without enough installed height!

Attached picture 8402359-IMG_20150119_220212_966.jpg
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 09:42 AM

A little more light showing the retainer clearance. I don't know if it was my mind playing tricks on me or what bus as the roller tip pattern was moved toward the center of the valve the rocker became noticeably easier to rock.

Attached picture 8402360-IMG_20150119_220414_875.jpg
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 09:44 AM

A picture of the steel Isky 275 retainer and a super 7 keeper. I also lost .020 of installed height with this retainer compared to the titanium setup (1.910"). I see an order to Delwest in my future!

Attached picture 8402361-IMG_20150119_220553_116.jpg
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 09:46 AM

This is a picture of .770 net lift with a 1.7 ratio rocker. More to come...

Attached picture 8402362-IMG_20150119_221246_138.jpg
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 11:02 AM

Interesting? Are those Jesel rockers?
What offset, and how much pushrod clearance with the 1.7:1 ratio?

I am going to take my heads and rockers to Dave Sarno at SCH Racing Heads and have them flowed and see how much longer valves would cost.
He did a good job repairing my B-1 b/s heads and got me a discount on the Manley valves. I also had him put a good valve job on my 440 source heads and flow them too.

If I go with the longer valves, we will just mull off the stands and use the max wedge type blocks like I dis to my other set of victor heads.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/20/15 08:23 PM

Rocker true ratio doesn't remain constant through the lift cycle. It starts out higher.

R.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/21/15 06:41 AM

I ordered the cam from Comp cams today. It's been about five years since I ordered the last "custom" cam, and seems prices went up on them? This one is a 23-000-11 core and the last one was a 23-000-9 core. Not sure what the difference is in the cores? Price was $411.79
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Which valve springs for Max wedge Victors and 0.770" - 01/21/15 07:55 AM

That sounds right for the last billet cam core I had ground.

As far as the rockers in my pic they are Hughes .650 offset. I will be using .180 offset Isky lifters on the intakes so no problem there.

As far as valve length what are you shooting for? I did more measuring and it seems that the intake valves end up having .010 more installed height than the exhaust. This will further complicate things, at least for me. How does your stuff measure up?

Here are some Ferrea valve lengths and part numbers to chew on:

"Stock" Edlebrock valve OAL : 5.350" (installed height = 1.920*)
F1222P 2.20" head OAL 5.400" (installed height = 1.970*)
F2260P 2.20" head OAL 5.460" (installed height = 2.030*)

*installed height measured using Isky TI-92 retainer, +.050 super 7 lock, .045 spring seat*

Anyway, 2.030 installed height would allow for quite a few good spring choices if the geometry could be worked out. If you used a .060 spring cup that could bring the installed height to 2.015 and be in 2.00" spring territory.

Thoughts?

I also measured up the possibility of using a +.100 retainer or +.050 retainer/+.050 lock combination and it's a no-go. The valve tip is .055-.060 above the top of the retainer.
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