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Educate me on wideband systems

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:27 AM

I think the next investment I'll make for my car will be a wideband tuning system. I don't know anything about them though, so tell me what I should look for. Whats good? whats bad? and how will they work for me? I see kits with in-car guages, others that just lead to a harness. I assume that goes to an ECU, which I don't have (??) I also see kits that have a handheld box....



My car is an old-school big block with a Holley double pumper. I don't need expensive race stuff, but don't want junk either.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:48 AM

Look to see if it has a reorder and rpm... mine doesnt
so I need a second person or a tape recorder that I
can call off numbers... what I havent tried yet is a
video of the tach and read out.... mine is a LM-1
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:17 AM

I'm envisioning something like this....

http://www.jegs.com/i/FAST/244/170634/10...CFQdsfgoddDoAbQ

When you say "reorder and RPM" Mike, are you describing a feature that would let you recall a pass to view after the run? Am I following you properly?

The FAST one above says it can be hooked up to a "data-logger". So if I'm following this correctly, this kit itself does not offer a "reorder", but can be hooked up to one (???).
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:22 AM

http://www.jegs.com/i/Innovate-Motorsports/540/3802/10002/-1

This one says it includes a port to output info directly to a laptop. So, you would then be able to record runs, correct? This seems like it covers what I would need.

What are your thoughts on this kit?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:38 AM

Quote:

I'm envisioning something like this....

http://www.jegs.com/i/FAST/244/170634/10...CFQdsfgoddDoAbQ

When you say "reorder and RPM" Mike, are you describing a feature that would let you recall a pass to view after the run? Am I following you properly?

The FAST one above says it can be hooked up to a "data-logger". So if I'm following this correctly, this kit itself does not offer a "reorder", but can be hooked up to one (???).




That is a live time unit and no it doesnt have any
recording or RPM in it... the recorder is basically
a data logger but small.. without rpm you have a hard
time figuring out where your rich or lean.. with the
rpm and recorder you can drive or run down the track
then go back and replay the data then make adjustments
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:42 AM

Quote:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Innovate-Motorsports/540/3802/10002/-1

This one says it includes a port to output info directly to a laptop. So, you would then be able to record runs, correct? This seems like it covers what I would need.

What are your thoughts on this kit?




This one is the same company that makes mine.. mine
is a hand held box(I dont hold it)
Posted By: ademon

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 08:00 AM

I'm in the same boat, need one to tune my mechanical 6 pack. Here's one I was looking at, reviews look good.
http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3844-Complete-All-In-One/dp/B004MDT8MW
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 08:14 AM

Quote:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Innovate-Motorsports/540/3802/10002/-1

This one says it includes a port to output info directly to a laptop. So, you would then be able to record runs, correct? This seems like it covers what I would need.

What are your thoughts on this kit?




That one uses the same controller as what I use on my EFI. Innovate LC 1.

The LM 1 is the handheld version. You might find one on E-bay for some savings if you want a portable unit.

They use an O2 sensor for a VW so they are readily available.

I've had no problems with my LC 1. Just make sure you wire it up EXACTLY as per instructions. Grounds and power sources are NOT all created equal.

Most problems can be traced back to somebody grabbing any old power wire from under the dash or tieing a ground to the nearest piece of metal on the car. The sensor runs between 0-1v so it doesn't take much to cause it to tell you lies.

Kevin
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 01:45 PM

I use two of the FAST 170634 kits but mine is a street car. I do not need to record and I leave mine mounted in the car year around. I take a notepad and pencil with me and I write down any notes that I need for tuning changes.
I can easily see why a racer would need the data logger type of system due to the speed of which everything happens on the track.

Attached picture 8388094-170634-DualAnalog.png
Posted By: sr4440

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 03:57 PM

if you want a real nice unit I would go with a daytona sensors WEGO III. It has built in data logging and some nice software. there is a guy on ebay that made me a great deal on some daytona sensors, he goes by "partsforspeed" name is chris.

https://partsforspeed.com/home/gauges-ac...ning-gauge.html


if you have a go pro camera or use your laptop with a cheap web cam pointed at the gauge.


Joe

PS after you use a O2 sensor you will wonder why you didn't do it earlier.
Posted By: Adobedude

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 04:11 PM

I use a Daytona Sensors WEGO IV and a Go Pro, but I also down load the run and convert it to an excel file so I can print it out.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 04:33 PM

I went with an "Innovate" system from Summit. Has lots of capabilities for data logging, lap top downloading, etc., which I don't use at this time. Right now my data logger is a camera. My biggest problem is remembering to turn on the camera before I make a pass - - and turning it off after I make a pass ( I have lots of return road footage ) . Also, since I don't have a lap top. I have to wait till I get home to view the run on my desk top. I'm living in the dark ages when it comes to electronics ( still use the vehicle frame as a ground ).

Attached picture 8388168-datalogger1.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 04:43 PM

I really like the EFI I went with(Holley multipoint)..
it has a data logger built in which can be down loaded
to a laptop.. but the system is a self learn and is
trying to drive to the optimum all the time... I just
fired up the Rampage for the first time yesterday..
its still learning at this time.. but I'll take it
out in the spring to get the full learn into it
Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:00 PM

Hummmm, lots of opinions.

Unless you want to try watching the gage rather than the road, or try hooking up a GoPro, or have a passenger with you while gathering data, get a unit with the ability to record.

And RPM data is also a near-must. Then your data needs to be on some kind of graph in order to make sense. So just having an A/F ratio line on a spread sheet is not much help. You will need the ability to manipulate the fuel line and coordinate it with RPM.

If you don't already have a data logger, do yourself a favor and get a wide band with RPM AND data record abilities. Believe me, after a day of tuning, making multiple changes and having multiple charts, the ability to have them organized in a comprehensive set of charts and the ability to toggle between them is invaluable.

I use an LM-1. Has Innovate worked through the initial issues that plagued the LM-2? If so, then that is the unit that I would recommend.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:06 PM

Quote:

I'm envisioning something like this....

http://www.jegs.com/i/FAST/244/170634/10...CFQdsfgoddDoAbQ

When you say "reorder and RPM" Mike, are you describing a feature that would let you recall a pass to view after the run? Am I following you properly?

The FAST one above says it can be hooked up to a "data-logger". So if I'm following this correctly, this kit itself does not offer a "reorder", but can be hooked up to one (???).




Any of those will work and I bought a used LM-1 from a member here and once properly installed and free air calibrated, it`s a never ending tuning aid............
Posted By: OUTLAWD

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:18 PM

I picked up an Innovate LM-2 for cheap locally of CL. Guy used it for a week to tune his Harley.

Can feed the tach signal in, and has inputs for other elec devices (elec fuel pressure, etc.) so you can record a run and look at AFR vs. RPM to see where and when it need fuel.

It has a 1/4-20 hole in the back, so I mounted it to a camera tripod mount next to my gauge cluster. Driving around with it in my hand, trying to steer, shift and look at the AFR was a bit of a chore
Posted By: topfueldart

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:27 PM

I'd stay away from an LM-2. General consensus on the net is more have troubles than don't. I was heavily considering one, when I ran across an extremely disheartening Amazon review from one of our members, Nigel Tufnel. My LM-1 failed all together after a couple years as well.

For a semi permanent gauge, I'd go Auto Meter or AEM. For something removable, I like the FAST box.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:34 PM

Quote:

I'd stay away from an LM-2. General consensus on the net is more have troubles than don't. I was heavily considering one, when I ran across an extremely disheartening Amazon review from one of our members, Nigel Tufnel. My LM-1 failed all together after a couple years as well.

For a semi permanent gauge, I'd go Auto Meter or AEM. For something removable, I like the FAST box.




I had a error show up on my LM-1 after a couple of
years so I sent it back into them... the issue was
the extension cable to the O2.. had a broken wire..
since then its been fine... I would like to add the
data logger and rpm to it
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:41 PM

Quote:

Hummmm, lots of opinions.

Unless you want to try watching the gage rather than the road, or try hooking up a GoPro, or have a passenger with you while gathering data, get a unit with the ability to record.

And RPM data is also a near-must. Then your data needs to be on some kind of graph in order to make sense. So just having an A/F ratio line on a spread sheet is not much help. You will need the ability to manipulate the fuel line and coordinate it with RPM.

If you don't already have a data logger, do yourself a favor and get a wide band with RPM AND data record abilities. Believe me, after a day of tuning, making multiple changes and having multiple charts, the ability to have them organized in a comprehensive set of charts and the ability to toggle between them is invaluable.

I use an LM-1. Has Innovate worked through the initial issues that plagued the LM-2? If so, then that is the unit that I would recommend.




For sure the way to go. I actually have a roll bar mount for my camera that sets it far enough back to allow me to capture the tach, boost gage, and AF gage all at the same time. Still a long ways from a data logger, but a far sight ( pardon the pun )better than trying to monitor multiple readings while going down the track. No problems with my LM-2 so far.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:48 PM

Ideally I think you would like to log O2, RPM and MAP. I don't know if you can monitor MAP with with any of these tools using a carb tho.

Being able to see MAP and A/F helps to smooth out part throttle and transitions in your curve.

Kevin
Posted By: OUTLAWD

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 05:58 PM

Quote:

I'd stay away from an LM-2. General consensus on the net is more have troubles than don't. I was heavily considering one, when I ran across an extremely disheartening Amazon review from one of our members, Nigel Tufnel. My LM-1 failed all together after a couple years as well.

For a semi permanent gauge, I'd go Auto Meter or AEM. For something removable, I like the FAST box.




I had heard (read) the horror stories as well, and they use the Bosch instead of NTK sensor, but (knock on wood) mine was great all last year, plenty of street/track/race gas use. and for what I have into it, if it craps out, I'm not really at a loss.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:26 PM

Quote:

Ideally I think you would like to log O2, RPM and MAP. I don't know if you can monitor MAP with with any of these tools using a carb tho.

Being able to see MAP and A/F helps to smooth out part throttle and transitions in your curve.

Kevin




On the EFI it does monitor the map along with the AFR
and rpm along with a lot more.. on a carb that might
be rough without a data logger
I was out in the shop running my ride so it would
start the learning process and along with me learning
this system... lots of data there
Posted By: ademon

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:35 PM

Wondering if the OP wants it more for track or street.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:41 PM

Quote:

Wondering if the OP wants it more for track or street.




I think its mainly a street ride
Posted By: MikeStahl

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:44 PM

Mr P body...

what EFI system r u using....holley HP?

Mike
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 06:47 PM

Quote:

Mr P body...

what EFI system r u using....holley HP?

Mike




Correct... I bought the universal 550 kit(1000 cfm
4150 base throttle body with multipoint)
EDIT
this kit
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sys...s/parts/550-500
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:11 PM

If you're not going to get one with some sort of linked computer/box go with an AEM, price is good and they're known to be very accurate. I think I paid 160 on Amazon for mine.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:17 PM

.
Posted By: 1320Dart

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:23 PM

does any of them read 2, O2 sensors? Like a right side and a left side?
Posted By: BradH

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:31 PM

Quote:

does any of them read 2, O2 sensors? Like a right side and a left side?



Some are single channel and others have 2 to allow you to read both banks separately. I'd like to have a dual-channel, but will be using a single channel LM-1 when my junk is running again.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:41 PM

Quote:

does any of them read 2, O2 sensors? Like a right side and a left side?




Yes the LM2 can be bought with two sensors. My LM2 has been flawless, it records to a memory card and the data is viewed on my computer. It will take up to five inputs and is supposed to be capable of reading OBDII error codes
Posted By: MikeStahl

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:42 PM

Mr P
Posted By: ademon

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 07:58 PM

Is the data logger and all that needed with a street car where you can keep an eye on it. I'm needing one to get the idle, transition, low speed and high speed cruse where the car spends 95% of the time at correct.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 08:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Wondering if the OP wants it more for track or street.




I think its mainly a street ride





It is mainly a street ride that currently sees the track a few times a year. I hope to be racing more frequently in the future (when my daughter is done with Softball) however, so I'm trying to build the car with bracket racing in mind.
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 08:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

does any of them read 2, O2 sensors? Like a right side and a left side?




Yes the LM2 can be bought with two sensors. My LM2 has been flawless, it records to a memory card and the data is viewed on my computer. It will take up to five inputs and is supposed to be capable of reading OBDII error codes


just bought a LM2 my self and also bought the exhaust clamp so it can be used on other vehicles, also bought the rpm pickup and a couple of SD cards at best buy to store the info then plug that into a laptop,,,which I have yet to get, I down loaded the instruction manual from Innovates web site, and 50 pages later the printer finally stopped spitting out paper.
Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 08:34 PM

Quote:

I'd stay away from an LM-2. General consensus on the net is more have troubles than don't. I was heavily considering one, when I ran across an extremely disheartening Amazon review from one of our members, Nigel Tufnel. My LM-1 failed all together after a couple years as well.

For a semi permanent gauge, I'd go Auto Meter or AEM. For something removable, I like the FAST box.



Yes I have read about this too on all the EFI calibration forums, one of the top tools the professional tuners use is the AFM1000 which is a laboratory grade air/fuel sensor which uses a high quality NTK o2 sensor which costs $1500.
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8702&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The next step down from that was the discontinued NGK Powerdex AFX which is now replaced by the AFR500
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2337
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 08:35 PM

I have a LM1 that I bought a long time ago with the RPM addition and then ended up buying the LC1 kit later to get the dual wide ban readings, it has been wonderful I had it mounted in my Duster on the shifter console, I ended up using the recording feature and then transferring that session to my laptop so I could look at it safely with the car stopped It quit transferring, I'm not sure if it is the unit or my old IBM98E laptop. I called Innovate and they don't support the LM1 any more, they did offer to take it(the main box) in on trade for a newer high price unit I sold the Duster several years ago so I don't have a real need for it right now, I'm going to see if I can use someone elses laptop to load the Innovate software on and hook the unit up to one of my other cars and see if it will work in the other car. If not I will probally try and trade it in, if Innovate will still do that I bought a FAST unit way back when they first came out to use on dyno testing, it was a dual unit and quit working on one side after about 5 minutes of use the first time. Comp warrenty it but it stil wouldn't record and playback where I could see it and understand it on that screen OP, take your time to get what you want
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 09:34 PM

I agree with CAB and the quote at bottom Of course it depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what other equipment you have, as well as your technical comfort. For some, a vcr tape of a gage on their dash might be sufficient.

For just monitoring a street car, a gage is enough. It would be like another dash gage. Glance at them as you like or need. Video if you need. That said...

Wideband O2 (WBO2) sensors effectiveness as a measurement of Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) depends on the system they are attached to. Because of that, all of them can give false and entirely misleading reading in certain situations. Innovate's systems will often give an error code in such situations, which IMO is better than a false reading. Their system is also very responsive, so you can see a lot of detail.

Datalogging is just what you think. Traditionally in testing it was a seperate device that would record information from the sensors. The old analog way was on scolling paper that a little pen moved up and down. The digital way usually involves very quickly checking each input channel and record it into memory. How fast is needed depends on whether you are trying to see each pulse down the exhaust on a very quick 1/4 mile car or a more general trend getting on the highway.

* Innovate's LM1, LM2 for example incorporate both the datalogging function and the WBO2 operation into a single unit. However the LM1 did not log additional channels without a second auxilery device.

* Inputs. In addition to the WBO2, on the drag strip an rpm input is very helpful. RPM usually just needs an input hookup that can recognize pulses. For tuning the carb on the street or non-straightline competion, both a manifold air pressure (MAP - vacuum for most of us) and a throttle position sensor (TPS) are very helpful. Having just one is still a big help. So having the option for two more input channels on the datalogger would be good if that's of interest.

I've mentioned Innovate here because I've used their stuff. My experience with their loggers is that they are consumer grade packaging and pricing on an engineering product. It's not a plug and play, super easy to use. The older logger (LM1) works best with a computer that has a serial port. But the version of software that works best needs something newer than Win98 SE. Issues with the LM2 seem to be solved and seems like you may not need auxilery units to log the rpm etc.

Over on the Racingfuelsystems forum, you'll notice racepack and innovate logs seem to be the most commonly posted and discussed. I'd check out those manufactures websites as well as FAST before deciding.

PS. The reason TPS and MAP is useful in tuning is in figuring out which carb circuit is working under non WOT conditions. Say the car is at 3000 rpm and coasting, its idle circuit, wheras 2000 rpm on a hill might be 35% throttle and onto the mains. But without the MAP or TPS, its hard to know exactly what was going in when you look at the AFR log. By testing and keep good records, you can figure out what is going on but those two devices make it much easier.



Quote:


Unless you want to try watching the gage rather than the road, or try hooking up a GoPro, or have a passenger with you while gathering data, get a unit with the ability to record.

And RPM data is also a near-must. Then your data needs to be on some kind of graph in order to make sense. So just having an A/F ratio line on a spread sheet is not much help. You will need the ability to manipulate the fuel line and coordinate it with RPM.

If you don't already have a data logger, do yourself a favor and get a wide band with RPM AND data record abilities. Believe me, after a day of tuning, making multiple changes and having multiple charts, the ability to have them organized in a comprehensive set of charts and the ability to toggle between them is invaluable.

I use an LM-1. Has Innovate worked through the initial issues that plagued the LM-2? If so, then that is the unit that I would recommend.




Posted By: 1320Dart

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 11:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

does any of them read 2, O2 sensors? Like a right side and a left side?




Yes the LM2 can be bought with two sensors. My LM2 has been flawless, it records to a memory card and the data is viewed on my computer. It will take up to five inputs and is supposed to be capable of reading OBDII error codes




Can the LM2 read an alcohol car too?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 11:25 PM

Maybe, maybe not I would call Innovate to make sure, you really need the NTK(expensive) sensors to read the AFR accurately on any alcholol motor is what I've been told by several alcholol racers
Posted By: 1320Dart

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 11:31 PM

Quote:

Maybe, maybe not I would call Innovate to make sure, you really need the NTK(expensive) sensors to read the AFR accurately on any alcholol motor is what I've been told by several alcholol racers




That's not what I wanted to hear from you Cab!!
Posted By: second 70

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 11:52 PM

I use the innovate 3844mtx-l on my hemi with a stage V manifold and 2-fours and works great. My friends have them on high horse sigle four chevys and fords also without any problems. Easiest electronic product I've every installed.
Posted By: sr4440

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/07/15 11:58 PM

Quote:

Maybe, maybe not I would call Innovate to make sure, you really need the NTK(expensive) sensors to read the AFR accurately on any alcholol motor is what I've been told by several alcholol racers




you do not need a special NTK sensor to run methanol unless you are running a blower, they run 4.2-4.4 AFR. a normal O2 sensor will output down to around 4.5 AFR. A NA engine runs well above that.

Dayton sensors claims that their WEGO 5 unit will go down to 3.2 on a bosch sensor.

I run 8 Bosch sensors on the dyno and 2 on the racecar and i use methanol.


Joe
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 01:05 AM

NTK wideband sensors are IIRC used OEM on a lot of Japanese and Korean cars. I replaced one in my wife's Hyundai and I believe it ran around $130 at the cheapest place in town. The plug was a U shape with five pins, looked like kind of a standard arrangement.

The sensor was really easy to get to, with the transverse engine it was in the top middle of the exhaust manifold, I hardly had to bend over to get at it.

I bet there are hundreds of used-but-working ones in recycle yards.

R.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 01:23 AM

When I was working in the exhaust lab we used Bosch
O2s predominately as the main source... I dont know now
Posted By: ademon

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 01:35 AM

Quote:

I use the innovate 3844mtx-l on my hemi with a stage V manifold and 2-fours and works great. My friends have them on high horse sigle four chevys and fords also without any problems. Easiest electronic product I've every installed.




That's the one I'm looking to get. Do you use any type of data logger with it?
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 03:47 AM

Great information here! So as I've read through this thread and continued looking and reading at manufacturer websites, I think I'm leaning towards the Innovative LM-2 kit. It'll probably be a few weeks before I can pull the trigger. Thanks for all the reply's and keep them coming.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 04:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I use the innovate 3844mtx-l on my hemi with a stage V manifold and 2-fours and works great. My friends have them on high horse sigle four chevys and fords also without any problems. Easiest electronic product I've every installed.




That's the one I'm looking to get. Do you use any type of data logger with it?




Trying to fully understand the difference between the LM-2 and the MXT-L....
The LM-2 feeds info through a handheld device that allows you to control various functions, record sessions for output to software, and so on.
The MXT-L feeds info to a guage that you mount in-car. But it says it also can feed into to a data-logging program. How would you record sessions to output? Does the same software come with each??

Help me understand the differences here.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 04:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I use the innovate 3844mtx-l on my hemi with a stage V manifold and 2-fours and works great. My friends have them on high horse sigle four chevys and fords also without any problems. Easiest electronic product I've every installed.




That's the one I'm looking to get. Do you use any type of data logger with it?




Trying to fully understand the difference between the LM-2 and the MXT-L....
The LM-2 feeds info through a handheld device that allows you to control various functions, record sessions for output to software, and so on.
The MXT-L feeds info to a guage that you mount in-car. But it says it also can feed into to a data-logging program. How would you record sessions to output? Does the same software come with each??

Help me understand the differences here.




Your correct on the LM... I dont know the other unit
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 05:21 AM

I have a whole whack of widebands, and generally they read pretty close to one another, except the LM-1, I really didn't find it performed all that well, I found the software and features good, but the quality of the actual instrument to be poor. It's calibration was finicky and drifted quickly, and I had to resolder the connections on the board numerous times.
The FJO was good for the price, but they go bought out and shut down, the motec is top knotch and always reads within .1 of the dynojet WB on my dyno. The NGK works ok, but lacks some options of other WB's.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 05:46 AM



Quote:

I have a whole whack of widebands, and generally they read pretty close to one another, except the LM-1, I really didn't find it performed all that well, I found the software and features good, but the quality of the actual instrument to be poor. It's calibration was finicky and drifted quickly, and I had to resolder the connections on the board numerous times.
The FJO was good for the price, but they go bought out and shut down, the motec is top knotch and always reads within .1 of the dynojet WB on my dyno. The NGK works ok, but lacks some options of other WB's.




I can say that my LM-1 is repeatable.. as for accuracy
I never compared it to another...YET.. I just got
a autometer dash unit one but I havent installed it
Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 04:31 PM

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I use the innovate 3844mtx-l on my hemi with a stage V manifold and 2-fours and works great. My friends have them on high horse sigle four chevys and fords also without any problems. Easiest electronic product I've every installed.




That's the one I'm looking to get. Do you use any type of data logger with it?




Trying to fully understand the difference between the LM-2 and the MXT-L....
The LM-2 feeds info through a handheld device that allows you to control various functions, record sessions for output to software, and so on.
The MXT-L feeds info to a guage that you mount in-car. But it says it also can feed into to a data-logging program. How would you record sessions to output? Does the same software come with each??

Help me understand the differences here.




The LM-2 does the recording, the other does not. Also, the LM-2 comes with a program that the logged data is down-loaded into on your computer. Once there, you can manipulate the data and the different sessions.

As you make changes, you will want to compare before and after. The program that comes with the LM-2 will make data that you gather so much more usable. And reveal trends and quirks that a video of a gage cannot.

There are some rather subtle things going on. And there is some stuff that happens faster than a camera would reveal. And sometimes it just takes a while to realize what is going on. The graphs help all that enormously.

Recording the info for playback later is essential. But having that info on a well laid out chart is also very important.

Pull up some of the recorded sessions from the LM-1 s and LM-2s and you will see how much easier the data that is recorded is to interpret.
Posted By: DemonDust

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 04:51 PM

I've wanted to buy a wideband for quite some time now, but haven't because of threads like this. No body has a definite answer which one is the best to go with. It always seems like for every positive vote there is a negative vote for each system.

I'll just and hope for more info....
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 04:58 PM

Quote:

I've wanted to buy a wideband for quite some time now, but haven't because of threads like this. No body has a definite answer which one is the best to go with. It always seems like for every positive vote there is a negative vote for each system.

I'll just and hope for more info....




Not everyone needs the same thing... some want a
gauge on the dash... some want a down load version..
basically thats the 2 versions .. read out or not..
so what are your needs
Posted By: DemonDust

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 07:15 PM

I want to log every run without going to look at my in car video and try to see what's going on.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 07:24 PM

Quote:

I want to log every run without going to look at my in car video and try to see what's going on.




Then the next question would be.. do you have a data
logger that you can use to record the A/F.. if not
then you have to go with a meter that holds its own
data such as the LM-2 or one like it.. you can buy a
separate unit to do this for the LM-1
Posted By: second 70

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 07:26 PM

No I haven't, It does have data log but you have to use a pc.
Posted By: second 70

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/08/15 07:34 PM

Quote:

No I haven't, It does have data log but you have to use a pc.


Sorry 3844 mtxl
Posted By: DemonDust

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 12:01 AM

The only data logger I have is what I write every pass down in and keep my records.

So I'm open to what would work best.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 12:21 AM

Quote:

The only data logger I have is what I write every pass down in and keep my records.

So I'm open to what would work best.




I dont know of which units run a self data log..
so that part is up to you to search
Posted By: DemonDust

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 12:55 AM

I just want one that works properly, consistently and I can pull a SD card, plug in my laptop, or Bluetooth the information to a computer.

Is that asking to much?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 01:27 AM

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I just want one that works properly, consistently and I can pull a SD card, plug in my laptop, or Bluetooth the information to a computer.

Is that asking to much?




Nope... but you want me to search for you.. not gonna
happen... YOU know what you want.. start lookin
good luck
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 02:37 AM

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I just want one that works properly, consistently and I can pull a SD card, plug in my laptop, or Bluetooth the information to a computer.

Is that asking to much?




Based on what I'm seeing, and I've narrowed my search primarily down to Innovate because it seems to be the best bang for buck, I think you're also looking at the LM-2. From what I see, you can use an SD card, but it also offers a USB cable for direct hookup to your laptop. It downloads to its own software package for you to view and work with the info., and files each session you record. I think this is what most people are looking for in the drag-strip world. The MXT-L is primarily just a guage. It says you can download info from the MXT-L system to a computer, but I think you need additional hardware to make that happen. I see they make a product called a "pocket-logger" that says it works with MXT-L (as well as other guage systems) to convert the info to a format that works with data-logging software on a computer. That item is around $100, which is slightly more than the difference between the LM-2 & the MXT-L.

It certainly is confusing! Pulling a plug and giving it the ol' sniff-test might not be so bad after all.
Posted By: Duner

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 03:07 AM

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It certainly is confusing! Pulling a plug and giving it the ol' sniff-test might not be so bad after all.





And if you are like me.... you won't actually believe what the gauge tells you 100% and you'll be pulling the plugs anyway. LOL


I have a wideband integrated into my Megasquirt MS3X system - which allows me to datalog every single part of the operation during a pass. I was running an AEM gauge connected to my system - but the Bosch sensors didn't survive more than a couple of passes if I put it up on the 2-step launch limiter. I switched to an Innovate system and so far so good. The O2 sensor has lasted a year already, so that's good news for me!
Posted By: fjmg

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 04:13 AM

I came across a fellow in Australia (i believe his website is brisdance) that used a "maximite microprocessor" to read data from various temp thermocouples and pressure switches in his honda transmission and record them to sd card in realtime.
If you google that micro processor you will see that it has the capability of 20 I/O of analog or digital signals (like your o2), uses simple programming, has monitor and keyboard sockets etc.
Posted By: 65 NSS 500

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 04:20 AM

FAST has a nice unit also. I would consider also..
Posted By: upnover

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/09/15 04:47 AM

I have a fast model 170401,its a handheld and I love it, I can use it on multiple cars by simply installing am 02 bung. I don't do any data logging but I use it around the house on TNT runs, it works out good for me. a friend has an innovate non data loggingand it dident like my car for some reason, wouldent work. have another friend with a data logging one and when it works its cool, problem is it works about 30% of the time. just bought a car that has an innovate mounted in the car but haven't got it figured out yet, it ogs the air fuel. the logging type seem very confusing and if you don't use them daily they just seem like too much for my simple brain.
Posted By: RT540

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/16/15 09:00 PM

Just bought a PLX Device R 500 from a Local racer, anyone else tried that unit?
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/17/15 09:24 PM

UPDATE
************************

So I finally got through to Innovate on the phone, and I'm glad I did. The guy walked me through a few different options, and I now feel like I know what I want and why. If you want a system that offers an in-dash guage, and also allows full logging capability (this is me), then here's the ticket:

MXT-L + SSI-4 + PL-1

The MXT-L guage kit has the full wideband controller and in-dash guage. Then you can add the SSI-4, which allows you to integrate other inputs (RPM, Fuel Pressure, MAP, etc), and will hook up and feed directly to your computer (but you would have to have the computer hooked up and recording as you make a pass to log it). Add a PL-1 logger, and now you can record all of the info to an SD card for download to your laptop later.

All three of these items added up, cost approx. the same as an LM-2. The advantage is the guage, and the ability to purchase them as budget allows, and as needed over time. The guy at Innovate was pretty helpful in explaining it to me. He also strongly reccomended against analog guages, explaining that in this arena of information, an analog guage just doesnt offer the precise information that a digital guage offers. In fact, Innovate is in the process of discontinuing all of their G-series analog guages.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/17/15 09:45 PM

Glad you got it sorted out, but have one question. Why do you want a gauge in the dash? Once you get the fuel curve sorted out unless you make changes it should be good.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/18/15 12:49 AM

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Glad you got it sorted out, but have one question. Why do you want a gauge in the dash? Once you get the fuel curve sorted out unless you make changes it should be good.




If the handheld system, and the system I've outlined above are about the same investment..... You're saying you'd rather NOT have a guage?

Like you said, I suppose: "it SHOULD be good". You could say that about any function though, couldn't you? "why do you need an oil pressure guage, once you've seen how much you have, you should be good". "Why do you need a voltage guage? Once you've identified that your system works, you should be good". Why do you have a fuel pressure guage?... Why do you need a any guage? If its good, its good... right? I don't mean to be a smart-azz, but you get my point.

Seriously, I think there are times when it may tip you off that you might want to make a quick jet change in the heat of summer. hows your tune in the crisp air of the fall?... same jetting as in the 90 humid summer months? My car is a street & strip car that spends time in a lot of different driving conditions. Driving it is a hobby, not transportation.

And finally, and most importantly.... I'm a hot rodder and fiddling with stuff is what I do.
Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/18/15 04:55 AM

I hang my LM-1 from my mirror from a wire bracket that I made. I like to monitor my A/F as I drive and have noticed some things with different brands of gas and on different days. Also, with it hanging right there, I can tap the record button real easy, even when I am pulling into the lights at the track.

It doesn't look bad and is easy to unhook and throw in the console. Besides, a lot of people ask about it and want to know how it works.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Educate me on wideband systems - 01/18/15 05:18 AM

Personally I don't want a gauge and was just curious. Oil pressure, water temp and volts are different IMO. I want to monitor them, if something happens to the oil pressure or temp it could ruin a lot of parts. If I need to check my afr from summer to fall it takes about two minutes to hook up my LM-2. Good luck.
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