Moparts
HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps
Posted By: moparmanjames
HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 02:31 PM
Sorry for the old question, it's probably been covered before, but I'm lazy lol.
I'm hoping to make around 800 hp, will my block take it?
Posted By: camdog440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 02:40 PM
I have been under the impression that 650-700 is pushing the limits of a stock block.
Posted By: Jacob Pitt
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 03:25 PM
The aluminum caps will help it a lot. Plus if you use aluminum rods it will help it even more. Whatever you can do to dampen the blow to the main webbing the better.
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 03:29 PM
a girdle will help- alot.
Posted By: 4404dart
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 03:59 PM
That BCR girdle and aluminum main caps looks like a great way to go. I've gone 9.30's @ 147, at 3300lbs, with a stock block and a main girdle. Freshening the engine right now, the block and all the parts are perfect.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 04:27 PM
I have used a stock short filled block with program caps and steel rods with a stock 440 crank, and went 136mph in a 4005 lbs car. You do the math for horsepower. This will be the 4 year on the motor in 09, but it could also be the last?
There was also a little nitrous there to help me along....hehe!
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 04:33 PM
JMO
They might last for a while under or at 700 hp. The main girdle, and other stuff will not keep them from splitting the cylinders. It seems this is 50% of the failures, the other is the main caps breaking. The after market stuff helps in this area, but nothing can be done about the cylinders...Im sorry filling the block doesn't help
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 04:44 PM
Oh! I agree that they will not last forever but there is alot of guys who have made some big reliable power using a stock block. I estimate that I am making over 800 when I spray it. The day will come when the block has had enough.
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 05:06 PM
there's a guy at our track who's been making horsepower with a comma for many years with a stock block- fill and girdle. scary, but he has had zero problems. the mega blocks have not been so lucky. i think if you take pains, use the good parts and the best machine work and assembly, a good stock block can endure a lot. and there's that hot rod build up. what was that, about 1400? yikes.
Posted By: atoetly
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 05:11 PM
Mine lasted 4 seasons running mid 9's in a 3200lb dart with aluminum mains, aluminum rods and block filled.
Posted By: mikemotorhead
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 05:43 PM
"the mega blocks have not been so lucky"
Maximum could you please elaborate???
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 06:29 PM
i've read about mega blocks having cap walk and bore thickness issues. i think it was the early blocks? there have been a couple of spectacular mega block failures in our area, but i think they were both the result of valve train failure. most engine failures i see are because of valve train failures, not block related, whether stock or aftermarket.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 07:15 PM
Thanks for the replies, I guess I might have to tone it down a bit for reliability, I wouldn't want to blow it up after teasing my chevy buddies
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 07:21 PM
I am not a fan of "Girdles" and would never run one..but I have had more than one stock block with alum caps and rods, that made over 1,000hp on the spray. Actually never broken an alum capped block. Definitely not saying you won't break one, but I never have.
Monte
Posted By: ironjay
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 07:33 PM
Just use a 400 block and make the HP that you want and last.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 09:51 PM
If you want it to live, I would say 600-650...
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:03 PM
Quote:
Thanks for the replies, I guess I might have to tone it down a bit for reliability, I wouldn't want to blow it up after teasing my chevy buddies
get blown not blownup. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYjTkyqrmk
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:04 PM
Quote:
I am not a fan of "Girdles" and would never run one..but I have had more than one stock block with alum caps and rods, that made over 1,000hp on the spray. Actually never broken an alum capped block. Definitely not saying you won't break one, but I never have.
Monte
Thanks, I don't have aluminum rods, I guess I might be looking at that now though. I guess I should have asked before I bought my balanced rotating assembly.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:05 PM
Quote:
Just use a 400 block and make the HP that you want and last.
I already bought the kit for a 440.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for the replies, I guess I might have to tone it down a bit for reliability, I wouldn't want to blow it up after teasing my chevy buddies
get blown not blownup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYjTkyqrmk
See, this I don't understand, I thought the stresses would be worse with a blower. I have been thinking about a procharger set up.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:17 PM
mine has been run from 2002.after 3yrs i checked the bearings and caps[stock iron w/studs]there was signs of walk.the cheepest,least invasive improvement was a girdle from gearsandrears[chenoweth] so i have been using that and will check the bearings next yr 2010.i cant realy explain why,whynots.i just hope it last.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:23 PM
Quote:
mine has been run from 2002.after 3yrs i checked the bearings and caps[stock iron w/studs]there was signs of walk.the cheepest,least invasive improvement was a girdle from gearsandrears[chenoweth] so i have been using that and will check the bearings next yr 2010.i cant realy explain why,whynots.i just hope it last.
Can you give me a rundown of your build with cam specs included?
I watched your video it looked like about 900hp @ around 6200. That would be perfect.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:26 PM
Quote:
Quote:
mine has been run from 2002.after 3yrs i checked the bearings and caps[stock iron w/studs]there was signs of walk.the cheepest,least invasive improvement was a girdle from gearsandrears[chenoweth] so i have been using that and will check the bearings next yr 2010.i cant realy explain why,whynots.i just hope it last.
Can you give me a rundown of your build with cam specs included?
I watched your video it looked like about 900hp @ around 6200. That would be perfect.
sure! back in a minute.
stock block 440 1968 o-ringed.030,3.75 stroke 440source platinum series crank,eagle rods 6.76 200 bolts,wiseco pistons 8.8cr K373A3 speed pro rings hell fire,chenoweth 3/8 girdle,milodon pump 1 line swinging pickup,iron 346 heads reciever grooved 2.14/1.81 valves vlowing 280/180 at .600 HS 1.5 rockers comp pushrods 3/8,blowershop 8-71 9% OD 12 lbs of boost on 110 sunoco stock holley carbs jetted 88/94 no PV's,NGK #8 plugs.
FIRECORE WIRES!
oh THE CAM. 
COMP ROLLER .646/631 260/269 AT .050 112 lsa.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 10:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
mine has been run from 2002.after 3yrs i checked the bearings and caps[stock iron w/studs]there was signs of walk.the cheepest,least invasive improvement was a girdle from gearsandrears[chenoweth] so i have been using that and will check the bearings next yr 2010.i cant realy explain why,whynots.i just hope it last.
Can you give me a rundown of your build with cam specs included?
I watched your video it looked like about 900hp @ around 6200. That would be perfect.
sure! back in a minute.
stock block 440 1968 o-ringed.030,3.75 stroke 440source platinum series crank,eagle rods 6.76 200 bolts,wiseco pistons 8.8cr K373A3 speed pro rings hell fire,chenoweth 3/8 girdle,milodon pump 1 line swinging pickup,iron 346 heads reciever grooved 2.14/1.81 valves vlowing 280/180 at .600 HS 1.5 rockers comp pushrods 3/8,blowershop 8-71 9% OD 12 lbs of boost on 110 sunoco stock holley carbs jetted 88/94 no PV's,NGK #8 plugs.
FIRECORE WIRES!
oh THE CAM.
COMP ROLLER .646/631 260/269 AT .050 112 lsa.
I'm guessing the carbs are dominators from the jet sizes you listed. Was I close on the HP and RPM? Can you list your dyno run? Thanks.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:05 PM
stock holley 850 with choke horns still.
i have a pic of my dyno sheet i will get now.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:11 PM
Thanks!
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:17 PM
i think i will start shifting at 6K instead if 6800.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:21 PM
Quote:
i think i will start shifting at 6K instead if 6800.
Holy Cow man, how fast are you runnin?
Posted By: mcat4321
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:37 PM
Quote:
I am not a fan of "Girdles" and would never run one..
Monte
okay what is it you dont like about the girddle idea?
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:39 PM
i need to work on the ss spring and CE shock setup and run some more fuel psi but i ran 1.42 60',10.35/131.6 mph.4,000 lb car&driver.it seemed to sping some off the line or some sort of stumble in the video in my sig.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/07/09 11:46 PM
Quote:
i need to work on the ss spring and CE shock setup and run some more fuel psi but i ran 1.42 60',10.35/131.6 mph.4,000 lb car&driver.it seemed to sping some off the line or some sort of stumble in the video in my sig.
I've got a drag sim program and I wanted to put your car in and see what it should be running, can you give me the info on the converter stall and gearing, tire size? Thanks
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 12:12 AM
Quote:
i need to work on the ss spring and CE shock setup and run some more fuel psi but i ran 1.42 60',10.35/131.6 mph.4,000 lb car&driver.it seemed to sping some off the line or some sort of stumble in the video in my sig.
Just from the Video it looks like a torque converter issue, the car seems to stay at 5000 for a little while before the revs climb, I'm not sure but this would indicate that you might not have enough gear or the engine is down on power.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 12:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
i need to work on the ss spring and CE shock setup and run some more fuel psi but i ran 1.42 60',10.35/131.6 mph.4,000 lb car&driver.it seemed to sping some off the line or some sort of stumble in the video in my sig.
I've got a drag sim program and I wanted to put your car in and see what it should be running, can you give me the info on the converter stall and gearing, tire size? Thanks
cool,sure!
convertor stalls at 5,000 off the line,TF 727 stock gearing,4.10 gears,28" tire 15psi.the car traps a 6500 rpm/131+mph.3% slip or close.
the dyno #s are .08 correction% so you can subtract it from the HP/TQ.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 12:24 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i need to work on the ss spring and CE shock setup and run some more fuel psi but i ran 1.42 60',10.35/131.6 mph.4,000 lb car&driver.it seemed to sping some off the line or some sort of stumble in the video in my sig.
I've got a drag sim program and I wanted to put your car in and see what it should be running, can you give me the info on the converter stall and gearing, tire size? Thanks
cool,sure!
convertor stalls at 5,000 off the line,TF 727 stock gearing,4.10 gears,28" tire 15psi.the car traps a 6500 rpm/131+mph.3% slip or close.
Ok I ran it with the peak power figures from the dyno sheet, I set the weather conditions for an 80f day at 500feet elevation and barometer at 29.92.
It says you should run a 9.53 @ 130 mph with 6% slippage. So the mph is right there but the et is off a bit.
Thanks for the info, that is a super cool ride.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:06 AM
9.53 @ 130mph? Damn, then I should be in the mid-low 9`s since I`ve been 132.90 in the 1/4 mile. Something don`t seem right....could you tell me where I can get that info/program? THANKXXXX...
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:23 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I am not a fan of "Girdles" and would never run one..
Monte
okay what is it you dont like about the girddle idea?
Just personal preference, but in my opinion, the girdle does not help, but actually hurts the situation. The main web in the block is the weak link, not the cap. Cap walk (cap bounce really) generally breaks the cap, beats the main web out of the block and then breaks the crank. You install a better cap, but it still bounces and breaks the block. The motor is always trying to throw the crank out the bottom. Just a natural thing that you can't stop. So a girdle ties it all together, but you still have the same forces in action, only now, they are all concentrated to the main web, which is the weak link to start with. Alum caps and rods, will absorb some of the shock and not transfer the brunt of it to the main webs. Some, many actually, will not agree, but this is the way I see it. I have heard the other side and I don't buy it. All I can go on is my own experiences. And that is, that I have built some pretty high HP, stock block motors, that had a ton of passes put on them. Never had one of those motors with alum caps and rods, break a block. These girdles for Mopars have been around for years, it is nothing new. I saw the first one in the 70s. My dad bought one for his Super Stock car in about 1974 and after inspection, it did not go on. The first one I actually saw on a motor, was one of Dvorak's stockers. They were kind of popular, then faded out. Koffel, also made them years ago. They seem to have a new following these days, but as I said, nothing new.
Monte
Oh yeah. The first set of alum caps I saw, was also in the 70s. My dad ran SS, but was also an engineer at a major industrial plant, plus he built all his own motors. He drew up a set and had the machine shop at the plant, whittle them out. My dad was pretty innovative. He petitioned NHRA to allow the manual carbs for Six Pack cars, and got it passed. He had the first roller bearing pinion support for a 9" Ford, that the Phlanx corporation ever made. He has the Weiand Six Pack Tunnel Ram, before Rossi had it.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:35 AM
Quote:
JMO
They might last for a while under or at 700 hp. The main girdle, and other stuff will not keep them from splitting the cylinders.
Good point. If somebody is buiding 600+ hp in a stock block, they should sonic check the cylinder wall thickness of several before choosing one. Many have scary thin spots, some are just "poor" production standards, and others are actually reasonably good. But you might need to check 10 to find a good one.
I did that, and went to aluminum main caps 3 years ago. So far so good.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:43 AM
Quote:
9.53 @ 130mph? Damn, then I should be in the mid-low 9`s since I`ve been 132.90 in the 1/4 mile. Something don`t seem right....could you tell me where I can get that info/program? THANKXXXX...
The mph will vary depending on the converter/engine combo, the more efficient the converter, the higher the mph, alot of people also forget to subtract at least an inch from the tire diameter as well.
The program I use is Drag race analyzer by performance trends. I use it in combimation with Engine Analyzer Pro, also from them.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:49 AM
By the way I've seen alot of mid 9 second cars running 138 - 143 mph range as well, it's all in the combo.
Posted By: Efidart
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:52 AM
Did 985RWHP on a short filled, aluminum capped and girdled destroked 440 turbo'd 388 cube. Mains looked like new after a year of beating on it.
Then I wised up bought a KB block and made more power on less boost with some more cubes.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 01:55 AM
Quote:
Did 985RWHP on a short filled, aluminum capped and girdled destroked 440 turbo'd 388 cube. Mains looked like new after a year of beating on it.
Then I wised up bought a KB block and made more power on less boost with some more cubes.
Thanks for the info
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 02:05 AM
My block supposedly has been sonic checked and was in a naturally aspirated 505 alky digger.
It's .030 over so I was going to take it .060 and hope for the best, but I'd really like to come across a deal on an aftermarket block.
Thanks for the info.
Posted By: sickhemi
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 02:33 AM
didn't all the cylinder splitting happen recently with the long stroke cranks and short skirt pistons loading the cylinder walls or do they also split with stock stroke cranks?
Posted By: 67dodgeracer
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 05:51 AM
Following up on 440Jims thoughts,what is the generally accepted minimum cylinder wall thickness,using a half fill?
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 07:13 AM
Quote:
didn't all the cylinder splitting happen recently with the long stroke cranks and short skirt pistons loading the cylinder walls or do they also split with stock stroke cranks?
I have seen several 400 blocks with 3.75 strokers split the cylinders with 6.76 long rods. My 1976 400 block with 6.8 long rods and a 4.300 stroker hasn't split one yet, thinness spot sonic testing in any of the cylinders was .163, thickess was .230 after boring I have seen thinner and thicker stock blocks 
As already said you have to test a bunch of them to find a really good one, that is the reason I bought one of the new World wedge blocks at 4.500 bore 
I have sonic tested it on the thrust sides,it is siamese bore, and the thinness I found was .300 That rascal is heavy though 
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: HP limit for 440 Block, filled & alum caps - 01/08/09 11:24 AM
Quote:
My block supposedly has been sonic checked and was in a naturally aspirated 505 alky digger.
It's .030 over so I was going to take it .060 and hope for the best, but I'd really like to come across a deal on an aftermarket block.
Thanks for the info.
do you have to take it to .060 or will it cleanup at .040?[keeping cylinder wall as thick as can be.]as $$ permits i would like to find a better block also a KP440 or KB aluminum.