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Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip

Posted By: 1badx

Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:05 PM

I thought I would start a new thread on the latest adventure here at OST Dyno.
I indicated in a few of the current Gen III Hemi threads that I would try to provide some details on a build thread for a junkyard 5.7 and various performance modifications.

I don't actually intend to take the junkyard engine down the track but I will be testing various mods on our chassis dyno for reference.

The primary reason for this endeavor is to test various products we will be selling online for modifying these engines. These product will include: intake manifold flanges, exhaust manifold flanges, drag pack to 90mm TB adapters,
and reselling items like the EFI Source Gen III Hemi gold box, TTI headers, swap kits, front motor plates with waterpump adapters, mid plates etc.

So here we go!

The engine fresh from the boneyard. I have been assured it is a runner. I've purchased quite a few engines from this yard and have yet to have one not run well:




And it says "good" on the valve cover so all should be well!




Next is the test platform. Our recently purchased 23T Altered. This formerly housed a BBC but we're going to change that....






Here's the trans. A powerglide w/straight cuts and a pro brake. This is the biggest hold up in the project right now. I ordered a JW Ultra Bell for it 3 weeks ago and it was supposed to be delivered 2 weeks ago. Now I am told it won't ship until the 2nd week in January
If anyone has a JW Ultra Bell for a glide to a small mopar or Gen III Hemi PLEASE let me know.



First on the agenda was to see if the engine even turned over on the stand. So I pulled all the coil packs and one plug from each cylinder(they looked crappy like most junkyard engines)and spun the engine with a breaker bar. I probably could have turned the pulley with my hands it spun so freely.

I also took my bore scope and checked each cylinder. They also looked typical for a junkyard engine and no broken pistons! A little purple power to wipe down the valve covers and she doesn't look so bad.



Ok, so I wanted to find out if my JW Ultra Bell was really going to be shipped on Jan 16th so I called JW myself. Sure enough the EARLIEST it will ship is Jan 16th

This is really going to cramp my plans to have this car ready for the track in April.

So in the mean time......

I grabbed a couple of timing covers off the scrap trailer so you can see the difference between a 5.7 truck cover and a car cover. THe car cover is much cleaner. I'm going to need to take a sawzall to the truck cover on my "test" engine just because it's so stinking ugly.



Truck cover "protrusion"



Car cover - not as bad




On to another topic. My EFI Source Hemi "gold box" showed up today! So far I am very impressed with the MS3 based product. Nice packaging, good instructions and very easy to install.





It even came with a free T-shirt




Do not be intimidated by all the wires. I have made my own harnesses before and this is one very nicely made, well fitted and clearly labeled. Again, very nice.








I love lots of grounds!




Having worked on and modified Megasquirt units in the past I couldn't resist opening this one up and seeing how EFI Source did the coil drivers. I built an MS3x for a Hemi several years ago and used external coil driver which were cumbersome and ugly. EFI Source did and excellent job of putting these on the board, inside the case and with a good heat sink (those babies get hot).






Very nice soldering too!




One important test I had to try after putting the unit back together. Will all the connectors fit?
I slid the coil back back on the valve covers, grabbed the harness and went to town.

It took me exactly 2 minutes and 30 seconds to completely wire the engine with the EFI Source harness. I wasn't trying to do this quickly. I just happened to look at my phone before I started (thinking it was probably going to take 20-30 minutes). Every single connector plugged right in, was the perfect length/position and was labeled appropriately. Two minutes and 30 seconds! Amazing!





My LS ported throttle body had the proper TPS and IAC connectors as well.



The only problem was that this harness was not designed to work with the MAP sensor on a truck intake manifold. But who in their right mind would run a truck manifold on one of these anyway! I'll be swapping out to a car 5.7 intake and eventually a 6.1 intake. The MAP sensor wire will then work without issue.



Speaking of Gen III Hemi swaps - look what showed up at the shop today. A Bee with a supercharged 6.1







Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:15 PM

And what year is this and what did it come out of..
I will be following this
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:16 PM

This is gonna be cool! Someone give this guy a bellhousing so he can start testing.
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:39 PM

Quote:

And what year is this




I believe it's 2014 at least for a few more days.....

JK - I have no idea what year the engine is. From the front cover I can tell it's out of a truck, from the coil packs it's 2005 or newer. I also know it's not a VVT engine so that's about as much as I can narrow it down
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:44 PM

It's got an egr.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And what year is this




I believe it's 2014 at least for a few more days.....

JK - I have no idea what year the engine is. From the front cover I can tell it's out of a truck, from the coil packs it's 2005 or newer. I also know it's not a VVT engine so that's about as much as I can narrow it down




At least its a start so we know what to look for
while we follow this
Posted By: onig

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/17/14 11:50 PM

Will definitely be watching this thread.
I have a 5.7 out of a truck as well, hopefully start on it in the new year.
Posted By: HEMIDARTS

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 12:51 AM

I am also going to be tuned into this thread!
Please be as detailed as time allows you.
Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 01:23 AM

Judging by the oil filter adapter I'd guess a Jeep, pretty sure they have angled adapters
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 01:29 AM

Quote:

At least its a start so we know what to look for while we follow this





I was just messing with you and as far as what to look for to duplicate what I plan on doing:
- Any 6.1 Hemi
- Any non-VVT 5.7 Hemi (the earlier models will just have different coil packs and valve covers that can easily be switched out if desired)

I'm thinking of testing what I can to see what type of gains are made on the dyno - which is only a tool - nothing is as definitive as the track.

Things like:
- complexity level of installing the EFIsource EMS
- stock 5.7 exhaust manifolds vs. stock 6.1's
- 5.7 car intake vs. 6.1 intake
- Cam change (whatever I have available)
- Head change (I have some stock 6.1's)

Not sure what else will be worth testing before I put my built 5.7 based engine in and go racing
Posted By: DFlanagan

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 01:35 AM

This should be a good thread. I've been a member over at LXForums for almost 10 years and Mike and OST are pretty darn good with the Gen III HEMI.

Can't wait to see what you guys come up with.
Posted By: LA360

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 02:27 AM

I'm subscribing!
Posted By: mshred

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 05:44 AM

Cool! In for updates
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 11:28 AM

It would be great to include some SRT8 exhaust manifolds in the exhaust test. I bought a set from a jeep to go in my 65 dart project, and I bet there are other applications where they will work without too much trouble.
I am also VERY interested in the EFI setup.
Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 02:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And what year is this




I believe it's 2014 at least for a few more days.....

JK - I have no idea what year the engine is. From the front cover I can tell it's out of a truck, from the coil packs it's 2005 or newer. I also know it's not a VVT engine so that's about as much as I can narrow it down




Look at the bottom of the block near the oil pan rail. Should be a bunch of letters and numbers stamped into it. Let me know what you come up with.
Matt
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 05:09 PM

Quote:

It would be great to include some SRT8 exhaust manifolds in the exhaust test. I bought a set from a jeep to go in my 65 dart project, and I bet there are other applications where they will work without too much trouble.
I am also VERY interested in the EFI setup.




I bought the Holley HP EFI multi-point for my 416
and am planning to use it on the gen 3 when I get
one ready... it can handle the fuel and timing with
no issues... I just finished up the install yesterday
on the 416.. now I have to hook up the laptop to
load the info and answer the question which is part
of the down load
Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 05:21 PM

I like the altered. This should be a cool thread
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/18/14 05:27 PM

Quote:

I like the altered. This should be a cool thread




I built my brother a 23T altered for his chevy engine...
they are lite


Attached picture 8366160-sean2.jpg
Posted By: 340RICK

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/19/14 01:03 AM

this should be good
Posted By: rattler

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/19/14 02:44 AM

I'll be following along too. I would like to bolt one of these in my 64 Savoy wagon.
Posted By: 69dart

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/19/14 03:39 AM

Perfect... Keep us posted...
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 04:32 AM

For ease of reading I'm just going to keep updating the original post. That way all the data and pictures will be at the "top"

I'm also looking for a 6.1 block. If anyone happens to know where one is for sale please email me.
Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 05:43 AM

Great post! I'm looking forward to see how this turns out. If you can afford an aftermarket case, the Reid is much nicer than the JW junk. I'm making the change as soon as I can afford it.
Posted By: 451Cuda

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 06:28 AM

Quote:



Here's the trans. A powerglide w/straight cuts and a pro brake. This is the biggest hold up in the project right now. I ordered a JW Ultra Bell for it 3 weeks ago and it was supposed to be delivered 2 weeks ago. Now I am told it won't ship until the 2nd week in January
If anyone has a JW Ultra Bell for a glide to a small mopar or Gen III Hemi PLEASE let me know.




I went through the same deal with JW for a BB to pg bellhousing. I come to find out the old design had major issues and they were redesigning it. After some calling I decided on a much better solution with a mid-plate adapter from Coan.

http://www.coanracing.com/Catalog.asp?ProductDetail=1923
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 07:43 AM

Quote:

The only problem was that this harness was not designed to work with the MAP sensor on a truck intake manifold. But who in their right mind would run a truck manifold on one of these anyway! I'll be swapping out to a car 5.7 intake and eventually a 6.1 intake. The MAP sensor wire will then work without issue.




I thought I had read somewhere that the truck intake was actually the best stock one for power.

If the engine doesn't have MDS it will be pre 06 if it's a truck engine.

Kevin
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 06:29 PM

The 70 bee.. did they change over to the complete front end from a strut car? That would be interesting to see. I'm selling all my engines to build a gen 3 myself and will be watching!
You're not that far from me either.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 06:58 PM

I didn't get a T-shirt with mine
Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 07:24 PM

Quote:

I didn't get a T-shirt with mine




you're going to want to turn that thing around, the usb port is on the other side.
i have perfected the efisource install.lol.
also if you're going to use the megasquirt to control your cooling fan,( highly recommended) you will want to run the fan wire through the harness before you get to far into your install. the efisource directions on the pin location are all the directions you will need.
i have an awesome tune up for anyone running eagle heads on an early engine with a decent camshaft too.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 08:05 PM

I will probably rotate it 90 degrees counterclockwise.
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 08:21 PM

Quote:


I thought I had read somewhere that the truck intake was actually the best stock one for power.

If the engine doesn't have MDS it will be pre 06 if it's a truck engine.

Kevin




The 6.1 intake is by far the best stock intake for power.

If it is MDS I will be switching out those lifters when I swap the cam.
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/21/14 08:23 PM

Quote:

The 70 bee.. did they change over to the complete front end from a strut car? That would be interesting to see. I'm selling all my engines to build a gen 3 myself and will be watching!
You're not that far from me either.




It is a complete swap - front and rear. If you need any detailed pics let me know and I'll snap some for you - as long as I can get them with the car on the dyno
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/24/14 07:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:


I thought I had read somewhere that the truck intake was actually the best stock one for power.

If the engine doesn't have MDS it will be pre 06 if it's a truck engine.

Kevin




The 6.1 intake is by far the best stock intake for power.

If it is MDS I will be switching out those lifters when I swap the cam.





It'll be interesting in seeing your dyno results between the 2 intakes. I dyno'd a 418 stroker using an 05 the truck intake and SRT8 6.1 intake. Even with the port mismatch both those intakes preformed almost identical to the point when I overlayed the 2 graphs I couldn't tell which was which.
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/24/14 08:09 PM

Quote:


It'll be interesting in seeing your dyno results between the 2 intakes. I dyno'd a 418 stroker using an 05 the truck intake and SRT8 6.1 intake. Even with the port mismatch both those intakes preformed almost identical to the point when I overlayed the 2 graphs I couldn't tell which was which.




That's interesting. Was there an aftermarket cam in the engine you tested? If so, what lift and duration?

What heads were on the engine? Since you mentioned port mismatch I am assuming old style 5.7 heads?
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/24/14 09:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:


It'll be interesting in seeing your dyno results between the 2 intakes. I dyno'd a 418 stroker using an 05 the truck intake and SRT8 6.1 intake. Even with the port mismatch both those intakes preformed almost identical to the point when I overlayed the 2 graphs I couldn't tell which was which.




That's interesting. Was there an aftermarket cam in the engine you tested? If so, what lift and duration?

What heads were on the engine? Since you mentioned port mismatch I am assuming old style 5.7 heads?




Yes, 5.7 heads. The cam was .578/.588 231/236 @ .050" 114+4
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/28/14 07:35 PM

Quote:


Yes, 5.7 heads. The cam was .578/.588 231/236 @ .050" 114+4




I'm going to blame the mismatched ports for the 6.1 intake as the reason you had the results you did.
The stock "old style" 5.7 heads flow a respectable amount of air and at a high velocity in comparison to what we are used to with the B/RB, Zeeker or Indy heads. However, with the availability and pricing of 6.1 heads plus the additional flow and direct match for the 6.1 and Drag Pack intake the old 5.7 heads are only worth their weight in aluminum. And with the reasonable cost of the Apache (6.4) heads the 6.1 heads are even becoming less valuable. And now with the availability of the Thitek heads (which I sell) for a few extra dollars you can have the best head currently available.

I don't know if my cable driven throttle body adapter will work with the truck intake. If it does I will test both the truck and car 5.7 intakes. I sold the adapter plates I had sitting here for years so I won't be putting the 6.1 intake on the 5.7 heads. I do have some 6.1 heads that I plan on swapping onto the 5.7. At that point I'll test the 6.1 intake (and maybe a Drag Pack if I can find a loaner or buy one cheap

Still waiting on my JW bell housing
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/28/14 10:02 PM

For dyno purposes I gutted a throttle body so the blade was free to move then fabbed up a bracket to the blade gear for a throttle cable. Didn't look pretty, but was functional.
Posted By: onig

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/30/14 07:09 PM

What vehicle or engine did that LS throttle body come off of?
Does it bolt right in or is an adapter needed?
Will that LS throttle body bolt on to a 6.1 manifold?
Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/30/14 07:18 PM

Quote:

What vehicle or engine did that LS throttle body come off of?
Does it bolt right in or is an adapter needed?
Will that LS throttle body bolt on to a 6.1 manifold?




I know that fast has a hemi to lsx Tb adapter plate. You can use any FAST style or Nick Williams cable drive throttle body.


I've got a BBK hemi Specific 80mm 1791 on my 6.1 intake.
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/30/14 07:31 PM

Quote:

What vehicle or engine did that LS throttle body come off of?
Does it bolt right in or is an adapter needed?
Will that LS throttle body bolt on to a 6.1 manifold?




The TB is off of an LS1 vehicle. It will not bolt directly to any Gen 3 Hemi manifold. It does require an adapter plate. I have several "prototype" adapter plates that I have tested and will be using one of those. There is also a company making direct bolt on cable driven throttle bodies that I will be selling once I test and verify functionality.
Posted By: onig

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/30/14 07:57 PM

Thanks, good to know.
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/31/14 06:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What vehicle or engine did that LS throttle body come off of?
Does it bolt right in or is an adapter needed?
Will that LS throttle body bolt on to a 6.1 manifold?




The TB is off of an LS1 vehicle. It will not bolt directly to any Gen 3 Hemi manifold. It does require an adapter plate. I have several "prototype" adapter plates that I have tested and will be using one of those. There is also a company making direct bolt on cable driven throttle bodies that I will be selling once I test and verify functionality.




Happen to have an adapter laying around that could work just the opposite? Meaning Gen 3 throttle body to an LS1 intake. I have another little project going on.

BTW, Ray said it was a pleasure talking to you about dyno's the other day.
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/31/14 05:24 PM

Quote:

Happen to have an adapter laying around that could work just the opposite? Meaning Gen 3 throttle body to an LS1 intake. I have another little project going on.




An DBW Gen III Hemi TB on an LS1?

How the heck are you going to control that? Holley EMS?
Posted By: Bzzzz

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 12/31/14 08:00 PM

subscribed !
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 01/01/15 05:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Happen to have an adapter laying around that could work just the opposite? Meaning Gen 3 throttle body to an LS1 intake. I have another little project going on.




An DBW Gen III Hemi TB on an LS1?

How the heck are you going to control that? Holley EMS?






Here's my plan:
Gen III Hemi engine
4150 XV/Modman intake manifold
90* Edlebrock TB (fits LS1/LS2 throttle bodies)
Adapter of some sorts???
Gen III DBW TB.

Tuning? Hopefully HPTuner's with you at the helm.
Posted By: RTSE4ME

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 01/03/15 03:19 AM

Since I cannot use the stock intake, I could use a modman or XV intake with this Edelbrock elbow with a LS1 TB?

Attached picture 8383186-elbow.jpg
Posted By: onig

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 01/20/15 03:01 AM

Any updates Mike?
Posted By: 1badx

Re: Gen III Hemi - From Junkyard to Dragstrip - 01/26/15 05:26 PM

Quote:

Any updates Mike?




At this point I'm conversing with Reid since the JW bell shipping date keeps getting pushed back. Until I can get the engine and trans connected and in the car this project is at a standstill.

On another note we just signed a lease on a new shop location and we are "nose to the grindstone" trying to spin up this new location (permits, insurance, insulation, wiring, walls etc). So it's actually a convenient time for a "pause". We also purchased a second Mustang dyno and this one is AWD so I'll be able to get some additional data on the Jeep
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