Moparts
have ? about best combo
Posted By: rtstreet
have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 01:54 AM
ok guys need to know what your opinion is, we are building a new car for my son and i cant decide which way to go (small or big block)
car = 73 cuda, 25.5 cage, S-60 cal tracs and split mono, bob's frt end, mini tubed, 15x12 with 29.5 x 10.5 S, 727 or glide, all max effort stuff.
Power adder = F-1R procharger (the biggest allowed)
1st combo = up to 365 cid small block, indy 360's big bore small stroke, only 3125 lbs.
2nd combo = up to 400 cid same but 3225 lbs.
3rd combo = up to 477 cid big block, cnc 440-1 (345 cc runner) 3225 lbs.
4th combo = up to 524 cid same but 3275 lbs.
what i am wondering is will the increase in boost and the lighter weight of the 365 cid be the best choice, maybe a super small big block???, I dont have alot of experience with blowers or small blocks at this level, please ask me anything and help us sort this out.
thanks moparts guru's
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 02:00 AM
So no matter what its going to have an F1 procharger hanging off the front of it, you just need help figuring out how big of a motor you want to run?
I'm thinking a big block with -1's with some forced induction would be well worth the 100-150# weight penalty over the 365.
Posted By: rtstreet
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 02:02 AM
yes for sure f-1r already have and it is the biggest we can run
Posted By: bdaz smblk
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 02:10 AM
I would go with 365 on leafs and rely on lots of rpm's.Won't have lots of torque to blow tires off early with a glide.That thing would hall the mail.Good luck with it and keep us posted.Hope Cam kicks butt with it.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 03:03 AM
Andy, this is a question we would be asking you
do they make a good sb block like they do for big blocks?
me and Quicktree wanted say hello to you but you had a crowd around you at the PRI show.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 03:17 AM
Quote:
do they make a good sb block like they do for big blocks?
Two letters....
Posted By: dthemi
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 03:26 AM
I'm not a guru, but since all a blower does is make cubic inches, and you only have one choice, it'll only blow so many inches. I'd take the 524 with less boost for a total of more inches all together. If you can put that extra weight where you want it, I think you'd be faster with the inches and weight than any of the other choices.
Posted By: Dart1031
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 03:27 AM
Quote:
Quote:
do they make a good sb block like they do for big blocks?
Two letters....
That's one letter 
I would think with a 'glide the BB isn't gonna blow the tires off.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:09 AM
can you get an aluminum R3? how many head bolts on them? i feel dumb
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:27 AM
Andy, I'd go with what DT said.. He's got a pretty good grip on combo's.. New drawing board , Andy ??
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:28 AM
I think I would go 400ci small block. With the 25.5
chassis I'm sure its going to be light enough that
you can put weight anywhere you need it
R3 block, you can get a large bore in it, and some
good heads W-8 or W-9
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:31 AM
What would it need to run to be competitive. I ask because I am sure you want to be at the least competitive, also might give some of the guys here insight as to what kind of power you are talking about.
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:42 AM
Just guessing here but looking at the rules looks like Xtreme Street is what they want to run with it.
Records for Xtreme Street are
177.32 mph
7.851 ET
Posted By: rtstreet
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:16 AM
524 most cid DT
have built lots of small blocks just none with blower
no w-8 only 360-1 or2, w-5, b-1ba mc
record my friend cameron 7.80's
and the fastest combo out of the ones you think Al
would like to run 7.90's but want to go as fast as we can with what the rules allow, my challenger has been 8.20 @ 3450 477 cid and nos
rules page
http://www.nmcadigital.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10735
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:39 AM
A 477"ish BB with an aluminum block and a set of max effort B1's might be fun. Dont know a lot about the SB heads but seems to me the allowable pieces may not be the optimum choice to make the needed power. I see a weight break for Mopar up to 477 cubes would be a 3375, that is a bit of weight though.
Posted By: rtstreet
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:49 AM
that is the way i would have went if i hadn't bought so much for the 524 b-1
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:50 AM
I read it as being
3400# base weight for a 477cid supercharged big block. B1's are your best bet for a head.
-50# for being pre 1974
-75# for Mopar
-50# for stock suspension
Puts you at 3225# Unless i am reading something wrong.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:56 AM
I really think given how good a head you can put on a big block, bore size, and durability at that power level it would be the best option to go big. An aluminum big block would be heavier than an aluminum small block, so there's some of the weight anyway. There's no doubt in my mind the big block with the same blower would way out power the small block. If it were a run whatever blower, or turbo you want then I for sure be looking in the smaller inch combos since it's so hard to harness a big inch unlimited forced induction package. Plus I think it's easier to tune and control a motor on lower boost where you don't need to think about boost level, you can just spin the blower as hard as it'll go tune everything else with boost being a constant. The weight for those et's and speed would be a fair trade for that kind of power difference. (just my opinion)
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 06:27 AM
Quote:
I really think given how good a head you can put on a big block, bore size, and durability at that power level it would be the best option to go big. An aluminum big block would be heavier than an aluminum small block, so there's some of the weight anyway. There's no doubt in my mind the big block with the same blower would way out power the small block. If it were a run whatever blower, or turbo you want then I for sure be looking in the smaller inch combos since it's so hard to harness a big inch unlimited forced induction package. Plus I think it's easier to tune and control a motor on lower boost where you don't need to think about boost level, you can just spin the blower as hard as it'll go tune everything else with boost being a constant. The weight for those et's and speed would be a fair trade for that kind of power difference. (just my opinion)
~50 extra cubes(477-524) at only a 50# weight penalty is a pretty good deal.
Posted By: rtstreet
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 02:49 PM
thanks guys keep um coming, 50 for 50, maybe new race team lol.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:17 PM
I would say a small block may be the way to go looking at the mustangs for instance most of those run small blocks with chargers and are in the sevens or low eights depending on the class.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 04:55 PM
The secret is in the Heads...Not sure the legal heads for a SB Mopar will get the job done personally. But I also thin Ryan or one of the SB head guys on here can better answer that.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:10 PM
will you run an A/W cooler?
big block and max flow cylinder head.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 05:47 PM
Quote:
The secret is in the Heads...Not sure the legal heads for a SB Mopar will get the job done personally. But I also thin Ryan or one of the SB head guys on here can better answer that.
245RP CNC INDY -1 with a 2.15"/1.625" "can" flow over 360/260 & have 2.90" of intake port cross section so..... it's in between a Ported INDY SR + a Ported INDY 440-1 flow wise/size wise...that's about maxed out INDY SB head IMO.
If W9 is legal I'd just do a 9...
The F1R is the real limiting factor to whole deal. I'm not a "racer" just an engine clown, but my thoughts would be how much TQ would the big motor make with boost (tremendous amt)& how do you hook that on cal tracs with a 10.5. Would definitely have to be a glide at that point... Especially when talking a Cent blower that comes on harder than a turbo down low..... I kind of agree with Kenny do high RPM SB although I'd do the up to 400" deal....just for sheer fact of trying to get it to hook. Lightened race block with alum heads will be pretty light motor & still allow to move weight around to rear of car to make weight.
I don't think power with any of the combo's will be the problem... If the F1R can put out 15 PSI (double atmosphere), (it lists at 38 PSI but that is all dependant on engine size it is feeding) you should be able to make 1200 out of a INDY 365 or max the F1R out at 1300-1400 at 390-400 inches.
I'd just go with whatever you're more comfortable with.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 06:25 PM
with the 525" making 1300HP it would take 16/18 psi i would think not having to stuff the extra psi into a smaller 368" that may need 25lbs to makeup for less cu.in.with a int gearing of 5.4/1 the pulleys would need 1.79/1 for 7,000 rpm at max rpm,flow and the F-1R at 68,000 rpm.
i just wanted to bring some info to the post to relate to.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 06:47 PM
Quote:
with the 525" making 1300HP it would take 16/18 psi i would think not having to stuff the extra psi into a smaller 368" that may need 25lbs to makeup for less cu.in.with a int gearing of 5.4/1 the pulleys would need 1.79/1 for 7,000 rpm at max rpm,flow and the F-1R at 68,000 rpm.
i just wanted to bring some info to the post to relate to.
Customer of mine 3.33" Crank, 4.185 bore....367" motor.... 16 PSI boost 5.30 @ 131 @ 3450 lbs. I think you need to rethink you're 25 PSI on the SB idea to make power.
"Your HP computed from your vehicle ET is 1,172.86 flywheel HP
Your HP computed from your vehicle MPH is 1,205.30 flywheel HP"
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 06:58 PM
thanks!
the info is not exact that i posted.
just my thaughts.i know there is a lot more invalved in predidcting the HP he wants.
not to steel the post but my engine dyno #.s were
985HP/930TQ at 6300 with .08 correction %.it is what it is.i just keep trying to make it better/tunning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYjTkyqrmkthanks for all your input on posts!
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 07:07 PM
Was'nt picking on you, just stating that it does'nt take alot of boost to make big power if motor is decent piece head/cam wise. That engine only makes around 600-620 NA I bet.... but then you put 16 PSI of intercooled boost on it &.... you double the power. 25 PSI on that particular motor should be making I dunno around 1600 HP? He has turned boost up but it breaks drivetrain & does'nt hook.
I hope to have mine on the chassis dyno sometime in May/June to tune it. 394 inch with 15 PSI non intercooled. I would hope it puts around ~1000-1050 to tires in street trim (not a race motor)? We'll see. Really should'nt be much of a challenge, mine should be making at least 650-670 NA based on similar engines I've dynoed NA.
That would be one nice thing about a blower motor VS turbo, so much easier to dyno them. I'd really love to dyno my turbo motor on the SF902 but almost impossible. It would take a week to get it setup on dyno.... Blower motor would'nt be too tough at all.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 07:13 PM
i didn't think you were picking on me.
keep us posted on your outcome!
take video.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/07/09 07:27 PM
I'm not arguing with anyone, just spouting so take it for what it's worth. I still think a big fat motor isn't going to see much boost out of that blower, and for sure no where near the rated boost. It for me would be easier to just leave the line at the rpm it would hold. I'm thinking very low rpms since the big block isn't going to be as peaky as the small block, so put a glide in it leave as high as it will take, maybe 3000 or lower rpm and the power would be pretty even coming on, and for sure not as much Tq loss at the shift. Like I said if it were a real big huffer then the 400 would for sure be as big as it would ever need.
Posted By: rtstreet
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/08/09 03:35 AM
yes air to water, for now the 2400hp from procharger, and a chisled performance ice tank(we dont have the tank yet, anybody have one?)
Posted By: rtstreet
Re: have ? about best combo - 01/08/09 03:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
The secret is in the Heads...Not sure the legal heads for a SB Mopar will get the job done personally. But I also thin Ryan or one of the SB head guys on here can better answer that.
245RP CNC INDY -1 with a 2.15"/1.625" "can" flow over 360/260 & have 2.90" of intake port cross section so..... it's in between a Ported INDY SR + a Ported INDY 440-1 flow wise/size wise...that's about maxed out INDY SB head IMO.
If W9 is legal I'd just do a 9...
The F1R is the real limiting factor to whole deal. I'm not a "racer" just an engine clown, but my thoughts would be how much TQ would the big motor make with boost (tremendous amt)& how do you hook that on cal tracs with a 10.5. Would definitely have to be a glide at that point... Especially when talking a Cent blower that comes on harder than a turbo down low..... I kind of agree with Kenny do high RPM SB although I'd do the up to 400" deal....just for sheer fact of trying to get it to hook. Lightened race block with alum heads will be pretty light motor & still allow to move weight around to rear of car to make weight.
I don't think power with any of the combo's will be the problem... If the F1R can put out 15 PSI (double atmosphere), (it lists at 38 PSI but that is all dependant on engine size it is feeding) you should be able to make 1200 out of a INDY 365 or max the F1R out at 1300-1400 at 390-400 inches.
I'd just go with whatever you're more comfortable with.
with good intelligent discussion, like this, we can learn alot.
thanks keep it up, new wrinkles in the brain
p.s. everyone else to, i dont know how quote that many