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E-85 fuel

Posted By: Steve Reynolds

E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 01:52 AM

We have an RB440, originally built by Nick Wilson, 12.5 compression, Edelbrock heads & a solid roller cam. We have been using 110 octane fuel, can E-85 be substituted, if so what changes need to be made?
I have already looked in past posts, maybe not far enough, thanks

Steve
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 01:56 AM

Quote:

We have an RB440, originally built by Nick Wilson, 12.5 compression, Edelbrock heads & a solid roller cam. We have been using 110 octane fuel, can E-85 be substituted, if so what changes need to be made?
I have already looked in past posts, maybe not far enough, thanks

Steve



Yes E-85 will work.. the carb will need to be worked
over.. when using E-85 you need 30% more fuel across
the board... and make sure the pump will pump at
least the 30% more
Posted By: Steve Reynolds

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 02:12 AM

The Demon has had twin Holley blue pumps forever with no problems ever

Steve
Posted By: Curt

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 03:17 AM

Need to make sure pumps, lines,regulators,diaphrams,tank,cell foam (if applies) are compatible.....
Curt
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 12:10 PM

Get A/F ratio correct (Lambda about .80 to.90) and you will have more power than before...
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 05:56 PM

Quote:

Get A/F ratio correct (Lambda about .80 to.90) and you will have more power than before...



I considered this fuel then decided race gas(unleaded 101)is easier to tune, no special pumps, lines and carb mods needed. Two guys I know runnin it w/spray blew their stuff up. KISS method but of course that`s MY opinion...............
Posted By: ajcasini

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 07:52 PM

Have been using e85 for around 8 years and have had no issues with engines being hurt etc. We did run into some issues with BarryGrant fuel pressure regulators eating the seat. Have run Aeromotive, holley, magna fuel and quick fuel products and have had no issues.

It is a great alternative race fuel. Requires a little more maintenance than gas but not nearly what you would do with methanol. The big advantages are cooler temps, cost and it makes more power.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 08:30 PM

I`ve heard great things too but I`m lazy so proven simplicity over a few hp which I can make up somewhere else.
Posted By: ajcasini

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 09:16 PM

I made the change more for the cost savings over the race season. When I ran race fuel again the last couple years and to complete the season last year the fuel cost was around 1800$ runnign C12. That was 3 drums of fuel. Running E85 I would go through 4 drums a season at a cost of about 165 a drum for a total cost of 660$. For a racer thats a lot of extra tow money.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/12/14 09:31 PM

Makes good sense which I slightly lack...........
Posted By: sshemi

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 11:34 AM

I have been running e85 for alot of years now and some time without useing e85 specific parts. I have NEVER emptied the fuel system for winter storage and have never had a problem. Well on one car i had a problem where i had used gasket goo on the stock pickup and the fuel dissolved(?) it so the float valves would stick.
Guess that would happen on gas too.
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 11:58 AM

Quote:

I considered this fuel then decided race gas(unleaded 101)is easier to tune...

The E85 is actually easier to tune because E85 is less sensitive to the absolutely correct A/F ratio, it will give max power over a bigger A/F ratio span than gasoline...and the octane is higher than 101 race gas...
Posted By: dthemi

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 03:50 PM

I like running it in the summer. Knocks the temp right out of the motor, and let's you hot lap easier. Also makes way better power than gas on those hot summer days.

Winter time can be a little tough starting, and warming up. Almost impossible without a lean out valve if it's really cold.

Keep your gas carb. Throw it on when it gets cold, and when real winter comes your fuel system is better off with gas sitting in it.
Posted By: racerx

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 04:31 PM

Just wondering at what temps are uall have problems startups? I'v had no problem at 45 deg. temps Also I know keeping the fuel lid tight on the drums will help keep fuel fresh but do uall keep drums off the ground(on blocks)?

Not trying to jack this thread, but sense were on the subject.....Thax.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 04:42 PM

Quote:

Just wondering at what temps are uall have problems startups? I'v had no problem at 45 deg. temps Also I know keeping the fuel lid tight on the drums will help keep fuel fresh but do uall keep drums off the ground(on blocks)?

Not trying to jack this thread, but sense were on the subject.....Thax.



On my car I had some issues starting at about 40*..
I kept my drums on the shop floor(heated concrete)
during the winter months.. sealed drums... I never
had any issues with the drums or fuel.. if it was
on a dirt floor in a pole barn I would have the drums
on wood (some 2X4s) just so the moisture didnt bother
the drums
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 05:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I considered this fuel then decided race gas(unleaded 101)is easier to tune...

The E85 is actually easier to tune because E85 is less sensitive to the absolutely correct A/F ratio, it will give max power over a bigger A/F ratio span than gasoline...and the octane is higher than 101 race gas...




Sounds ok but no stations near by and I drive 2-3 miles and fill er up............SIMPLE. The VP-101 I use likes rich tunes as in 12.0-12.2 so far but was as high as 13.0 when I stomped the Vette.............
Posted By: dthemi

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 05:46 PM

Cold starting is mostly cam related. The bigger the cam, the harder it starts in the cold, even with high static compression. Slow burning fuel with a ton of overlap.
Posted By: racerx

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 05:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Get A/F ratio correct (Lambda about .80 to.90) and you will have more power than before...



I considered this fuel then decided race gas(unleaded 101)is easier to tune, no special pumps, lines and carb mods needed. Two guys I know runnin it w/spray blew their stuff up. KISS method but of course that`s MY opinion...............

Hmmm..... what was it not enough fuel(leaning it out)?
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/13/14 06:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Get A/F ratio correct (Lambda about .80 to.90) and you will have more power than before...



I considered this fuel then decided race gas(unleaded 101)is easier to tune, no special pumps, lines and carb mods needed. Two guys I know runnin it w/spray blew their stuff up. KISS method but of course that`s MY opinion...............

Hmmm..... what was it not enough fuel(leaning it out)?




Not sure what happened but obviously they were out of the tuning parameters cos it happened twice..........
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 02:48 AM

Quote:

We have an RB440, originally built by Nick Wilson, 12.5 compression, Edelbrock heads & a solid roller cam. We have been using 110 octane fuel, can E-85 be substituted,

No problem, IMO.
I ran 13.5 with Indy heads, 0.042" quench, with E-85
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 05:48 AM

440 w/ Ross forged flat top pistons, zero deck. 4.35" bore, 3.75" stroke, 6.76" Eagle rods. Aluminum Eddy RPM heads, 75cc chambers polished. With 0.039" head gasket it all calculates to about 11.25:1. Cam is Ultradyne flat tappet solid. Lash 0.016" hot. Cam card picture attached. I used a degree wheel and verified, cam is installed per the card. Intake is Mopar P3690982 converted to port EFI (Weiand six pack tunnel ram).

With iron heads, eddy RPM intake, and a carb at just over 10:1 I was able to run on 93 octane fuel.

Everything I have read so far says I will probably have to run higher octane now. My fuel system can easily handle the flow requirements for E-85, the only thing I would have to do is up the injector sizing.

The way I see it is I have these options:
1) Race gas / race gas blend / or some sort of octane boost
2) E-85
3) Bigger cam
4) Thicker head gasket

Anyone profess to know enough about this to know for sure that I can not run pump gas with this engine? There is a gas station 1 mile from my house that has E-85, but, if I drive any great distance it may be hard to always find it. Running cooler would be a nice benefit, it does get quite hot here in Texas in the summer. I am tempted to go a little bigger on the cam as it is, the springs installed are good to about 0.600". I would be interested in opinions regarding the correct cam sizing to match this intake. Car is manual transmission, so stall speed is not going to be an issue. Rear axle is 3.90 and the car is a '68 Barracuda.

-Michael

Attached picture 8361499-CamCard.jpg
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 05:49 AM

Intake manifold...

-Michael

Attached picture 8361500-Edelbrocktestfit#2.jpg
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 05:53 AM

Your chambers are ALOT more efficient than the iron heads were for sure. But it will still be on the edge with pump IMO. ANother thing I found out in my old BB the detonation got worse when I went from auto to manual.
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 05:58 AM

Quote:

ANother thing I found out in my old BB the detonation got worse when I went from auto to manual.



Of course... the converter softens the load at lower rpm. But, did not think of that. Yes, also switching from auto to manual, I did not think of that variable.

-Michael

Attached picture 8361510-AluminumRPM.jpg
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 06:07 AM

Quote:

But it will still be on the edge with pump IMO.



Well the ECU can take switch inputs for multiple tunes, I think up to 4 versions. If it will eek by with pump gas and maybe a bottle of octane boost for road trips when I can't get the "good stuff" I can live with that option. Then, for cruising local and the track I can fill it up with E-85 and throw the switch! Tank is about 32 gallons and has a built in sump with an in tank Aeromotive pump. I designed the fuel system with the E-85 option in mind.

-Michael
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 06:08 AM

Quote:

440 w/ Ross forged flat top pistons, zero deck. 4.35" bore, 3.75" stroke, 6.76" Eagle rods. Aluminum Eddy RPM heads, 75cc chambers polished. With 0.039" head gasket it all calculates to about 11.25:1. Cam is Ultradyne flat tappet solid. Lash 0.016" hot. Cam card picture attached. I used a degree wheel and verified, cam is installed per the card. Intake is Mopar P3690982 converted to port EFI (Weiand six pack tunnel ram).

With iron heads, eddy RPM intake, and a carb at just over 10:1 I was able to run on 93 octane fuel.

Everything I have read so far says I will probably have to run higher octane now. My fuel system can easily handle the flow requirements for E-85, the only thing I would have to do is up the injector sizing.

The way I see it is I have these options:
1) Race gas / race gas blend / or some sort of octane boost
2) E-85
3) Bigger cam
4) Thicker head gasket

Anyone profess to know enough about this to know for sure that I can not run pump gas with this engine? There is a gas station 1 mile from my house that has E-85, but, if I drive any great distance it may be hard to always find it. Running cooler would be a nice benefit, it does get quite hot here in Texas in the summer. I am tempted to go a little bigger on the cam as it is, the springs installed are good to about 0.600". I would be interested in opinions regarding the correct cam sizing to match this intake. Car is manual transmission, so stall speed is not going to be an issue. Rear axle is 3.90 and the car is a '68 Barracuda.

-Michael



I'm running higher compression than you are on my
SB with iron heads at the moment with a 260/270 @ 50
cam... on the street I run 87 octane.... mine is 10.4
EDIT
I see you say its 11.2... with 93 and alum heads
I'd run it... E-85 would do it easy but its only E-85
during the summer months
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 06:18 AM

Quote:


I'm running higher compression than you are on my
SB with iron heads at the moment with a 260/270 @ 50
cam... on the street I run 87 octane.... mine is 10.4



Sorry boss, don't understand what you mean by 10.4?

With 260 @ 50 you definitely have a larger cam and your intake closes later than mine and bleeds off some pressure at the lower RPMs. I can't imagine driving the car in your signature on the street, that must be interesting.

-Michael
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 06:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I'm running higher compression than you are on my
SB with iron heads at the moment with a 260/270 @ 50
cam... on the street I run 87 octane.... mine is 10.4



Sorry boss, don't understand what you mean by 10.4?

With 260 @ 50 you definitely have a larger cam and you intake closes later than mine and bleeds off some pressure at the lower RPMs. I can't imagine driving the car in your signature on the street, that must be interesting.

-Michael



No not that car... my Rampage is 10.4 compression
with iron heads


Attached picture 8361535-IMG_20140528_121230181_HDR-w640-h479.jpg
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 06:32 AM

Quote:


No not that car... my Rampage is 10.4 compression
with iron heads




Wow, you had me going there... and in the back of my mind I was thinking "when did they ever make a W9 in iron, OK... don't know everything, maybe they did."

There is so much information and misinformation out there on this topic. I read one place where they say you can go up 1 full point when going from iron to alum w/ no drawback, then I read that DCR is the key, and it makes no difference if the head is iron or not. Then there are folks swearing they run higher than the "recommended" 8.3 DRC because they have better heads and flat top pistons with good quench. The number of opinions on the topic seems infinite. And then add in whose DCR calculation method is correct, and what number to actual use, and, then, of course if it is a solid lifter cam it is different and lash comes into play. Of course altitude here is 675 feet above sea level... that matters also. Just in case... car is painted dark green.

-Michael
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/14/14 06:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:


No not that car... my Rampage is 10.4 compression
with iron heads




Wow, you had me going there... and in the back of my mind I was thinking "when did they ever make a W9 in iron, OK... don't know everything, maybe they did."

There is so much information and misinformation out there on this topic. I read one place where they say you can go up 1 full point when going from iron to alum w/ no drawback, then I read that DCR is the key, and it makes no difference if the head is iron or not. Then there are folks swearing they run higher than the "recommended" 8.3 DRC because they have better heads and flat top pistons with good quench. The number of opinions on the topic seems infinite. And then add in whose DCR calculation method is correct, and what number to actual use, and, then, of course if it is a solid lifter cam it is different and lash comes into play. Of course altitude here is 675 feet above sea level... that matters also. Just in case... car is painted dark green.

-Michael



Well I agree with the full point of comp with alum
heads.. also your altitude is low and one other thing..
if you keep the engine cooler it helps also... JMO
but 11.25 and alum head 625 altitude on 93.. I'd run it
Posted By: D-50

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/16/14 03:40 AM

I have only run 93 octane in my small block and I have had no problems so far. It is 10.9 com. with aluminum heads. Cam is 255/266 @.050. Cranking cylinder pressure is 190-200.
Posted By: Steve Reynolds

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/17/14 05:00 AM

So, I have lots of good information as always, & I thank you all. The 440 has a 1050 dominator with 92 jets, what needs to be done to it for E-85 compatibility, I think the rest of the fuel system will be ok?

Steve
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/17/14 11:02 AM

I run what I have with E85, and just keep an eye on things. Purchasing new parts I tend to choose those saying themselves to be E85-compatible. Smaller bits and pieces used in my home-built fuel system I drop one identical part in a glass jar with E85 and just leave it there for the next few years, to see if anything is affected.

For getting the correct jetting I recommend you to have a look at the Innovate MTX-L or corresponding...you won't regret it.

For shooting in the dark you can use +30% flow as guideline...
Posted By: ajcasini

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/17/14 02:44 PM

Steve to make it happy on e85 you would need:

Boosters
Metering Blocks
Air Bleed Change
Needle and seat change
Squirter change

Possibly floats if has plastic or brass.
Posted By: Steve Reynolds

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/17/14 03:07 PM

Thank you again for all the information & advice, now I just need to make it happen.

Steve
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/17/14 06:20 PM

Quote:

Steve to make it happy on e85 you would need:

Boosters
Metering Blocks
Air Bleed Change
Needle and seat change
Squirter change

Possibly floats if has plastic or brass.

just make it easy and contact thie guy ^
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E-85 fuel - 12/17/14 06:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Steve to make it happy on e85 you would need:

Boosters
Metering Blocks
Air Bleed Change
Needle and seat change
Squirter change

Possibly floats if has plastic or brass.

just make it easy and contact thie guy ^



Steve.. just send your carb to AJ and let him fix it
up... it will save you a lot of time... and maybe a engine
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