Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!

Posted By: gregsdart

Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 01:28 PM

I would like to here from anyone having built a normally aspirated Gen 3 motor, with hp made and total cost. Pump gas, e85, race gas, injection or carbs, it is all good to hear about. There are more people out there than me I am sure that are interested in a getting a better picture of what is doable.

Posted By: onig

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 03:40 PM

I would love to see the true answer on this one.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 06:25 PM

Quote:

I would love to see the true answer on this one.

You and I both.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 07:14 PM

-Stock bore, stock piston 6.1 shortblock. Fresh bearings throughout. Crank turned .010/.010
-Factory rings, top ring opened up to .021 (should be the key to making the pistons not break)
-Frank Racing 219/227 on a 112 LSA
-GTP ported 5.7 eagle heads. 68cc closed chamber, fully ported.
-11.2:1 static, 9.2:1 Dynamic
-Stock 6.1 intake with BBK 80mm TB. Factory 6.1 fuel rails and SRT4 stage 1 injectors
-EFISource MS3 Gold box
-170* Thermostat
-Billet Tech Catch can
-TTI 1 3/4 headers with 2.5" H-pipe and turbo mufflers.

-4 speed 833, 8.75 axle. Minimal drivetrain loss.

I expect 1.3 to 1.5 hp/ci out of this motor. 490-556 hp out of it. A little more if I can get the intake opened up to 90mm and put a bigger TB on it.

I think I'll be really happy with this cheap and mild combo. I can't comment on prices because I've been very fortunate, but this can be done very cheap if you horse trade and wait for good deals.

Here is what I expect the car to sound like.

YOUTUBE LINK Those are the same specs as my cam.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 08:33 PM

I have about 7K in mine. I have bought a bunch of discounted parts along the way to. Rotating assembly is expensive but along same lines as any other build.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 08:40 PM

I'm under $7000 in parts in addition to my labor for the engine build. Including the motor and EFI. The EFI was the biggest single purchase.

I did get some really good deals and a pile of free parts. I can't complain.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 10:32 PM

How much power do you get for 7K?

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 11:10 PM

About 450-500 rwhp depending on the drivetrain loss.

Enough to take a 3500 lb car to high tens. Thats been proven in the math on the LX platform.

I expect my roadrace style suspention to be 115-120 mph capable. It wont 60' but I can make it up past 330' for sure.

And it will idle at 750 with AC running.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 11:15 PM

I forgot to add the $1500 for EFI and $800 for headers so roughly $9300 ish. I traded a 19 yr old flat top 400/451 for a almost complete 6.1 that needed rebuilt. So im around $6500 out of pocket IMO. The combo I have usually dyno's 500-560 RWHP in an LX car with the factory NAG 1 trans so im thinking my engine should be in the 600-650hp range. But this is far from an all out build, its EFI, hydraulic roller, non adjustable/no maintenance and pump 91 friendly that can be driven across country, which I plan to do with some road racing in between.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/07/14 11:57 PM

Quote:

I forgot to add the $1500 for EFI and $800 for headers so roughly $9300 ish. I traded a 19 yr old flat top 400/451 for a almost complete 6.1 that needed rebuilt. So im around $6500 out of pocket IMO. The combo I have usually dyno's 500-560 RWHP in an LX car with the factory NAG 1 trans so im thinking my engine should be in the 600-650hp range. But this is far from an all out build, its EFI, hydraulic roller, non adjustable/no maintenance and pump 91 friendly that can be driven across country, which I plan to do with some road racing in between.

That sums up what I did, except I lost track of all the BB stuff and spare hemi stuff I sold.

I'm going to try and only keep up on oil changes/chassis lubrication and fuel filters, Other than that I'm hoping it never needs to be torn down past the intake and valve covers.

I've got to make it to about 1000 miles before I can swap to synthetic oil and call the clutch broken in. Wade has about 6000 miles on his car since swapping to the Hemi and hes been beyond happy.

And yeah, the 426 ci motors are making way over 500rwhp from a NAG1 at like 25% drivetrain loss.

A big cam 426 took 340Rick to 9's....and its probably very streetable.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 02:51 AM

What weight and what mph did 340Rick show, Alex?

As you would have guessed - Im a sceptic on most of the quoted rwhp figs on the forums.

We rarely see the LX cars mph any where near close to what the dyno shops claim.

However...dont want to go OT....but a recent post over there showed a 234@.50, .601 lift cnc head stock stroke 6.1 motor tuned by PWR make 450 rwhp.

I think that was a pretty accurate guide on whats actually possible with stock rotating assembly considering the cam duration limitations

BTW - that stick is the about biggest one you can fit without custom slugs...so its a worthwhile benchmark.

PS - Not talking about custom stroker builds etc...just cammed and head mods

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 03:02 AM

Costings - USD

Crate 6.1 $5500
Radiator inc fabrication, pulleys, alternator, sensors, catch can, electrc fans, $700

Pan and hardware, dipstick, Lokar trans dipper, & throttle linkage, TTI block off plate, TTI mounts $800

MSD with harness - $800

FWIW...I found all the " little stuff" like the Lokar , TTI and Milodon stuff really added to the bottom line.

I didnt cost in headers because mine was not a normal install.

So parts prices alone came to almost 8K.

My carb induction was offset by selling the EFI stuff.

Seems a lot can be saved by going with a used motor which will have alternator, pulleys etc.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 05:14 AM

You're not going to see very high mph with the LX. They're too heavy. I built the cars for years before I ever thought about putting one in my car.

My experience is all first hand. There is no reason to doubt the rwhp, because it's just one of many figures that indicate the motors potential.

I set my cam up to be the max I felt comfortable with. I could have gone up a little higher on intake and exhaust duration but I didn't see the need for a few more peak hp.

Above 224/228 you get too close for comfort to the Pistons. I won't cross that threshold with stock Pistons.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 05:33 AM

Alex - the HP calculators take weight into account - that's how they arrived at the formula...they plotted ET vs weight vs MPH vs KNOWN crank HP.

Those big cars don't run high MPH because the motors aren't making the HP to pull the weight.

Anyhow...I don't want to argue - work with me on the math and tell me where I may be going wrong...

1 - The factory 6.1 makes around 425 engine HP...call it 440 engine HP if you like....Agreed?

2 - Take 15% losses (which is being kind) = 377 REAR wheel HP (Probably less rwhp thru an auto)

3 - 500 rwhp less 377 rwhp = 123 RWHP

So do you believe a Hyd roller cam and ported heads is adding 123(or more!) Rear Wheel HP..?????

(thats close 170 engine HP)

Dunno why people bother with nitrous if that's the case..............

My point is simply this - 450 rwhp for a [Email]230@.50[/Email] cam and ported heads is believable.... 500 RWHP is fairyland.

I also know they CAN make the 500 rear wheel - just not with only an "off the shelf" stick and some cnc'd heads most guys stick with.

Just my

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 06:09 AM

My cam is 247/255 @ .050 and I hope it sounds decent. I paid $250 for it and I better get my monies worth!

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 06:30 AM

Quote:

Alex - the HP calculators take weight into account - that's how they arrived at the formula...they plotted ET vs weight vs MPH vs KNOWN crank HP.

Those big cars don't run high MPH because the motors aren't making the HP to pull the weight.

Anyhow...I don't want to argue - work with me on the math and tell me where I may be going wrong...

1 - The factory 6.1 makes around 425 engine HP...call it 440 engine HP if you like....Agreed?

2 - Take 15% losses (which is being kind) = 377 REAR wheel HP (Probably less rwhp thru an auto)

3 - 500 rwhp less 377 rwhp = 123 RWHP

So do you believe a Hyd roller cam and ported heads is adding 123(or more!) Rear Wheel HP..?????

(thats close 170 engine HP)

Dunno why people bother with nitrous if that's the case..............

My point is simply this - 450 rwhp for a [Email]230@.50[/Email] cam and ported heads is believable.... 500 RWHP is fairyland.

I also know they CAN make the 500 rear wheel - just not with only an "off the shelf" stick and some cnc'd heads most guys stick with.

Just my

How does 11.21 at 123 mph at ~4100 lb at 260' DA work out in your calculator?

Stock bottom end 5.7 charger. GTP heads and small FRI cam.

Alex played a hand in that build.

Edit to add: most 5.7 LX records were set at full weight (4200-4400) in the 118-120 mph range, 11.2-11.5. The above motor ran an 11.5@ 118-119 at 4400, unknown DA. The 5.7 that took the record after that was a forged motor that put out 504(?) on the engine dyno and 430+ on the chassis dyno, but ran 11.56@ 118 @3000' DA at full weight (4000+?). That car ran 11.21@ 120 with better air (unknown DA).

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 01:02 PM

Hmmmmmm,............Wallace says around 610 engine HP for 121 @ 4100.

As you know...ET is pretty irrelevant in hp calculations...too many variables,

Assuming its auto and running a stall....Id say 20% losses would be fair......which makes for around 480 rear wheel....give or take

Im not going to quibble over 20 rwhp....but I am interested in what else was done to that 5.7?

Pretty solid return.....but what duration cam?...,what was done to the heads, intake , exhaust and was it running any accessories?

Wade/Alex........You can probably see where Im going with this ....there' a huge difference betwen a " cam and heads" swap and a well thought out build which upgrades every aspect of the power train for optimum performance....

Im just concerned people will think 500. Rwhp is "easy"

FWIW....118 @ 4400 comes in around 580 crank or 460 rwhp....... ...

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 02:53 PM

I agree with you Mal. 500 rwhp isn't likely from a stock short block Hemi, but track times that match up with that power level on the old hp / mph calculator are within reach if you dial the car in to the Nth degree. Alex's expectations from his build are spot on IMO. And yes, $7k could get you 500 rwhp- if you want to make sure you get the bragging number you'll want a stroker motor (5.7 block cheaper and will fit within $7k total build).

The above examples over performed on the track vs their actual dyno data. Definitely reflective of the fact that the hp/mph formula was developed using statistical data from drag cars and motors from previous decades.

The best example is the ~504 hp engine dyno 5.7 that went 11.21@ 119 at full weight. The owner and I discussed some of the outrageously high dyno numbers from similar builds (500+ rwhp from 370 ci 5.7 build if I remember correctly), and the conclusion was the other dyno was 'happy', and he couldn't wait to meet them on the track. The 504 hp owner also acknowledged the dyno is a tool for tuning and that's it.

I agree that the track is the best measure of an engines ability, and that formula is a good way to compare motors within a platform. Hemi builds in modern Mopars rarely dyno as well as their LSx counterparts, but they typically over perform their dyno numbers at the track. Unsure if that is related to their chassis, cam and intake selection, Cd, or what. I am unsure if that trend continues when drag pak intakes and more aggressive cams are used- those motors dyno quite well!

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 06:11 PM

Sorry if I'm to far OT, but how much power does a NAG1 suck up compared to a 727/904?

Posted By: Just-a-dart

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/08/14 06:18 PM

Greg my alum. block, 6.4 headed 440" project is moving forward slowly. But sometimes it is best not to add up all the receipts.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/09/14 01:17 AM

At the end of the day I doubt I have anymore money in my Gen III build than I would in a comparably powered SB or BB with EFI. Things I DIDNT have to buy:
Aftermarket heads and the usual work they require
Aftermarket main caps and their machine work
Aftermarket block
Aftermarket valves
Aftermarket rocker arms and shafts
Aftermarket timing set
Aftermarket water pump
Aftermarket intake
Aftermarket valve covers
Aftermarket "special" gaskets
Aftermarket balancer
Aftermarket distributor
Aftermarket plug wires
Aftermarket ignition
Or aftermarket coil lol.....

Posted By: Just-a-dart

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/09/14 03:25 AM

72swinger it appears I have made a few mistakes on my build and your list doesn't work for me.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/09/14 05:40 AM

Quote:

72swinger it appears I have made a few mistakes on my build and your list doesn't work for me.

you're going to have a beast.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/09/14 08:34 AM

Glad we're on the same path Wade...

Im sure Alex didnt want to imply it was easy....but unfo these chasss dynos con people into thinking it is.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/11/14 12:42 AM

It is by far the easiest way to make power with manners. Its not an all out race ready solution, but it can play one on the weekends.

The dyno calculators are a sub standard tool. They are based in ancient math and hardware designed in the 1950's.

They've got no place in anything LSX or 3G hemi related.

Mal, I've said it once...I'll say it again. Get rid of the carbs and get rid of that "custom" cam. You could transform that car in a heartbeat. You've been over THITEKS, a Supercharger and now pistons and a cam. Spending dollars before your pennies are all stacked.

One of the fastest 6.1's to date was a completely stock 6.1 shortblock with 60k miles, ported 6.1 heads, a 21x/22x cam and a ported 90mm intake.

11.0x in a 3900 LB magnnum. Look him up..."Hemiwagn" greg davies.

Why reinvent the wheel when you can just copy it?

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours! - 11/11/14 03:51 AM

But I love the smell of gas in the morning!!........and Im not ready to admit defeat yet!!!

LOL!

But seriously....my objective is to not chase 1/10ths.....the blower idea was a " band aid"......

.........its more about getting an 'efficient' level of performance out of what I have..

And of course tracking down the 'inefficiencies' has caused me to shift focus from the intake to the retarded nature of these 'custom' cams...which I think is part of the broader problem.

If I can get the stick installed at a decent ICL....It'll be making power whete it should.

Re calculators...I think you're making a harsh judgement on them........try the wallace one...I think it seems pretty accurate if you use the weight/hp inputs.