Moparts
What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC
Posted By: Mpetros
What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/07/14 04:53 AM
Im looking for Ideas....What do You Mopar build to compete with? It has to be 584 or less Ci a Single 4,Iron Block and conventional valve angle Heads? It has run with a SR 20 headed Chevy that Makes 1203 HP? This is what I run against Conventional Head 'Puller Series'
581 Conventional Head 'Puller Series' - Steve Schmidt Racing Engines
Click image to enlarge
View Engine Purchase Policy
PRICE
$23,950
Horsepower: 1203
Engine Completely
Assembled and Dyno Tested
* FREE *
Shipping, Engine Crate,
and Transport Stand!
(FREE SHIPPING is to Commercial Addresses in
48 States Only. Residential, Out-0f-Area, or Lift Gate Service May Incur Additional Charges)
581 Conventional Head 'Puller Series' - Steve Schmidt Racing Engines
Click image to enlarge
Posted By: cj391
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/07/14 05:42 AM
B1-pso I guess
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/07/14 06:04 AM
I doubt any conventional mopar heads can compete with the SR20, and not for that price.
Posted By: dakotawilly
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/07/14 06:42 AM
simple,just call schmidt and ask him to build u a mopar motor...that particular chevy head flows
508@.900 lift out of the box.i have seen b1 pso heads flow right around the 500 cfm mark with major work,so,looks like you would be behind the times at best.cyl head would be the major downfall here.but,youll never know unless you try.but be prepared to spend all your kids inheritance and hock the wifes jewels too....
Posted By: dakotawilly
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/08/14 04:43 AM
actually,i would call tom hemphill at hemphill racing engines.he builds big horsepower mopar engines and knows the ropes to gain every hp available with conventional head configurations...
Posted By: 68CudaB1
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/09/14 01:53 AM
Unfortunately, NOT gonna happen...
Posted By: fishy340
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/09/14 04:05 AM
I'd buy a chevy from TRE in texas.If your true to it being a mopar just save up another 12.000 because we're so special...lol
Posted By: Sherminator
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/09/14 05:08 AM
Call nick at compuflow media oh
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/09/14 04:31 PM
Hands down Toms the best Mopar Guy in My area..Unfortunately with 4.800 bore space and no new development in 20 years leaves you scratching your head..One of the reasons he no longer has a Mopar Engine in his Cuda
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/10/14 05:28 AM
An SR-20 may be a conventional head, but it is NOT a stock valve angle head and the name says so. A stock BBC is a 23* head..........and they would NOT roll them over unless it made a difference.
Now, while I DO have my doubts about that HP number claimed for a 582 conventional headed motor, even with SR-20s, as others have stated, to build a Mopar, inch for inch and power for power with a stock TYPE head.............ain't gonna happen. That SR-20 is a killer head, but you put it on a .100 smaller bore and it will kick it in the head.............hence the 4.800 bore space of the Mopar is the root of most of our issues with killer heads
Monte
Posted By: 74yellowduster
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/10/14 04:52 PM
far as i know, iron block with 1200hp you are talking a dart block. they dont make those for mopars. they make them for chevy, fords, and even hondas.
funny but it sounds like politics to me. some bad blood somewhere. owner probably got stomped by a hemi or 440 when he was 16 drving his chevelle still had pimples. honda!
using a stock iron block at that power level you would be joining the "two piece stock block club"
Quote:
Im looking for Ideas....What do You Mopar build to compete with? It has to be 584 or less Ci a Single 4,Iron Block and conventional valve angle Heads? It has run with a SR 20 headed Chevy that Makes 1203 HP? This is what I run against Conventional Head 'Puller Series'
581 Conventional Head 'Puller Series' - Steve Schmidt Racing Engines
Click image to enlarge
View Engine Purchase Policy
PRICE
$23,950
Horsepower: 1203
Engine Completely
Assembled and Dyno Tested
* FREE *
Shipping, Engine Crate,
and Transport Stand!
(FREE SHIPPING is to Commercial Addresses in
48 States Only. Residential, Out-0f-Area, or Lift Gate Service May Incur Additional Charges)
581 Conventional Head 'Puller Series' - Steve Schmidt Racing Engines
Click image to enlarge
Posted By: sasquatch
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/10/14 06:07 PM
It can be done but take that price and double it. The stock valve angle is the big problem. The SR 20 is a legit 500 cfm head.You would have to use a hemi head if that rule is strictly inforced because I do not know of any wedge head with a stock valve angle that moves any where close to that much air. Predator should do it but not legal. Hemi would be the way to go. Not cheap.
Todd
Posted By: sdaurity
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/11/14 04:09 PM
Everybody does these threads about can it make the same power, what can compete with a chevy etc etc. Yes a Hemi with millenium heads or similar could make close to the same numbers but nobody wants to talk about reliability and mantinence of the Chrysler vs BBC. No way you could pay me to race a max effort hemi and keep up with it. A SR20 BBC would be 1/2 the upkeep.
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/11/14 11:59 PM
The SR20 is no where near the best head chevy makes!
I would think if the Hemi head would be legal so would the Big Chief & Big Duke heads and they still ain't the best chevy head!
Posted By: Sherminator
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/12/14 04:07 AM
Your not allowed to run a hemi in the prostock 4 x 4 class been that way for 30 years . They they didn t come in a truck so u cann t run them Well a SR 20 wasn t the desgn of what come in a pick up either
Posted By: jim sciortino
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/12/14 05:11 AM
It is futile to attempt to compete with a performance aftermarket that continually updates engine blocks and cylinder heads for race engines labeled Chevy and Ford, let alone the R & D provided by the top builders. If the parts don't exist for MOPAR racers, they don't exist.
It's as simple as that.
Face it, short of our "Pro Stock" hardware, like the P5, or the HEMI.......even current Pontiac block and head offerings from the aftermarket have surpassed MOPAR.
Posted By: sasquatch
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/12/14 05:45 AM
I completely agree. Building the hemi to that level is INSANE. You could have three of the Chevy motors for the price of one hemi at that level. It can be done but I would advise against it. A lot of sanctioning bodies have rules that just are not optimal for the mopar stuff for sure. Especially the truck pullers. I just said it could be done but not it should be done.
Posted By: 74yellowduster
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/12/14 02:30 PM
who needs Dart blocks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsrwNqu0e-Mgen 3 hemi 201mph 6.97 sec
chebbie boys will start cryin soon when they get to 6.50's
Posted By: 1967dartgt
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/12/14 02:59 PM
Quote:
far as i know, iron block with 1200hp you are talking a dart block. they dont make those for mopars. they make them for chevy, fords, and even hondas.
funny but it sounds like politics to me. some bad blood somewhere. owner probably got stomped by a hemi or 440 when he was 16 drving his chevelle still had pimples. honda!
using a stock iron block at that power level you would be joining the "two piece stock block club"
Quote:
Im looking for Ideas....What do You Mopar build to compete with? It has to be 584 or less Ci a Single 4,Iron Block and conventional valve angle Heads? It has run with a SR 20 headed Chevy that Makes 1203 HP? This is what I run against Conventional Head 'Puller Series'
581 Conventional Head 'Puller Series' - Steve Schmidt Racing Engines
Click image to enlarge
View Engine Purchase Policy
PRICE
$23,950
Horsepower: 1203
Engine Completely
Assembled and Dyno Tested
* FREE *
Shipping, Engine Crate,
and Transport Stand!
(FREE SHIPPING is to Commercial Addresses in
48 States Only. Residential, Out-0f-Area, or Lift Gate Service May Incur Additional Charges)
581 Conventional Head 'Puller Series' - Steve Schmidt Racing Engines
Click image to enlarge
Yes I sure Mopar stuck them with a unpaid bill like they have done to lots of other suppliers!
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/13/14 05:32 AM
Steve Schmidt also gives a one year warranty on those Engines as long as You don't take them apart
Posted By: fishy340
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/13/14 05:34 AM
Quote:
who needs Dart blocks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsrwNqu0e-M
gen 3 hemi 201mph 6.97 sec
chebbie boys will start cryin soon when
they get to 6.50's
Got about $ 55.000 I can borrow ?
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/13/14 07:54 PM
Quote:
Steve Schmidt also gives a one year warranty on those Engines as long as You don't take them apart
This is true and a great selling point. Had a few Mopar guys out here convert to them in their Mopar cars. I will say the dyno numbers seem to be pretty inflated on them however. None of the cars I have seen converter to Schmidt power perform anywhere near what they dyno numbers are. Most are going no faster than they were with the Mopar motors they have. I mean come on I know of a certain Schmidt 655 in an ex pro stock car weighing 2200lbs that only manages 7.30's at sea level and 7.50's here. That is a LONG way from 1430hp..And I know of at least 4 others with similar results.
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/13/14 08:01 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Steve Schmidt also gives a one year warranty on those Engines as long as You don't take them apart
This is true and a great selling point. Had a few Mopar guys out here convert to them in their Mopar cars. I will say the dyno numbers seem to be pretty inflated on them however. None of the cars I have seen converter to Schmidt power perform anywhere near what they dyno numbers are. Most are going no faster than they were with the Mopar motors they have. I mean come on I know of a certain Schmidt 655 in an ex pro stock car weighing 2200lbs that only manages 7.30's at sea level and 7.50's here. That is a LONG way from 1430hp..And I know of at least 4 others with similar results.
I don't know, but I do know that a check book won't increase your talent level. Just ask McGaha.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/13/14 08:11 PM
Oh I got Mcgaha stories too
Had a couple friends that worked there for a couple years.
As for the Schmidt HP claims I think it is a pretty well known deal. Those things just do not live up to the claims.
Oh yeah as for competing with an SR deal in a Mopar. Forgetaboutit!!
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/13/14 08:24 PM
Quote:
Oh I got Mcgaha stories too Had a couple friends that worked there for a couple years.
I can only imagine what the atmosphere must be like in that shop. No thank you.
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/15/14 06:02 PM
I have heard rumors of a 4.840 Iron Mopar Block any truth to it?
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/15/14 07:12 PM
Indy has 4.84 blocks.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/15/14 08:49 PM
Quote:
who needs Dart blocks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsrwNqu0e-M
gen 3 hemi 201mph 6.97 sec
chebbie boys will start cryin soon when they get to 6.50's
This car weighs 3400lbs and this pass was also with the "small" blower.
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/15/14 11:41 PM
I will call Indy Monday.. But I thought they only did 4.840 in Aluminum.. Our Rule states Iron Block and they check them during super tech at start of season
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/16/14 12:51 AM
Doubt INDY does any iron 4.840 blocks, but even if they did, as far as I know, the only head that fits it is the 600/13. That ain't gonna get it done either. Not even close
Monte
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/16/14 12:54 AM
Quote:
who needs Dart blocks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsrwNqu0e-M
gen 3 hemi 201mph 6.97 sec
chebbie boys will start cryin soon when they get to 6.50's
What does this have to do with a thread talking about cast iron, big block, N/A, truck pulling engines??? 
Monte
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/16/14 01:33 AM
Sorry missed the iron part. They only do aluminum.
Posted By: B1MAXX
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/16/14 06:47 PM
Wouldn't 4.5 x 4.5 make more torque .... Horsepower is tq x rpm right? Is there a head that's gets this combo to 950-1000 ft/lbs range. Then 6400rpm = 1157-1218hp. Don't beat me up, this all just got me thinking.
I would think 975 ft/lbs would be better than 883ft/lbs. Then you would have to gear for lower rpm and more wheel speed. There is more to it than head cfm and dyno numbers. Heck I'd hate to see a racetrack full of guys standing around with a set of cylinder heads and dyno sheet.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/16/14 09:25 PM
Quote:
Wouldn't 4.5 x 4.5 make more torque .... Horsepower is tq x rpm right? Is there a head that's gets this combo to 950-1000 ft/lbs range. Then 6400rpm = 1157-1218hp. Don't beat me up, this all just got me thinking. I would think 975 ft/lbs would be better than 883ft/lbs. Then you would have to gear for lower rpm and more wheel speed. There is more to it than head cfm and dyno numbers. Heck I'd hate to see a racetrack full of guys standing around with a set of cylinder heads and dyno sheet.
A 572" B-1 motor that makes 1200hp at 6400 rpm..........damn baby, sign me up for one of them.........LOL!!!
Any yes, there IS more to it than cfm and dyno numbers............but ONE thing is constant. You want to make power, you have to move air and a lot of it. A smaller bore is never going to be condusive to flowing more air with a high flowing cylinder head. Air speed is important, but not at the cost of volume. There has to be a good balance.
As already talked about, the HEMI head has the cfm capability in the head to do this, but to make it flow enough air to make the required power, you will have to spin it to the moon.
Monte
Posted By: B1MAXX
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/16/14 09:51 PM
peak torque at 6400, max hp 7000-7200 need 880ft/lbs @ 7200 1206hp. was what I was thinking. What is the airflow potential difference between say 4.56 and 4.60/4.625 bore?
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 04:58 AM
Indy does only do 4.840 Blocks in Aluminum..
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 05:06 AM
Rumor Koleno was going to start making Blocks..Any Truth? Maybe with enough interest they would make a Iron 4.840 BS Block
Posted By: 1967dartgt
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 05:10 AM
Talk to Tony at BES he would be the one to get you closest to your goal.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 06:26 PM
Quote:
Rumor Koleno was going to start making Blocks..Any Truth? Maybe with enough interest they would make a Iron 4.840 BS Block
No reason..........there is no good head to put on it
Monte
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:05 PM
To the O/P's original question about what Mopar would you pick to compete with a SR20 engine. I have around 38k into my Predator engine with a steel block. There are few that know how to get 1200+ HP out of them, and I happen to know one. If you are ready to put down 38-40+ thousand to have a Mopar label, be my guest. Get started in the right direction by contacting boatracer 572. He's been successful with those combos. Or you could call Sunset Racecraft and order their cookie cutter 632 SR20 model for around 15k less.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:13 PM
Quote:
To the O/P's original question about what Mopar would you pick to compete with a SR20 engine. I have around 38k into my Predator engine with a steel block. There are few that know how to get 1200+ HP out of them, and I happen to know one. If you are ready to put down 38-40+ thousand to have a Mopar label, be my guest. Get started in the right direction by contacting boatracer 572. He's been successful with those combos. Or you could call Sunset Racecraft and order their cookie cutter 632 SR20 model for around 15k less.
Read his post again.........its a CONVENTIONAL headed class. Predators don't fit that bill and hence the general consensus of "it can't be done"
Monte
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
To the O/P's original question about what Mopar would you pick to compete with a SR20 engine. I have around 38k into my Predator engine with a steel block. There are few that know how to get 1200+ HP out of them, and I happen to know one. If you are ready to put down 38-40+ thousand to have a Mopar label, be my guest. Get started in the right direction by contacting boatracer 572. He's been successful with those combos. Or you could call Sunset Racecraft and order their cookie cutter 632 SR20 model for around 15k less.
Read his post again.........its a CONVENTIONAL headed class. Predators don't fit that bill and hence the general consensus of "it can't be done"
Monte, what would you design/change on the B1 PSO to bring it up to snuff for today's standards? Or what would you design for a 4.84 block to compete? Could it be done with a wedge head?
Monte
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:29 PM
To take the PSO and just spread it out, to go over a 4.625 bore would immediately help the head................ Can it be done with a Wedge head....absolutely, just not likely in the current port layout. And THATS where the Mopar faithful balk, because of the LOOK. They say it LOOKS like a Chevy head, yet no Chevy ever came from the factory with spread intake ports. So maybe it really looks like a Ford.......LOL!!!
Monte
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:32 PM
Weren't the TS heads a spread port? Or did they have other issues?
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:41 PM
The TS heads are spread intake ports, but still retain the paired center ex ports........never understood why they did that.
Monte
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:46 PM
Sorry for all the questions but what exactly is the problem with the Siamese ports? Is it just that it limits size or is there something else?
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 08:50 PM
Size on the intake side...........size and heat on the exhaust side. Ideally you would like a TRUE symmetrical port head on both the intake and exhaust side. No "left" ports, no "right" ports, but all "equal" ports
Monte
Posted By: CTD5.9
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/18/14 10:44 PM
Quote:
Or you could call Sunset Racecraft and order their cookie cutter 632 SR20 model for around 15k less.
The OP needs 584 or less, Sunsets 582 SR20 puts out 1154 HP @ 7400 RPM, 870 FT LBS @ 6400 RPM according to the website.
Didn't Best Machine build a B1-PSO 588 Koleno for a member here? That dyno sheet from their facebook says 1215@7600 and 907@6300. Even with 4 less cid off that build and a single 4 instead you would think it could be close to 1154.
Money would be the huge major difference no arguing that.
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/19/14 12:27 AM
Does anyone have any real data on how much a canted valve helps vs non canted? I know it unshrouds the valve as it opens but I've never seen flow bench data on how much it helps
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/19/14 07:40 PM
Quote:
Does anyone have any real data on how much a canted valve helps vs non canted? I know it unshrouds the valve as it opens but I've never seen flow bench data on how much it helps
There would be no data on that. Nobody just takes a head, lays the valves over and calls it a day. It is a total redesign
Monte
Posted By: dakotawilly
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 02:43 AM
its much easier to take the larry morgan approach,change the valve cover logo.......
Posted By: moparmafia
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 03:40 AM
It seems to me every time a thread like this comes up there is alot of interest in a spread bore aluminum block and heads that will compete with the chevy and ford stuff. is there not enough interest that some one could make this stuff and price it comparable to the off brand stuff and make money? I know if there was heads and block even close to the price of chevy stuff i would buy it. seems like there is a market or maybe i'm just hoping because i havent raced in 7 years partly because im tired of getting beat because i cant afford to compete with a mopar in the top classes and i dont care for bracket racing anymore.
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 03:52 AM
It would be a waste, it would be outlawed because it is not a chevy, heck it would not even be a ford so they would legislate it out of existence.
We have the Hemi that solves the problem caused by the valve being shrouded by the small bore dictated by the small bore center and they won't let it run even though they actually built thousands of cars with them.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 08:47 AM
Much to the dismay of HEMI guys, in a large cubic inch application, a HEMI solves nothing, other than to get your azz outrun by an equal cubic inch "other" brand wedge. In large cubic inch applications, all you can gain is stroke, because the bore is the bore, the chamber is the chamber and the knot on the piston is the same. They are hard to make compression in and the parts are HEAVY. A 650 inch Chevy or Ford wedge, will crush a true HEMI of the same size every day, power wise in an N/A application.Now if you flatten the chamber out, that is another story, but then it is a CHEMI or a Ford Hemi and not a TRUE HEMI at all.
As for a big bore space, spread port Mopar block and head, from the ground up design..........you are probably looking at 500k to get that going. Who is going to invest that for such a small market. Unfortunately, Mopars time has long passed to enter into this field. Plus, to make equal power, the heads are going to be made just like the other brands, except maybe you have a skirted Mopar(ish) looking block and really, whats the point. Just buy a skirted Arias "new century" block, some killer aftermarket heads, slap some Mopar stickers on the covers and call it a day. In todays world of BIG cubic inch wedge engines, they are all aftermarket. Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, Olds, whatever head you choose all look basically the same and the only factory part that MIGHT fit one of the blocks is the water pump...........Not what diehards want to hear, but facts are facts.
Monte
Posted By: 74yellowduster
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 04:18 PM
Quote:
power wise in an N/A application.
n/a smogger boggers with
ENGINE INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING COMPONENTS
chevy shape DART BLOCK
sure they have the support of a block company to make them viable. DART hates mopars they even make honda blocks.
they would be no better than mopars except for you can run right out and get an aftermarket block that will withstand the power.
as far as ALL OUT top engine is a hemi they are making 10000 hp on blown nitrometh/methanol hemis
they have been the top for over 40 years and always will be no matter what the forum warriors here come up with
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 05:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
power wise in an N/A application.
n/a smogger boggers with
ENGINE INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING COMPONENTS
chevy shape DART BLOCK
sure they have the support of a block company to make them viable. DART hates mopars they even make honda blocks.
I THINK ITS THE MOPAR PEOPLE THEY HATE MOST OF ALL WHO BASH THEIR PRODUCTS IF THEY EVEN HINT OF MAKING SOME NEW HEADS OR BLOCKS FOR A MOPAR!
PS speaking of Dart being Pro-Chevy they offer a killer head for a 600 +cu in BBC that is dirt cheap,because when it was first put into production there were no 600+ cu in engines.It was a Big Pro-Stock head and being its been around a while it is cheap and perfect for a 600+ cu in engine.Being a Mopar Racers for many years and having to learn to look out-side the box so to speak still has its rewards!
they would be no better than mopars except for you can run right out and get an aftermarket block that will withstand the power.
as far as ALL OUT top engine is a hemi they are making 10000 hp on blown nitrometh/methanol hemis
they have been the top for over 40 years and always will be no matter what the forum warriors here come up with
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 07:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
power wise in an N/A application.
n/a smogger boggers with
ENGINE INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING COMPONENTS
chevy shape DART BLOCK
sure they have the support of a block company to make them viable. DART hates mopars they even make honda blocks.
they would be no better than mopars except for you can run right out and get an aftermarket block that will withstand the power.
as far as ALL OUT top engine is a hemi they are making 10000 hp on blown nitrometh/methanol hemis
they have been the top for over 40 years and always will be no matter what the forum warriors here come up with
Ahh, and here we go.....the old "Top Fuel" HEMI argument, like that means ANYTHING when talking about N/A motors. You DO understand the difference in a boosted(forced air) motor and naturally aspirated.....correct???
Forum warriors huh.........no, how about somebody who is at the track working or racing every weekend and sees the TRUTH for what it is and doesn't keep his head buried in the sand.
Monte
Posted By: moparmafia
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 09:02 PM
I have actually been to the track for the past few years and i have YET TO SEE ANY naturally aspirated cars in any of the top classes. In our part of the country there are very few if any big cubic inch motors naturally aspirated and if there was they would lose. i agree when it come to aftermarket stuff its not actually any brand be it hemi , chevy or any others. funny thing is the wedge guys never show enough respect for the hemi and if mopar guys want to call top fuel hemis mopar its no different than chevy guys calling sonnys engines chevy. I am for anyone trying to make a mopar faster no matter what aftermarket parts are used. there is nothing going to beat a boosted hemi period.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 09:22 PM
Just because you don't see them at your track, doesn't mean they don't exist. What about Comp Eliminator. Except for a few turbo and blower classes, it is ALL N/A. I won't really count stock and super stock, because the factory HP ratings come into play.
And I do NOT say this stuff because I hate HEMIs or anything stupid like that. It is just simple facts man. In larger cubic inches, for an N/A motor, the HEMI is just NOT a good choice. The wedge is better.
Monte
Posted By: moparmafia
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/20/14 09:31 PM
Monte i wasnt really referring to you personally, i should have worded it different. most wedge guys i have talked to dont seem to give the hemi any respect and it may be partly due to cost. the part that confuses me is what the fast guys have done with the hemi. I have no first hand experience with the hemi but i have seen several n/a hemis run really fast for what they were and i have wondered has anyone built a max performance stage v hemi with the new heads that flow over 600cfm? seems to me that could get the job done? I love this site and i learn alot from these threads because there are so few mopar ppl here in my area to learn from.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/21/14 08:00 PM
I have nothing against HEMIs or Wedges, have owned plenty of both. But it is like anything else, there is always a better "tool" for the job. If the "job" in question is a large cubic inch motor, a wedge is just a better choice and that's just the way it is. A HEMI chamber, is a HEMI chamber and it was designed for a smallish bore. So when you go to say a 4.560 bore HEMI, you either open the chamber some, or you have the same dome on your 4.560 piston, that you do on your 4.250 piston. They are somewhat hard to make compression in anyway, so if you do open the chamber for the larger bore, now it is REALLY hard to make compression. Compression in a HEMI consists of one thing, DOME and a lot of it. In a big motor that just means even MORE weight, to what is already about the heaviest rotating assy there is.
Guys who build 600+ inch HEMIs do it because they are HEMI guys and are looking to get all they can from that combination. And that's fine, good for them and if that is what they want, that's great. But if your goal is to make the MOST HP per inch that you can and your choice is a 650" wedge, or a 650" HEMI, the wedge will win out every time.........
Let me point out, this is NOT just a Mopar to Mopar comparison. This whole thread was started because a guy wanted to build a Mopar wedge, to compete with a Chevy wedge, and given the rules package, it was stated that it could NOT be done, which is true. So then all the HEMI worshipper start talking about that.
Horsepower is very simple..........It boils down to how much air you can move at a certain rpm. You think the A/HEMI guys turn their motors 10k because they want to, or think it sounds cool........hell no, its because they HAVE to, so the head will move the air. HEMIs have huge ports and flow lots of air, but not with low air speeds. That is why they respond so well to boost.
So now, lets say we have 650 inches and how much more air we need to move to make that extra power. Yeah, we make the port bigger and the bore is bigger, but you still need LOTS of air speed to generate the flow to make the power.
So, you take a wedge head that flows 550 and a HEMI head that flows 550, put them on the same size short block..........the wedge wins everyday, if by nothing more than a MUCH lighter rotating assy.
Monte
Posted By: ragingram
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/21/14 11:29 PM
Quote:
I have nothing against HEMIs or Wedges, have owned plenty of both. But it is like anything else, there is always a better "tool" for the job. If the "job" in question is a large cubic inch motor, a wedge is just a better choice and that's just the way it is. A HEMI chamber, is a HEMI chamber and it was designed for a smallish bore. So when you go to say a 4.560 bore HEMI, you either open the chamber some, or you have the same dome on your 4.560 piston, that you do on your 4.250 piston. They are somewhat hard to make compression in anyway, so if you do open the chamber for the larger bore, now it is REALLY hard to make compression. Compression in a HEMI consists of one thing, DOME and a lot of it. In a big motor that just means even MORE weight, to what is already about the heaviest rotating assy there is.
Guys who build 600+ inch HEMIs do it because they are HEMI guys and are looking to get all they can from that combination. And that's fine, good for them and if that is what they want, that's great. But if your goal is to make the MOST HP per inch that you can and your choice is a 650" wedge, or a 650" HEMI, the wedge will win out every time.........
Let me point out, this is NOT just a Mopar to Mopar comparison. This whole thread was started because a guy wanted to build a Mopar wedge, to compete with a Chevy wedge, and given the rules package, it was stated that it could NOT be done, which is true. So then all the HEMI worshipper start talking about that.
Horsepower is very simple..........It boils down to how much air you can move at a certain rpm. You think the A/HEMI guys turn their motors 10k because they want to, or think it sounds cool........hell no, its because they HAVE to, so the head will move the air. HEMIs have huge ports and flow lots of air, but not with low air speeds. That is why they respond so well to boost.
So now, lets say we have 650 inches and how much more air we need to move to make that extra power. Yeah, we make the port bigger and the bore is bigger, but you still need LOTS of air speed to generate the flow to make the power.
So, you take a wedge head that flows 550 and a HEMI head that flows 550, put them on the same size short block..........the wedge wins everyday, if by nothing more than a MUCH lighter rotating assy.
Monte
I know we are getting way off the OP topic but I'm guessing Monte that you are not considering the Prostock Hemi stuff a "hemi" head? Only the old and true Hemispheric chamber heads? Cause I'm pretty sure the Prostock Hemi stuff will out preform a Wedge head on a 650 platform.
Posted By: Adrielp
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/21/14 11:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I have nothing against HEMIs or Wedges, have owned plenty of both. But it is like anything else, there is always a better "tool" for the job. If the "job" in question is a large cubic inch motor, a wedge is just a better choice and that's just the way it is. A HEMI chamber, is a HEMI chamber and it was designed for a smallish bore. So when you go to say a 4.560 bore HEMI, you either open the chamber some, or you have the same dome on your 4.560 piston, that you do on your 4.250 piston. They are somewhat hard to make compression in anyway, so if you do open the chamber for the larger bore, now it is REALLY hard to make compression. Compression in a HEMI consists of one thing, DOME and a lot of it. In a big motor that just means even MORE weight, to what is already about the heaviest rotating assy there is.
Guys who build 600+ inch HEMIs do it because they are HEMI guys and are looking to get all they can from that combination. And that's fine, good for them and if that is what they want, that's great. But if your goal is to make the MOST HP per inch that you can and your choice is a 650" wedge, or a 650" HEMI, the wedge will win out every time.........
Let me point out, this is NOT just a Mopar to Mopar comparison. This whole thread was started because a guy wanted to build a Mopar wedge, to compete with a Chevy wedge, and given the rules package, it was stated that it could NOT be done, which is true. So then all the HEMI worshipper start talking about that.
Horsepower is very simple..........It boils down to how much air you can move at a certain rpm. You think the A/HEMI guys turn their motors 10k because they want to, or think it sounds cool........hell no, its because they HAVE to, so the head will move the air. HEMIs have huge ports and flow lots of air, but not with low air speeds. That is why they respond so well to boost.
So now, lets say we have 650 inches and how much more air we need to move to make that extra power. Yeah, we make the port bigger and the bore is bigger, but you still need LOTS of air speed to generate the flow to make the power.
So, you take a wedge head that flows 550 and a HEMI head that flows 550, put them on the same size short block..........the wedge wins everyday, if by nothing more than a MUCH lighter rotating assy.
Monte
I know we are getting way off the OP topic but I'm guessing Monte that you are not considering the Prostock Hemi stuff a "hemi" head? Only the old and true Hemispheric chamber heads? Cause I'm pretty sure the Prostock Hemi stuff will out preform a Wedge head on a 650 platform.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't considering the Pro Stock heads in this explanation. Also, even though, the heads have been branded with the "Hemi" moniker, its more of a splayed valve head than a hemi.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/22/14 03:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I have nothing against HEMIs or Wedges, have owned plenty of both. But it is like anything else, there is always a better "tool" for the job. If the "job" in question is a large cubic inch motor, a wedge is just a better choice and that's just the way it is. A HEMI chamber, is a HEMI chamber and it was designed for a smallish bore. So when you go to say a 4.560 bore HEMI, you either open the chamber some, or you have the same dome on your 4.560 piston, that you do on your 4.250 piston. They are somewhat hard to make compression in anyway, so if you do open the chamber for the larger bore, now it is REALLY hard to make compression. Compression in a HEMI consists of one thing, DOME and a lot of it. In a big motor that just means even MORE weight, to what is already about the heaviest rotating assy there is.
Guys who build 600+ inch HEMIs do it because they are HEMI guys and are looking to get all they can from that combination. And that's fine, good for them and if that is what they want, that's great. But if your goal is to make the MOST HP per inch that you can and your choice is a 650" wedge, or a 650" HEMI, the wedge will win out every time.........
Let me point out, this is NOT just a Mopar to Mopar comparison. This whole thread was started because a guy wanted to build a Mopar wedge, to compete with a Chevy wedge, and given the rules package, it was stated that it could NOT be done, which is true. So then all the HEMI worshipper start talking about that.
Horsepower is very simple..........It boils down to how much air you can move at a certain rpm. You think the A/HEMI guys turn their motors 10k because they want to, or think it sounds cool........hell no, its because they HAVE to, so the head will move the air. HEMIs have huge ports and flow lots of air, but not with low air speeds. That is why they respond so well to boost.
So now, lets say we have 650 inches and how much more air we need to move to make that extra power. Yeah, we make the port bigger and the bore is bigger, but you still need LOTS of air speed to generate the flow to make the power.
So, you take a wedge head that flows 550 and a HEMI head that flows 550, put them on the same size short block..........the wedge wins everyday, if by nothing more than a MUCH lighter rotating assy.
Monte
I know we are getting way off the OP topic but I'm guessing Monte that you are not considering the Prostock Hemi stuff a "hemi" head? Only the old and true Hemispheric chamber heads? Cause I'm pretty sure the Prostock Hemi stuff will out preform a Wedge head on a 650 platform.
The current Pro-Stock HEMI, is not a HEMI at all. It is basically a "wedge" chamber that is twisted in the head casting to oppose the valves...........Plus the current GM head IS a true wedge head and obviously does quite well.
If you just saw the pic below and could not tell how it was oriented in the head........what type chamber would you call it
Monte
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/22/14 03:29 AM
Now look at this one in a DRCE head.............hmmmm..........LOL!!!
Posted By: dakotawilly
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/22/14 03:34 AM
im going to go out on a limb here and say i think theres a way to get close to the actual hp with a very well ported set of brewers or b1 pso heads,but to even get near the ballpark would take a very talented builder,porter,and a rather large investment.my guess would be $60,000 minimum. when you consider the parts,labor,r&d,and so on just to get to ,or close to that level and then any possible improvements would be marginal to none to begin with.you would at best be starting out at the maximum level you could EVER be at.and to think,you were going to retire on that chunk of change....
Posted By: B1MAXX
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/22/14 05:23 PM
Based on points from Monte's post did anyone ever build a small bore, 5-5.3 stroke hemi? Is it possible? Need less dome for compression and airspeed would be up because of piston speed. 4.31 x 5 = 583
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 11/22/14 10:40 PM
I believe 650 CID is about it in a raised cam siamese bore hemi block, still going to need a dome to get over 9 to 1 compression or so. I am not a total purist as some here would believe so I don't think it would be a sin to fill in the sides of a hemi head a little like the eagle, apatche, and 6.1 heads in order to get more compression with less dome. It can certainly be done without hurting the flow.
Also the chevy heads in this discussion are not wedge heads no matter what universe you are from. As far out of kilter as those valves are I would not even call them a twisted wedge, as a matter of fact the more "Hemi like" they keep making these heads the more flow they keep getting. They are splayed valve heads and they still need a BIG bore to match the flow of the Hemi valve arrangement (witch is the real important part a lot more than the chamber shape)
Of course none of this matters to the discussion because the Hemi is not allowed in the guys class
wonder why
Posted By: dezduster
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 12/28/14 08:21 PM
Sorry to bring back an old post.
But what about two extra cylinders V10 truck block viper parts? Two extra cylinders would help the torque and keep rpms in a safe limit for reliability would it not?? Start with 500ci but two extra cylinders to have to share the necessary air flow to support 1200 hp? OPINIONS?
Posted By: Mpetros
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 12/29/14 12:21 AM
Im pretty sure its limited to a V-8..I check rules for sure
Posted By: EchoSixMike
Re: What to Build to compete with a SR20 BBC - 12/29/14 01:59 AM
At the risk of being pedantic, normally aspirated, hemis rule the roost, if you're running nitro methane ie A-fuel class
It's all about the rules, always is. If it was "formula libre", we'd see McGee quad cams w/turbos or screw blowers and the like owning everything. That would actually be really cool, from a technical aspect. DOHC motors with pneumatic valves turning Lord knows how many rpm on nitro or anhydrous hydrazine. Well, maybe not hydrazine, you'd kill off half the crowd. S/F....Ken M