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Bored with 660hp....
Posted By: Dragula
Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 09:40 PM
Well, to say I am disappointed with my 484 hemi powered street cars performance this year is an understatement. I don't think its totally from the Hemi's lack of hp, but there is at least one other gremlin in the system that is killing the HP as well.
Between the weather and the changing track schedule I was never able to fully sort it out. So now I have it nearly out of the car....
My issue is high gear under full load she goes lean. I have not be able to figure it out. So the season is over, and I am on the fence....I was going to go and turn it into a 528, but now I am thinking 572, but I could also sell the whole thing and go a different route entirely....What would you guys do?
Posted By: fbs63
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 09:50 PM
Work with what you have. A fast car seldom gets like that in one season!
Posted By: Roughbird72
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 10:01 PM
Quote:
Work with what you have. A fast car seldom gets like that in one season!
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 10:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Work with what you have. A fast car seldom gets like that in one season!
I know....I have had this combo for a while. It should run better than it does, its just seems like its stuck...
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 10:51 PM
twin turbo's?
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 10:59 PM
Quote:
twin turbo's?
If it was a strut front end, I would have more options available....
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 11:19 PM
Is it carb or injected? What's the combo run down?
Posted By: ademon
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 11:33 PM
Won't punching it out even bigger make it go even leaner? I say sort out what you have!
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 11:35 PM
Quote:
Is it carb or injected? What's the combo run down?
Its carburated currently. It was injected previously and I have the injection unit but sold the ecu....
So currently it is:
484 cubes with a 4.15 crank and 4.31 JE pistons
11.5:1 compression
mild .600 lift mechanical chevy cam
426-1 Indy heads flowing 400cfm
1000cfm carb and port matched intake
Car is 4.10 gears
31" tires
4500 stall
car weighs 3220lbs
I had 4.56's in it last year with a 5000 stall, but hated all the rpm on the street.
It went 10.84 last year with the 4.56s and only 10.93 this year so far. Car is super drivable, so I have that covered...
Posted By: DusterDave
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 11:40 PM
What ET were you hoping to hit with it? Do a compression check.
How are you coming up with the 660HP figures?
Posted By: Bigcube
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/19/14 11:52 PM
With the HP and weight you are at now it should be an easy 10.oh ride. Where are the numbers off? Is it spinning? Dieing on top end? Lot's of different things can cause poor ET compared to what it should go at your weight/hp. With that said, it sounds like something ain't working right.
Quote:
With the HP and weight you are at now it should be an easy 10.oh ride. Where are the numbers off? Is it spinning? Dieing on top end? Lot's of different things can cause poor ET compared to what it should go at your weight/hp. With that said, it sounds like something ain't working right.
That's what I'm getting at. My Sons stock stroke 360 runs 10.50's to 10.70's at 3250 pounds and he's no where around 660HP. 
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:03 AM
Quote:
Quote:
With the HP and weight you are at now it should be an easy 10.oh ride. Where are the numbers off? Is it spinning? Dieing on top end? Lot's of different things can cause poor ET compared to what it should go at your weight/hp. With that said, it sounds like something ain't working right.
That's what I'm getting at. My Sons stock stroke 360 runs 10.50's to 10.70's at 3250 pounds and he's no where around 660HP.
Yep...... 660 horse at that weight should run 9's easily. My old W5 motor probably made 650 and at 3350 pounds ran 9.80's in good sir.
Something is WAY off in that combo.
Posted By: deaks
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:13 AM
Do you use an A/F gauge ? i found mine invaluable when tuning my car.
Mick
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:21 AM
It lays over on the top end after shifting to 3rd, and even sometimes at the top of 2nd....
So at a race weight of 3480lbs, and a best trap speed of 124mph, what do you guys calculate? 660hp seems pretty close to me.
I know last year when it ran 10.84 there was another .10 in it of I sealed the carb to the hood.
I keep wondering about the MSD box though....
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:28 AM
Quote:
It lays over on the top end after shifting to 3rd, and even sometimes at the top of 2nd....
So at a race weight of 3480lbs, and a best trap speed of 124mph, what do you guys calculate? 660hp seems pretty close to me.
I know last year when it ran 10.84 there was another .10 in it of I sealed the carb to the hood.
I keep wondering about the MSD box though....
525...... Maybe 550 horse. Before my w5 motor I had a 416 with flat tappet, mildly ported Eddie heads. Car weighed 3450 at that time as it still had the bench seat in it( and otherwise bone stock in and out 70 Duster) cage and my 300 pounds in it, and it ran 10.70's at right at 124 through the muffs. I figured it for close to 550, maybe a hair less.
I had a 6al do exactly what you are dealing with( lay over top of second and third) that I chased half of a season few years back..... Knocked about 5 or 6 tenths out of the car.
Swapped in a digital 6 at that time and never did it again 
Posted By: deaks
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:35 AM
My car is a genuine 590-600 hp it's lighter than yours but you should be going at least very low 10's
at least 128-9
Mick
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:39 AM
Just had an MSD do the same thing Friday on the dyno--swapped out the distributor for fresh MSD unit and whamo! All good and pulled like it should-- It can be the module in the dist as well--you would never think it--I thought it should work or not work but found out different Engine would just layover above 5000--put exactly same curve we always use black stop and one light silver one blue spring--and she went to work and ran great--always...I mean always something.
I bet that Hemi is running out of fuel--has an elbow or something in the system or just not getting full voltage to the fuel pump--we always see giant swimming pool filler pumps with NO relays etc check and they are just not getting voltage--not pumping "what the box says" A drag car can run good with no symptom other than slow and low MPH--get fuel straight and it can really make a big diff
China regulators are trouble too--Best for the $$ is Aeromotive stuff--class act quality and good support--regulators are very nice units but remember are o ring fittings not pipe thread when planning your plumbing.
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 01:55 AM
Quote:
Just had an MSD do the same thing Friday on the dyno--swapped out the distributor for fresh MSD unit and whamo! All good and pulled like it should-- It can be the module in the dist as well--you would never think it--I thought it should work or not work but found out different Engine would just layover above 5000--put exactly same curve we always use black stop and one light silver one blue spring--and she went to work and ran great--always...I mean always something.
I bet that Hemi is running out of fuel--has an elbow or something in the system or just not getting full voltage to the fuel pump--we always see giant swimming pool filler pumps with NO relays etc check and they are just not getting voltage--not pumping "what the box says" A drag car can run good with no symptom other than slow and low MPH--get fuel straight and it can really make a big diff
China regulators are trouble too--Best for the $$ is Aeromotive stuff--class act quality and good support--regulators are very nice units but remember are o ring fittings not pipe thread when planning your plumbing.
His issue doesn't seem Rpm related( neither was mine) I am sure he wrings it out in first gear before shifting to second, and he didn't have any issues in first at all, only appear in the top of second.
I thought my identical problem was fuel related/ vapor lock, etc,etc.
Mine would run 9.90's on a normal pass, then about every second or third pass, it would run 10.50's, laying over at the top of second and all of third. The problem finally went to every pass it doing that.
Swapped out the MSD box and that cured the problem. Had zero to do with fuel at all. That was why it took me so long to find the problem, I could have swore it was fuel delivery related
Posted By: Bigcube
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 02:17 AM
Nope, not at 124 MPH, there is some HP missing. Needs a bigger carb and jetted accordingly. You might be surprised how big of jet I have in an 1150 dominator to give it what it needs.
First calculation I assumed the 3220 lbs was race weight. It should dip in the nines if everything is playing nice.
Little more weight...
Quote:
Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3480 pounds and HP of 660 is 10.14 seconds and MPH of 133.30 MPH.
Give it fuel and air and let it eat.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 03:46 AM
Quote:
It lays over on the top end after shifting to 3rd, and even sometimes at the top of 2nd....
So at a race weight of 3480lbs, and a best trap speed of 124mph, what do you guys calculate? 660hp seems pretty close to me.
I know last year when it ran 10.84 there was another .10 in it of I sealed the carb to the hood.
I keep wondering about the MSD box though....
You say you almost have the motor out of the car. leak it down and then concentrate on fixing the fuel delivery problems My 518 C.I. 400 stroker made 727 HP on the dyno the last time I tested it, that motor ran 9.993 at 134.6 MPH at 3450 lbs with me in the car on Oregon 91 octane non ethanol 
pump swill through the full exhaust exiting at the rear bumper with the air cleaner on I di have a bunch of fuel delivery gremlins when I built the car, I used a BG 500 fuel filter(10 micron) between the pump and the gas tank 
Once I bought and used a LM1 wide ban I was able to idemtify it going lean at the hit of the throttle, it would still run mid tens at 127.= MPH 
It ran better when I fixed the fuel system, low tens at 128 + MPH 
Fix the obviuos(SP?) first after fixing the fuel delivery I hopped it up by using bigger and better heads, it went faster again 
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 04:42 AM
Quote:
Nope, not at 124 MPH, there is some HP missing. Needs a bigger carb and jetted accordingly. You might be surprised how big of jet I have in an 1150 dominator to give it what it needs.
First calculation I assumed the 3220 lbs was race weight. It should dip in the nines if everything is playing nice.
Little more weight...
Quote:
Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3480 pounds and HP of 660 is 10.14 seconds and MPH of 133.30 MPH.
Give it fuel and air and let it eat.
Well I know the carb is fine. That is the carb off the Duster and its been in the 9.70's already with a quickest pass of 6.14 in the 1/8th.
I am half tempted to put this engine on a dyno and see WTH is wrong with it. I will check the cam first as I had trouble with #8 intake most of the summer until I replaced the adjuster...Since then it has been good.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 04:45 AM
Quote:
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Is it carb or injected? What's the combo run down?
Its carburated currently. It was injected previously and I have the injection unit but sold the ecu....
So currently it is:
484 cubes with a 4.15 crank and 4.31 JE pistons
11.5:1 compression
mild .600 lift mechanical chevy cam
426-1 Indy heads flowing 400cfm
1000cfm carb and port matched intake
Car is 4.10 gears
31" tires
4500 stall
car weighs 3220lbs
I had 4.56's in it last year with a 5000 stall, but hated all the rpm on the street.
It went 10.84 last year with the 4.56s and only 10.93 this year so far. Car is super drivable, so I have that covered...
Sorted 2-circuit Dominator territory in my opinion. 
Posted By: sr4440
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 04:51 AM
This is where a engine dyno is a invaluable tool and I’ll bet I done this a dozen times for customers. If you are taking the engine out, take it, your ignition system, air cleaner and exhaust headers to an engine dyno. In a short period of time they will either have the tune up figured out or tell you the problem is back at the car. I.E fuel delivery, exhaust sytem. Or you could keep changing things until you fine it. Fuel, ignition, voltage, cam etc etc.
Joe
edit: I was typing up my reply before i seen your last post.
Posted By: quickd100
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 12:09 PM
Randy I'd definitely get it on the dyno and get some answers. I got bored with 700 a few years ago. 853 hasn't bored me yet, the chassis isn't up the task yet and trys to kill me on a regular basis. Dave
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 05:05 PM
Before you finish pulling it out find what's called a Tuner and put it on the Chassis dyno and let them get it right for you and if nothing else it will be Tuned right and you can see what you have or don't have.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 05:12 PM
Quote:
It lays over on the top end after shifting to 3rd, and even sometimes at the top of 2nd....
So at a race weight of 3480lbs, and a best trap speed of 124mph, what do you guys calculate? 660hp seems pretty close to me.
I know last year when it ran 10.84 there was another .10 in it of I sealed the carb to the hood.
I keep wondering about the MSD box though....
that doesn't sound like an egine problem. It should run WAY better that 10.80's... That's a pretty big and expensive mill. What is the fuel system? What/how does it run before it lays down?
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 07:13 PM
I'd be disappointed too if my 484 Hemi was only putting out 520 flywheel horsepower. That's what your numbers say when put into any number of calculators.
The 660hp is a myth.
And, what can you expect with a chevy cam?
But really, it's not the engine's fault, you have a tuning problem hiding around 100hp.
R.
Posted By: Tommy D
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/20/14 08:34 PM
Post a picture of your last ET slip from the track. HP is seen as MPH on the ET slip. If you were running 134 at the same ET, it would show you the problem was with getting the car off the line, etc... Just curious if you possibly have an RPM limiter on the car that's engaging at the top end, limiting your RPM. Just a thought. TD
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 12:22 AM
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Nope, not at 124 MPH, there is some HP missing. Needs a bigger carb and jetted accordingly. You might be surprised how big of jet I have in an 1150 dominator to give it what it needs.
First calculation I assumed the 3220 lbs was race weight. It should dip in the nines if everything is playing nice.
Little more weight...
Quote:
Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3480 pounds and HP of 660 is 10.14 seconds and MPH of 133.30 MPH.
Give it fuel and air and let it eat.
Well I know the carb is fine. That is the carb off the Duster and its been in the 9.70's already with a quickest pass of 6.14 in the 1/8th.
I am half tempted to put this engine on a dyno and see WTH is wrong with it. I will check the cam first as I had trouble with #8 intake most of the summer until I replaced the adjuster...Since then it has been good.
OK, I don't doubt the carb is fine, but Hows the fuel pressure, what system pump are you using. Even good carbs wont work without fuel.
Laying down in third and sometimes at the top of second is a classic example of a fuel issue. But not always a guarantee. Fuel would be my bet Until I hear of your Fuel set up.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 12:22 AM
Quote:
Post a picture of your last ET slip from the track. HP is seen as MPH on the ET slip. If you were running 134 at the same ET, it would show you the problem was with getting the car off the line, etc... Just curious if you possibly have an RPM limiter on the car that's engaging at the top end, limiting your RPM. Just a thought. TD
It went 124mph at 10.84...
Posted By: D-50
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 01:41 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Post a picture of your last ET slip from the track. HP is seen as MPH on the ET slip. If you were running 134 at the same ET, it would show you the problem was with getting the car off the line, etc... Just curious if you possibly have an RPM limiter on the car that's engaging at the top end, limiting your RPM. Just a thought. TD
It went 124mph at 10.84...
The Wallace Racing calculator says 124 mph at 3480 lbs is 531 flywheel horsepower. ET is 540 hp
It went 124mph at 10.84...
The Wallace Racing calculator says 124 mph at 3480 lbs is 531 flywheel horsepower. ET is 540 hp
Both ET AND MPH are way way down. Just a high side ignition miss wont bring back that much missing ET. ET is all made up in the eigth mile. Who specd the cam, and what are all the numbers on the head CFM, just not the "big" number?
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 02:36 AM
Quote:
It went 124mph at 10.84...
The Wallace Racing calculator says 124 mph at 3480 lbs is 531 flywheel horsepower. ET is 540 hp
Both ET AND MPH are way way down. Just a high side ignition miss wont bring back that much missing ET. ET is all made up in the eigth mile. Who specd the cam, and what are all the numbers on the head CFM, just not the "big" number?
I don't understand Why your asking about the cam??
Drag, states that its laying down in third and sometimes in second.
Until That's , straightened out, you can forget about the cam numbers for now. 
EDIT, also I haven't seen a 60 ft. number yet. That would be another good indicator of what may be going on. If its soft too, then yes, something other then fuel delivery will be the problem.
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 02:51 AM
Quote:
It went 124mph at 10.84...
The Wallace Racing calculator says 124 mph at 3480 lbs is 531 flywheel horsepower. ET is 540 hp
Both ET AND MPH are way way down. Just a high side ignition miss wont bring back that much missing ET. ET is all made up in the eigth mile. Who specd the cam, and what are all the numbers on the head CFM, just not the "big" number?
In my case a MSD " high speed miss" in top half of second, and high gear, did knock out a ton of steam. From 10.50's when it would " act up" to. 9.90's when it ran normally.
Ultimately it started doing it every pass, and I finally swapped it out and fixed the problem(6al box).
If the OP is dealing with the same issue, the ET swing would put his car near where it should run.
My issue was extremely similar..... Box is pretty easy to swap to rule out. Especially if it happens to be an older 6al
Quote:
Quote:
It went 124mph at 10.84...
The Wallace Racing calculator says 124 mph at 3480 lbs is 531 flywheel horsepower. ET is 540 hp
Both ET AND MPH are way way down. Just a high side ignition miss wont bring back that much missing ET. ET is all made up in the eigth mile. Who specd the cam, and what are all the numbers on the head CFM, just not the "big" number?
I don't understand Why your asking about the cam??
Drag, states that its laying down in third and sometimes in second.
Until That's , straightened out, you can forget about the cam numbers for now.
EDIT, also I haven't seen a 60 ft. number yet. That would be another good indicator of what may be going on. If its soft too, then yes, something other then fuel delivery will be the problem.
How they selected the cam, why they selected THAT cam, and how they mated it with the heads, will provide some more information about the total package.I have seen cams kill combinations. I dont think that is the " only" thing wrong here, but I am curious as to a few things. Ive certainly seen MSDs fail, thats for sure.I normally see them just die, or simply misfire. Not really " lay over" First time for everything, thats for sure.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 04:44 AM
Cam Card....Was not spec'd by me.....And remember I have rockers with higher ratio's
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 01:21 PM
So w/ the 1.6's you have 622/627 lift. I run a similar 588 comp solid roller. Mine pulls until about 6400, I'm guessing with the hemi you should be pulling a few more RPMs. What are you shifting at? When it lays down are you higher up in the RPMs or is it coming on early? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? I think that is what I'd be watching next pass.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 02:09 PM
Time after time year after year we see deals like this--it always comes down to throttle blades 3/4 way open - lash way too tight is a good one ( you see--these modern computer created crap lobes with inverse radius etc have the lowest spot on the cam somewhere other than the back of the base circle--Surprise!! )-7 volts to fuel pump, 7 elbows in fuel system, WRONG converter, etc
It is a rare day when it is the cam.
Had a 500 inch running 5.50's right off the dyno--three weeks later running 5.90's after the customer replaced a ton of parts he got mad and sold it--one week later in similar car was running 5.50's again--Verdict--lash was too tight--simple as that
Check the simple basics--look at the data you have from your timeslips--the answer is there.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 02:46 PM
What's the duration at .050" on the cam? LSA? I can't see the cam card attachment on my computer.
Like everyone else has said, that combo should be running a lot faster than it is IMO.
What torque converter do you have?
You have a tall tire w/ only 4.10 gears and just a 4500 stall...I'd say more gear and/or converter.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 04:39 PM
So you havn`t answered some important questions. Fuel system, fuel pressure and was the system flowed to see how quick it pumps a gallon. Wideband............will tell you instantly if it`s fuel related by peeking at the gauge when it falls off. Me, I`d do a cranking comp. test AFTER making sure the valves are adjusted and go from there.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 07:33 PM
When I saw that it lies down sometinmes at the top of 2nd and doesn't run good in high gear usually I thought of fuel starvation
All kidding aside, if you can not jet the carb. up enough to slow the MPH down in the 1/4 mile you don't have enough fuel DELIVERY. I've seen more than one car have fuel pressure(5+ lbs
)at the finsh line and those guys couldn't jet the carb up enough to slow the car down, one case was to small of needles and seats, another was the fuel line size between the fuel reguator and the carb. There are many gremlins out there, it is up to us to figure out what is wrong and fix it
My wide ban helped me a bunch
After jetting the six pak carbs up and not seeing one smidgen of differences on the wide ban I found my problem, it was the fuel filter element(BG 500 filter 10 micron paper element
) in the fuel filter between the tank and the pump
Another time on a new Holley 9375-3 HP carb. that had a .110 needles and seat in the front and a .100 in the back
I replaced them both with .120 and the same car pick up right away
Sometimes when things don't make sense there is a reason for that
, figuring out the reason is the hard part
Posted By: Tommy D
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/21/14 07:57 PM
There's a heck of a lot more on an ET slip than ET and MPH at the stripe. The whole story would tell more. If you're running a slow 60 foot time and your incremental times are similar to a 10.80 car all the way through the pass, that would tell us one thing. If you're cutting 1.40's or so at 60' and then laying down, I'd think fuel. If you had a fuel pressure gauge on the car, it would tell you a lot about your system. If it was system related, I'd think you would see a good front side (on the et slip) and then the car would lay down on the back side as it starts to run out of fuel.
A good place to see what kind of et and mph you should be able to run with your car is a "National Dragster" magazine. In the back there are records for different stock and super stock class cars. If you find an et that's close to your's, look at the MPH. Typically a record setting stocker will have a few mph less than a bracket car. FWIW. Tom
Posted By: second 70
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 12:38 AM
My 426 hemi has a crane mechanical roller with almost the same spec's as your's. It has untouched mopar aluminum heads and a stage V 2-4 manifold. I run a mechanical carter street strip fuel pump. This engine will pull easily to 8,000 rpm. 3800# cuda with 3;54 dana 4 speed. Sorry no time slip as the car doesn't have a cage. Have ran up to 135 mph and had plenty left.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 01:18 AM
Yes........gear, converter, how the car works and a myriad of OTHER things will effect the cars ET...........BUT......the mph trap is only a few feet long and the car has a full head of steam at the end of the track, so all that stuff doesn't matter. Simple fact, it runs 124 mph, so it is not making any power for some reason......or at least not putting it to the tires
Monte
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 01:53 AM
Quote:
So you havn`t answered some important questions. Fuel system, fuel pressure and was the system flowed to see how quick it pumps a gallon. Wideband............will tell you instantly if it`s fuel related by peeking at the gauge when it falls off. Me, I`d do a cranking comp. test AFTER making sure the valves are adjusted and go from there.
Fuel pressure is at 8psi, but I cannot see the gauge down track. I put a new pump in and was unable to get out and test it. The whole system is AN08 except the pickup that is AN10 and its an A1000 pump...On the last two passes, the car slowed even worse to 11.1 and only 121mph...
Valves are fine. I run the lash pretty often. Only had one issue all season and I replaced a worn adjuster and its been fine since.
I should have the engine out tomorrow and I will get it down to the shop. We will check the cam for the lobe that the adjuster died on. If that is Ok I need to decide what I want to do with it.
Was thinking of just putting it on a dyno as is or....
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 02:37 AM
I would pull the needles and seats and see what size they are, most of the OEM Holley needles and seats have the size stamped onto the side of the top of the slot on the seat where the locknut and lock screw fit into
I reread your post on the engine combination, what are the BB Chevy cam specs, duration at .050, LSA and lobe lift
BTW, if the engine dyno shop your going to use doesn't have a wide ban AFR sustem on it find one that does
There are , usually, three different fuel sensors that will tell you info on the fuel delivery(GPH), fuel pressure and fuel consumption, BSFC. The wide ban will tell you about the amount of O2 in the exhaust, 12.3 to 13.3 has worked well for me on N/A pump and race gas motors, depending on the motor, compression ratio and fuel used
Good luck, there is a reason when parts don't perform as well as they should, the hard part is figuring out what is wrong
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 03:13 AM
Some of this stuff can test your skills for sure.............guess you`ll know soon enuff hopefully.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 05:26 AM
It doesn't have a "Chevy" cam. It has a camshaft for a HEMI or it wouldn't fit in the motor. And while the cam may not be ideal, it is not likely what is causing it to be way down on power. A .600ish lift cam with 260 and 268 @.050 on a 110 is not out of the ball park for a street ride. Now the cam could be installed wrong and seriously hurt power, but it is not down on power just because of the cam grind. A STOCK cam in a 484" HEMI should make more power than this one seems to.
You also say it slowed even more on the last outing. Are you sure the trans or converter is not hurt?
Monte
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 07:55 AM
My first BB wedge stroker pump gas motor had a custom ground cam(by Benschoff(SP?) racing in Wisconsin in it with BB Chevy lobes ground on a 108 LSA, it worked way better than I expected
I wouldn't expect those cam lobes to work that well in a street driven 426 hemi, especially when I hear most good BB Chevy cams are ground on 112 and wider LSA
Posted By: Dartin
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 11:23 AM
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It doesn't have a "Chevy" cam. It has a camshaft for a HEMI or it wouldn't fit in the motor. And while the cam may not be ideal, it is not likely what is causing it to be way down on power. A .600ish lift cam with 260 and 268 @.050 on a 110 is not out of the ball park for a street ride. Now the cam could be installed wrong and seriously hurt power, but it is not down on power just because of the cam grind. A STOCK cam in a 484" HEMI should make more power than this one seems to.
You also say it slowed even more on the last outing. Are you sure the trans or converter is not hurt?
Monte
I am with Monte on this one. If the car keeps slowing, it is probably trans related. My car was acting similarly. Went home and pulled the pan and found the silver sludge. Had the trans rebuilt and found all of my missing mph and some new e.t.!
Randy
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 05:29 PM
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My first BB wedge stroker pump gas motor had a custom ground cam(by Benschoff(SP?) racing in Wisconsin in it with BB Chevy lobes ground on a 108 LSA, it worked way better than I expected I wouldn't expect those cam lobes to work that well in a street driven 426 hemi, especially when I hear most good BB Chevy cams are ground on 112 and wider LSA
Please enlighten me on what is a "Chevy" lobe and what is a "Mopar" lobe. That has to be about the craziest thing I ever heard. When selecting a cam, you go to a master lobe catalog and pick the lobes you want, both intake and exhaust and have it ground on the blank you want. A cam lobe does the same thing in any motor. It controls how much and how fast the valve opens and how fast it closes. That's it. Last I checked, those actions are not brand specific.
Monte
Posted By: booger
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 05:53 PM
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Please enlighten me on what is a "Chevy" lobe and what is a "Mopar" lobe. That has to be about the craziest thing I ever heard. When selecting a cam, you go to a master lobe catalog and pick the lobes you want, both intake and exhaust and have it ground on the blank you want. A cam lobe does the same thing in any motor. It controls how much and how fast the valve opens and how fast it closes. That's it. Last I checked, those actions are not brand specific.
Monte
Yeah you're right but you're wrong too - read the first several items on this page
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/1camshaftfrequentlyaskedquestions.php
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 06:20 PM
For flat tappet cams, the lifter acceleration that is possible is determined by the lifter diameter. The larger the diameter, the more acceleration of the lifter is possible.
That is the reason people used mushroom lifters.
In the Crane Cam Lobe Profile catalog, PP1112A, on Page 17 the F3 family of lobes has the note, "Designed to make full use of .842" diameter tappets." This would be called a "Chevy lobe", but it can be used in any engine that has an .842" or larger diameter lifter.
On Page 19 there is the F4 family of lobes with the note, "Designed to make full use of .875" diameter tappets." This is called a "Ford lobe" and use of an .842 lifter on this lobe would cause failure. The lobe is usable for any engine with an .875" or larger diameter lifter. NASCAR engines are limited to .875" diameter lifters.
On Page 22 there is the F12 family of lobes with the note, "F12 mechanical series created for Chrysler and AMC engines using .904" diameter tappets for racing applications." This is called a "Chrysler lobe" and can only be used with .904" or larger diameter lifters.
So if you had an Olds block with the .921" diameter lifters, you could use one of these lobes, but the lifters would probably tear out of the bores on the passenger side.
I believe it was Dave Hughes who first used the slogan, "Real Chrysler lobes". He may even have trademarked it.
On pages 3 and 4 of the catalog is a discussion of lobe design size when choosing a roller grind. I hadn't remembered this until I reread the catalog recently. Seems that base circle and roller diameter play a part in which roller lobe works in which engine.
But you knew all of this, right?
R.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 06:28 PM
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Quote:
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Work with what you have. A fast car seldom gets like that in one season!
I know....I have had this combo for a while. It should run better than it does, its just seems like its stuck...
It should run better but besides your fuel or ignition problems, the combo is far from optimized.
Take my car for example, on the Dyno my engine made 750 hp at 6200 and 700 tq at 4900. It's a 526 wedge with Indy SR heads. Car weight is 3200lbs with driver. The car should be well into the 9's with the proper gear/converter/engine tune.
But I slowed it down by using a 4:10 gear with a 32 inch tire, a tight 3500 torque converter, and backed the timing down to 30 degrees total.
The result in Las Vegas where we run slower anyway was a 10.26 @ 131 mph.
So you probably have a lot left in your combo, I would say a whole second at least.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 07:08 PM
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Please enlighten me on what is a "Chevy" lobe and what is a "Mopar" lobe. That has to be about the craziest thing I ever heard. When selecting a cam, you go to a master lobe catalog and pick the lobes you want, both intake and exhaust and have it ground on the blank you want. A cam lobe does the same thing in any motor. It controls how much and how fast the valve opens and how fast it closes. That's it. Last I checked, those actions are not brand specific.
Monte
Yeah you're right but you're wrong too - read the first several items on this page
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/1camshaftfrequentlyaskedquestions.php
Wrong is a matter of semantics I suppose, because when I spec a cam for ANY combo, I factor in lifter diameter. So when you factor in lifter diameter and get the opening and closing rates and numbers where you want them, a lobe is a lobe. Now if you want EXACTLY the same valve action with different diameter lifters, then yes, I suppose you could classify lobes as "brand" lobes because of stock lifter diameters. But in the world of "custom" cams, that would mean nothing.
I generally build motors with .937 lifters........so what "brand" of lobes should I run...........LOL
Monte
Posted By: booger
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 07:25 PM
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Wrong is a matter of semantics I suppose, because when I spec a cam for ANY combo, I factor in lifter diameter. So when you factor in lifter diameter and get the opening and closing rates and numbers where you want them, a lobe is a lobe. Now if you want EXACTLY the same valve action with different diameter lifters, then yes, I suppose you could classify lobes as "brand" lobes because of stock lifter diameters. But in the world of "custom" cams, that would mean nothing.
I generally build motors with .937 lifters........so what "brand" of lobes should I run...........LOL
Monte
Every post of yours reminds me of Fonzie.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 07:36 PM
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Wrong is a matter of semantics I suppose, because when I spec a cam for ANY combo, I factor in lifter diameter. So when you factor in lifter diameter and get the opening and closing rates and numbers where you want them, a lobe is a lobe. Now if you want EXACTLY the same valve action with different diameter lifters, then yes, I suppose you could classify lobes as "brand" lobes because of stock lifter diameters. But in the world of "custom" cams, that would mean nothing.
I generally build motors with .937 lifters........so what "brand" of lobes should I run...........LOL
Monte
Every post of yours reminds me of Fonzie.
Ok, by YOUR definition, ANY motor with an .842 lifter has a Chevy cam.......ANY motor with an .875 lifter has a Ford cam and ANY motor with a .904 lifter has a Mopar cam..........I stand corrected then. Gee, I thought it kinda had something to do with firing orders, valve layouts and valve events. Guess I learned something new. Still not sure where that leaves guys with .937, 1.0 and 1.125 lifters.......just [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] brand motors I guess...........LOL!!!
I just did a cam for a big block Mopar, with .937 lifters, but it has a GM LS motor firing order..........wonder what the hell that is...............LOL!!!
Monte
Posted By: dannysbee
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 08:59 PM
I am thinking the ls1 firing order would work good on a cross ram engine.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/22/14 11:52 PM
Boogers and dogdays posts should be plenty to enlighten you. Im very familer with the term and its easy to understand.
You can only do so much area under the curve with a certain lift, diameter will regulate that. It was well explained IMO
So yes a Chevy type diameter LOBE design can be ground on a Chrysler LOBE. Its still a Chrysler cam, but its got a Chevy Lobe.
hey, we all cant know everything
EDIT, Also Im not Implying that Dragula has a Hemi cam with a chevy type Lobe design.
Posted By: hemigod426
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 01:14 AM
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Cam Card....Was not spec'd by me.....And remember I have rockers with higher ratio's
looking at his cam card it started out well, they used NF lobe design and lift rate in to popular lobe numbers. nf lobes were first made by ultradyne.now ultradyne=bullet they are very fast lift rate,then also sold by hughes but engle cams made all there cams. back to the card then the bullet core was ground by comp cams? thats were it goes south
too much duration for motor size on street(and its killing compression and low end power) with great flowing hemi heads you dont stagger cam lobes(like in wedge to help ext slow side) dont like the 4 degrees advance ground into the cam (its not a gm 350) also dont like the 110 lsa (it needs 106 or 108 lsa) to built lots of cylinder pressure so it wont be a dud with huge heads and valves. if cam was also ground then to comp cams big block gm lobe lift rate/profile it would slow that cam down. and yes hemi cam only fits a 426 hemi design motor the lobes are 180 swapped from all wedge motors. id build a small 600 lift solid roller for it spin it 8k then if wanted and power till rods come out.also check valve guides for wear and vac test all ports to make sure valves are sealing perfect,also check cam for bad lobes, its cam
or that. 
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 02:23 AM
Funny how this post got off track, but I will say I have had cams in this motor that utilized the ramp you can attain with the Mopar lifters, and the mid range was much better. I noticed it right away in this combo....No more letting the local place pick the cam....Bullet confirmed this when I got a quote for a new one.
-That will definitly change this winter along with the ignition box, and maybe the intake valve size and the convertor.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 04:41 AM
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Boogers and dogdays posts should be plenty to enlighten you. Im very familer with the term and its easy to understand.
You can only do so much area under the curve with a certain lift, diameter will regulate that. It was well explained IMO
So yes a Chevy type diameter LOBE design can be ground on a Chrysler LOBE. Its still a Chrysler cam, but its got a Chevy Lobe.
hey, we all cant know everything
EDIT, Also Im not Implying that Dragula has a Hemi cam with a chevy type Lobe design.
Trust me, I don't need "enlightened" on cam design nor how they work. I have probably had about 50 custom ground this year to my specs for various motors. Call the lobe whatever you want. As long as it opens and closes where I want it is all that matters to me..............but I will bow out of this thread anyway. Guess this stuff is just too far over my head..............LOL!!!
Monte
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Boogers and dogdays posts should be plenty to enlighten you. Im very familer with the term and its easy to understand.
You can only do so much area under the curve with a certain lift, diameter will regulate that. It was well explained IMO
So yes a Chevy type diameter LOBE design can be ground on a Chrysler LOBE. Its still a Chrysler cam, but its got a Chevy Lobe.
hey, we all cant know everything
EDIT, Also Im not Implying that Dragula has a Hemi cam with a chevy type Lobe design.
Trust me, I don't need "enlightened" on cam design nor how they work. I have probably had about 50 custom ground this year to my specs for various motors. Call the lobe whatever you want. As long as it opens and closes where I want it is all that matters to me..............but I will bow out of this thread anyway. Guess this stuff is just too far over my head..............LOL!!!
Monte
Hey, You asked to be enlightened, and you were.
50 or even 1500 custom ground cams have Nothing to do with , what you wanted to be enlightened about.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 05:21 AM
Finally got that stubborn engine out of the car tonight....Stupid diaper wedged itself between the steering rack and the oil pan and would not let me lift the engine out once it pulled away from the trans....When I had the pan built, it was not setup for extra clearance so I ended up having to pull the rack....What a pain!
So it will go to my engine builder this week sometime and we will check #8 intake lobe as that is the one the adjuster went away on....After that, decisions....Guy that wanted the whole rotating assembly backed out, so maybe just a bigger bore piston and better cam and bigger intake valves...Maybe dyno it after we change some things....What do you guys pay for having an engine dyno'd?
Posted By: quickd100
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 11:05 AM
What do I pay to get an engine dyno'd?? ZIP, Nadda, nothing.
Of course I could have built a 3000hp motor for what I've spent on my dyno setup.
Hope you find the problem Randy
.Dave
Posted By: DusterDave
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/23/14 03:50 PM
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....What do you guys pay for having an engine dyno'd?
$500 a day. Well worth it, IMO.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/24/14 12:46 AM
Well, the engine got down to the shop...We discussed going to a 528 and a real cam somewhere in the .640 lift range. And maybe a real convertor...
Posted By: cudadon
Re: Bored with 660hp.... - 10/25/14 05:55 PM
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Well, the engine got down to the shop...We discussed going to a 528 and a real cam somewhere in the .640 lift range. And maybe a real convertor...
Depends on what you are going to do with the car
An 8" vertor will definately make better ET. But you may not like it's street manners.
Do the test to see how long it takes to fill a gallon can using the lines from the regulator.
Don
