Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...

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The heads were ported with the M.P. Template kit FWIW. I also tried a Holley 850 in place of my 750 Silver Claw and the car slowed down if you can believe that. I still don't quite understand that. With the Tunnel Ram, I run two 660 CFM Holley's and it loves it. I was just trying to keep the motor under the hood for now though.

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First, Thanks to everyone for the input. Much appreciated.

After reading through this thread and doing some research, I do believe there should be something to be gained by swapping to an 850. When I tried the last 850, the car sounded substantially louder. I would have sworn it would have picked up E.T. At the track it seemed to run rich even after re-jetting and general tuning. I know the carb is a good working carb. It was on my Dads Belvedere for years and worked great. It just didn't seem to work out well on my car. I will throw another one on there and see what happens.

Regarding compression, I know it's holding me back a good amount. I just hate to throw a bunch of money at it right now. By the time I buy the pistons, bore the motor, get rid of my stupid "six pack rods", balance it, buy gaskets and rings it'll be a good chunk of change. I have a 13:1 451 short block and a 10.5:1 440 long block sitting in the garage for other projects. I just assume throw one of those in there for a bit before I throw a ton of money at this motor right now.

Purchasing cylinder heads is also probably out of the question for awhile. Cutting mine down does seem tempting though as does advancing the cam. I've contemplated advancing the cam, even considered swapping rocker arms to 1.6's. Again, these are substantially cheaper projects and involve modifying or changing parts I already have so perhaps that adds appeal.

Thanks again for the input guys! I really appreciate it! If money was no object I would certainly try everything. However coming up on the holidays in this awesome economy my hands are slightly tied for now. At the same time I think part of the fun for me is the quest to see how fast I can go with this budget build. I just worry that I'm approaching the end of the budget aspect and may be expecting to much from the setup. I'll be sure to keep you all posted with what directions I go and how it works out.

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What is the cam currently installed on for ICL? I would definitely advance the cam...Its a few hours of your time, some gaskets, and a degree wheel and could really make a difference! My car was a dog all last year until I finally advanced my cam 4 degrees, and it really woke up, especially on the 60' foot...Heavy car just like yours too...try it, might like it

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Thats very close to my old 440 I used to have in my 63. Its a good build to compare too:

1970 440 block .030 with stock rods and KB quench dome pitons and stock crank

906 heads I ported and added 2.14 and 1.81 valves and they were cut to give me 10.0 and quench with the KB pistons.

Holley Street Dominator intake with an 850 DP

Mallory dist with MP orange ign box running 37 total

MP .557 cam and Isky ductile rockers

Hedman 1-3/4 headers with 3 inch pipes and a H-pipe with Ultra-Flow mufflers

727 with Dynamic 9.5 converter that flashes about 4200 and turbo action revers manual valve body

8-3/4 with 4.30's and 30 x 9 Hoosier radial slicks

Car weighs just over 3700 lbs with me in it and ran a best ever of 11.49 @ 116 on a real good day. Average et's were from 11.60's to 11.80's. Ron

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I meant to say that I only posted my old combo just to give you and idea of how another combo close to yours ran so it might help you compare things with yours. But I did forget to tell you I had the MP .557 cam in on a 104 installed centerline. Hope it might help you some and good luck with it. Ron

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I meant to say that I only posted my old combo just to give you and idea of how another combo close to yours ran so it might help you compare things with yours. But I did forget to tell you I had the MP .557 cam in on a 104 installed centerline. Hope it might help you some and good luck with it. Ron

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Thanks for the info Ron. I'm debating on advancing the cam only because I need more top end power than bottom end right now. My understanding is advancing the cam will do just the opposite. Thoughts?

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Why are you shifting at only 56-5800? A 250ish @ .050 cam in a 440 should be shifted about 1000 rpm higher. Also, you mentioned swapping to a 1.6 rocker (assuming roller), but what are you running now?

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Anything over 5800 and the car slows down across the board. As I type that, I think back to Cab's comment about fuel or other scenarios that I may be overlooking.

Rocker arms are 1.5 rollers.

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That's what I suspected. I think you have valvetrain instability that is limiting your rpm. I also think the cam is too big for that compression ratio. You need cylinder pressure and the only way to get it is with more compression or a smaller cam. Advancing the cam will help too, but it will take away from the top end. A cam about 15-20 degrees smaller and correct the valvetrain issues, and it will be a totally different animal.

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I'll bite, how did you determine that already? What's your recommendation for repair? How much is it going to cost me? Is it guaranteed to make my car faster?

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These were Dwayne Porters personal Heads, hand ported, to MW port size. Ran only on a dyno about 10 pulls, made 712 HP on a 451 motor.
I have oil lines, valley cover (indy), head bolts
See pic. I have more to send if needed. All you see is included.
Message here please.
$2850. Reasonable offers considered.
Message here please.
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Edited by Blown70 (Fri Aug 22 2014 09:52 AM)

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Regarding compression, I know it's holding me back a good amount.

Cutting mine down does seem tempting though as does advancing the cam. I've contemplated advancing the cam, even considered swapping rocker arms to 1.6's. Again, these are substantially cheaper projects and involve modifying or changing parts I already have so perhaps that adds appeal.

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No reason to rebuild, cutting them down is easy to gain comp.

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I'm not asking you to bite anything. It's obvious the car needs more low end and more rpm. Do you already have a smaller cam? If not, that will cost you money. Correcting the valvetrain will depend on how it's done. What other rockers do you have?
Out of all the advice given, you want a guarantee from me. Sounds like you think I know something. How's this, I guarantee it's wrong and I guarantee my solution will make it right. The rest is up to you.

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Just to clarify, I was surprised by your assessment on the valvetrain instability. With a block and heads that have not been cut, in general a low lift cam, no details on brand of rocker arms, valve stem height, etc, you felt that the valvetrain geometry was an issue. I'm not saying it's perfect or that its wrong and I will certainly look into it. I just thought that was an odd assessment, not to discredit it.

I know you've discussed your correction kits in the past with others and from your ad as well as posts, stand firmly behind them. I will certainly give you a call if upon inspection the geometry seems incorrect.

One last question for you. When you say "Valvetrain instability" is a problem in my application, are you suggesting that I am not getting full lift from my cam and that's hindering performance or that I am putting excessive thrust on one side of my valve guides and causing a bind/ excessive drag? I assume both. However, if in your opinion the cam is already oversized which I partially agree with, I would see no benefit from the added lift and only gains from the reduced thrust at the guide? Thoughts?

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Trent,
Please don't misunderstand. I wasn't bashing your car when I said it was wrong. I've seen too many of these combinations to just know when I see them.
I'll make you a deal. I have never done this before and will likely never do it again. I'll send you a kit and you buy the pushrods. That way we both have skin in the game. If the rpm issue is corrected, you purchase the kit. If it doesn't fix it, send back the kit and the purhrods with the receipt, and I'll pay for them and the shipping. You lose nothing.
That's a guarantee you can't beat. Then we will work on the cam.
Your thoughts?

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Trent,
Please don't misunderstand. I wasn't bashing your car when I said it was wrong. I've seen too many of these combinations to just know when I see them.
I'll make you a deal. I have never done this before and will likely never do it again. I'll send you a kit and you buy the pushrods. That way we both have skin in the game. If the rpm issue is corrected, you purchase the kit. If it doesn't fix it, send back the kit and the purhrods with the receipt, and I'll pay for them and the shipping. You lose nothing.
That's a guarantee you can't beat. Then we will work on the cam.
Your thoughts?

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Ok, here is where I am on this.

1.) I'm assuming we are going to determine the success of this based upon the following. If the car runs the same E.T or better shifting at 6000RPM or more(you tell me), as it does shifting at 5600/5800 as previously tested, we call it an improvement? If E.T drops off as previously discussed, we call it a fail?

2.) I'll pay you half the cost of your kit up front. If the kit is successful, I'll pay you the other half and sing your praises to anyone who will listen. If the kit doesn't improve the RPM issue, I'll eat the cost of the pushrods and the half I already paid you and we call it a wash and discuss our next approach.

3.) Just for clarification, am I going to need cut to fit pushrods or what length? Also, are there any issues regarding valve cover clearances I need to be concerned with when using your kit?

I want to be fair with you. You tell me what works for you.

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Hocus Pocus won't show up on dyno or track testing. For every Mopar racer who never had valvetrain issues, there are 50 who have. I run into several every time I go to the track.

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Most of its because people unwrap things and bolt them on. If you don't have adjustable pushrod checkers in your engine build box your starting off with 2 strikes against you from day one.

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Also, are there any issues regarding valve cover clearances I need to be concerned with when using your kit?

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Sorry I forgot to answer this. If you are using anything but stock height valve covers, you should be fine, but clearances are something that should always be checked anyway.

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Trent,
You should see an et gain simply because of the ability to shift at a higher rpm. As I mentioned to Sport440, the best et's are found at 800 to 1000 rpm above peak power in most cases and you are nowhere near that. I figure you should be able to shift at 6500 to start and work your way up until it slows down. I would do a "before and after" at 6000 just to get a true comparison without pushing the motor too far into valve float without the kit.

BTW, PM sent.

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JMO but I think the heads are the choke BUT the valve
springs might be weak and cause the upper RPM issue

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The springs are fairly new. They may have 50 passes on them at most. If my memory is correct, at 1.9" installed height they were showing around 180lbs closed and 420lbs open. This was per my machinist. As such, he installed offset keepers to reduce spring pressure slightly. I figured I would check them after a break in period to re-evaluate the necessity of offset keepers.

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Do NOT put on larger primary headers. That will kill the lowend.
I would also not use the 4.88 gears or the tunnelram. The tunnelram would probably run good, but that's not the "look" you're after. Like you mentioned, I'm also not a fan of slow "racecars".

The exhaust will benefit from a crossover...X pipe makes more power than an H, if you don't mind the sound of an X pipe. Either one will be better than true duals.

I don't argue that a straight through muffler flows better than a flowmaster, but on this combo I don't think they'll make much difference. I ran an old pair of 3" 2 chamber flowmasters on my car when it was running mid 11s...made no difference w/ or w/o them.
If your flowmasters are the bigger 3 chambers, then scrap them and get some straight through mufflers like a Dynomax ultraflow or Hooker max flow.

The Holley SD is a VERY good manifold...I'd stick w/ it.
A properly tuned bigger carb will definitely help. 440's love cfm...put an 830, 850, or even a 950 double pumper on it.

I'd keep the cam you have.

You could always throw some .020" thick steel shim head gaskets on it to gain some compression quickly and easily. Cheap too. Of course it wouldn't cost much to have another .020" or .030" shaved off the heads while you have them off.

It would probably like a looser converter too. You can have your current converter loosened up by any of the good converter companies.

In my experience, the electric water pump will be worth nearly a whole tenth in the 1/4 by itself.
On my car, I dropped a little over a tenth by eliminating the big clutch fan...still had the mechanical water pump.
Dropped almost another tenth w/ an electric water pump.
If you get one of the moroso water pump drive kits, you can switch to it at the track...just swap to a shorter belt and change the pulley at the track. The moroso water pump drive will not keep cool on the street.

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Just to touch on this.

My Flowmasters are the 2 Chambers as I recall. It was years ago that I purchased them but I'm 95% certain of this.

I already have the steel head gaskets. I am not entirely opposed to cutting my current heads though. Just haven't committed yet.

I will without a doubt try the 850 once more. Not necessarily the same 850 though.

The Street Dominator will be going back on. It was the better performing intake in this application.

I also will be installing the electric water pump (Direct Drive). If nothing else is gained but ease of cool down in between runs, it will still be worth it.

As far as converter replacement, I've got mixed feelings. I would hate to lose street driveability. It's marginally obnoxious now with the 3500 stall and 4:56 gears.

4:88's are on the fence still. Once I get my motor to rev past 6000 without slowing down it may seem more tempting. I was pretty interested in a low gear set for the 727 as an alternative as Cab mentioned, then I priced them out.

Anyhow, Thanks again everyone! I really appreciate the help and input you offer.

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Do NOT put on larger primary headers. That will kill the lowend.
I would also not use the 4.88 gears or the tunnelram. The tunnelram would probably run good, but that's not the "look" you're after. Like you mentioned, I'm also not a fan of slow "racecars".

The exhaust will benefit from a crossover...X pipe makes more power than an H, if you don't mind the sound of an X pipe. Either one will be better than true duals.

I don't argue that a straight through muffler flows better than a flowmaster, but on this combo I don't think they'll make much difference. I ran an old pair of 3" 2 chamber flowmasters on my car when it was running mid 11s...made no difference w/ or w/o them.
If your flowmasters are the bigger 3 chambers, then scrap them and get some straight through mufflers like a Dynomax ultraflow or Hooker max flow.

The Holley SD is a VERY good manifold...I'd stick w/ it.
A properly tuned bigger carb will definitely help. 440's love cfm...put an 830, 850, or even a 950 double pumper on it.

I'd keep the cam you have.

You could always throw some .020" thick steel shim head gaskets on it to gain some compression quickly and easily. Cheap too. Of course it wouldn't cost much to have another .020" or .030" shaved off the heads while you have them off.

It would probably like a looser converter too. You can have your current converter loosened up by any of the good converter companies.

In my experience, the electric water pump will be worth nearly a whole tenth in the 1/4 by itself.
On my car, I dropped a little over a tenth by eliminating the big clutch fan...still had the mechanical water pump.
Dropped almost another tenth w/ an electric water pump.
If you get one of the moroso water pump drive kits, you can switch to it at the track...just swap to a shorter belt and change the pulley at the track. The moroso water pump drive will not keep cool on the street.

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Just to touch on this.

My Flowmasters are the 2 Chambers as I recall. It was years ago that I purchased them but I'm 95% certain of this.

I already have the steel head gaskets. I am not entirely opposed to cutting my current heads though. Just haven't committed yet.

I will without a doubt try the 850 once more. Not necessarily the same 850 though.

The Street Dominator will be going back on. It was the better performing intake in this application.

I also will be installing the electric water pump (Direct Drive). If nothing else is gained but ease of cool down in between runs, it will still be worth it.

As far as converter replacement, I've got mixed feelings. I would hate to lose street driveability. It's marginally obnoxious now with the 3500 stall and 4:56 gears.

4:88's are on the fence still. Once I get my motor to rev past 6000 without slowing down it may seem more tempting. I was pretty interested in a low gear set for the 727 as an alternative as Cab mentioned, then I priced them out.

Anyhow, Thanks again everyone! I really appreciate the help and input you offer.

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I didn't say converter replacement, just readjust what you have. If a good converter company gets ahold of your converter, it won't be any worse on the street at all...as long as what you currently have has the ability to be adjusted accordingly. I have a 5,000 stall in mine and it drives great on the street...people have ridden in it and commented on how good this converter drives on the street. GOOD converters don't slip a lot on the street.
W/ that said, the converter would probably the last thing I made any changes to right now w/ your combo. Add some more power first, then loosen the converter later on.
There's no reason that combo needs 4.88 gears in my opinion and you don't need to spin it any higher than about 6200 rpm.

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I also tried a Holley 850 in place of my 750 Silver Claw and the car slowed down if you can believe that. I still don't quite understand that.

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850 Holley, unmodified will flow about 850 wet. A 750 Silver Claw will flow about 900 wet and have a better fuel curve. I ran a 750 Silver Claw on my 440 w/ a small solid cam, lightly ported iron heads, and an Edelbrock Performer RPM. It was super crisp. I ran a wide band O2 and a data logger. I was able to adjust it to get me almost ideal AFR for idle, cruise, part and full throttle with very little effort.

-Michael

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It's a PITA on my phone. You can do a user search for B3RE for the last year and it should all come up.

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or just click your user name then click to show all posts by you ...

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Thanks John!