Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change?

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/15/14 03:24 AM

I have been fighting oil usage in a 2d gen HEMI for over 2,500 miles. The first suggestions were intake sealing. With the help of Proformance gaskets, I am confident that the intake is sealed. Still I have oil usage, (one quart in 100 miles). The funny thing is, my buddies don't see oil smoke while following me, the pipes and plugs are a light tan.
While at the Nats, I talked to several "celebrity" engine builders and several HEMI owners. The consensus is: change from 10-30 to 20-50 oil. I have been using Brad Penn. One owner told me that 18 YEA,RS AGO
he changed to 20-50 and has not had a usage problem since.

Does anyone have any input on a HEMI that is just driven? My engine is set up with "loose" clearances, forged pistons, Teflon seales etc.

Posted By: dvw

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/15/14 04:59 AM

Quote:

I have been fighting oil usage in a 2d gen HEMI for over 2,500 miles. The first suggestions were intake sealing. With the help of Proformance gaskets, I am confident that the intake is sealed. Still I have oil usage, (one quart in 100 miles). The funny thing is, my buddies don't see oil smoke while following me, the pipes and plugs are a light tan.
While at the Nats, I talked to several "celebrity" engine builders and several HEMI owners. The consensus is: change from 10-30 to 20-50 oil. I have been using Brad Penn. One owner told me that 18 YEA,RS AGO
he changed to 20-50 and has not had a usage problem since.

Does anyone have any input on a HEMI that is just driven? My engine is set up with "loose" clearances, forged pistons, Teflon seales etc.

If You're using a quart every 100 miles no oil in the world is going to help. If there are no external leaks it's burning in the cylinders. Intake to head,guides/seals,rings, hole in the intake port. 100 miles per qt is not a normal situation. Put some dye in the oil. Then I'd pull the intake and have a look. Lets see the plugs.
Doug

Posted By: dwayne welder

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/15/14 05:48 AM

Hello!! I had a talk with Wally Booth, a while back about p/c seals on a street motor!! Long story short, p/c are not good on a street motor, because the high vacuum in the intake and on decell manifold vacuum go'es way up!!! The p/c tephlon seal will let to much oil by!! Wally told me they went back to umbrella seal's and that fix the problem!! I would also use the more modern type of silicone seal with the coil spring on top!!! So i would bet that is your problem! Of course there could be a piston ring problem to! Do you have a pcv valve hooked up to? Pull the hose off the back of carb and see if there is oil in the hose! Do sum more checking before you have to take it apart again! Keep us informed what's going on! Good Luck!!!

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/15/14 12:54 PM

I thought about the PVC and installed a filter. No oil collected yet and dry hose. Compression test shows good ring seal, plugs are dry and light tan. Also, no visible smoke from behind the car. I will add that I am using an MSD, mix 50/50 race gas and street gas just for insurance with 10.75 compression ratio. I don't see how it could burn that much oil and not soot the plugs unless the combo above is hiding it on the plugs. Valve seals are a question. The only time I got it to smoke was manualy downshifting at speed with the throttle closed. Then it produced a little.
Can anyone recommend a valve spring compressor to use with the engine in the car?

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/15/14 02:27 PM

Anything in the intake track will disperse the oil
over all the cyls... when you let off the pedal the
vac goes up and pulls the oil back into the intake
and will dump it in all the cyls and can make it look
like there is very little signs of oil.. I had a hole
in a intake runner and it pulled a qt of oil in 35 miles
and dumped it out both pipes... the muffs had a lot
of oil in them

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/17/14 02:52 AM

Update: when I changed from 10/30 to 20/50 my cold pressure went from 80 to 85lb. Not much, but, when HOT, it went from 25-30 idle, to 45. And it went from 60 hot on the freeway to 75. So that answers that. As several on here pointed out, thicker oil, DID NOT IMPROVE THE OIL CONSUMPTION!
I paid a lot of good money for a "professional. brand name" engine builder to screw it together. He wanted me to switch to 20/50 and so I tried it. Now I will do what I should have done, I will teart the #$&& engine out of the car and build it myself. I have NEVER, in dozens of engines, including BLOWN HEMI'S had an oil problem. I drove 70 miles to a car show today and used TWO QUARTS of oil!
So, here is the plan, the bushed lifter bores are getting drilled! the "expert" refused to do it. 200 lb cranking pressure is too much!
there goes the wimpy 248/254 @ 050 solid roller cam! I am thinking that the Mopar aluminum heads have to go. 540 ci. needs the new Eddy or Indy 420 cfm heads with decent valve guides and seals. What about gapless rings which the "expert" refused to use? We have a 4.375 bore, 4.500 stroke, Stage V intake, two 750 cfm Hollys to work with. Car weighs 4,175 lb., 727 w/ 3.54 gear Dana and is used for street driving. What suggestions do you have for the new build?

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Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/17/14 03:58 AM

You say your ring seal is good. I've ran Hemi's since 1980 and I ran dykes rings on Direct Connection pistons and didn't use a quart in 500 miles. I would suspect those MP heads. I'd pull them in the car and check valve guide clearance, seals and the studs that go into the intake ports. Tim Banning did both sets of Stage V heads for me and it's like magic, no oil consumption.

Sheldon

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/17/14 01:57 PM

I tend to agree but feel that I need to pull the engine to correct some other issues and overall inspect everything. At least I won't be bored with nothing to do on weekends/evenings this winter! I know that I need to address the cam and solid lifter bushings at the very least.

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/17/14 02:05 PM

Quote:

Anything in the intake track will disperse the oil
over all the cyls... when you let off the pedal the
vac goes up and pulls the oil back into the intake
and will dump it in all the cyls and can make it look
like there is very little signs of oil.. I had a hole
in a intake runner and it pulled a qt of oil in 35 miles
and dumped it out both pipes... the muffs had a lot
of oil in them

I understand that and it makes sense, yet the pipes are dry, plugs light brown and dry. I wonder if the compression, MSD and 50/50 race gas mix could burn that much oil to the point that I don't see it?

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/17/14 05:05 PM

I can understand that, sad you have to do it but I'm sure you want to go over everything and make sure it's all correct. That's a bunch of oil going somewhere and not smoking or leaving some strong evidence where and how it's leaving.

Sheldon

Posted By: Mopar Guy

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/17/14 06:13 PM

I had a aha experience whit the pcv valve on my engine ! I discoverd that there were practly now restriction in mine that whas a repop/nos 1970 and the 71 style had that so i use that one insted and it workt so i gues i whas dumping out alot of oil fumes that way. The 72 model and up also have that nice restriction =)

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/18/14 02:05 AM

Here is a brain teaser for all of you engine builders. Follow the post and you will see that compression is good, PVC has filter with little collection in glass sight bowl, etc. Yet 1-1/2 quart of oil is missing from the dipstick in 70 miles. Here are pics of the exhaust pipes. Now what do you make of this? Seems that much oil would show up wet and black to me! First pic is just camera, no flash

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/18/14 02:08 AM

Now add external light, driver's side.

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/18/14 02:10 AM

External light added, passenger side. Where is the oil going? Not an external leak in sight!

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/24/14 02:46 AM

Well, I am still chasing oil consumption in the HEMI. To review, Pipes are burning clean (see photos), Plugs look good, See this post) and I just completed a leak down test tonight. One thing is for sure, it is not the rings or valve to seat. Most cylendrs read 10% leak down! The worst is 18% (only one). See the photos of the plugs, look at the pipes, where is the oil going?

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/24/14 02:47 AM

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/24/14 02:52 AM

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/24/14 02:57 AM

You're running spark plug gaskets, you can chuck those so they don't chew up the spark plug tubes. Inspect the spark plug tubes carefully to see if they are damaged and letting oil by. If you are not running Stage V heads I would suggest running Milidon tube seals as well, Stage V heads have O-rings machined in right from Stage V and don't need the extra tube seals.

Sheldon

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/24/14 03:02 AM

Plugs look oily to me. There was a recent post of a Hemi oil consumption leak recently. The fix was to get rid of the spark plug washer gasket, it doesnt work well with the tubes. You still have yours, get rid of them and see how it goes. You are definately pulling oil in. IMO

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/24/14 03:02 AM

When I first started chasing this problem, I found oil in the intake
ports, lots of it. I changed to Proformance gaskets, measured the intake to head gap etc. The old gaskets had "wicked" oil THROUGH the gasket at the bottom. The instructions were, "install the gaskets dry", now I see that a spray adhesive is being used. Should I pull the intake again and use adhesive/sealer just to be sure that I am not still leaking in the intake? I have been running SeaFoam in the fuel to clean the carbon, that may be why I now see no oil in the ports when I pull the carb and look in the ports (Stage V open plenum).

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 12:32 AM

Well, I found the oil leak, still in the intake. I pulled it after seeing oil on the gasket with the carbs off. I pulled the intake and sure enough, the bottom of the gaskets are soaked.I have built 12 Big Block Chevys, not to mention other GM products, I am ready to trade this piece of @$%^ for the first GTO or Chevelle I can find! What a POS design! I guess I will re measure the angle and try to mill the #%^&*$# intake to try to get it to seal. What a POS design, what with the angle and 2-1/2"x 1/4" bolts, it is a wonder that Mopar sold as many of these POS as they did! They leaked oil like
a screen door on a submarine. It is no wonder that "original" engines are so rare in HEMI cars! They all ran out of oil! I wondered when I read original road tests that claimed that a quart of oil was needed with every fill up! I don't know how they ever made a 500 mile race in the sixties without blowing up! And talking about a pain in the @$# to work on! Try pulling the valve covers and intake TWICE with power brakes! POS!

Posted By: JD Dart

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 01:32 AM

Sounds like your having fun

But at least you found the problem.

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 05:04 AM

Glad you found it however there is nothing wrong with the general design. I've run them since 1980 and never have had the problem you're having. Anyway I hope you get to the root of the problem.

Sheldon

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 08:12 AM

Pull the intake and use a feeler gauge to find out what thickness intake gaskets you need

Also you need to know that the intake manifolds need to be torque down multiple times before starting the engine to insure they are going to stay tight, torque down. I use a inch lb wrench and torque the center four bolts and studs to 72 inch lbs, the remaining outer ones get torque to 48 inch lbs

I retighten until none of the bolts or studs take any more movement or torque

Retighten them again after warming the motor up also

I use a aircraft gasket sealer on the fiber intake gaskets, not on the teflon coated intake gaskets

These old motors, heads and intake can be cut a bunch of times before you get the parts

Sealing the intakes on both the B and RB as well as the 426 street hemi and race hemi can be challenging

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 12:26 PM

Cab, I measured top and bottom on intake/head gap then best port lineup when I did this the first time. Came up with .060. Now gasket is wet on bottom, about halfway up before the clamp force blocked oil
Migration. So do I go to .090 thick?

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 06:04 PM

If it was square on all four corners, the exact same measureemnt on the top and bottom on both sides I would try the .090

If it wasn't square, especially if wider on the bottom than the top, I would have the intake cut on a angle so the bottom is tighter than the top by .0015 to .0030

I've had to have that done many times on lots of Mopar V8

You might want to put the intake on the motor and then use seveal intake bolts(not real tight, maybe 20 to 30 inch lbs) to hold the manifold in place so you can get aggressive on using the feeler gauges to get it measure the best you can before proceeding

You can loosen them and try moving the intake to get it center also before deciding what measurements are where

We don't calll these motors Hemiriods for nuthin, if it was easy all of them would be perfect

Good luck

Posted By: dwayne welder

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/25/14 08:11 PM

Doe's the intake sit on the china wall when bolted down? Is there a gap for a bead of silicone? Just thinking of anything to check!!!!

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/26/14 12:03 AM

Quote:

If it was square on all four corners, the exact same measureemnt on the top and bottom on both sides I would try the .090 If it wasn't square, especially if wider on the bottom than the top, I would have the intake cut on a angle so the bottom is tighter than the top by .0015 to .0030 I've had to have that done many times on lots of Mopar V8 You might want to put the intake on the motor and then use seveal intake bolts(not real tight, maybe 20 to 30 inch lbs) to hold the manifold in place so you can get aggressive on using the feeler gauges to get it measure the best you can before proceeding You can loosen them and try moving the intake to get it center also before deciding what measurements are where We don't calll these motors Hemiriods for nuthin, if it was easy all of them would be perfect Good luck

Yea, you are right, I can just imagine the poor guy that lays out the $$$$ for one of these and has to take it to a "shop" to diagnose and fix a problem like this. No wonder I am often the only HEMI at a 250+ car cruise in! So you are advising that I take a .030 cut from the top to .000 (where it is not sealing)to put more clamping force on the gasket? and use a .090 gasket? I am considering "Gorilla snot" sealer around the ports as well. No more "let the gasket do the work" for me! Just imagine what the vacume is at 3,000 rpm on the freeway with a 4,200lb. car when you close the throttle to exit! It reads 17" @ idle! It must be over 50" on deceleration!

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/26/14 12:08 AM

Quote:

Doe's the intake sit on the china wall when bolted down? Is there a gap for a bead of silicone? Just thinking of anything to check!!!!

Thanks for trying to help! No there is a good .200" of gap from the bottom of the intake to the china walls. I have a great imprint of the head on the gasket, (torqued to 70in.lb. on center and 48 in.lb. on ends). But the oil is flowing past the gasket just the same!

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 05:52 PM

Well, I hope everyone else is having a great Labor Day weekend, mine is a bust. Just to review, I discovered that I had oil wicking THROUGH my paper composition intake gaskets. Sealed to both intake and head with silicone but POURING THROUGH the paper! So I installed .060 Superformance gaskets dry except for the end rails as instructed. Result, oil pouring AROUND the gasket even with clear imprint showing good compression into the gasket! Over a quart in 70 miles! That was two weekends ago. I started talking to old time engine builders, racers etc. First comment, NO ONE runs dry intake gaskets with high rpm or large cubic inch, (over 500) engines. A good friend and former HEMI super stock racer agreed to help if I would listen to him. No one else offered to step foot in the garage so I took him up on his offer.
He used .060 and .090 wire to space the manifold up and check for matching intake/manifold angles (also double checked with angle finder). This also showed a little better port alignment at .090. He suggested that .090 would also allow more gasket crush/bite. Next he told me to stud the intake. That way all the torque would be crushing the gasket vs. being used to thread into the heads.
Lastly, he told me to buy "Honda Bond" to use as a sealer. It is now Thursday night, long weekend, and the two largest car shows of the year coming up back to back. The second one requires a drive of almost three hundred miles round trip. I started ordering parts Red Label. I know better, something always goes wrong when it JUST HAS TO GET HERE BY FRIDAY!
In order to make up .090", I had to order two sets of Superformance gaskets, one 030 and one 060. Then studs, McMaster Car was the only place I could find that had 1/4-20 studs 3-1/2" long with 1" thread on either end. That was discovered on Friday so I had a "Saturday" next day air on those! all told, over $135 just on shipping!
Saturday morning was spent at the track watching the Pro Mod race. Several of the racers are friends. One runs an all aluminum 8-71 blown HEMI. I talked to ALL of them, they confirmed that they had to use either 3M weatherstrip adhesive or "import silicone" on the intake gaskets or they would have to pick them out of the exhaust ports! So I go home and get started waiting for my SS buddy to arrive. First I install my studs with a drop of Blue Locktight to "refusal" (as deep as they would go as per instructions). My buddie arrives and final inspects everything, one more wipe down with laquer thinner and he opens the gaskets on a clean work bench,,,,,,one is clearly market 060 with part#, the other is clearly marked 030 with DIFFERENT part#, and ALL FOUR GASKETS MEASURE 030"!!!!! CHECKED WITH A MICROMETER!!!!!!! I AM TOTALLY SCREWED!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:02 PM

Let me state here and now, EVERYONE makes mistakes, someone put the wrong part in the wrong package, it happens. Due to my experience with other gaskets, I will NOT use other brands! They are all PAPER! They WILL wick oil into the ports! But still, what a disappointment. Here are the studs, (don't let me bore you but continue reading as this becomes another problem)

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:05 PM

Just to check, I installed the intake DRY, no gasket, on the heads. Notice the height of the stud ABOVE the intake surface, note that the studs were 1/4" LONGER than the bolts they replaced.

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:07 PM

Now compare to the driver side, I don't know if I will have any thread left when I install the gasket on the passenger side!

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:20 PM

Here is one of the real problems, there is no room for a mike so I used calipers, there is just .150" of material in this area to seal the HUGE vacume in the port! I bought the rotating assembly new, freshly machined and balanced at Diamond Elkins, from a long time friend of Dan Manchini, Butch Elkins, and a long list of famous Mopar racers/builders. In discussing this with him, he relayed stories about racing in the "High Roller Club". This group would race, flat out from Detroit to Chicago, stop, then race back! His HEMI Charger would see 6,800-7,200 rpm for hours! Oil consumption was a problem! One of his buddies, installed a small "O" ring around the stud in this area to prevent the gasket from taking all the abuse!

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Posted By: rickraw

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:20 PM

Check the hole depth on the pass side. They are probably deeper. U could back the studs out to match the driver's side. Put some sleeve retainer on the studs so they move. If u ever have to remove them, heat me up, they will come right out.

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:26 PM

Sorry about the quality of my camera, but this is a photo of the REAL HEMI brake booster and master cylinder. It is ESSENTIAL if you are going to run solid lifters, or work on the top end of a HEMI. It is still a pain to do, but you can remove it from the firewall and tie it off (be careful, wrap in rags to keep from scratching the paint) without having to undo the brake lines and then have to re bleed the brakes.

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Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:37 PM

It is a lot of trouble to remove the valve covers and intake on a Hemi with power brakes, so when I did, I checked the valve lash while waiting for parts. With the intake off, you can clearly see when you are on the "heel" of the cam vs. starting up or down a ramp. Don't let ANYONE fool you, follow the exhaust open/Intake open, start to close procedure! In fact, be careful to adjust EXACTLY at those points or your lash will not show true! This is the product that all my racing friends recommend and use to seal the gaskets. Why and how did they discover it? I don't know. All I do know is they refuse to use any other product! (Universally, they are embarased to use an "import" product but universally recommend it!

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Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 06:42 PM

I use Yamabond from my dirt track days.. I'm sure its
the same as the hondabond

Posted By: gtsdude

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 08/31/14 10:22 PM

Yep, very similar to IH gray sealant, very good stuff! Had to reseal a 7.3 powerstroke oil pan and just about bent the pan getting it off. Its all that is used from the factory.

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Posted By: SSAAHemiFan

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/01/14 02:29 AM

You seem to be on the right track now (quality gaskets, verifying manifold fit,sealant, etc)

The only other thing is did you continue to keep re-torquing the manifold until it finally settled in ?

It's not uncommon to have to keep re-tightening everything many times over before it holds

I apologize if this was already mentioned

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/01/14 03:41 PM

Has anyone had their heads O-ringed for the intake? Is it FHO that offers that? Is there room within that thin area between the port and bolt?

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/01/14 05:12 PM

Tim O-ringed mine but I just sealed the intake on there so can't supply photos. It'll probably be a month before I run it.

Sheldon

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/01/14 08:03 PM

Would you mind to share the cost?

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 02:02 AM

Quote:

Has anyone had their heads O-ringed for the intake? Is it FHO that offers that? Is there room within that thin area between the port and bolt?

If studding the intake, using "HONDA BOND etc. doesn't work, that is my next option, although, if I have to pull the heads, I will pull the entire engine and build it MY way!

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 02:14 AM

I just don't buy this "it is a HEMI so it is going to use oil, put up with it". I built 12 big block Chevy's, all the way to an all aluminum ZL-1 before most of the world knew there was one, NONE of them used oil. My last one was 11.6 to 1 steel head in a full size 70 Chevelle with air, 3:31 gear, turbo 400 and after 500 miles, it got 30 weight Mobile 1. Never leaked or used oil. That was in 95'. Same engine still in car, sold it to a buddy and it still doesn't use oil. Hell, I used to drive it on weekend trips, several hundred miles on 93 no lead, remember 11.6 to 1., iron heads, 4,000lb. Careful hand blending piston dome, Zero deck height, combustion chamber work and distributor curve WITH vacume advance! Don't tell me that I can't build a HEMI that doesn't use oil!

Posted By: dvw

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 02:32 AM

Quote:

I just don't buy this "it is a HEMI so it is going to use oil, put up with it". I built 12 big block Chevy's, all the way to an all aluminum ZL-1 before most of the world knew there was one, NONE of them used oil. My last one was 11.6 to 1 steel head in a full size 70 Chevelle with air, 3:31 gear, turbo 400 and after 500 miles, it got 30 weight Mobile 1. Never leaked or used oil. That was in 95'. Same engine still in car, sold it to a buddy and it still doesn't use oil. Hell, I used to drive it on weekend trips, several hundred miles on 93 no lead, remember 11.6 to 1., iron heads, 4,000lb. Careful hand blending piston dome, Zero deck height, combustion chamber work and distributor curve WITH vacume advance! Don't tell me that I can't build a HEMI that doesn't use oil!

A motor is a motor is a motor. If your's uses oil, fix it. It's no different than any other motor. If it's sealed it won't pull oil. If it's not it will, end of story. There plenty of Hemi's out there that don't suck oil. There's also plenty of B/B Chevy's that drink it. If you've built plenty of motors that worked you should have a going working knowledge of what it takes. The fact that it's a Hemi has nothing to do with it.
Just my 2 cents
Doug

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 02:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I just don't buy this "it is a HEMI so it is going to use oil, put up with it". I built 12 big block Chevy's, all the way to an all aluminum ZL-1 before most of the world knew there was one, NONE of them used oil. My last one was 11.6 to 1 steel head in a full size 70 Chevelle with air, 3:31 gear, turbo 400 and after 500 miles, it got 30 weight Mobile 1. Never leaked or used oil. That was in 95'. Same engine still in car, sold it to a buddy and it still doesn't use oil. Hell, I used to drive it on weekend trips, several hundred miles on 93 no lead, remember 11.6 to 1., iron heads, 4,000lb. Careful hand blending piston dome, Zero deck height, combustion chamber work and distributor curve WITH vacume advance! Don't tell me that I can't build a HEMI that doesn't use oil!

A motor is a motor is a motor. If your's uses oil, fix it. It's no different than any other motor. If it's sealed it won't pull oil. If it's not it will, end of story. There plenty of Hemi's out there that don't suck oil. There's also plenty of B/B Chevy's that drink it. If you've built plenty of motors that worked you should have a going working knowledge of what it takes. The fact that it's a Hemi has nothing to do with it.
Just my 2 cents
Doug

I think that the fact that it is a Hemi does have something to do with it.

Sucking oil into the intake is not a frequent problem with 440s and such. But with these Hemiroids it is an ongoing issue. Personally, I have never had this problem on any of my big blocks. And I often re-use the valley pan.

But most Hemis I have been around have had to deal with this at one time or another.

Is it because of the angle of the intake bolts?

Just my

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 03:15 AM

I've had 3 different intakes on my 472 and it has never used oil or had a vacuum leak with any of them. It's just an engine. My other Hemi's used some oil but they all ran dykes rings so that is to be expected. I've run the darn things since 1980.

Sheldon

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 03:58 AM

Quote:

I just don't buy this "it is a HEMI so it is going to use oil, put up with it". I built 12 big block Chevy's, all the way to an all aluminum ZL-1 before most of the world knew there was one, NONE of them used oil. My last one was 11.6 to 1 steel head in a full size 70 Chevelle with air, 3:31 gear, turbo 400 and after 500 miles, it got 30 weight Mobile 1. Never leaked or used oil. That was in 95'. Same engine still in car, sold it to a buddy and it still doesn't use oil. Hell, I used to drive it on weekend trips, several hundred miles on 93 no lead, remember 11.6 to 1., iron heads, 4,000lb. Careful hand blending piston dome, Zero deck height, combustion chamber work and distributor curve WITH vacume advance! Don't tell me that I can't build a HEMI that doesn't use oil!

Why all the Drama over an Intake Gasket Leak ???!!

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 12:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I just don't buy this "it is a HEMI so it is going to use oil, put up with it". I built 12 big block Chevy's, all the way to an all aluminum ZL-1 before most of the world knew there was one, NONE of them used oil. My last one was 11.6 to 1 steel head in a full size 70 Chevelle with air, 3:31 gear, turbo 400 and after 500 miles, it got 30 weight Mobile 1. Never leaked or used oil. That was in 95'. Same engine still in car, sold it to a buddy and it still doesn't use oil. Hell, I used to drive it on weekend trips, several hundred miles on 93 no lead, remember 11.6 to 1., iron heads, 4,000lb. Careful hand blending piston dome, Zero deck height, combustion chamber work and distributor curve WITH vacume advance! Don't tell me that I can't build a HEMI that doesn't use oil!

Why all the Drama over an Intake Gasket Leak ???!!

The "drama" is, standard procedures don't work, special gaskets don't work, and you can't drive the thing because it uses over a quart of oil in just 70 miles. That fills the combustion chamber with carbon which in turn causes detonation and other bad things! Having to carry a case of oil on a road trip is NOT fun.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 03:04 PM

If everything is correct it will work. You should take those teflon valve stem seals out while you're at it before they kill your guides.

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 05:37 PM

Quote:

Well, I hope everyone else is having a great Labor Day weekend, mine is a bust. Just to review, I discovered that I had oil wicking THROUGH my paper composition intake gaskets. Sealed to both intake and head with silicone but POURING THROUGH the paper! So I installed .060 Superformance gaskets dry except for the end rails as instructed. Result, oil pouring AROUND the gasket even with clear imprint showing good compression into the gasket! Over a quart in 70 miles! That was two weekends ago. I started talking to old time engine builders, racers etc. First comment, NO ONE runs dry intake gaskets with high rpm or large cubic inch, (over 500) engines. A good friend and former HEMI super stock racer agreed to help if I would listen to him. No one else offered to step foot in the garage so I took him up on his offer.
He used .060 and .090 wire to space the manifold up and check for matching intake/manifold angles (also double checked with angle finder). This also showed a little better port alignment at .090. He suggested that .090 would also allow more gasket crush/bite. Next he told me to stud the intake. That way all the torque would be crushing the gasket vs. being used to thread into the heads.
Lastly, he told me to buy "Honda Bond" to use as a sealer. It is now Thursday night, long weekend, and the two largest car shows of the year coming up back to back. The second one requires a drive of almost three hundred miles round trip. I started ordering parts Red Label. I know better, something always goes wrong when it JUST HAS TO GET HERE BY FRIDAY!
In order to make up .090", I had to order two sets of Superformance gaskets, one 030 and one 060. Then studs, McMaster Car was the only place I could find that had 1/4-20 studs 3-1/2" long with 1" thread on either end. That was discovered on Friday so I had a "Saturday" next day air on those! all told, over $135 just on shipping!
Saturday morning was spent at the track watching the Pro Mod race. Several of the racers are friends. One runs an all aluminum 8-71 blown HEMI. I talked to ALL of them, they confirmed that they had to use either 3M weatherstrip adhesive or "import silicone" on the intake gaskets or they would have to pick them out of the exhaust ports! So I go home and get started waiting for my SS buddy to arrive. First I install my studs with a drop of Blue Locktight to "refusal" (as deep as they would go as per instructions). My buddie arrives and final inspects everything, one more wipe down with laquer thinner and he opens the gaskets on a clean work bench,,,,,,one is clearly market 060 with part#, the other is clearly marked 030 with DIFFERENT part#, and ALL FOUR GASKETS MEASURE 030"!!!!! CHECKED WITH A MICROMETER!!!!!!! I AM TOTALLY SCREWED!!!!!!!

Lyn I received a phone call from a friend last night about this thread and I'm extremely sorry for the mislabeled product!! Where did you purchase them from so I can take corrective measures.

If the gaskets are wet 1/2 way up I'll venture to say you have a clamp load problem, as we discussed in a previous phone conversation. I can envision the gasket getting "wet" with oil but the material we use will not be oil "soaked".
As for the suggestion of using an adhesive it was just referred to hold the gasket in place, not to do any sealing. Also as Cab mentioned, machining the intake to have more "bite" at the bottom was suggested in our conversation. The amount of extra bite would be debatable and I'd assume .003" would be a lot considering the density of our material.

We did discuss what you may have used for lube or sealer on the bolt threads the first go around and the possibility of it throwing off your actual clamp load vs torque readings so I'd suggest Hylomar Universal Blue on the threads of the studs in the head and 30 weight oil on the nuts and washers at this point.

There are a number of racers who use these gaskets without sealing aids and when all is right have no oil consumption issues, including large C.I. high RPM race motors.

One can only do so much over the internet and phone to assist in difficult situations like your experiencing.

Please let me know what I can do to help make things right for you on receiving the mislabeled product.
Again I'm sorry for any hardship this may have caused.

Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/02/14 10:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, I hope everyone else is having a great Labor Day weekend, mine is a bust. Just to review, I discovered that I had oil wicking THROUGH my paper composition intake gaskets. Sealed to both intake and head with silicone but POURING THROUGH the paper! So I installed .060 Superformance gaskets dry except for the end rails as instructed. Result, oil pouring AROUND the gasket even with clear imprint showing good compression into the gasket! Over a quart in 70 miles! That was two weekends ago. I started talking to old time engine builders, racers etc. First comment, NO ONE runs dry intake gaskets with high rpm or large cubic inch, (over 500) engines. A good friend and former HEMI super stock racer agreed to help if I would listen to him. No one else offered to step foot in the garage so I took him up on his offer.
He used .060 and .090 wire to space the manifold up and check for matching intake/manifold angles (also double checked with angle finder). This also showed a little better port alignment at .090. He suggested that .090 would also allow more gasket crush/bite. Next he told me to stud the intake. That way all the torque would be crushing the gasket vs. being used to thread into the heads.
Lastly, he told me to buy "Honda Bond" to use as a sealer. It is now Thursday night, long weekend, and the two largest car shows of the year coming up back to back. The second one requires a drive of almost three hundred miles round trip. I started ordering parts Red Label. I know better, something always goes wrong when it JUST HAS TO GET HERE BY FRIDAY!
In order to make up .090", I had to order two sets of Superformance gaskets, one 030 and one 060. Then studs, McMaster Car was the only place I could find that had 1/4-20 studs 3-1/2" long with 1" thread on either end. That was discovered on Friday so I had a "Saturday" next day air on those! all told, over $135 just on shipping!
Saturday morning was spent at the track watching the Pro Mod race. Several of the racers are friends. One runs an all aluminum 8-71 blown HEMI. I talked to ALL of them, they confirmed that they had to use either 3M weatherstrip adhesive or "import silicone" on the intake gaskets or they would have to pick them out of the exhaust ports! So I go home and get started waiting for my SS buddy to arrive. First I install my studs with a drop of Blue Locktight to "refusal" (as deep as they would go as per instructions). My buddie arrives and final inspects everything, one more wipe down with laquer thinner and he opens the gaskets on a clean work bench,,,,,,one is clearly market 060 with part#, the other is clearly marked 030 with DIFFERENT part#, and ALL FOUR GASKETS MEASURE 030"!!!!! CHECKED WITH A MICROMETER!!!!!!! I AM TOTALLY SCREWED!!!!!!!

Lyn I received a phone call from a friend last night about this thread and I'm extremely sorry for the mislabeled product!! Where did you purchase them from so I can take corrective measures.

If the gaskets are wet 1/2 way up I'll venture to say you have a clamp load problem, as we discussed in a previous phone conversation. I can envision the gasket getting "wet" with oil but the material we use will not be oil "soaked".
As for the suggestion of using an adhesive it was just referred to hold the gasket in place, not to do any sealing. Also as Cab mentioned, machining the intake to have more "bite" at the bottom was suggested in our conversation. The amount of extra bite would be debatable and I'd assume .003" would be a lot considering the density of our material.

We did discuss what you may have used for lube or sealer on the bolt threads the first go around and the possibility of it throwing off your actual clamp load vs torque readings so I'd suggest Hylomar Universal Blue on the threads of the studs in the head and 30 weight oil on the nuts and washers at this point.

There are a number of racers who use these gaskets without sealing aids and when all is right have no oil consumption issues, including large C.I. high RPM race motors.

One can only do so much over the internet and phone to assist in difficult situations like your experiencing.

Please let me know what I can do to help make things right for you on receiving the mislabeled product.
Again I'm sorry for any hardship this may have caused.

Hey man, no problem, I wish I had only made one mislabeled mistake in MY business! LOL. But I am in a bind, I bought the product from Mancini and they are trying to help me. Problem is, if I needed the gaskets bad enough last week to pay over $100 shipping to Mancini, then to say that I am desperate at this point is an understatement! They are trying to sort this out, but I need .062 GASKETS ASAP! Here is the deal, my wife loves this car show that I am getting ready for, she has made reservations etc. I am in the DOG house if I can't get the car ready on time, and if you think the shipping cost were bad, you don't even want to know what we will lose in hotel reservations! LOL. I did have a good weekend though, with all the "spare time" I suddenly had, she had me rebuild the commode in the spare bath, push mow the yard (93 degrees) and the list goes on! LOL. Things happen, usually when you are down to the wire and start ordering stuff Red Label! It is just "carma". I know you will help out, just get me the 062" gaskets and we will still be "buds".

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Switch from 10-30 to 20-50 pressure change? - 09/03/14 01:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Well, I hope everyone else is having a great Labor Day weekend, mine is a bust. Just to review, I discovered that I had oil wicking THROUGH my paper composition intake gaskets. Sealed to both intake and head with silicone but POURING THROUGH the paper! So I installed .060 Superformance gaskets dry except for the end rails as instructed. Result, oil pouring AROUND the gasket even with clear imprint showing good compression into the gasket! Over a quart in 70 miles! That was two weekends ago. I started talking to old time engine builders, racers etc. First comment, NO ONE runs dry intake gaskets with high rpm or large cubic inch, (over 500) engines. A good friend and former HEMI super stock racer agreed to help if I would listen to him. No one else offered to step foot in the garage so I took him up on his offer.
He used .060 and .090 wire to space the manifold up and check for matching intake/manifold angles (also double checked with angle finder). This also showed a little better port alignment at .090. He suggested that .090 would also allow more gasket crush/bite. Next he told me to stud the intake. That way all the torque would be crushing the gasket vs. being used to thread into the heads.
Lastly, he told me to buy "Honda Bond" to use as a sealer. It is now Thursday night, long weekend, and the two largest car shows of the year coming up back to back. The second one requires a drive of almost three hundred miles round trip. I started ordering parts Red Label. I know better, something always goes wrong when it JUST HAS TO GET HERE BY FRIDAY!
In order to make up .090", I had to order two sets of Superformance gaskets, one 030 and one 060. Then studs, McMaster Car was the only place I could find that had 1/4-20 studs 3-1/2" long with 1" thread on either end. That was discovered on Friday so I had a "Saturday" next day air on those! all told, over $135 just on shipping!
Saturday morning was spent at the track watching the Pro Mod race. Several of the racers are friends. One runs an all aluminum 8-71 blown HEMI. I talked to ALL of them, they confirmed that they had to use either 3M weatherstrip adhesive or "import silicone" on the intake gaskets or they would have to pick them out of the exhaust ports! So I go home and get started waiting for my SS buddy to arrive. First I install my studs with a drop of Blue Locktight to "refusal" (as deep as they would go as per instructions). My buddie arrives and final inspects everything, one more wipe down with laquer thinner and he opens the gaskets on a clean work bench,,,,,,one is clearly market 060 with part#, the other is clearly marked 030 with DIFFERENT part#, and ALL FOUR GASKETS MEASURE 030"!!!!! CHECKED WITH A MICROMETER!!!!!!! I AM TOTALLY SCREWED!!!!!!!

Lyn I received a phone call from a friend last night about this thread and I'm extremely sorry for the mislabeled product!! Where did you purchase them from so I can take corrective measures.

If the gaskets are wet 1/2 way up I'll venture to say you have a clamp load problem, as we discussed in a previous phone conversation. I can envision the gasket getting "wet" with oil but the material we use will not be oil "soaked".
As for the suggestion of using an adhesive it was just referred to hold the gasket in place, not to do any sealing. Also as Cab mentioned, machining the intake to have more "bite" at the bottom was suggested in our conversation. The amount of extra bite would be debatable and I'd assume .003" would be a lot considering the density of our material.

We did discuss what you may have used for lube or sealer on the bolt threads the first go around and the possibility of it throwing off your actual clamp load vs torque readings so I'd suggest Hylomar Universal Blue on the threads of the studs in the head and 30 weight oil on the nuts and washers at this point.

There are a number of racers who use these gaskets without sealing aids and when all is right have no oil consumption issues, including large C.I. high RPM race motors.

One can only do so much over the internet and phone to assist in difficult situations like your experiencing.

Please let me know what I can do to help make things right for you on receiving the mislabeled product.
Again I'm sorry for any hardship this may have caused.

Hey man, no problem, I wish I had only made one mislabeled mistake in MY business! LOL. But I am in a bind, I bought the product from Mancini and they are trying to help me. Problem is, if I needed the gaskets bad enough last week to pay over $100 shipping to Mancini, then to say that I am desperate at this point is an understatement! They are trying to sort this out, but I need .062 GASKETS ASAP! Here is the deal, my wife loves this car show that I am getting ready for, she has made reservations etc. I am in the DOG house if I can't get the car ready on time, and if you think the shipping cost were bad, you don't even want to know what we will lose in hotel reservations! LOL. I did have a good weekend though, with all the "spare time" I suddenly had, she had me rebuild the commode in the spare bath, push mow the yard (93 degrees) and the list goes on! LOL. Things happen, usually when you are down to the wire and start ordering stuff Red Label! It is just "carma". I know you will help out, just get me the 062" gaskets and we will still be "buds".

Just to let you know your gaskets went out today U.P.S. Next Day Air. You will have them tomorrow (Wednesday). If there are ANY issues please contact me directly. Our toll free number is listed on our website.

Thanks for your support!
Greg