Posted By: Moparmal
Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 01:18 AM
Wondering if anyone has some real data on improvements in ET / HP using a crank scraper?
Crank scrapers - HP increases?
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 01:33 AM
I rememeber reading a article in a car mag. several years back(10 to ?) that said that on a small block Chevy that made around 600 hp at 7000 rpm the crank scraper added around 20 hp at 7000 rpm but wasn't worth any power or Tque below 5000 rpm on that dyno 
I wasn't there and didn't see it, like most magazine articles, so take that for what it is worth. I do make my own on all motors that will be raced at the drags now 
I shoot for between .030 and .045 clearances to the rods and crankshaft oo a steel rod motor in a cast iron block. Add another .030 clearnce on aluminum rods or a endurance motor or a street motor using a cast iron block. 
I wasn't there and didn't see it, like most magazine articles, so take that for what it is worth. I do make my own on all motors that will be raced at the drags now I shoot for between .030 and .045 clearances to the rods and crankshaft oo a steel rod motor in a cast iron block. Add another .030 clearnce on aluminum rods or a endurance motor or a street motor using a cast iron block.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 02:00 AM
We did a 588 hemi one time with an old Barton pan that had no scraper or windage tray of any kind in it. The motor made over 35 more hp more after putting a good pair of scrapers and a proper tray. That was on the dyno, and it made just over a thousand total.
Posted By: Locomotion
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 02:14 AM
Unfortunately, I don't have any comparisons to offer. But I felt they would help and do have a set in my current and next engine. We have restrictions on oil pan designs, but are allowed deeper sumps. We can do whatever we want inside, but I never felt comfortable with windage trays, especially with a deeper sump that keeps the oil level further away from the rotating assembly. I do like the idea of a properly designed tray/scraper combo. I fabricated a crude one several years ago, but it wasn't as sturdy as it needed to be. 
Haven't had time to experiment lately.
Crank Scrapers
Haven't had time to experiment lately.Crank Scrapers
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 02:49 AM
Those improvements are on some pretty big HP# motors - Im wondering if you'd see much on a 400HP Small block ? 
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 02:53 AM
I have a scraper and a tray in my Slant. Mr. Jeffrey and I have discussed how much they are worth many times. We feel that 10 horse is probably about right. According to the power calculators mine makes 370 on the hose.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 02:54 AM
I can't say exactly how much, but can assure you it will be worth power. The farther you can keep the crank away from the oil, and the more you can get off the crank the more power you'll make. Ideally like a dry sump there would be no oil in the pan, just a big decompression area in as much vacuum as could be produced.
Posted By: Evil_Ways
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 07:29 PM
Who makes crank scrapers for small and big block Mopars.
Posted By: griff70440
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 07:38 PM
Posted By: scatpacktom
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 07:57 PM
Click on the link in Locomotions post
Posted By: jughed
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 08:09 PM
what effects do screens have?? same as scrapers??
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 09:42 PM
Screens are just designed to limit and slow the back splashing of oil onto the crank.
Thats how I have understood it.
Thats how I have understood it.
Posted By: TS3303
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 10:24 PM
Quote:
I can't say exactly how much, but can assure you it will be worth power. The farther you can keep the crank away from the oil, and the more you can get off the crank the more power you'll make. Ideally like a dry sump there would be no oil in the pan, just a big decompression area in as much vacuum as could be produced.
Darren have you seen similar gains with a dry sump and scraper?
Posted By: dthemi
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 11:19 PM
Scrapers help in dry sumps just like a wet sump. The oil tries to wrap up all over the crank even in a dry sump. the more you can scrape off the better. I like big dry sump pans with scrapers and screens, and a big bulge on the side for the oil to get slung into.
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/02/09 11:42 PM
Quote:Windage trays,baffeling,and simple direction oil catches will gain you 10 to 20 Hp.Elaborate closefitting scrapers,wide block(oil pan rails),wide pans,drain down control with proper crankcase ventalation will net you much more.Determining how much depends on the oil control factored by the amount of oil passing from the clearences that splash lube the rotating parts as well as the cylinder walls.Scraper minimize the splash oil and most componants can live on suspended mist lubercation.I wouldn't recommend it for long duration running,but it would be excellent for short duration race engines.
Scrapers help in dry sumps just like a wet sump. The oil tries to wrap up all over the crank even in a dry sump. the more you can scrape off the better. I like big dry sump pans with scrapers and screens, and a big bulge on the side for the oil to get slung into.
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/03/09 05:30 AM
So not a good idea for a street duty car then? 
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/03/09 06:36 AM
Quote:I think the key to BG statement is the proper crankcase ventilation, IE vacume pump, which will probally lead to oil starvation on the wrist pins and other parts. I drive my Duster on the street with 5W20 wt. Valvoline petroleum oil with a PCV and valve cover breathers, no sign of oil starvation on any parts in three years. I shift the motor at 7300 rpm at the track
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
The crankshaft scraper helps keep oil in the oil pan and frees up some HP above 5000 rpm on the big stroker motors
Posted By: 1badx
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/03/09 11:05 PM
Quote:
I never felt comfortable with windage trays, especially with a deeper sump that keeps the oil level further away from the rotating assembly.
I am running my first deep sump/aluminum rod/stock stroke engine and saw this thread and have to ask what are your thoughts on running a windage tray. I have always run one with a stock pan.
Should I run a windage tray with the Milodon 10qt pan and aluminum rods?
Posted By: dthemi
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/03/09 11:28 PM
Yes
Posted By: Locomotion
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/03/09 11:57 PM
1badx,
Since I don't have the resources to confirm things myself, I have to make "educated guesses" and can't guarantee anything. It's tough to imagine the "hurricane" happening inside the crankcase. But I've been happy with my results so far. The Mopar small block trays look like they would hold too much oil in them, even when the vents are opened up. A tray I bought 25+ years ago from Ed Hamburger was modified with extra vents to help. Most of the small block Stock racers and their engine builders don't use one. Like I said earlier, I liked my multi-scraper tray with screens and wish I could have put it on a dyno. But it wasn't sturdy enough to hadle a few seasons of abuse.
If you have a big block, a scraper wouldn't be as effective as in a small block because of the block skirts. But I've heard of big block racers getting pretty creative with them. Aluminum rods may permit more oil to be introduced and tray clearances would be closer. But big block & Hemi racers would know better for those engines.
Since I don't have the resources to confirm things myself, I have to make "educated guesses" and can't guarantee anything. It's tough to imagine the "hurricane" happening inside the crankcase. But I've been happy with my results so far. The Mopar small block trays look like they would hold too much oil in them, even when the vents are opened up. A tray I bought 25+ years ago from Ed Hamburger was modified with extra vents to help. Most of the small block Stock racers and their engine builders don't use one. Like I said earlier, I liked my multi-scraper tray with screens and wish I could have put it on a dyno. But it wasn't sturdy enough to hadle a few seasons of abuse.
If you have a big block, a scraper wouldn't be as effective as in a small block because of the block skirts. But I've heard of big block racers getting pretty creative with them. Aluminum rods may permit more oil to be introduced and tray clearances would be closer. But big block & Hemi racers would know better for those engines.
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 12:39 AM
Myron - so are you saying I should ditch my MP windage tray and buy one of the Ishihara crank scrapers?
Or modify the windage tray and run both?
Or modify the windage tray and run both?
Posted By: Locomotion
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 12:56 AM
My humble opinion is to use a scraper with a deep sump pan on a small block. I have a Milodon 8 qt. pan, dual-sided scraper and run 5 qts. I've always had a little pressure fluctuation with a stock pump, but no sign of problems. 6 qts. shouldn't hurt.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 01:11 AM
Actually,the tray I have in my old 440 is from Hamburgers. I guess my real question is why wouldn't I use a windage tray with a deep sump like you mentioned? I was under the impression that at higher rpm's the oil wraps around the crank creating more rotating mass/weight and that the tray prevents this (to a point)
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 01:48 AM
The main function of the tray and the one way screens is to keep the oil in the sump from being drawn to the rotating mass.There is always oil in suspension around the rotating mass,as it falls and passes through the tray or screen it thus minimizing the return and suspension of oil in the windage of the rotating mass.A scraper minimizes the area of windage and the suspension of oil it creates and directs it to the sump.It deflects the oil in the same manner as a wind screen on a motorcycle deflects the air from the rider.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 01:57 AM
BG, Jim Pranis told me to look you up if I needed and parts/advice for my build. This GTX build has been on hold due to the dyno business. Things have slowed down a bit in the last month so I'm at it again.
So what do you recommend for my situation? It's a 446, BME rods, stock stroke, Milodon 10qt, external pump, should be going 7200 through the lights.
So what do you recommend for my situation? It's a 446, BME rods, stock stroke, Milodon 10qt, external pump, should be going 7200 through the lights.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 02:54 AM
Quote:
The main function of the tray and the one way screens is to keep the oil in the sump from being drawn to the rotating mass.There is always oil in suspension around the rotating mass,as it falls and passes through the tray or screen it thus minimizing the return and suspension of oil in the windage of the rotating mass.A scraper minimizes the area of windage and the suspension of oil it creates and directs it to the sump.It deflects the oil in the same manner as a wind screen on a motorcycle deflects the air from the rider.
Nicely worded,straight talk from the farm
All kidding aside, that's absolutely right about the crank grabbing up the oil in the pan. It'll grab it up like toffee in a dough hook. Pressure fluctuation's other than ones caused by too little oil are most often caused from this effect.
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 03:23 AM
So its OK to use both scraper and tray? or will this cause some sort of oil vapour starvation?
M
M
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 03:32 AM
Quote:I use both on all of my BB mopars, no windage tray on the SB Mopars, just the scraper and added slosh baffles in the pan
So its OK to use both scraper and tray? or will this cause some sort of oil vapour starvation?
M
Posted By: earlybee
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 05:20 AM
Quote:Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
Posted By: dOrk !
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 05:52 AM
Quote:Quote:Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
?????
how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 11:00 AM
Quote:If your deep pan is baffeled you should be fine.The most I would add is the tray.
BG, Jim Pranis told me to look you up if I needed and parts/advice for my build. This GTX build has been on hold due to the dyno business. Things have slowed down a bit in the last month so I'm at it again.
So what do you recommend for my situation? It's a 446, BME rods, stock stroke, Milodon 10qt, external pump, should be going 7200 through the lights.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 01:16 PM
Thanks!
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 05:09 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
?????
how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?
The theory is it removes oil from the air slinging around with the crank, this oily air is what also lubricates the cylinder walls and rod small end because there is no preasurized lube up there. It would take a lot of research dollars to determine how much oil has to remain and how much you can remove. Aparently the factory thought windage trays were usefull in both big and small block engine.
BTW I have a miloden windage try similar to the factory SB one except it has twice as many louvers and is a little thicker.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/04/09 07:38 PM
If you could effectively get rid of all the oil from the crank its self the waste oil from the cam and or lifters would oil everything just fine on its own when slung off the crank. When you look at modern high power builds the cam is in a tunnel completely separated from the crank so no oil from the valve train hits the crank. Then every thing you can imagine is done to get the rest off the crank. Even with coated pins they'll still EDM a hole from the rod journal up the beam of the rod to feed the pin a couple drops of oil. Prostockers are still finding better ways to get rid of windage and still finding power from it. I've seen one local prostockers dry sump system pull 21+ vac with no vac pump, that's just the scavenge sections pulling that. They've gotten so good at getting rid of oil, they have to put some back, but they can put right where it's needed. When I look at my own motors and ones way better than mine, they're still primitive by comparison when it comes to oil control. I know it's not for the street, but the manufacturers are doing similar stuff now with dry sumps, sprayers, coatings, and trays/scrapers so why not take as much advantage as you have patience and budget to. For me it's "free" power since it doesn't require stronger parts, more spring, or compression to make. There's a video somewhere that shows a BBC with a clear pan wadding up oil on the crank. I'll post it when I find it.
Posted By: dOrk !
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/05/09 04:04 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
?????
how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?
The theory is it removes oil from the air slinging around with the crank, this oily air is what also lubricates the cylinder walls and rod small end because there is no preasurized lube up there. It would take a lot of research dollars to determine how much oil has to remain and how much you can remove. Aparently the factory thought windage trays were usefull in both big and small block engine.
BTW I have a miloden windage try similar to the factory SB one except it has twice as many louvers and is a little thicker.
I am not suggesting getting rid of ALL the oil coming off the main and rod areas of the crank ... just on the lower areas.
And as far as the oil coming off the heads, cam and lifters ? ..... I seem to remember a shop doing a test of plumbling all that oil directly with baffles, hoses and a tray ....and the HP savings was worth that effort.
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? - 01/05/09 01:45 PM
Oil passing from the cam as well as residual oil draining from the heads as well as oil passing from the rod to rod side clearence will be more than enough lube the cylinders and wrist pins. I agree with Darren's thoughts of gaining HP running a tight scraper and cleaning the excessive oil from the rotationg assembly as it passes through the heavy concentration of oil(bottom half of rotation) where it has more chance of picking up more oil that is returning to the pan as well as drawing from the sump,even with a tray the oil gathers heavely on it before passing to the sump.