Moparts
spray bar oiling
Posted By: brownout
spray bar oiling - 07/15/14 07:19 PM
Ok So I am interested in getting a set of individual shaft rockers (t&d)for my original b1 heads. Is spray bar oiling through the valve covers going to be enough for the primary source of oiling to the pushrod cups and rockers? valve spring pressures from 300-350 on the seat and up to 850-900 open at the most. This is going to be a turbo motor and will probably see 8,000 to 8,500 rpm at the highest. Thing is I don't want to pay to have the lifter bores to be bushed and I already have a set of new crane lifters. Right now I have the common shaft t&d setup should I just stick with this?
Thanks, Cody
Posted By: Airwoofer
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/15/14 07:25 PM
My B1 499 has both pushrod oiling and spray bar. They got the oil for the spray bars from the side of the block. When I put in the 440-1 540 (also has pushrod oiling) I think I will use the spray bar oiling valve covers on it too. Why not? 2 seperate oil sources and the springs get a little cooling.
The pushrod oil supplies the needle on the shaft and also for the rollers on the T&D.
Edit: I was looking at the valve covers last night. The spray bar is over the pushrods/rockers and I have no idea how that would help as the adjusters are sockets and shrouded by the 1.7 T&D rockers.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/15/14 08:41 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I had several people tell me that spray bar oiling would work just fine for my Jesel setup but we started to see burned up pushrods after just a few dyno pulls. I added pushrod oiling and haven't had any problems since.
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/15/14 08:46 PM
We use spray bar oiling on all our Indy heads with the Jesel rockers with no problems,
Posted By: sasquatch
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/15/14 09:07 PM
I think that the turbo might have something to say here. It puts a lot of stress on the exhaust pushrods that I believe might lead you to burning some up. Just a thought.
Todd
My
.....with B1s and turbo, I'd be wanting pushrod oiling as well. Spraying the springs does provide oiling to the pushrod to some degree, but nothing like a dedicated oil thru pushrod or shaft pressurized oiling. I'd be more comfortable knowing the valve spring are staying cool with the spray bar, and the B1s are oiling the cups with pushrods or shafts.. B1s like and need the oiling in my opinion.
Posted By: brownout
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 06:47 AM
yeah this is kind of what I expected to hear. Think there is any issues with just running the t&d common shaft rockers that I have and oiling through the shaft. I am sure people have ran them at that open pressure and beyond but are they reliable?
thanks for the info and experience everyone.
Posted By: brownout
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 05:41 PM
Anybody with experience and lots of run time with the common shaft t and d rockers for the b1 heads?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 06:29 PM
Quote:
Anybody with experience and lots of run time with the common shaft t and d rockers for the b1 heads?
I've got T&D common shaft rockers on my W-2s but I
went with the short shafts on my B1 M/C heads.. I never
ran it though and sold it... but the common shafts on
the W-2s worked fine with just the stock oiling(up
thru the head)... ran them for years like that.. I
did change over to push rod oiling on my 416 when I
put the W-2s on it.. and I plugged the head oil ports
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 06:40 PM
I'm a fan of pushrod oiling, can't think of a reason to need both.
Posted By: brownout
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 06:51 PM
Thanks I understand it's either pushrod oiling or through the shaft. Just wondering if people experiences with the common shaft setup like mr pbodys. Thanks and what spring pressure did you run with you w-2 setup
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 07:07 PM
Quote:
Thanks I understand it's either pushrod oiling or through the shaft. Just wondering if people experiences with the common shaft setup like mr pbodys. Thanks and what spring pressure did you run with you w-2 setup
Roller cam and seat is 270# and 680# open.. I run
T&Ds on all of my engines but only have the common shaft
on the W-2s.. my W-9 has the short shafts and I run
325# seat and just short of 900# open.. never had
any issue with any T&D breaking or anything like that
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 08:07 PM
IMO the common shaft stuff is ok to a point. When you get into those kind of spring pressure I don't think I would go that way for sure. I have used common shaft stuff with open pressure around 850 not sure I would want to go further than that. From my experience anything above that and you will start to see issues with breakage. While I do not have any first hand experience I have seen it on a number of other combos. When you throw in the turbo think then IMO you need to go with the best possible parts and methods. The added pressure/heat on the exhaust side would want me to go wit paired shaft set up and pushrod oiling. IMO the only thing spray bars are good for is valvespring cooling and some added life there. Not to use as a primary method of oiling a pushrod cup.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/16/14 09:41 PM
Quote:
IMO the common shaft stuff is ok to a point. When you get into those kind of spring pressure I don't think I would go that way for sure. I have used common shaft stuff with open pressure around 850 not sure I would want to go further than that. From my experience anything above that and you will start to see issues with breakage. While I do not have any first hand experience I have seen it on a number of other combos. When you throw in the turbo think then IMO you need to go with the best possible parts and methods. The added pressure/heat on the exhaust side would want me to go wit paired shaft set up and pushrod oiling. IMO the only thing spray bars are good for is valvespring cooling and some added life there. Not to use as a primary method of oiling a pushrod cup.
Myself.. I would never use the spray bars as the
means of oiling the rockers and push rods.. to me
its too hard to get the oil in the rocker and shaft..
it would only gets what might drip in... granted the
T&D rockers use needle bearings on the shaft and dont
require much oil to keep them happy... this is just
my opinion but the spray bars work great for cooling
the springs... the T&D rockers I have, have a hole
going both directions from the shaft(the common shaft)
and the oil drips off the roller tip and down the
springs to carry heat away then the other hole oils
the push rod tips and runs down the push rod... I
dont know what kind of spring pressure he will be
running with the turbo set up but on the common shaft
system you have just the 5 bolts(3/8" grade 8) but
have a farther span between the bolts vs the 3 bolts
per pair on the short shaft system and they are right
next to the rocker..... just something to think about..
here's a pic of the short shaft style
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/17/14 06:13 PM
I have run the Spray Bar oiling systems on all of my engines with ZERO problems.
Posted By: avenger572
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/19/14 02:17 PM
12 years for me with spray bar oiling on 572-13 heads ,t&d rockers ,800+spring presure and alot of street use as well. Oh and 1200 + passes at the track
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/19/14 03:22 PM
The spray bars provide plenty of oil and the rocker movement throws it everywhere.Needle bearing rockers on short shafts are like roller lifters and can live with mist lubercation.With the spray under pressure and movement the entire valve train becomes saturated with oil.With any common shaft we would recommend through shaft oiling.thumb:
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/19/14 03:25 PM
Bob... I'm gonna sent you a PM on some parts
Posted By: go green
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/19/14 04:12 PM
First off , you are starting a turbo build and you say the words "don't want to pay for " LOL
1- Take what ever you think your going spend and double it .
2- leave the engine alone until the end , the engine is the easiest part of the build .
3- Mount the bare engine and heads and buy the turbo stuff to start fabrication , ( turbo , gates , charge tube , hot and cold side exhaust )don't buy a single engine internal until you are pretty much done the fab work on the car ( cage , rear end , transmittion )
4- take a picture of how much hair and what color it is before and after the build.
Don't do spray bar oiling , its just a silly way to oil anything . Push rod oiling is worth the money and is obviously far superior to spray , anyone who says otherwise is not correct .Valve train is the one department that should have no compromise for quality and reliability . I just spent about $9000 for my valve train , reliability comes at a cost .
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/19/14 05:23 PM
Ryan J used to call it "spray and pray", but i'v been doin it on my 408 for the last 9 yrs without issue. my program is much smaller than yours thou at 600hp n/a level and 600# open pressure. some track and many street miles.
Posted By: sasquatch
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/19/14 08:09 PM
We have used spray bar oiling in many Indy wedge motors with success. Big cams and big springs, it is the TURBO being used in this application that would concern me. Heck we even custom designed some spray bars for the INdy 613X heads. They actually sprayed UP at the pushrod cups before some of the lifter options of today were available.
Todd
Posted By: brownout
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/21/14 10:11 PM
Thanks everyone for their opinions and experiences. I have decided to go with pushrod oiling and individual shaft t and d rockers on the b1 heads I may also put a restrictive in the spray bars and run those for extra oil. Te next question and I will probably start another post is what lifters?
I have an Indy maxx block and was looking at the crane cams ultra pro roller lifters part number 66550-16 I was assured by crane that no lifter bore bushings are required to run these lifters with pushrod oiling. Any body run these lifters an how are they set up as far as bushings or no bushings.
Thanks you cody
Posted By: AndyF
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/21/14 11:06 PM
Is your block drilled for oil pressure to the lifters? I'm pretty sure that is an extra cost option on the Indy blocks.
Posted By: brownout
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/21/14 11:22 PM
They have the option to bush them at an extra cost. But no it is just a standard Indy block
Posted By: Saskabusa
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/22/14 08:03 AM
I have a 572 with spray bar oiling.
The heads and block are Indy. 572-13 heads with Jesel rockers.
I had a lot of problems with oil getting past the valve seals and causing the motor to produce a lot of smoke.
The problem was finally resolved but it took some time. This really soured me to the spray bars.
If I could do the whole motor over I would have started out with a pushrod set up.
Posted By: Ck[FIN]
Re: spray bar oiling - 07/22/14 09:30 AM
My R5P7 came with pushrod oiling AND spray bar oiling. It also has spray rods between springs that spray oil horizontally, cools the springs. I think that helps alot to keep the spring pressure in 500mile race.