Moparts

AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS

Posted By: deaks

AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/15/14 05:14 PM

Just wondered what others were setting these at.
I've got mine at 8 from full tight on comp and 13 from full tight on rebound. This was on a reasonable track with SS springs and calvert 90/10 fronts. Ran a best 1.41 at 10.26 on a fairly warm day.
I'd like to get into consistent 1.30's if i could, so any and all advice is welcome.
Mick
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/15/14 07:02 PM

It is literally all about your car and what it wants. No one else's car is going to have the exact same settings as your would. The shock settings in many cars that do enough testing and racing might have a setting for a certain track at a certain time of the day and change later in the day or when they go to another track. I've worked on cars where I changed the shock setting every pass. You have to play with them and see what the car does and see what it likes. It will be a totally different set up on a ladder bar then a 4 link.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/15/14 07:10 PM

Quote:

It is literally all about your car and what it wants. No one else's car is going to have the exact same settings as your would. The shock settings in many cars that do enough testing and racing might have a setting for a certain track at a certain time of the day and change later in the day or when they go to another track. I've worked on cars where I changed the shock setting every pass. You have to play with them and see what the car does and see what it likes. It will be a totally different set up on a ladder bar then a 4 link.



.. just different weights and torque will
be way different on settings let alone the type of
suspension
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/15/14 09:02 PM

I just thought someone might chime in with a similar set up. I've read stuff on the net, where people are running the comp on full tight and the extension really loose. My old 9 way ranchos were simple, most of the time they were on either 8 or 9.
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/15/14 10:07 PM

Quote:

I just thought someone might chime in with a similar set up. I've read stuff on the net, where people are running the comp on full tight and the extension really loose. My old 9 way ranchos were simple, most of the time they were on either 8 or 9.



The closer you get to that will plant the tire harder and keep it there but you can also go too far and it will actually start slowing you down and making the car less consistant.
Posted By: toddd

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 02:27 AM

Get someone to vid your launch and post the vid.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 05:01 AM

Quote:

Get someone to vid your launch and post the vid.



This is a very good way to see what is REALLY happening
and not just a guess
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 01:03 PM

How consistent are the 60 fts? If they are real close, your shock settings might be very close. If they are all over the place, like more than .01 or .02 apart, then due to the SS springs I would start at full tight on extension and see if it hooks at the hit. You need video to watch, and go frame by frame to see what is happening. If it hooks well at the hit but spins later, you might still not have enough shock control for the high leverage of the SS springs. If it spins, then hooks, start loosening them.
What does the rear shackle angle and length look like? If they are long, and angled at a 45 degree angle toward the rear, they will really increase the separation at the hit.
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 04:54 PM

They vary more than that, leaf springs are clamped on the front, factory shackles angled as per the mopar manuals. I have just recently moved the shocks in front of the axle and vertical. I tightened the extension and comp 4 clicks on sunday and went from 1.43 to 1.41.
Why do you say full tight on ext and what would you do with the comp with that setting ?
I thought the looser the ext, the tighter the comp to keep the tyres planted.
Thanks Mick
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 05:02 PM

Quote:

They vary more than that, leaf springs are clamped on the front, factory shackles angled as per the mopar manuals. I have just recently moved the shocks in front of the axle and vertical. I tightened the extension and comp 4 clicks on sunday and went from 1.43 to 1.41.
Why do you say full tight on ext and what would you do with the comp with that setting ?
I thought the looser the ext, the tighter the comp to keep the tyres planted.
Thanks Mick



Moving the shocks just changed the amount of force and the speed the shock works at as well as changing the angle of the shock. More than likely the same results could have been had by just changing the adjustment on the shock in the location they were in. The adjustments on the shocks are just like jets or idle mixtures on a carb. You can use them to tune the way the car works. Every time you make an adjustment it will have an affect on the car one way or the other. When you move the shock to the front of the axle the load on the shock will increase compared to it being mounted behind the axle. There for to have the same type of suspension set up you would have to tighten the setting to achieve the same result. Is it possible to get video of the car launching?
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 05:05 PM

Sliders really helped controll the rear on my dart but not sure on the ss springs which I changed to Calvert monos years ago...........
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 05:27 PM

Here is vid but it may not be very clear because it was a spectator i'm in the orange Dart at 3.20.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2AaKaygn72o
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 06:12 PM

What torsion bars and shocks do you have up front? Looks to me like you could use a little loser front end to help pitch rotate the car (weight transfer). The tire is spinning then hooking from what I could tell. Very nice car by the way! I would loosen the extension on the rear shocks and leave the compression and see what that does. What RPM are you leaving at?
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/16/14 07:49 PM

I have 6 cyl torsion bars, calvert 90/10 shocks, i flash stall it from around 2500 rpm, converter is UCC 5000 stall. Tyres are 31 x 10.5 hoosiers with tubes.
I didn't think it was clear enough to tell.
Mick
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/17/14 10:37 PM

Right, i've been looking at my settings, on the vid posted, i had the extension set on 24 from full soft out of a possible 40 clicks. On the afco instructions, for heavy door cars slower than 9.90 at the faster end it says 6-8 clicks from full soft, i've moved it to 8 for next time out.
On the comp i had 14 clicks from full soft out of a possible 24.
Afco says for 12-16 from full soft, so i've moved them to 16.
So basically, the comp is around the same but i've loosened the ext 8 clicks.
Mick
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/17/14 11:10 PM

Quote:

Right, i've been looking at my settings, on the vid posted, i had the extension set on 24 from full soft out of a possible 40 clicks. On the afco instructions, for heavy door cars slower than 9.90 at the faster end it says 6-8 clicks from full soft, i've moved it to 8 for next time out.
On the comp i had 14 clicks from full soft out of a possible 24.
Afco says for 12-16 from full soft, so i've moved them to 16.
So basically, the comp is around the same but i've loosened the ext 8 clicks.
Mick



I think that will help from the video I saw but you will notice a difference good or bad when you go out. Let us know what happens.
Posted By: toddd

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/17/14 11:47 PM

Doesn't look that bad, hard to tell though.

Put a wide white stripe on the tire and a mark on the quarter panel too.

I also rub white shoe polish around the circumference of the tire to see what it looks like at the hit and during acceleration.

Keep picking away at it, you'll get it.
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/17/14 11:54 PM

My phone contract is up, they're going to give me a new phone with a better deal. The new one has frame by frame playback. Just need a friend with a steady hand. Lol
Thanks for sll the tips
Mick
Posted By: 440W8 Duster

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 12:28 AM

But if the shocks are mounted in front of the diff. don't that change how the shock reacts? Also if you make any shock adjustments you need to make them bye 4 clicks at a time to notice to see if it works.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 01:31 AM

Quote:

But if the shocks are mounted in front of the diff. don't that change how the shock reacts? Also if you make any shock adjustments you need to make them bye 4 clicks at a time to notice to see if it works.



Yes it does change the way the shock reacts due to the
difference in leverage... and yes if he has 40 points
of adjustment then he can go 4 or 5 clinks at a time
to see a change
Posted By: 440W8 Duster

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 01:46 AM

That's what I was told by Eric Staffold(spell check) at Afco. Mine are set at 24 from full soft rear and 26 from full soft in front for a good track and 6-10 on a bad track.

http://youtu.be/SZmD3i_0bek?list=UULW0DiOvUx5TJJIEelJ2a7w
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 02:10 PM

With the leverage of the SS springs to start with, the shocks probably were close to too weak at the tightest setting, then when you moved the shocks forward that reduced the control maybe as much as 30 percent.
It is hard to tell, but I see a lot of separation at the rear, then spin a short ways out which is probably why the front drops back down so fast. I would put the shocks back where they were then try them full stiff like I suggested earlier. If things improve at those settings, then get worse as you loosen them, send them in for stiffer valveing.
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 02:46 PM

Surely if it's spinning after the hit, i just need to tighten the compression up more ? , or are you saying i should slow the seperation down by tightening the extension.
2 runs after the vid i tightened the ext and comp 4 clicks and the 60ft dropped from 1.43 to 1.41.
Mick
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 03:20 PM

My thinking is to find out if the shocks have enough control the way they are valved now. I suggested going full stiff on extension to see what would happen, then loosen them to see if it gets better or worse. That would tell you if you need a shock that can be tightened up more on extension than what you have now.
Posted By: cudadon

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 04:56 PM

Mick do you have a trans brake?
If so try raising the launch rpm to 3200 it will HIT the tire harder. That was a good spot for me when I had SS springs, and then Cal tracs.

I also agree with MrP and Gregs dart. Do you have access to Dave Morgans Door Slammers chassis book?
Some of the info is outdated, but it explains moving the shocks and it's effect on the leverage.
That also effects the spring rate also.
If I had a scanner I would email it to you.
The placement of the shocks is very important in choosing spring rates.
Your car looks good, and that looks like a good track.
Don

Attached picture 8212140-race4-27-14.jpg
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 05:28 PM

The stiffer the shocks can be and the car hook, the quicker it will be. The shock does NOTHING other than control the housing. The question what do you WANT the housing to do. Loose on extension lets the housing slam to the pavement, which can hit the tire TOO hard in many instances. You want to CONTROL the housing, not let it fly around. Car that LOOK violent and jerky, tend to not be fast or consistent. You want SMOOTH and smooth is fast. Doesn't matter that you moved the shock. The shock still does the same job, the settings just might need to be different because of leverage.

I tend to start the "bump" or compression around the middle. This lets the tire follow the track over bumps and lets the shock work. I would likely start the extension at 3/4 from tight and see what happens. If it slams the housing down, tighten the ext more. Once you get the ext about right, you might need to stiffen the "bump" to HOLD the housing down and keep the tire planted.

Your car seems fast enough that LOOSE will NOT be the way to go

Monte
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 06:53 PM

Greg
I would like to think that there's enough valving because i dont want to send them back to the US.
Don
No transbrake, i just flash it from around 2500.
I might look into buying that. Thanks for the remark, the car may look good from that far away but it's getting scruffy up close, i will try and get it painted in the next year. The track is one of the best in europe.
Monte
Please dont take this wrong but you suggest starting at 3/4 from full tight which would indicate around 10, then suggest not to loosen my car up, when on the vid i had the ext 24 from full soft.
I have softened the ext to see what happens next time out but comp is about the same.
Thanks for the advice, please add to this as it helps me to understand what affect these changes make.
Mick
Posted By: 440W8 Duster

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/18/14 08:16 PM

Quote:

Greg
I would like to think that there's enough valving because i dont want to send them back to the US.
Don
No transbrake, i just flash it from around 2500.
I might look into buying that. Thanks for the remark, the car may look good from that far away but it's getting scruffy up close, i will try and get it painted in the next year. The track is one of the best in europe.
Monte
Please dont take this wrong but you suggest starting at 3/4 from full tight which would indicate around 10, then suggest not to loosen my car up, when on the vid i had the ext 24 from full soft.
I have softened the ext to see what happens next time out but comp is about the same.
Thanks for the advice, please add to this as it helps me to understand what affect these changes make.
Mick



no is will be 30 clicks not 10 clicks.

30 clicks from full soft is what monte is saying.
Posted By: Tig

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/19/14 01:16 PM

Hi Mick.
We've had Afco's on front and rear from the start of the season and we're just getting to see what happens with what settings, we've managed to accumulate some useful, though rough data.
The first thing we've learn't is to get the slick pressure correct, we're running more pressure than we ever have lately.
Also don't get too hung up on the 60ft times if you want to go quicker, we've discovered our car et's and mphs better with some spin off the line.
We set the car up to do medium wheelies last weekend, just dropping the front at the 60ft and the 60ft times were great, approaching 60ft pb's but the car wouldn't mph and et like it should have done, even in those conditions.
We left it at medium wheelie setting because the car was pulling the tyres out of the lights and we were getting too close to the red (all of them were o.o with some o.oo's too). Eventually we did go red (0.009?) in the semi's
So far on our car we've learnt that good 60ft = good reactions, slower mph and slightly slower et's.
Controlling the rear rise with ext damping helped considerably and works alongside with tyre pressure (watch for excess wadding or slamming the tyre into the ground). Compression can be used to induce or control some spin further off the line.
Of course this all works in conjunction with what the front does and if wheelie bars are fitted, we're still finding out stuff but a lot of what being said on this forum works in practice on our car.
Here's a typical launch from the weekend, Courtesy of Richard Smith, we still think we can do with a little more air in the rears
http://rdsmith.zenfolio.com/dragstalgia-2014/e1eb00eef
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/19/14 02:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Greg
I would like to think that there's enough valving because i dont want to send them back to the US.
Don
No transbrake, i just flash it from around 2500.
I might look into buying that. Thanks for the remark, the car may look good from that far away but it's getting scruffy up close, i will try and get it painted in the next year. The track is one of the best in europe.
Monte
Please dont take this wrong but you suggest starting at 3/4 from full tight which would indicate around 10, then suggest not to loosen my car up, when on the vid i had the ext 24 from full soft.
I have softened the ext to see what happens next time out but comp is about the same.
Thanks for the advice, please add to this as it helps me to understand what affect these changes make.
Mick



no is will be 30 clicks not 10 clicks.

30 clicks from full soft is what monte is saying.



This must be the difference from the 2 sides of the pond..
here on this side we say X number of clicks from
the Softest setting and what I see is on the other
side of the pond they tend to say X number of clicks
from the stiffest setting... so when we say(USA)
X number of clicks we are talking from 0(softest)..
I'm sure you heard guys saying on their Rancho shocks
setting at 8 or 9.. 9 is the max tight
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/19/14 02:58 PM

HI Tig
Thanks for your input, what pressure do you run in your tyres and are they stiff wall hoosiers ?
While we are taliking could you either post the weather conditions from last week or pm them to me. I'm just tyring to get a handle on the car's performance and the conditions, you looked to be about .2 off your pb if i'm not wrong. BTW, I had 13.5 psi n my CO7 Hoosiers.
Mr P
I think you could well be right, certain points can get lost in translation, that's why i ask for clarification sometimes.
If the track conditions are good again, i'm now thinking of tightening the extension at least 4 clicks to 32 from soft to start with and perhaps leave the comp where it was last time.
I realise if the extension is loose the comp needs to be stiff to keep the tyres planted but not sure quite where it needs to be if the ext is tight.
Mick
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/19/14 03:10 PM

Quote:

HI Tig
Thanks for your input, what pressure do you run in your tyres and are they stiff wall hoosiers ?
While we are taliking could you either post the weather conditions from last week or pm them to me. I'm just tyring to get a handle on the car's performance and the conditions, you looked to be about .2 off your pb if i'm not wrong. BTW, I had 13.5 psi n my CO7 Hoosiers.
Mr P
I think you could well be right, certain points can get lost in translation, that's why i ask for clarification sometimes.
If the track conditions are good again, i'm now thinking of tightening the extension at least 4 clicks to 32 from soft to start with and perhaps leave the comp where it was last time.
I realise if the extension is loose the comp needs to be stiff to keep the tyres planted but not sure quite where it needs to be if the ext is tight.
Mick



For now I would leave the compression side where you are
and work on the extension side.. lots of video.. also
get someone to video so the camera is getting a 1/4ing
angle from the rear so you can see the rear and the
front tires and get the camera pretty close(camera
should be just off the quarter panel when your on
the line.. a tripod really helps)
Posted By: Tig

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/19/14 04:13 PM

Quote:

HI Tig
Thanks for your input, what pressure do you run in your tyres and are they stiff wall hoosiers ?
While we are taliking could you either post the weather conditions from last week or pm them to me. I'm just tyring to get a handle on the car's performance and the conditions, you looked to be about .2 off your pb if i'm not wrong. BTW, I had 13.5 psi n my CO7 Hoosiers.
Mick


Tyres were 14.5 psi in the lanes, M/T's 3062 normal bias ply with tubes.
D/A (density altitude) was around 1500ft most of the time and as hi as 2500ft on Saturday afternoon, (on our station). 1500 costs us roughly a 10th. Our best times are set in -ve D/A (-800ft IIRC) In last weekends weather we, should have been hi 9.60's. Best et of the weekend was 9.75 D/A at around 1500, a little slow due to weather and chassis set up.
HTH's
Posted By: cudadon

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/19/14 04:53 PM

Happy Birthday Mick
Don

Attached picture 8213193-wheelsup5-1-11.jpg
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 07/20/14 11:20 AM

Thanks Don
Posted By: deaks

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS ( UPDATE ) - 10/10/14 12:34 AM

Well i thought i would update my shock adjustment results.
I did 8 runs and tried different settings on nearly every run.
I started on the above settings and ended up with the best results on ext between 12 and 16 from soft and the comp at 24 from soft this gave me back to back 1.40 60 ft's which i managed to repeat on my next outing with the same settings.
Here is a link to one of my best runs, i'm launching about 4 mins in a met orange Dart, before anyone mentions it, yes i know i've got a bit of a bumpsteer problem but i'm looking for observations on what the car is doing and any suggestions for possible improvements. Launch method is flash stall from around 2000 rpm, car has ultimate 5000 converter.
Mick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmLeKEeJGUs
Posted By: steeldust

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS ( UPDATE ) - 10/10/14 01:49 AM

Has anyone run Afco double adjustable shocks on a stock front end on a DUSTER will they clear the frame ? I got to stop the wheelies without bars. Thanks
Posted By: 1967dartgt

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS ( UPDATE ) - 10/10/14 04:08 AM

Quote:

Has anyone run Afco double adjustable shocks on a stock front end on a DUSTER will they clear the frame ? I got to stop the wheelies without bars. Thanks



Get limiters for the front end travel.
Posted By: 1967dartgt

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 10/10/14 04:09 AM

On my dart I had to cut the lip off for the bump stop plate on frame rail.
Posted By: steeldust

Re: AFCO DOUBLE SETTINGS - 10/10/14 04:20 AM

Quote:

On my dart I had to cut the lip off for the bump stop plate on frame rail.

Thanks when I jacket the car up that`s what I was thinking but would the frame be ok I am going to order them and make them work or I hope .I have limiters but with Radials and only a 250 shot it`s not working and i have to spray it a lot more .

Attached picture 8296098-10653671_10201571558129941_885380876871372220_n[1].jpg
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