E85 ruining my oil

Posted By: Racebuddy

E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 10:15 PM

It takes no time for the E85 to milk down my Brad Penn oil.
It looks like crap. i run evac system and thats all. there is a tremendous amount of moisture in the motor.

Talking to a few guys at the track who run E85, they are talking about "lean out valves" and running the motor 200 degrees and such. Does not sound good to me.

Is E85 really this difficult? Small Block stroker 418,W-2, roller, drag race set up.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 10:23 PM

you must be pig rich, I ran the same oil all season and it still looked good.

Posted By: slippery440

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 10:32 PM

I put a vacumn pump on and that cured all the water problems. The pump came off a 1987 camaro. Put a vented catch can and plumb it in. I notice just a little water vaper for the first 2 to 3 minutes then nothing. Rember to turn the pump on before you start the motor, The crank pressure will push oil out the seals and gaskets.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 10:32 PM

Quote:

It takes no time for the E85 to milk down my Brad Penn oil.
It looks like crap. i run evac system and thats all. there is a tremendous amount of moisture in the motor.

Talking to a few guys at the track who run E85, they are talking about "lean out valves" and running the motor 200 degrees and such. Does not sound good to me.

Is E85 really this difficult? Small Block stroker 418,W-2, roller, drag race set up.

Sounds rich but the lean out valves work... I never
had any milking in the oil once your in the range..
even without the lean out valve.. but the lean out
valve will save you fuel during the warm up

Posted By: 1980volare

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 10:59 PM

Brad penn is a no no with e85, look it up. I used joe gibbs, and recently switched to vr1 win no issues. The oil will attract moisture. If you start the car at all, let it warm up. I let mine hit 200f before I put it up to get the moisture out. No vac pump, or evac.

Posted By: Copper Dart

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 11:09 PM

Posted By: slippery440

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 11:45 PM

Quote:

Brad penn is a no no with e85, look it up. I used joe gibbs, and recently switched to vr1 win no issues. The oil will attract moisture. If you start the car at all, let it warm up. I let mine hit 200f before I put it up to get the moisture out. No vac pump, or evac.

Where did you read that about Brad Penn?????

Posted By: 440W8 Duster

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/26/14 11:59 PM

Quote:

It takes no time for the E85 to milk down my Brad Penn oil.
It looks like crap. i run evac system and thats all. there is a tremendous amount of moisture in the motor.

Talking to a few guys at the track who run E85, they are talking about "lean out valves" and running the motor 200 degrees and such. Does not sound good to me.

Is E85 really this difficult? Small Block stroker 418,W-2, roller, drag race set up.

When I ran Ethanol I would let the motor warm up to at least 170* for the water to evapotate. I ran a ball valve and opened it up when I started it to lean it out to get to temp quicker once warmed up I closed it. Lean out the idle on it.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 01:46 AM

Any alcohol fuel (methanol, ethanol, E85) needs proper tuning and procedures. Some pointers:
1) Get the idle mixture lean enough, rich milks the oil
2) Stage at 160-180F water temperature
3) Heat to 190-200 F before shutting down at the end of the night and pull the breathers for a while to let things evaporate.
4) Plug fuel vents, reinstall breathers during storage between weekends.

I never had any problems with the oil with E85 or methanol and I used Brad Penn all the time since I ran a flat tappet solid lifter cam. 2008-2013.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 05:43 AM

I've been racing with E85 for two years now, no milking of the oil

I did dyno tune the motor(mainly the jetting) before putting it in the car, my car has a very small cooling system so it runs 180+ on the return roads at our local 1/8 mile track, ir will run over 200 F on the return roads at the 1/4 mile tracks, maybe that is a good thing

It does not cool down on the return road like a friend of mine car does who races with E85 also

He has a standard radiator and cooling system, mine is tiny

Mine does take some time to warm up in the morning and it does cool down quickly once it's shut off

Posted By: racerAL

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 06:00 AM

ive ran e85 for 3 years, no milking of the oil at all...I use Rottella 15/40...and im also like Cab I have a undersized radiator in my car...it builds heat much quicker than it did when I had a big 3 core radiator in it..i didn't like it taking so long to build heat..and instead of going leaner, I just switched to a smaller radiator...now im 170 or so at the line...and maybe 195 down the return road.

Attached picture 8188889-.alan.jpg

Posted By: FlyFish

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 02:38 PM

I just started running e85 this year, no issues with the oil at all (Rotella 15-40). Building enough heat in the motor can be tough since it runs so cool on e85, but just be sure to get it up to temp and the water will vaporize (no more "milk"). I don't have any issue because I have been driving my car back and forth to the track...that gives it plenty of time to get warm.

Posted By: VernMotor

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 04:58 PM

I run Rotella 15-40 also. I have never seen anything in my oil. and I thought I had it rich at one point. so you got it way to rich. that would be very hard to get heat in it. or you got a ring seal problem. might do a leak down on it. Lots of guys run a lean out valve on them.

Posted By: 69dart

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 05:02 PM

I've been running E85 for years and the oil only gets milked if the engine is not getting warmed up enough or if there is another problem (leaking head gasket).

Do you run a thermostat? I have always run a 180 degree thermostat on E85 otherwise its difficult to get up to temp. I never run the fan/water after parking the car after a pass ...let it heat soak ...unless very late round robin.

On the final pass of the day I'll leave the fan off and water pump on so the engine is 190-200 before driving into the trailer. OEM cars run 220+ and Nascar runs crazy high temps so getting the temp up to 200 is not going to hurt anything.

Posted By: dartman366

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 05:10 PM

I run Brad Penn and have had no issues with milking even when the motor was pig rich at first, just like methanol,, heat is your friend to prevent moisture especially in humid conditions

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/27/14 07:29 PM

I know this has nothing to do with the E85 much but heat is a good thing not only forr your oil but for the "Iron Heads".. I was always told to achieve good combustion the motor needs to be around 190 degress for an iron head.. Just my

I will be running E85 this year with my small block W2 motor so this thread helps me
out ! Please correct me if I am wrong about the heat to achieve good combustion.

Thanks

Posted By: AAR-B4

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/28/14 12:14 AM

Quote:

i run evac system and thats all.

Make sure the evac is working. If it is the header/pipe smog valve type the smog/back-fire valves do not last long. Once the disc falls off inside the valve you could be pressurizing the crankcase.
I gave up on this type of evac and just left the hoses off.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/28/14 04:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

i run evac system and thats all.

Make sure the evac is working. If it is the header/pipe smog valve type the smog/back-fire valves do not last long. Once the disc falls off inside the valve you could be pressurizing the crankcase.
I gave up on this type of evac and just left the hoses off.

If you dont run exhaust you dont even need the valve
but at low rpm is when the valve helps.. I've run the
valve 8" away from the point where the pipe attached
the collector just to keep it farther away from the heat
and its all about the angle of the end of the pipe
and where its located in the collector for the best vac

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/28/14 12:49 PM

Quote:

Any alcohol fuel (methanol, ethanol, E85) needs proper tuning and procedures. Some pointers:
1) Get the idle mixture lean enough, rich milks the oil
2) Stage at 160-180F water temperature
3) Heat to 190-200 F before shutting down at the end of the night and pull the breathers for a while to let things evaporate.
4) Plug fuel vents, reinstall breathers during storage between weekends.

I never had any problems with the oil with E85 or methanol and I used Brad Penn all the time since I ran a flat tappet solid lifter cam. 2008-2013.

Any alcohol needs heat to work best. Don't be afraid to see the temps get up over 200+ on the return road or during a warmup. I warm mine to 210 at the start of the day to put heat into the trans and oil, and it cools to 180/190 for the starting line easily. Ethanol will cool less than methanol, but works pretty close to the same temp wise.

Posted By: cudaboy

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/28/14 01:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Brad penn is a no no with e85, look it up. I used joe gibbs, and recently switched to vr1 win no issues. The oil will attract moisture. If you start the car at all, let it warm up. I let mine hit 200f before I put it up to get the moisture out. No vac pump, or evac.

Where did you read that about Brad Penn?????

http://www.penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/File/March%202011_E85_TECH_LETTER_BRAD_PENN.pdf

This maybe?

Dennis

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/28/14 11:37 PM

I have been running alcohol for quite a few years(Rons Terminators)with a vacuum pump,my engine see's 180 degrees when I first crank it using the lean out valve to build temp.so I can shut it off and let it heat sink(aluminum rods)it never milks the oil.As long as my water temp. is a 140 degrees are higher when I pull into staging thats fine with me,most times by the end of the run its around 150 degrees,I turn the fan on and by the time I drive back to my pit its down to 140 degrees I turn everything off and hook the battery charger up only,no cool down of any kind needed.It repeats the numbers and is just as fast as when the temp. is at 180-190 degrees.I'm a Bracket Racer so it has to repeat,I don't understand the need for 180-190 degree temp. in an engine.A lot of times when you milk the oil all you need do is lean out the barrel valve at idle.
I will set my combined barrel valve & shut off valve then adjust it to help build heat in the engine either way colder or hotter and the throttle response is much better set this way.

PS sometimes we over look the simple things,when we have a problem.

Posted By: 1980volare

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 01:46 AM

http://www.penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/File/March%202011_E85_TECH_LETTER_BRAD_PENN.pdf

Hope the link works. I think it's a PDF file.

Posted By: jst19600

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 02:06 AM

Where do you get these lean out valves and how are they plumbed in?

Posted By: VernMotor

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 04:10 AM

Just a ball valve with a handle on it. hook to a hose going to the intake. You are just making a vacuum leak.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 05:44 AM

Quote:

It takes no time for the E85 to milk down my Brad Penn oil.
It looks like crap. i run evac system and thats all. there is a tremendous amount of moisture in the motor.

Talking to a few guys at the track who run E85, they are talking about "lean out valves" and running the motor 200 degrees and such. Does not sound good to me.

Is E85 really this difficult? Small Block stroker 418,W-2, roller, drag race set up.

If your evac system is the old style hose from the breathers on the valve covers to the header collectors with a GM anti backfire valve in the collector it is probally the cause of your oil getting moisture in it

I had that happen many years ago when those sytems, Million Dollar Promotions and the Moroso brands first came out on my old bracket car racing with race gas

It would milk up the oil in the valve covers around the breather connections

The motor cools down a lot slower than the headers do so it ends up sucking air back into the motor up the hoses into the valve covers and condenses the moisture in the air at the top of the motor

Once I disconnected the system it stop doing the milking of the oil so I took it off and warned other racers about those systems, you've been warned now

My next, maybe

, motor will have a vacume pump on it so the motor will be sealed up tight, no breathers or any other way for outside air to enter the motor

Moroso did add a PCV valve to thier systems later I think, I seem to remember that helped dry the moisture out of thier sytems according to other racers that used them

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 03:38 PM

Quote:

Where do you get these lean out valves and how are they plumbed in?

A lean out valve is the same as a cut off valve,you can buy them at Home depot,Lowes or Marvins most any hardware store.They are used for both water & gas and come in all sizes so you will have no problem finding one the size of your fuel line,you just splice it into your fuel line close to the carb.and when finish measure to see how long of a push pull cable you will need and go to the boat place and you can find them in most any length you need.I like the Morse cable best its more heavy duty,or you might could find a choke cable at Napa or Car Quest.When you get the cut off valve in your fuel line & a cable to open & close it,when you crank you engine you just close the valve(reducing the flow of the fuel) about 1/2 - 3/4 closed(close as much as possible with out stalling the engine) to warm the engine.Before I cut my engine off after making a pass or just warming it up I will lean it out with the barrel valve till it brings the idle up and then turn the engine off.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 03:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Where do you get these lean out valves and how are they plumbed in?

A lean out valve is the same as a cut off valve,you can buy them at Home depot,Lowes or Marvins most any hardware store.They are used for both water & gas and come in all sizes so you will have no problem finding one the size of your fuel line,you just splice it into your fuel line close to the carb.and when finish measure to see how long of a push pull cable you will need and go to the boat place and you can find them in most any length you need.I like the Morse cable best its more heavy duty,or you might could find a choke cable at Napa or Car Quest.When you get the cut off valve in your fuel line & a cable to open & close it,when you crank you engine you just close the valve(reducing the flow of the fuel) about 1/2 - 3/4 closed(close as much as possible with out stalling the engine) to warm the engine.Before I cut my engine off after making a pass or just warming it up I will lean it out with the barrel valve till it brings the idle up and then turn the engine off.

Thats why I like to induce the vac leak to lean it down..
its cheaper and easier to do the vac side.. no cable
and you dont have to mess with the fuel line.. hook
up a hose on the intake and run the hose inside to
a ball valve... I never did the one last step of putting
a needle valve on the ball valve so I could flip the
ball valve full open and the needle valve controlled
the leak rate... that just makes it super easy

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 04:30 PM

Mr_P I have never thought about that but I can see where it would work.That's what I like about these forum's you can sometimes learn something new.I still think I would prefer the cut off valve in the fuel line,but that's more than likely because that's what I have and what I am use too.But it is always nice to have choices.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 05:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It takes no time for the E85 to milk down my Brad Penn oil.
It looks like crap. i run evac system and thats all. there is a tremendous amount of moisture in the motor.

Talking to a few guys at the track who run E85, they are talking about "lean out valves" and running the motor 200 degrees and such. Does not sound good to me.

Is E85 really this difficult? Small Block stroker 418,W-2, roller, drag race set up.

If your evac system is the old style hose from the breathers on the valve covers to the header collectors with a GM anti backfire valve in the collector it is probally the cause of your oil getting moisture in it I had that happen many years ago when those sytems, Million Dollar Promotions and the Moroso brands first came out on my old bracket car racing with race gas It would milk up the oil in the valve covers around the breather connections The motor cools down a lot slower than the headers do so it ends up sucking air back into the motor up the hoses into the valve covers and condenses the moisture in the air at the top of the motor Once I disconnected the system it stop doing the milking of the oil so I took it off and warned other racers about those systems, you've been warned now My next, maybe , motor will have a vacume pump on it so the motor will be sealed up tight, no breathers or any other way for outside air to enter the motor Moroso did add a PCV valve to thier systems later I think, I seem to remember that helped dry the moistureee out of thier sytems according to other racers that used them

ran that vac system for 2 seasons, no milk in the oil. So I doubt that is the cause.

Posted By: VernMotor

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 06/29/14 05:36 PM

evac system is the old style hose from the breathers on the valve covers to the header collectors with a GM anti backfire valve in the collector. This what I run ? no problems. but interesting to hear that.

Posted By: jst19600

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/02/14 07:19 PM

Id sure like to see some pics of your vacuum lean out valve setup.Does anyone have some pics to share?

Posted By: Racebuddy

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/10/14 02:52 PM

I went down 7 jet sizes in front and back of this QuickFuel 850 .
67 GTX 418 SB went 1.340 60 ft but would only run 100.13 mph. It just cruises, doesn't pull hard.

Was very happy with how cheap oil looked after the race. I did heat it up before putting car up last race. No white pudding.
Had new evac system on it to start with. I guess combo of no heat and a little rich hurt it.
working on lean out valve. So Brad Penn oil OK??

Posted By: FlyFish

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/10/14 03:01 PM

What does it normally run MPH wise? 60' is almost all in the squirters, your jetting is in the MPH. 7 sizes is a LOT...sounds like you might be lean now if it isn't pulling hard. What is your jetting and HSAB? Have you checked a plug, or do you have a wideband to tell the air/fuel ratio?

Posted By: 1980volare

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/10/14 03:47 PM

No, brad penn is not to be used with e85. I posted this earlier, you must of missed it.

http://www.penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/File/March%202011_E85_TECH_LETTER_BRAD_PENN.pdf

Posted By: TheBlackCar

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/10/14 05:23 PM

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6692k11/=ss05gu

This is what most around here use. Just plumb a line to manifold and connect to back of valve. Mount valve within drivers reach and simply pull slide on this out to create a vacuum leak (lean out).

Hope this helps...

Posted By: VernMotor

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/11/14 02:27 AM

Quote:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6692k11/=ss05gu

This is what most around here use. Just plumb a line to manifold and connect to back of valve. Mount valve within drivers reach and simply pull slide on this out to create a vacuum leak (lean out).

Hope this helps...

Now that is cool. I think I will have one of them. Never seen one

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/11/14 02:46 AM

For $30 I'll still use a needle valve(I'm cheap)..
set it 1 time and thats it.. just turn the 1/4 ball
valve wide open and let needle valve control the leak

Posted By: Racebuddy

Re: E85 ruining my oil - 07/11/14 05:11 AM

No I saw the posts about then Brad Penn oil but guys said they ran it with success.

I figure the car should run 104-105 mph in 1/8 and run 6.39