Putting glide behind a small block

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 04:43 AM

Good luck with it. I am sure the Glide will help make it a killer consistant car.

Posted By: SpareParts

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 06:50 AM

Quote:

Brother don't listen to that crap...and if it were true it would be a proflite.The reason trans guy's say that is because there bench would be empty except for freshen ups.
Heavy or light once your geared right they are good.The ATI bell i ised required zero shims w a sb mini mopar starter and you get converters cheaper to.JMO

Don't dismiss it as "crap" I got it from a very respected SBM racer here. I won't name drop but the guy has been very fast on 10.5's and looking at the new bullet is about to go faster. I got my 904 from a buddy who went to a glide, I asked a while later how the motor liked the glide (883hp W8 mill) he just asked if I wanted to sell the 904 lol

Posted By: DavidDean

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 07:09 AM

I'll keep this one. I've got a lot invested in 904s yeah more than one. I've been really tempted to change to a glide. With the 904 I'm geared 3.91 and it's fast 5.66 @ 120 and can run 1/4 w this set up . I've now installed just about every billet and aluminum piece inside. I've broken lots of 904 stuff . I tried a 2.28 low but it slowed between .1-.2 depending on altitude . Maybe it will stop breaking stuff . My car weighs about 2775#. If I had to do over I'd build a glide especially in a light car. Yeah the wheelies are fun. But going rounds are more fun!

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 01:40 PM

To each his own...I will have 0 worries about my glide and only hope the car will 60' like Brian's dart which also has a glide. 1.17 sb na

Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 03:45 PM

I spent some time talking to guys while I was at the No Box Nationals last weekend
99% where all running a Glide. Every car that went to the finals had a glide.
This is not just by chance, that's why I'm making the switch.

One more question guys, any issue with the glide fitting in the stock tunnel of a
Duster.

Posted By: Leon441

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 04:08 PM

A 904 is simply the fastest stock based trans out there. If you change over to a 2.28 low gear and the car slows you need more rear gear ratio to make up the difference. Same thing with powerglide. If your engine does not make enough torque to pull the higher gear you will not like the glide.

Powerglides are fine but if you are now running a 3.91 gear you will probable need a 4.30 to work with the glide.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 04:25 PM

Years ago Mopar racing manuals used to say if you switch a lightweight (2800 pounds) BIG block car from a 727 to a glide it should be a wash. The added torque of the big block could handle the gear ratio reduction. In a small block even the swap from a 904 to a 727 is about .10 with the right convertor. More with the wrong convertor. I know in my Duster at 2850 pounds and a pump gas 408 combo I am taking a performance hit but for a bracket car to me the loss is worth it in consistency and a lower rebuild costs. My cores cost me 50 dollars with a 1.76 gear and rebuild kits are under 150 dollars.

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 04:49 PM

Quote:

I spent some time talking to guys while I was at the No Box Nationals last weekend
99% where all running a Glide. Every car that went to the finals had a glide.
This is not just by chance, that's why I'm making the switch.

One more question guys, any issue with the glide fitting in the stock tunnel of a
Duster.

Yes my ati with a thick alum case went in with not so much as ding.The cross member i have is from my 727 and its just modified a tiny bit.

Posted By: nitrousr

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/17/14 08:33 PM

We are in the process of putting a glide behind our hemi and were going back and forth between the jw bell or the adaptor plate. In the end we went with the adaptor plate and an aftermarket one piece chevy case. The final decision was based on if we hurt the trans we were more likely to be able to borrow/buy a chev setup than a trans that was modified for a jw.

Posted By: 440W8 Duster

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/18/14 02:40 AM

I have one in my car just for the consistency of it. The wheel stands are nice but they don't get you to the next round. Plus my car left to violent with the 727.I run the JW ultra case with roller tail shaft and Ultra Bell with a 1.80 first gear.It went 1.30 60ft and ran a 5.81 with a glide.

http://youtu.be/RTDkU8WCjLo

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/18/14 10:46 PM

With the RIGHT converter, it will pretty much be a wash on ET. It is after all called a TORQUE converter.........LOL!!!

Posted By: Bill_LBSR

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/18/14 11:13 PM

Just FYI, if you go with an ATI powerglide case and bell for a small block, make sure they include the spacer between the case and bellhousing.

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/18/14 11:27 PM

Quote:

With the RIGHT converter, it will pretty much be a wash on ET. It is after all called a TORQUE converter.........LOL!!!

Explain that one to me......

If you look at championship caliber 100 meter dash guys, the tall long legged guys usually make big steam in the last 50 meters, making the advantage up over the guys with shorter strides, but I drag racing that first half is everything, your generally not going to make up that lost ground from "leaving soft".

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 01:24 AM

NA sb's goin 1.11/ 12 is not soft. Three speeds might help slower heavy cars out i guess,
But saying a glide leaves soft is actualy cause the car aint right.
95% of chevys and stangs run glides or 2 speed 400's with so much success.If your lookin for thousand of a sec then yeah a proflite may be needed.JMO

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 01:27 AM

Quote:

Just FYI, if you go with an ATI powerglide case and bell for a small block, make sure they include the spacer between the case and bellhousing.

Lol funny you should say that Bill

.I ordered the spacer and went to use it...And bam it was already there.
I have an extra if someone needs it...

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 01:32 AM

Quote:

NA sb's goin 1.11/ 12 is not soft. Three speeds might help slower heavy cars out i guess,
But saying a glide leaves soft is actualy cause the car aint right.
95% of chevys and stangs run glides or 2 speed 400's with so much success.If your lookin for thousand of a sec then yeah a proflite may be needed.JMO

I am talking about a car like the OP has.... I don't doubt making 1 less shift and having a trans with a much taller first gear will numb the launch and contribute to consistency, but I have a tough time believing it will 60 as well.
I think he already replaced the low gear in his 904 with the 2.45 gear to numb the hit...

I suspect those 1.11 and 1.12 60 foots are because the power glide is by nature going to be way more forgiving at ramping in power and masking traction issues than a 3 speed would.

Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 02:02 AM

here you go

psca 2014 weight brakes if this is not proof. I can look up the nmca rules for you to. DEDUCT WEIGHT (In Percent of your Engine Cubic Inch Displacement)
10% For Single Carburetor Applications
10% For Pre-74 Full & Mid-size Entries
15% For a 2-speed Automatic Transmission (Big Blocks)
20% For a 2-speed Automatic Transmission (Small Blocks) it 1s at least a tenth maybe more. most people will not spend the time or money. to make a three speed work they will usually ride the wheelie bar to hard and kill ET a three speed with a flat first like a 2.08or 2.20 is where it is at for a small block

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 03:06 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3rjmiakbkw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

2 na sb's...grey one went 8.00 i can say that now because the car was sold and is now a 23* TRE built nos car thats been 4.60's on spray.
I can assure you also that ton's of timing gets removed off the hit so you can get down on a crappy track like the night of this video.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 04:38 AM

When I made the switch to a glide from my 727 the car was .01 slower to 60' on the first hit. It went 1.29 with the 727 and 1.30 with the glide. It has since been much quicker by playing with everything and fixing the engine that Shadydell screwed up. See Sig for best times......I have no regrets and it is deadly enough to win races now.

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 05:40 AM

N/A car pretty awesome for a glide.

Posted By: Bob_Spelic

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 04:54 PM

I have been reading this and there is all good info. I have a 66 charger and a race tech dragster. I have always ran 727 in the charger. When I got the dragster I put a glide into it because a 727 shorty is a lot of money and only A&A does it. After running a glide for 5 years and servicing it, the glide is, in my opinion, the hands down winner for simplicity, and durability (with FULL aftermarket support for ANY internal component). You don�t see a glide T-Brake move once the button is pushed, NEVER, unless there is something internally wrong. They flat out lock down.

I would go the cut off stock case and the JW bell. I can speak with firsthand knowledge that the mopar mini starter fits, the RobbMC starter fits and any of the power master variants fit. The bell is right around $350. It is good for certification for 5 years. You will have to run a shield over the stock case but not the bell shield. I have been running a stock case glide into the 7.90�s for 5 years without issue. I open the trans early and this year was the first time it needed to have the clutches replaced. This is with about 150 to 200 runs per year (depending on how well I do). Like everyone says, converters are a glides best friend. If you know where your engine makes the highest torque and HP, all of the converter companies have been designing glide converters for hundreds or cars per year and they will hit the right converter for your combo.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Bob spelic

Attached picture 8181040-2014UNDERTAKERATPRP.jpg

Attached picture 8181040-2014UNDERTAKERATPRP.jpg

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 06:08 PM

I don't know where this idea that a car with a glide will be "lazy" or won't 60ft came from. That is FAR from the truth. Just because so and so put a glide in his car with the WRONG converter and the car was a slug early, doesn't make that scenario a fact.

Lots of gear, be it rear OR trans, lets you accelerate the car with rpm, which may or may not be the quickest way down the track, depending on your combo. With a taller gear in the trans or rear, it puts the onus of moving the car on the converter and it MUST be right. You want to USE the grunt the motor makes, be it a small or big block, and let that torque WORK the torque converter and move the car.

Also, guys put WAY too much emphasis on 60ft numbers. While they are important, they are NOT as important as 330 numbers. Now before anybody says a quicker 60ft always presents a faster 330......the reply to that is NO, it does NOT automatically work that way. How the car uses the power from 60 TO 330 is what makes those numbers good or bad.

So put a ton of gear in a low powered car and it MAY accelerate like a bandit for 100 feet or so, but then it is all done and flat on its face, because you topped the motor out very early. Now you put a taller gear in that same car, use the torque and make the car accelerate hard for a LONGER period of time and it WILL be quicker to 330, even though the 60 may not be quite as good. WAY more numbers on a time slip than the 60 and ET. Learn what those other numbers mean and what helps them. I will sacrifice a couple numbers in 60ft for the car to be in control and moving harder at 330 EVERY time

Monte

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 06:44 PM

Quote:

I don't know where this idea that a car with a glide will be "lazy" or won't 60ft came from. That is FAR from the truth. Just because so and so put a glide in his car with the WRONG converter and the car was a slug early, doesn't make that scenario a fact.

Lots of gear, be it rear OR trans, lets you accelerate the car with rpm, which may or may not be the quickest way down the track, depending on your combo. With a taller gear in the trans or rear, it puts the onus of moving the car on the converter and it MUST be right. You want to USE the grunt the motor makes, be it a small or big block, and let that torque WORK the torque converter and move the car.

Also, guys put WAY too much emphasis on 60ft numbers. While they are important, they are NOT as important as 330 numbers. Now before anybody says a quicker 60ft always presents a faster 330......the reply to that is NO, it does NOT automatically work that way. How the car uses the power from 60 TO 330 is what makes those numbers good or bad.

So put a ton of gear in a low powered car and it MAY accelerate like a bandit for 100 feet or so, but then it is all done and flat on its face, because you topped the motor out very early. Now you put a taller gear in that same car, use the torque and make the car accelerate hard for a LONGER period of time and it WILL be quicker to 330, even though the 60 may not be quite as good. WAY more numbers on a time slip than the 60 and ET. Learn what those other numbers mean and what helps them. I will sacrifice a couple numbers in 60ft for the car to be in control and moving harder at 330 EVERY time

Monte

Hi Monte.... Always enjoy your posts.

That said, a lot of what you said above DOESNT apply to probably 80-90 percent of the guys on here, me included.
Car I am putting together has a 318 and will weigh 3400 pounds. I guarantee you if it doesn't 60 foot, it isn't going to make it up elsewhere.
A lot of weekend race cars are exactly like that, be they dual purpose cars or heavy cars that don't have 700-800 horse motors in them. A doggy 60 feet can create double the ET liability it creates when you get to the ET shack.
Sure some stuff can overcome a bad 60 foot because of having to pull power away on the hit, being a turbo car, or index car, or a whole variety of scenarios.
But most of us common folk know a bad 60 foot will kill a time slip.....

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 07:23 PM

While that may be true, in this case the OP said it was all about "winning rounds", NOT laying down killer 60ft numbers. So if your only goal is to be consistent and win rounds, the 60ft is not really of any consequence, as long as the car does it the same every round. A two speed WILL be more consistent, I doubt many will dispute that.

My other responses were geared towards the "glide car won't 60ft" comments, that perpetuate EVERY thread on this board where a glide gets mentioned. Does EVERY car need a glide, of course not. But also does a car having a glide automatically make it a weak 60ft car...HELL no. So as with all things, a one size fits all scenario does not apply here.

One other thing......if you are a true bracket racer, that only cares about winning rounds and your car easily makes the ET break for the class and you can have good lights.......why would you care what it 60fts. Cut a light, run the number, drive the finish line, YOU WIN!!! A better 60ft never won a bracket race. What will be more consistent on a track to track basis......a car that goes low 1.30 60fts, but is on the edge or has the wheels 3 feet in the air, or the car that "drives off" and goes high 30 or low 40 60fts?

Rarely does getting every ounce of performance from your combo AND winning lots of rounds go hand in hand. A car "on the edge" is usually an inconsistent car. How many times a guy tell you "I lost 2 in the 60 and couldn't catch him".........when I bracket raced, I heard it every day at the track. And it was MY quest for ultimate performance that pushed me from brackets to heads up. I decided I wanted my car to be as fast as it could be, but I also started winning lots less rounds, because I was always "tinkering" instead of just standing pat and going rounds. Just have to decide what your goals are

Monte

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 07:41 PM

Great points Monte..........

Just be aware 90% or higher of us on here know we aren't ever going to make a living at bracket racing, so we do our best, live with the results, and go back to busting rocks on Monday morning.
Personally, I have gone plenty of rounds, and won a little money here and there to boot, but to me it's all about getting a given combo to run as good as it can.
Even if bracket racing you get plenty of chances( time trials, opponent red lights, etc) to run the car out the back door and see how fast it can go.
Most everybody I know is constantly " pecking away" at the ET to make the car faster.
Even the OP, who I know well, is like that....... Long story short, lots of us like to compete and bracket racing is the most available platform for that..... But in many cases, we like to go as fast as we can while doing so.

Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 10:14 PM

It's true for me at this point it's all about winning rounds. I finally made the switch from picking away at ET. My car is good and I have won many rounds and races with it over the years. But here's the truth I have to drive the the car different depending on how the car leaves when the track is not great.
A few weeks ago I got asked to race a guys car, made 4 passes Friday night and took it to the finals Saturday night. This car had a glide in it, it may have ruined me. In 12 passes this car moved less then .007 In the 60ft. It made driving the stripe a dream.
So that's what sold me on the glide.

Al

Posted By: SB449VALIANT

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 06/19/14 11:05 PM

I remember been a PITA with Rob Shape ( ATI ) , i asked him for a complete powerglide supercase for sb mopar, his answers were:

We can sell you just the case and adapter. The case is $693.26, and the
adapter is $125.09 We are still in r&d on the SB mopar bell

not sure on an eta... still trying to work the bugs out

And then on April 01 2008 i recived this email from him.

Complete kit is now in production (bell, case, flexplate, adapter, and hardware). Price is $1310.30

Give it a try....i have tried both the adapter plate with oem powerglide, then a glide cut for JW bell, you won't be disappointed
Btw they did sent the ATI powerglide to me without the adapter spacer to...i might have the first one i have to check the serial

As a matter of a fact i just finished doing some sheet metal work to my 65 valiant firewall, o well i did try to stay as close as Original possible but with an engine moved an inch back you get all kind of free problems.

Btw iam about to send the ATI case to get the internals in, to Mobile Alabama in the next couple of days,i wonder if i only need to send the Case and Tail housing?

Posted By: nitrousr

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 07/20/14 02:31 AM

Quote:

We are in the process of putting a glide behind our hemi and were going back and forth between the jw bell or the adaptor plate. In the end we went with the adaptor plate and an aftermarket one piece chevy case. The final decision was based on if we hurt the trans we were more likely to be able to borrow/buy a chev setup than a trans that was modified for a jw.

just wanted to provide an update to this. As it turns out there is considerable modification needed to fit a starter to the chevy bellhousing. The grinding required has rendered the sfi tag void. As happens regularily a good idea has turned out to be anything but. Plans now will be to cut bellhousing off and install a jw. Just wanted to post this in case anyone else was considering this route.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Putting glide behind a small block - 07/20/14 02:38 AM

Quote:

While that may be true, in this case the OP said it was all about "winning rounds", NOT laying down killer 60ft numbers. So if your only goal is to be consistent and win rounds, the 60ft is not really of any consequence, as long as the car does it the same every round. A two speed WILL be more consistent, I doubt many will dispute that.

My other responses were geared towards the "glide car won't 60ft" comments, that perpetuate EVERY thread on this board where a glide gets mentioned. Does EVERY car need a glide, of course not. But also does a car having a glide automatically make it a weak 60ft car...HELL no. So as with all things, a one size fits all scenario does not apply here.

One other thing......if you are a true bracket racer, that only cares about winning rounds and your car easily makes the ET break for the class and you can have good lights.......why would you care what it 60fts. Cut a light, run the number, drive the finish line, YOU WIN!!! A better 60ft never won a bracket race. What will be more consistent on a track to track basis......a car that goes low 1.30 60fts, but is on the edge or has the wheels 3 feet in the air, or the car that "drives off" and goes high 30 or low 40 60fts?

Rarely does getting every ounce of performance from your combo AND winning lots of rounds go hand in hand. A car "on the edge" is usually an inconsistent car. How many times a guy tell you "I lost 2 in the 60 and couldn't catch him".........when I bracket raced, I heard it every day at the track. And it was MY quest for ultimate performance that pushed me from brackets to heads up. I decided I wanted my car to be as fast as it could be, but I also started winning lots less rounds, because I was always "tinkering" instead of just standing pat and going rounds. Just have to decide what your goals are

Monte

I would take a glide any day over a 727 or 904 for bracket racing.

Putting glide behind a small block