cyl. heads size and ci.

Posted By: 68roadrunner

cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 04:53 AM

the question is when running a smaller head than the cubic inch requires what does it do beside lowering the torque curve..

i have the 325cc -1 heads on my stock block 499, with the weight to et formula it makes 735hp. so thats a little less than 1.5 hp per ci

going to build a larger engine with a aluminum block i can build it any size, but will the heads limit the hp at a certain point? will i still gain some hp even with to small a head.

cant really afford more heads yet, just wanting that stock block out of there before it gives up.

thanks for some input.

Posted By: LA360

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 05:49 AM

Gregsdart runs the 440-1 heads an make somewhere around 900hp, so I would imagine your combination isn't maxed out. Generally speaking, adding more cubic inches will bring down your peak power RPM as you stated. If all else remains the same, I would imagine the gains would be minimal.
Here's a

for you

Posted By: firefighter3931

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 11:42 AM

Dwayne at PRH built an aluminum block 572 for one of our members using -1 heads and that combo made 900+ hp on the dyno.

The car is a 68 Charger and has been as fast as 9.0 NA at a raceweight of 3700lbs

You have lots of upside with those heads

Ron

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 11:54 AM

Quote:

Gregsdart runs the 440-1 heads an make somewhere around 900hp, so I would imagine your combination isn't maxed out. Generally speaking, adding more cubic inches will bring down your peak power RPM as you stated. If all else remains the same, I would imagine the gains would be minimal.
Here's a for you

You could send them out to have them ported to the max, if the 325 has enough meat left in them. Do they have the 2.25 intake valves? That would be my first move. Consider buying the valves a touch longer for better installed height if you are going up in valve size. It is tough (maybe impossible)to get more than 2.050 out of the standard length valves. I have plus retainers and keepers to get there.
I started with a max ported 440-1 and told the porter that I wanted lots of runner volume for Alky, and they run pretty good for a 528 cube motor. I also run the 3X intake.

Posted By: 68roadrunner

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 08:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Gregsdart runs the 440-1 heads an make somewhere around 900hp, so I would imagine your combination isn't maxed out. Generally speaking, adding more cubic inches will bring down your peak power RPM as you stated. If all else remains the same, I would imagine the gains would be minimal.
Here's a for you

You could send them out to have them ported to the max, if the 325 has enough meat left in them. Do they have the 2.25 intake valves? That would be my first move. Consider buying the valves a touch longer for better installed height if you are going up in valve size. It is tough (maybe impossible)to get more than 2.050 out of the standard length valves. I have plus retainers and keepers to get there.
I started with a max ported 440-1 and told the porter that I wanted lots of runner volume for Alky, and they run pretty good for a 528 cube motor. I also run the 3X intake.

this combo is no where close to max effort, and dont intend to get it on the edge,i want my engine to go 600 passes without any problem. no they are not 2.25 valves, there is alot that could be done these apparently. i also run alky but mine is carburated. so i can make 900hp with these heads, just need some good head work.

so if i put these heads on 540-572 as they are i will still be below 800hp is that what we think?

thanks guys

Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 08:49 PM

Indy 325 CNC heads flow 370 at .700 lift with the 2.18 intakes.

I had Jim LaRoy up in Challis, ID do the valve job on them and a little touch up to unshroud the chambers to the 4.5 bore. Here is how my 325's flow with the POS Indy valve job (before) and a good valve job. Note the ex/in flow ratio is pretty constant at around 82% across the lift range.

lift............before..........after

.100..........69/61.........80/68
.200........144/123......158/134
.300........215/172......226/183
.400........274/217......277/229
.500........321/251......320/265
.600........346/280......349/290
.700........362/301......368/307
.800........372/317......372/327

My heads have the 2.18 intakes. Jim experimented with dropping a 2.25 valve in without changing the seat. These are the results (I think he used a different cylinder as the before numbers are a little different):

Lift...........before..........after

.100...........80............91 cfm
.200..........158..........177 cfm
.300..........227..........239 cfm
.400..........281..........292 cfm
.500..........329..........335 cfm
.600..........354..........354 cfm

These are on a 540 (4.500 x 4.250) with a Indy R2 cam and 14-1. Not dyno'd yet or run down the track. I am hoping to get in the neighborhood of 800 HP.

Posted By: 68roadrunner

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

Indy 325 CNC heads flow 370 at .700 lift with the 2.18 intakes.

I had Jim LaRoy up in Challis, ID do the valve job on them and a little touch up to unshroud the chambers to the 4.5 bore. Here is how my 325's flow with the POS Indy valve job (before) and a good valve job. Note the ex/in flow ratio is pretty constant at around 82% across the lift range.

lift............before..........after

.100..........69/61.........80/68
.200........144/123......158/134
.300........215/172......226/183
.400........274/217......277/229
.500........321/251......320/265
.600........346/280......349/290
.700........362/301......368/307
.800........372/317......372/327

My heads have the 2.18 intakes. Jim experimented with dropping a 2.25 valve in without changing the seat. These are the results (I think he used a different cylinder as the before numbers are a little different):

i also run the r2 cam, w/1.5 rockers. i have a bigger one i havent run yet that is a 112 separation .750 lift that might be good in a bigger engine

i dont remember my flow numbers off my head, they was flowed as soon as i got them from indy, there has been a valve job on them since then

Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 09:43 PM

I have 1.6 HS lifters and talking lash from the roller lifters into account I have right around .700 lift on both I and E. I can't wait to get this engine in my Demon but that will need a different (bigger for sure) radiator. I will be using 2 1/8 Mazzolini (TTI) semi-fenderwells.

I bought a World block because I heard too many horror stories about aluminum blocks not keeping the cylinders round without a fill. 200 lbs is a pretty high price to pay though for round walls. My 499 Keith Black block has a fill and seems to be OK but it gets warm driving on the street.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 09:56 PM

Quote:

I have 1.6 HS lifters and talking lash from the roller lifters into account I have right around .700 lift on both I and E. I can't wait to get this engine in my Demon but that will need a different (bigger for sure) radiator. I will be using 2 1/8 Mazzolini (TTI) semi-fenderwells.

I bought a World block because I heard too many horror stories about aluminum blocks not keeping the cylinders round without a fill. 200 lbs is a pretty high price to pay though for round walls. My 499 Keith Black block has a fill and seems to be OK but it gets warm driving on the street.

Don't believe everything you hear about round walls.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/22/14 10:01 PM

Just depends on the other parts in the combo. You can crutch the smaller heads with extra valve lift, more compression, better oil control, etc.

I pushed my EZ heads up over 900 hp by working on everything other than the heads.

Posted By: 68roadrunner

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/23/14 03:17 AM

Quote:

Just depends on the other parts in the combo. You can crutch the smaller heads with extra valve lift, more compression, better oil control, etc.

I pushed my EZ heads up over 900 hp by working on everything other than the heads. [/quot

was thinking about that, open the valve further and hold it longer

how much torque will i gain going with more stroke like the 4.25 or 4.5

Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/23/14 04:37 PM

I went with a 4.25 stroke because of piston speed and the availability of a windage tray that would fit the 4.25 crank. My rods are 7.1 long and the wrist pin is not in the oil groove. Biggest error on the motor was the 14-1 CR as that darn C-16 is pretty expensive.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/23/14 10:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Gregsdart runs the 440-1 heads an make somewhere around 900hp, so I would imagine your combination isn't maxed out. Generally speaking, adding more cubic inches will bring down your peak power RPM as you stated. If all else remains the same, I would imagine the gains would be minimal.
Here's a for you

You could send them out to have them ported to the max, if the 325 has enough meat left in them. Do they have the 2.25 intake valves? That would be my first move. Consider buying the valves a touch longer for better installed height if you are going up in valve size. It is tough (maybe impossible)to get more than 2.050 out of the standard length valves. I have plus retainers and keepers to get there.
I started with a max ported 440-1 and told the porter that I wanted lots of runner volume for Alky, and they run pretty good for a 528 cube motor. I also run the 3X intake.

this combo is no where close to max effort, and dont intend to get it on the edge,i want my engine to go 600 passes without any problem. no they are not 2.25 valves, there is alot that could be done these apparently. i also run alky but mine is carburated. so i can make 900hp with these heads, just need some good head work.

so if i put these heads on 540-572 as they are i will still be below 800hp is that what we think?

thanks guys

I am guessing that 800 hp will be close. The head flow just isn't enough to support more. By porting the heads as far as you can, you can run a less aggressive lobe profile on the cam to help get you the life you want out of the motor. That doesn't mean less duration on the cam, just a slower rate opening the valves to not beat everything up as quick.
For max number of runs, I would go as large as I could on the short block (572) port the heads with 2.25 intake valves and pick the cam gears and converter to go with them. The rpm range should be about 6700 max shift points, which will help the motor live. The torque is going to max out at about 5,000 rpm or less, so gearing may need to change, and the converter for sure.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/23/14 11:06 PM

Quote:

I went with a 4.25 stroke because of piston speed and the availability of a windage tray that would fit the 4.25 crank. My rods are 7.1 long and the wrist pin is not in the oil groove. Biggest error on the motor was the 14-1 CR as that darn C-16 is pretty expensive.

I use the stock stroke Mopar windage trays in my BB Mopar stroker motors with the BB Chev rod journal sizes, 2.200 with forged H beam rods. My 400 block with a 4.300 stroke clear okay by a little bit by adding two extra Fel Pro thick oil pan gaskets between the block and the windage tary

Lots of ways to skin the kitty

I used a stock internal Mopar 3/8 oil pickup also

Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 04/24/14 09:08 PM

I didn't know how good those 325 440-1s flow until I looked at ported B1 MO ported flows. My heads beat at all but the highest lifts - and well exceed on the ex side. Jim said the heads should support 900+ HP. We'll see, but you should be fine especially if the guy who did your valves did a good job.

http://www.brodix.com/heads/ford-mopar/b1-series/nggallery/image/b1-mo-intake

You have to click on the flow link.

Posted By: jafr

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/14/14 12:55 AM

I am building the same motor as Lee what do you guys think as far as camshaft?

Lee, I hurt the 512 Saturday. Luckily we made a split at 4. I took the indy block and crank to Saint Louis today.

Posted By: LSP

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/14/14 01:15 AM

Quote:

the question is when running a smaller head than the cubic inch requires what does it do beside lowering the torque curve..

i have the 325cc -1 heads on my stock block 499, with the weight to et formula it makes 735hp. so thats a little less than 1.5 hp per ci

going to build a larger engine with a aluminum block i can build it any size, but will the heads limit the hp at a certain point? will i still gain some hp even with to small a head.

cant really afford more heads yet, just wanting that stock block out of there before it gives up.

thanks for some input.

If you think the head's too small, put some longer lobes in it.

Posted By: Bigcube

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/14/14 02:10 AM

My combo was head limited at 557 cubes. I have a 4.5" stroke with 4.440 bore. Last time I was running at the track it was consistent 9.0 car and dipped into the 8's a couple of times on a good track. It made right around 850 HP and race weight was 3000#. I have hand ported -1 heads. It was ~15:1 with a .750/.720 cam. Peak HP 850@7200 and peak TQ 722@5500. Build as big as you can, you can always swap pistons/heads later. I'm in the process of taming it for pump gas and street use, I can't wait to see how it does at 11:1 and 93 octane gas

Picture is my head flow data from 2 different benches. MCH exhaust numbers are with a short header tube, PRH ex numbers don't have a tube attached.

Posted By: 68roadrunner

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/15/14 05:21 AM

Quote:

I am building the same motor as Lee what do you guys think as far as camshaft?

Lee, I hurt the 512 Saturday. Luckily we made a split at 4. I took the indy block and crank to Saint Louis today.

that sucks, dad said you had problems, is it fixable?

how long will it take them on the indy block?

bigcube give us some cam numbers

Posted By: Bigcube

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/15/14 11:52 AM

The cam that was in it was .753I/.730E, duration @ .050 is 281I/288E and it was 112 deg lobe separation. Mine is a KB block and I went with 4.440 bore to leave a little room to grow just in case I need to bore it.

Posted By: jafr

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/15/14 04:16 PM

Thanks BigCube, that is pretty close to what I was thinking on camshaft.

Lee, it broke the head off off #7 exhaust valve, cracked the cylinder and piston. It tagged all the exhaust valves but truthfully didn't hurt the head that bad, I think a new exhaust seat and some new valves and the heads will be ok. I got lucky it sat the head of the valve in the seat. The heads are on their way to Huntsville Engines, Andy says 2-3 weeks on those. The aluminum block and crankshaft should be ready for me to pick up in 2-3 weeks also. I'm hoping what I won Saturday will pay the machine shop bills!
I think the 511 is repairable but won't know for sure till I get it completely tore down. The timing cover is pushed out to the back of the water pump in a perfect circle, I think as strange as it sounds that the lifters jumped lobes and that is why it touched all the exhaust valves.
I was using a chrome stock type timing cover with no support in front of it. Normally I run an aluminum cover or a piece of aluminum angle bolted to the cover bolts.

Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/15/14 06:09 PM

Is that a chebby head cause I NEVER see any Mopar stuff at Huntsville engines? For that matter I NEVER see them doing much besides working on tube racks. I dropped a set of SB heads there once while Gerry Reavis was still alive for them to check the valve spring pressures and flow - 3 weeks later they hadn't done it.

GL with the rebuild.

Posted By: jafr

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/16/14 03:57 PM

LOL, no they are 440-1s. They repaired a set of SR heads for me last year and completely rebuilt a chamber.

Attached picture 8146297-head2.jpg

Posted By: jafr

Re: cyl. heads size and ci. - 05/16/14 03:59 PM

After picture!

Attached picture 8146298-photo(1).JPG