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Water leak. any ideas? UPDATED.

Posted By: rebel

Water leak. any ideas? UPDATED. - 04/20/14 07:33 AM

i bought an engine last year from a member on here. it was a fresh build with newish looking parts from a proper engine builder. the engine has constantly leaked water into the oil from day one. i'm down under so there's no chance of any recourse from the build so i had to pull the engine & go searching myself.
originally i thought the machined surface on the alloy heads was too rough for cometic gasket to seal so i had them replaned to a smoother surface. that made zero difference so now the engines out on the stand being stripped.
on the strip down, when i pulled the oil pan i saw a water smear of oil/water coming from the front of the block on the pan. looking around the bottom of the cam chain saw more mixture, i though i was onto something. removed the front timing cover & we had a small amount of mixture but no sign of where it may have come from. there's no galleries in this section so i'm confused. anybody seen anything like this before?

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Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 07:34 AM

this is the sight i saw from the bottom. thought i was onto something.

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Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 07:35 AM

cover off & it makes it look like the cam is leaking water????

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Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 07:36 AM

the block doesn't show anything obvious.

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Posted By: 8urvette

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 09:01 AM

my guess is that is just being tossed up there by the cam. you can do essentially a cooling system pressure test. Where u plug the water inlets and outlets, and pump air (manually) into one of the water passages and listen for the air leak.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 01:43 PM

I always put a can/bottle of Stop Leak in every rebuild
on my junk... never had any water issues
Posted By: AAR-B4

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 01:53 PM

That is a head scratcher.......

When you removed the heads, any indication that a gasket was leaking into the lifter valley?
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 02:17 PM

I'd check for a crack in the lifter valley sides. You may have to do a pressure check and heat the block for it to appear.
Might be more pronounced with the heads bolted on and torqued so get a visual before yanking the heads.

Sorry to see and hope it's a simple fix
Posted By: mac56

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 02:34 PM

I agree the spots you are seeing the sludge may just be from windage. The cometics can be a pita to seal even with the right finish. Copper coat helps and as Mr. P said stop leak can also help with this. When I had a water problem once the machine shop told me gm repair manual specs stop leak in all their aluminum heads engines.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 04:53 PM

Quote:

my guess is that is just being tossed up there by the cam. you can do essentially a cooling system pressure test. Where u plug the water inlets and outlets, and pump air (manually) into one of the water passages and listen for the air leak.

If nothing is obvious, pressure check is the best way to find it.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 07:51 PM

Pressure testing BB and Hemi engines is pretty easy. I sell a simple tool that bolts on to the water pump mounting surface. Just hit it with a little air pressure and look/listen for the leak.

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Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 11:51 PM

Quote:

That is a head scratcher.......

When you removed the heads, any indication that a gasket was leaking into the lifter valley?



no, the copper coat on the gasket was rather fresh so it left a nice imprint on the head & the block. i've ruled out a head gasket leak already.
Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 11:53 PM

Quote:

I always put a can/bottle of Stop Leak in every rebuild
on my junk... never had any water issues




did that at the start but it didn't fix anything.
Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/20/14 11:59 PM

Quote:

Pressure testing BB and Hemi engines is pretty easy. I sell a simple tool that bolts on to the water pump mounting surface. Just hit it with a little air pressure and look/listen for the leak.



i made a fitting for the pump connection yesterday a bit like that. i'm going to bolt my Torque plate on the block with another gasket so it's sealed up & give it a go with water pressure. one of my crew does testing of water mains so he has the tools. we'll test it to 20psi later in the week. if it's not the block we'll do the heads next. seems strange that the milky oil is only at one end. this i why i think its local to that part of the engine.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/21/14 08:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

That is a head scratcher.......

When you removed the heads, any indication that a gasket was leaking into the lifter valley?



no, the copper coat on the gasket was rather fresh so it left a nice imprint on the head & the block. i've ruled out a head gasket leak already.



what tests did you do to rule out a head gasket leak?

A pin hole would be very hard to see and may only leak when hot Just wondering.
Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/21/14 09:10 AM

we had used a sealant in the water & the mark the sealant left at the gasket edge was a real rigid line, no chance of it leaking past the Cometic gasket. especially with the nice imprint the copper coat left on the faces with these gaskets, this motor didn't even leave the workshop after we had planned the head & had done tests. the water leak was sizable, not just a little weep. i'm a Cometic gasket veteran, with my Indy motor used 1 set of gaskets 9 times before we developed a leak, i'm good at looking at these parts.
Posted By: sleddinfool

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/22/14 01:33 AM

Going off of bad memory here... When I picked my engine up, I was blabbing with the builder about weird builds. He says he had one that there was some type of plug back in behind the oil pump that had a whole drilled too deep and into the water jacket.. Not sure if it was a BB or a SB.. He said it was an easy fix by either filling the hole with sealer or tapping it and putting a plug in it?? Kevin
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/22/14 04:24 AM

That sludge reminds me of the same looking stuff I use to see in the top of my valve covers when I ran the vacupan vent system from the header collectors to the valve cover breather caps. I ended up removing the rubber tubes to the header collectors and the sludge went away IHTHs, most of the blocks, heads or head gaskets I had cooling system leaks with got worst, not like yours Do you have a vacume pump fitting in the fuel pump block off plate? Does water get sprayed onto the timing cover between rounds when you cool it down The motor is talking to us, now if we can just figure out what it is saying Good luck, keep us in the loop
Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/24/14 11:13 PM

we did the water pressure test last night, found the source of the water. it seems that the #6 bore has a crack in it. the water/oil sludge residue in the front must has been driven there by windage from the front of the windage tray. so it looks like its sleeve time for #6. the block had been 1/2 filled to a point nearly 1 1/4" above the crack so we were surprised water could creep down there. now i'm wondering if this had been done to fix this problem in the first place.

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Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/24/14 11:22 PM

Quote:

we did the water pressure test last night, found the source of the water. it seems that the #6 bore has a crack in it. the water/oil sludge residue in the front must has been driven there by windage from the front of the windage tray. so it looks like its sleeve time for #6. the block had been 1/2 filled to a point nearly 1 1/4" above the crack so we were surprised water could creep down there. now i'm wondering if this had been done to fix this problem in the first place.



Thats a big crack... what I've seen on filled blocks
is that it shrinks a bit and doesnt seem to make a
total contact to the cyl walls... I've seen multiple
filled blocks leak water if a cyl cracks
Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/25/14 01:37 AM

i bought this engine from a member on here. it came from his engine builder when the deal was done. i'm starting to think i got shafted on this deal as it's been a pig right from the start. problem with being on the other side of the globe i can't get any recourse from this. looks like it's a suck it up n pay to get it fixed deal.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/25/14 01:43 AM

Quote:

i bought this engine from a member on here. it came from his engine builder when the deal was done. i'm starting to think i got shafted on this deal as it's been a pig right from the start. problem with being on the other side of the globe i can't get any recourse from this. looks like it's a suck it up n pay to get it fixed deal.



I dont know about over there but a sleeve is $100
and thats what I would do.. I've done it on filled
blocks before(had it done)
Posted By: cudadon

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/25/14 04:13 PM

Quote:

i bought this engine from a member on here. it came from his engine builder when the deal was done. i'm starting to think i got shafted on this deal as it's been a pig right from the start. problem with being on the other side of the globe i can't get any recourse from this. looks like it's a suck it up n pay to get it fixed deal.



I think you should disclose WHO sold it to you.
This could save someone else from a BAD deal!

Did you get it for a cheap price? (doesn't look good now though)
Don

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Posted By: mac56

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/26/14 02:02 AM

Been there done that. IMHO just move on especially because of where you are. The energy you spend trying to figure out whose fault it is can be better spent getting it back together. I think it was mentioned early an inspection is cheap piece of mind then you know exactly what you have not I wonder if this was a problem from the get go.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/26/14 02:38 AM

It only takes a couple of minutes to pressure check a big block so my advice is to always check a new engine before firing it. I pressure check my dyno mule before and after every trip to the dyno.

That is a really nasty looking crack but a sleeve should save the block and then you'll be back to racing. You'll probably want to replace the bearings while you're in there, the rings might be okay to reuse.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/26/14 03:52 AM

Quote:

i bought this engine from a member on here. it came from his engine builder when the deal was done. i'm starting to think i got shafted on this deal as it's been a pig right from the start. problem with being on the other side of the globe i can't get any recourse from this. looks like it's a suck it up n pay to get it fixed deal.



Did you run this engine after you bought it
Posted By: rebel

Re: Water leak. any ideas? - 04/26/14 05:08 AM

yes Mr P i did. when i received the engine, it was obvious the heads were brand new & had been ported, i pulled the oil pan & checked things from underneath. the bearings were new, pistons looked new. the lower section of the bores looked brand new as well. with the engine being wrapped up like it was, i assumed the seller was correct in saying it was ready to go. all it needed was an intake manifold & a distributor & water pump & it was complete. we could even tell it had run in grease on the Purple shaft cam.
i pulled the springs & fitted some weak outters to run the cam in, refitted the springs supplied & took the car for a drive around our country roads. it never liked coming back to an idle after it had been cruising.
i was plagued with a few problems with other components in the early part. the Dominator was constantly misbehaving so i sold it & bought a new 950 Quickfuel which did run better but not by a great deal. the starter motor had a failure, but it was new so it got replaced. the battery was having issues but that turned out to be the alternator which i replaced with a new one along with the battery.
the car, my '71 'cuda had been in hibernation for a decade so i was chasing other issues before i concluded it was the engine itself. i made 3 passes down the track in this time before pulling the engine,
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