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Torqueflite front drums

Posted By: quickd100

Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 03:16 PM

With the occasional torqueflite explosions we hear about I've got a few questions. How much rpm will a stock front clutch drum withstand before you have to head for the bomb shelter? I know no one can give an exact RPM figure but has anyone spun one up on purpose and a machine to see what they'll take?
I should be heading to the strip with my timebomb in June sometime. I've been shortshifting it at 7000 rpm and may try some different shift points but I'd rather not blow a tranny. AND YES, I'm running a Lofgren trans blanket just in case. AND, I've got the low band apply in 1st. Dave
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 03:28 PM

over at moparchat there is alot about it. this is the little bit i know about it. the drum spins at 2 1/2 times the engine rpm's which they are capable of handling untill the sprag fails and the rpm gets out of hand. yes there are tests on it. anything that unloads the sprag fast will hurt it. like a broken driveshaft or ujoints, axles, ring and pinion etc. a burnout in first gear where the sprag freewheels then stops when you hit the dry pavemant. short shifting at 7000rpm's is impressive to me.
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 03:34 PM

Here you go.
Drum destructive test
Posted By: Efidart

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 04:13 PM

I think bob's post should read :
When the sprag fails the rpm gets out of hand, the drum will spin at 2.2 times the engine rpm's which some are capable of handling, but some explode.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 04:22 PM

Thanks Leigh! 14,000, so 7000rpm is more than enough to send one to the promised land if the overrunning clutch fails. I'll cinch the blanket down extra tight before heading out to the strip. Dave
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 07:35 PM

To help understand what is needed or not I've tried below to explain the problem of sprag roller clutch failure on a Torqueflite.
Let's see if I can go through this sprag clutch/drum explosion Torqueflite scenario and explain why the drum "may" explode with a sprag clutch failure and what can be done to help prevent this type of failure. This is going to be long and pretty basic for many, but you really should understand how something operates before you can take steps to prevent problems.

First off, a short tutorial on planetary gearsets. Planetary gearsets consist of a central sun gear that is in constant mesh with two or more planetary gears that "orbit" the sun gear and are in turn in constant mesh with and enlosed by an outer ring gear. Various gear ratios and direction changes can be seen by holding one member, driving another and taking the output off the remaining member. No need to go into specifics but the main idea with a planetary gearset is that in order to work one member is held while another is driven. The only exception is if two members are driven then the entire gearset turns as a unit (1:1 ratio).

In a Torqueflite there are two plantary sets mounted together that share a common sun gear. This arrangement is known as a Simpson geartrain and is also common in Ford C4's and C6's and many other automatics. Two planetary sets are required in order to get the required number and ratios needed for use in an automatic. Clutches in automatic transmissions are used to drive OR hold a planetary element while bands and sprag clutches are strictly holding devices. The torqueflite Front Clutch(sometimes refered to as the High/Reverse clutch) is the drive device for the common sun gear. The Rear clutch is the driving member for the front planetary ring gear. The intermediate or kickdown band is the holding device for the common sun gear while the rear band and the sprag clutch share the holding duties for the rear planetary carrier. The output members are the front planetary carrier and the rear planetary ring gear(splined to the output shaft).

Now I could go through the various power flows while in different gears, but for this discussion it is more important to know what clutches, bands and sprag clutches are in play and what happens when a sprag fails. Sprag clutches are basically one way clutches that allow movement in one direction only. The "Sprag" in a torqueflite is not a true sprag but a roller clutch. It works by forcing rollers up on hardened ramps that in turn cinch down on an inner race stopping it's rotating motion in one direction. If the rotating motion on this roller clutch reverses direction, the holding force is immediately released. This is one of the main reasons for it's use in an automatic, the instant release feature when the load is removed makes it simpler to adjust shift firmness as there is no overlap to contend with.

Torqueflite's use a roller clutch that is mounted in the rear of the case. The outer race of this clutch which contains the ramps is splined to the case. Clamped between the case and the outer race is a metal retainer that has small "legs" that are bent upwards betweeen the ramps and the inner race of the clutch. These "legs" are the anchor for the wave springs that serve to push the clutch rollers up the ramps when the inner race tries to turn clockwise and thus clamp the inner race from turning. If there is a counter clockwise motion on the inner race, the rollers push back down the ramp and collapse the wave springs and release the inner race.

One last thing to know is what devices are in play when in various gears. First off a stock transmission.


Shift lever in Drive, Low gear - Rear Clutch and Roller Clutch
Shift lever in Drive, 2nd gear - Rear Clutch and Intermediate band
Shift lever in Drive, 3rd gear - Rear Clutch and Front Clutch
Shift lever in reverse - Front Clutch and Rear Band applied

Shift lever in Low (1) - Rear Clutch and Rear band+roller clutch

With the shift lever in 2, the car will start in low just like it would in the drive position, shift to 2nd and stay in that gear.

For a manual valve body, the difference is all the automatic features have been removed so putting the lever in low, the car starts and remains in low until the shift lever is moved. In second, the car starts in second and stays in second while in third or drive, the unit starts and stays in third. The difference in the Low Band Apply (LBA) valve bodies is that they apply the rear band in low while the non-LBA valve bodies do NOT apply the rear band in low. This is an important difference as you will see shortly. The reason for the non-LBA manual valve bodies is to speed up the one-two shift since there is no overlap to contend with using the roller clutch as a holding device.

Now we have all the basics in place we can continue with what happens that causes a roller clutch failure and ultimately a Front Clutch drum explosion. Anytime there is an excessive shock applied to the roller clutch there is a possibility of the shock load being transmitted to the "legs" that hold the springs in the roller clutch. This shock could be something breaking in the drivetrain, the tires suddenly gripping coming out of the water box etc. The key is the sudden shock load is only a problem when the vehicle is in low gear and utilizing the roller clutch only as the holding device. If you break an axle or shock the trans coming out of the burnout box in second gear, there is little to no chance of damaging the roller clutch. This is why the old-timers will say to always do a burnout with a Torqueflite in second gear and never roll out of the burnout box while letting off the throttle allowing the tires to grab suddenly. Same goes for the LBA valve bodies with low gear burnouts or driveline breakage. Since the rear band is also applied there is less of a chance of damaging the roller clutch because the band is assisting and absorbing some of that shock.

The above explains what not to do, but what happens if you disregard this advice and shock the driveline? Again, the problem is the small tin legs in the roller clutch. The shock load can bend these legs back which reduces the spring pressure on the rollers. Now the rollers are not being pushed up the ramp or can simply flip out of place which in turn allows the inner race to rotate in the direction it would normally be locked. The problem with this is that now the wheels become the holding device and the weels are connected to the output shaft which is spined to the front planet carrier as well as the rear ring gear. If you follow the power flow with the Rear clutch applied and the front planet held and calculate the ratios involved, you will see that this combination results in the Front Clutch drum rotating in reverse at a ratio of over 2 times the input speed. The stock clutch drums in a Torqueflite are made of powdered iron, basically iron filings that have been heated and squeezed into shape. It's a cheap way to make complex shapes but it is not as strong as a billet piece. At some RPM point these powdered iron pieces fly apart with devastating power.

So what do you need to do to minimize the chance of witnessing first hand one of these explosions? If you read and undertood the above, you can see that a simple bolt in sprag/roller clutch will do little to nothing to prevent a roller clutch failure of this type. Rarely is the problem of the outerrace turning in the case a factor in a drum explosion. Not to say that a bolt in roller clutch is not a good thing, just that it will not help with this type of failure. The stock and most aftermarket roller clutches for the 727 utilize 12 rollers and springs. The super sprags from A&A and Coan have 16 elements. These units may offer some relief from this type of sprag failure simply because with the added elements there is less room for the legs to bend back far enough to allow the rollers to slip or fall out of place. The 16 element clutches are probably a good idea not only for this reason but also their added holding power. Next would be to consider a billet aluminum, steel or steel jacketed aluminum front clutch drum that will handle the extreme RPM that a roller clutch failure may transmit to the front drum. A trans blanket or shield is always a good idea and a requirement in some classes. Last of all, heed the advice of the old-timers!! They've run these 727's for years and still have their toes. Knowing how to do a burnout properly and checking the roller clutch after any driveline failure regardless of what parts you have in the transmission only makes good sense.

Lastly, the LBA valve bodies can also help prevent drum explosions because as mentioned they reduce the shock to the sprag. They may not totally eliminate the possibility of a roller clutch failure but even if the roller clutch did fail, the band would hold enough to reduce the overall freewheeling of the rear planet carrier that would in turn reduce the RPM of the front clutch drum.

Hope this helps clairify some of the misconceptions that the TF is a timebomb just waiting to explode.
Posted By: chargerron69

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 08:10 PM

chanes are that if you roll the sprag, your gonna blow it on the line not goin down the track.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/26/08 11:12 PM

You're correct. Since it's a low gear problem, it's going to show right at the initial hit.
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 11:00 AM

OK ...so what is the rpm number that the billet aluminum drum comes apart ? Somewhere I think I heard 24,000.

Sooooo .... unless I spin my Mopar-moder up-to 10,000 rpm ...... I am "safe" ?

This does not say that I do not want to run any safety equipment like a shield .... but I want to be "safe" from any damage to the trans case, valve body, alum trans pan and a hi-$ converter.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 01:51 PM

TCS has this data on thier website, but in thier testing, here's what they found:

Stock Iron drum failed at 14,000 RPM
Aluminum drum with steel jacket 22,640 RPM
All Steel Drum 25,000 RPM
All Aluminum Drum 36,550 RPM
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 01:56 PM

That was some of the best info ever written on the 727 I have ever read. Thank you.
Posted By: CJK440

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 02:11 PM

Quote:

and never roll out of the burnout box while letting off the throttle allowing the tires to grab suddenly.




This is only when in low gear right?
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 02:37 PM

Quote:

That was some of the best info ever written on the 727 I have ever read. Thank you.




Thanks
Posted By: RADAMX

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 02:54 PM

I have had a stock drum up to 8400 rpm .at least untill I stripped out a planetary spline.
That being said I now have a aluminum drum and I sleep a lot better.
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 03:14 PM

One of the times I had a roller clutch, or sprag, failure was after installing a 33X10.5 tire on the car. I was able to 60 ft. in the teens with 31" tires but wanted the larger tire. The very first trip to the HOUSE OF HOOK, Peidmont Dragway, I ripped the sprag out of the case blowing peices of sprag through the case and into the sheetmetal. The valve body was a TCI made by Tranzact but, was mot a Low Band Apply in 1st gear. Thank God I was smart enough to have and Alluminum Drum. I have seen stock drums in transmissions explode with blankets and still dame chassis and floor pans.

I prefer the alluminum drum not just because of the higher RPM explosion resistance. But, if it were to explode it will be like alluminum rods breaking compared to steel. You may have to replace the tranny but the car will be fine.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 05:35 PM

Correct.
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 10:35 PM

So ...unless you spin your motor over 14,500 rpm and then have a sprag failure - there is no way to typically "explode" a 727 ?

I have seen my share of the "stocker" drums coming apart. The last one was at Milan Dragway in a Duster. Even with a blanket ... it blew-apart a fiberglass dash and shattered the windshield !
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 11:01 PM

I'm sure there are many other ways to blow up a 727, but roller clutch failure and overspeed of the front drum is what was explained above. The usual scenario is a driveline failure of some sort that damages the roller clutch. The drum explosion does not usually occur at this time but instead the next time the car is launched. The roller may hold even when damaged but then suddently fail under load. Since this load is most likely a low gear launch, your foot is on the floor when the roller fails sending your engine screaming onto the rev limiter. Remember that there is a ratio involved so if the engine hits 7000 the drum is rotating the opposite direction at 2.2 times that speed or 15,400 RPM. This is well above the 14K limit seen by the tests TCS had done. That's why it is wise to inspect your Torqueflite after a drivline failure.
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 11:40 PM

Quote:

So ...unless you spin your motor over 14,500 rpm and then have a sprag failure - there is no way to typically "explode" a 727 ?

I have seen my share of the "stocker" drums coming apart. The last one was at Milan Dragway in a Duster. Even with a blanket ... it blew-apart a fiberglass dash and shattered the windshield !




Well, did you read the specifics on the failure testing? 14,000 equals approx 6400 rpm, which any bone yard mill can hack up to.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/03/08 11:46 PM

the engines rev so fast and faster with more power if you get out of the throttle later than .5 secandsi bet its done depending on the launch RPM my point is if there was a interupt that would kill the ignition if the engine reved past a set RPM speed rate. i think i have herd of 1 but not sure.
ps i guess that would be traction controle!
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/04/08 12:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

So ...unless you spin your motor over 14,500 rpm and then have a sprag failure - there is no way to typically "explode" a 727 ?

I have seen my share of the "stocker" drums coming apart. The last one was at Milan Dragway in a Duster. Even with a blanket ... it blew-apart a fiberglass dash and shattered the windshield !




Well, did you read the specifics on the failure testing? 14,000 equals approx 6400 rpm, which any bone yard mill can hack up to.




Just to clarify ...I am talking about using ONLY an alum front drum.
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/04/08 12:57 PM

Yes with alluminum drum that figure would be about right.

Anybody that thinks they can stop drum explosions with a rev limiter is just simply wrong.

One reason it has little to do with engine speed.

Your engine is not mechanically connected to your front drum. The torque converter, fluid coupling, is between the two. When the sprag fails the tailshaft spins at an uncontrollable speed. Multiply that by 2.44 if you are using stock gear ratio's. That is what the drum will spin.

The other reason is just because you rev limit the engine RPM does not mean it will not go over that RPM. With all the new MSD tricks we can rev limit throughout a run. With a Data Recorder you can see what actually happens with the engine speed and driveshaft. I'm hear to tell you, just because you have a 6,000 pill in the rev limiter, to say do a burnout, does not mean the engine will never get over 6,000. It does mean the ignition will not provide spark over 6,000. Some folks run a Data recorder on the input shaft of the tranny. I have seen data showing extreme RPM when something breaks in the driveline of cars running torque converters.

Not trying to be smart ellic, just trying to prevent anyone from assuming safety when they don't have it.

Leon
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/04/08 02:05 PM

Great advice except one thing. When you say "the sprag fails the tailshaft spins at an uncontrollable speed." that's not exactly true. When something in the driveline breaks, the tailshaft may spin up and damage the sprag/roller but when the sprag/roller fails the tailshaft becomes the held member in the planetary set while the front drum becomes the output member spinning at 2.2-2.45 times the engine speed.

440..guy, another thing to note. Aluminum drum is not a good choice for street. They do wear considerably more than a steel or steel jacketed drum requiring more frequent band adjustments and fluid changes.
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/04/08 03:00 PM

Been a few years sense I worked on a 727 and I can't remember without looking at one in the shop. What the sprag actaully holds I'm not sure, thanks for correcting me, but if the shaft is secured by the failing sprag then that makes my point in judging the speed of the front drum and how you can't specify. Sort-of like smacking a toy prop with your finger. It spins faster than the finger that hit it.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/04/08 07:29 PM


When the sprag fails the front drum is driven at 2.2 times input shaft speed when using stock ratios. Same ratio as Reverse.

Since the gears are in constant mesh the ratio is consistent.
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/05/08 09:47 AM

Quote:

Great advice except one thing. When you say "the sprag fails the tailshaft spins at an uncontrollable speed." that's not exactly true. When something in the driveline breaks, the tailshaft may spin up and damage the sprag/roller but when the sprag/roller fails the tailshaft becomes the held member in the planetary set while the front drum becomes the output member spinning at 2.2-2.45 times the engine speed.

440..guy, another thing to note. Aluminum drum is not a good choice for street. They do wear considerably more than a steel or steel jacketed drum requiring more frequent band adjustments and fluid changes.




PC ...indeed - the tailshaft is held. Unless the driveshaft is spit-out in the process. But then the driver is not paying attention.

My application is not street ... it is a very light-weight fun car that I will have the trans between my legs. Yes I am concerned for my safety but also do not want to have any probs or issues with the trans either. This 727 will be a 62-65 with a shortie kit and I don't want to take any chances hurting these parts that are very costly or can not be replaced.

A steel JACKETED alum drum? ... who makes that?
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/05/08 11:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Great advice except one thing. When you say "the sprag fails the tailshaft spins at an uncontrollable speed." that's not exactly true. When something in the driveline breaks, the tailshaft may spin up and damage the sprag/roller but when the sprag/roller fails the tailshaft becomes the held member in the planetary set while the front drum becomes the output member spinning at 2.2-2.45 times the engine speed.

440..guy, another thing to note. Aluminum drum is not a good choice for street. They do wear considerably more than a steel or steel jacketed drum requiring more frequent band adjustments and fluid changes.




PC ...indeed - the tailshaft is held. Unless the driveshaft is spit-out in the process. But then the driver is not paying attention.

My application is not street ... it is a very light-weight fun car that I will have the trans between my legs. Yes I am concerned for my safety but also do not want to have any probs or issues with the trans either. This 727 will be a 62-65 with a shortie kit and I don't want to take any chances hurting these parts that are very costly or can not be replaced.

A steel JACKETED alum drum? ... who makes that?




just get a billet steel drum from CRT!
no wear plroblems like the aluminum, and just as strong, if not stronger.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/05/08 03:05 PM

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/05/08 04:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Great advice except one thing. When you say "the sprag fails the tailshaft spins at an uncontrollable speed." that's not exactly true. When something in the driveline breaks, the tailshaft may spin up and damage the sprag/roller but when the sprag/roller fails the tailshaft becomes the held member in the planetary set while the front drum becomes the output member spinning at 2.2-2.45 times the engine speed.

440..guy, another thing to note. Aluminum drum is not a good choice for street. They do wear considerably more than a steel or steel jacketed drum requiring more frequent band adjustments and fluid changes.




PC ...indeed - the tailshaft is held. Unless the driveshaft is spit-out in the process. But then the driver is not paying attention.

My application is not street ... it is a very light-weight fun car that I will have the trans between my legs. Yes I am concerned for my safety but also do not want to have any probs or issues with the trans either. This 727 will be a 62-65 with a shortie kit and I don't want to take any chances hurting these parts that are very costly or can not be replaced.

A steel JACKETED alum drum? ... who makes that?




just get a billet steel drum from CRT!
no wear plroblems like the aluminum, and just as strong, if not stronger.


i put a billet steel crt drum in my pile after a guy at our track lunched his stock drum, taking out his carbon fibre shield, punching a hole in his floor and his foot, and filling his car with FIRE!
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/05/08 05:17 PM

Altho I am a 904 guy, this is some very good information that I feel need's to be eventually put in the tech archive's and saved.
Posted By: 727specialist

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/05/08 10:11 PM

Quote:

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369




The full metal jacket drum is the way to go if you want to replace the ft retainer. It will hold five or six clutches. It is lighter than the steel drum and doesn't contaminate the fluid like the aluminum drum.
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 02:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369




The full metal jacket drum is the way to go if you want to replace the ft retainer. It will hold five or six clutches. It is lighter than the steel drum and doesn't contaminate the fluid like the aluminum drum.




correct me if I am wrong - bt cant you buy 2 billet steel drums for the price of one jacketed one?
Posted By: 727specialist

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 03:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369




The full metal jacket drum is the way to go if you want to replace the ft retainer. It will hold five or six clutches. It is lighter than the steel drum and doesn't contaminate the fluid like the aluminum drum.




correct me if I am wrong - bt cant you buy 2 billet steel drums for the price of one jacketed one?



The steel drum may be a little cheaper than the full metal jacket drum but that is not the point at least to me.

The drum gets stopped in second gear and has to start moving in third gear.
With that in mind the lighter drum is the better choice.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 04:06 AM

Less rotational weight = faster = more $$$. Plus the process of putting a steel band on an aluminum drum and having it stay there would also cost $$$.

Kevin
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 04:10 AM

Quote:

To help understand what is needed or not I've tried below to explain the problem of sprag roller clutch failure on a Torqueflite.
Let's see if I can go through this sprag clutch/drum explosion Torqueflite scenario and explain why the drum "may" explode with a sprag clutch failure and what can be done to help prevent this type of failure. This is going to be long and pretty basic for many, but you really should understand how something operates before you can take steps to prevent problems.

First off, a short tutorial on planetary gearsets. Planetary gearsets consist of a central sun gear that is in constant mesh with two or more planetary gears that "orbit" the sun gear and are in turn in constant mesh with and enlosed by an outer ring gear. Various gear ratios and direction changes can be seen by holding one member, driving another and taking the output off the remaining member. No need to go into specifics but the main idea with a planetary gearset is that in order to work one member is held while another is driven. The only exception is if two members are driven then the entire gearset turns as a unit (1:1 ratio).

In a Torqueflite there are two plantary sets mounted together that share a common sun gear. This arrangement is known as a Simpson geartrain and is also common in Ford C4's and C6's and many other automatics. Two planetary sets are required in order to get the required number and ratios needed for use in an automatic. Clutches in automatic transmissions are used to drive OR hold a planetary element while bands and sprag clutches are strictly holding devices. The torqueflite Front Clutch(sometimes refered to as the High/Reverse clutch) is the drive device for the common sun gear. The Rear clutch is the driving member for the front planetary ring gear. The intermediate or kickdown band is the holding device for the common sun gear while the rear band and the sprag clutch share the holding duties for the rear planetary carrier. The output members are the front planetary carrier and the rear planetary ring gear(splined to the output shaft).

Now I could go through the various power flows while in different gears, but for this discussion it is more important to know what clutches, bands and sprag clutches are in play and what happens when a sprag fails. Sprag clutches are basically one way clutches that allow movement in one direction only. The "Sprag" in a torqueflite is not a true sprag but a roller clutch. It works by forcing rollers up on hardened ramps that in turn cinch down on an inner race stopping it's rotating motion in one direction. If the rotating motion on this roller clutch reverses direction, the holding force is immediately released. This is one of the main reasons for it's use in an automatic, the instant release feature when the load is removed makes it simpler to adjust shift firmness as there is no overlap to contend with.

Torqueflite's use a roller clutch that is mounted in the rear of the case. The outer race of this clutch which contains the ramps is splined to the case. Clamped between the case and the outer race is a metal retainer that has small "legs" that are bent upwards betweeen the ramps and the inner race of the clutch. These "legs" are the anchor for the wave springs that serve to push the clutch rollers up the ramps when the inner race tries to turn clockwise and thus clamp the inner race from turning. If there is a counter clockwise motion on the inner race, the rollers push back down the ramp and collapse the wave springs and release the inner race.

One last thing to know is what devices are in play when in various gears. First off a stock transmission.


Shift lever in Drive, Low gear - Rear Clutch and Roller Clutch
Shift lever in Drive, 2nd gear - Rear Clutch and Intermediate band
Shift lever in Drive, 3rd gear - Rear Clutch and Front Clutch
Shift lever in reverse - Front Clutch and Rear Band applied

Shift lever in Low (1) - Rear Clutch and Rear band+roller clutch

With the shift lever in 2, the car will start in low just like it would in the drive position, shift to 2nd and stay in that gear.

For a manual valve body, the difference is all the automatic features have been removed so putting the lever in low, the car starts and remains in low until the shift lever is moved. In second, the car starts in second and stays in second while in third or drive, the unit starts and stays in third. The difference in the Low Band Apply (LBA) valve bodies is that they apply the rear band in low while the non-LBA valve bodies do NOT apply the rear band in low. This is an important difference as you will see shortly. The reason for the non-LBA manual valve bodies is to speed up the one-two shift since there is no overlap to contend with using the roller clutch as a holding device.

Now we have all the basics in place we can continue with what happens that causes a roller clutch failure and ultimately a Front Clutch drum explosion. Anytime there is an excessive shock applied to the roller clutch there is a possibility of the shock load being transmitted to the "legs" that hold the springs in the roller clutch. This shock could be something breaking in the drivetrain, the tires suddenly gripping coming out of the water box etc. The key is the sudden shock load is only a problem when the vehicle is in low gear and utilizing the roller clutch only as the holding device. If you break an axle or shock the trans coming out of the burnout box in second gear, there is little to no chance of damaging the roller clutch. This is why the old-timers will say to always do a burnout with a Torqueflite in second gear and never roll out of the burnout box while letting off the throttle allowing the tires to grab suddenly. Same goes for the LBA valve bodies with low gear burnouts or driveline breakage. Since the rear band is also applied there is less of a chance of damaging the roller clutch because the band is assisting and absorbing some of that shock.

The above explains what not to do, but what happens if you disregard this advice and shock the driveline? Again, the problem is the small tin legs in the roller clutch. The shock load can bend these legs back which reduces the spring pressure on the rollers. Now the rollers are not being pushed up the ramp or can simply flip out of place which in turn allows the inner race to rotate in the direction it would normally be locked. The problem with this is that now the wheels become the holding device and the weels are connected to the output shaft which is spined to the front planet carrier as well as the rear ring gear. If you follow the power flow with the Rear clutch applied and the front planet held and calculate the ratios involved, you will see that this combination results in the Front Clutch drum rotating in reverse at a ratio of over 2 times the input speed. The stock clutch drums in a Torqueflite are made of powdered iron, basically iron filings that have been heated and squeezed into shape. It's a cheap way to make complex shapes but it is not as strong as a billet piece. At some RPM point these powdered iron pieces fly apart with devastating power.

So what do you need to do to minimize the chance of witnessing first hand one of these explosions? If you read and undertood the above, you can see that a simple bolt in sprag/roller clutch will do little to nothing to prevent a roller clutch failure of this type. Rarely is the problem of the outerrace turning in the case a factor in a drum explosion. Not to say that a bolt in roller clutch is not a good thing, just that it will not help with this type of failure. The stock and most aftermarket roller clutches for the 727 utilize 12 rollers and springs. The super sprags from A&A and Coan have 16 elements. These units may offer some relief from this type of sprag failure simply because with the added elements there is less room for the legs to bend back far enough to allow the rollers to slip or fall out of place. The 16 element clutches are probably a good idea not only for this reason but also their added holding power. Next would be to consider a billet aluminum, steel or steel jacketed aluminum front clutch drum that will handle the extreme RPM that a roller clutch failure may transmit to the front drum. A trans blanket or shield is always a good idea and a requirement in some classes. Last of all, heed the advice of the old-timers!! They've run these 727's for years and still have their toes. Knowing how to do a burnout properly and checking the roller clutch after any driveline failure regardless of what parts you have in the transmission only makes good sense.

Lastly, the LBA valve bodies can also help prevent drum explosions because as mentioned they reduce the shock to the sprag. They may not totally eliminate the possibility of a roller clutch failure but even if the roller clutch did fail, the band would hold enough to reduce the overall freewheeling of the rear planet carrier that would in turn reduce the RPM of the front clutch drum.

Hope this helps clairify some of the misconceptions that the TF is a timebomb just waiting to explode.




Just wanted to save it..Thanks,
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 09:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369




The full metal jacket drum is the way to go if you want to replace the ft retainer. It will hold five or six clutches. It is lighter than the steel drum and doesn't contaminate the fluid like the aluminum drum.




correct me if I am wrong - bt cant you buy 2 billet steel drums for the price of one jacketed one?



The steel drum may be a little cheaper than the full metal jacket drum but that is not the point at least to me.

The drum gets stopped in second gear and has to start moving in third gear.
With that in mind the lighter drum is the better choice.




With a jacketed drum priced more them most transmissions & with the steel drum coming in at half the price - and for a budget minded racer, I still believe its the wise choice between looking the other way and being in the game saftely!
Hell if money's no object sure we can just goto a pro trans cant we!
Posted By: 727specialist

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 02:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369




The full metal jacket drum is the way to go if you want to replace the ft retainer. It will hold five or six clutches. It is lighter than the steel drum and doesn't contaminate the fluid like the aluminum drum.




correct me if I am wrong - bt cant you buy 2 billet steel drums for the price of one jacketed one?



The steel drum may be a little cheaper than the full metal jacket drum but that is not the point at least to me.

The drum gets stopped in second gear and has to start moving in third gear.
With that in mind the lighter drum is the better choice.




With a jacketed drum priced more them most transmissions & with the steel drum coming in at half the price - and for a budget minded racer, I still believe its the wise choice between looking the other way and being in the game saftely!
Hell if money's no object sure we can just goto a pro trans cant we!




A steel drum from TCS 535.00
The full metal jacket is 592.00
That is a difference of $35.00
You can get a race trans for the price of the full metal jacket drum Say 600.00.
A pro trans is 5500.00
That is a difference of 4900.00
I am still not getting your point.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 02:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There may be others or perhaps a sponsor here carries this one, but TCS Products in Vancouver Canada makes a steel jacketed aluminum drum they call Full Metal Jacket. Here's a link:

http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=369




The full metal jacket drum is the way to go if you want to replace the ft retainer. It will hold five or six clutches. It is lighter than the steel drum and doesn't contaminate the fluid like the aluminum drum.




correct me if I am wrong - bt cant you buy 2 billet steel drums for the price of one jacketed one?



The steel drum may be a little cheaper than the full metal jacket drum but that is not the point at least to me.

The drum gets stopped in second gear and has to start moving in third gear.
With that in mind the lighter drum is the better choice.




With a jacketed drum priced more them most transmissions & with the steel drum coming in at half the price - and for a budget minded racer, I still believe its the wise choice between looking the other way and being in the game saftely!
Hell if money's no object sure we can just goto a pro trans cant we!




A steel drum from TCS 535.00
The full metal jacket is 592.00
That is a difference of $35.00
You can get a race trans for the price of the full metal jacket drum Say 600.00.
A pro trans is 5500.00
That is a difference of 4900.00
I am still not getting your point.




I think his point is just to keep the going ...

My is the A+A drum is the better billet steel piece , but its $695 .
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 03:00 PM

Last time I looked at pricing they were 1200.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 03:14 PM

Quote:

Last time I looked at pricing they were 1200.





Who's drum , TCS or ???
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 03:24 PM

i get all my stuff from cope. nice guy, good prices, great service. i think i paid 535.00 for my billet steel drum. i fit 6 clutches in it and probably could have fit 7 if i tried real hard. check his web site. i went with steel because i drive on the street occasionally.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 06:01 PM

Just a note about the quantity of plates in the front clutch. More is not necessarily better depending on the application. More plates increases the holding power of the unit but can increase the apply time because there is more area that oil has to be squeezed out during application. Generally the six clutch units are for heavy torque units like a diesel truck while the four and five clutch units work best for racing. This is just a generalization and anything can be made to work but using the higher clutch count in a race application may require some adjustments to shift timing.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 06:41 PM

Quote:

Just a note about the quantity of plates in the front clutch. More is not necessarily better depending on the application. More plates increases the holding power of the unit but can reduce the apply time because there is more area that oil has to be squeezed out during application. Generally the six clutch units are for heavy torque units like a diesel truck while the four and five clutch units work best for racing. This is just a generalization and anything can be made to work but using the higher clutch count in a race application may require some adjustments to shift timing.


granted. and who wants to chase shift timing. i just went with the parts cope recommended, and my tranny has the best two three shift i have ever felt in a torqueflite. instantaneous with no overlap first try! i'm a happy camper, to say the least.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/09/08 06:50 PM

That's great!!! I just wanted to make it known that more is not always better here and in many other areas.

It's always wise to employ people like CRT or one of many others here or elsewhere to get their advice whenever building up a Torqueflite. They've been there, done that many times and aren't likely to steer you wrong. Parts are too expensive to have to purchase them over and over until you get the right combination.
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/10/08 04:15 AM

Who here has had some experience with the telflon sealing rings ? The drum that I have does NOT have a bushing/sleeve in there so "wear issues" are a concen for me.

BTW ....who makes those rings? ..... anyone know a source for greem waffle front clutches?
Posted By: DusterW2

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/10/08 12:57 PM

tflite_patty on Ebay has listed them.

CRT - https://www.coperacingtrans.com/index.php?cPath=73&osCsid=75779daabdf0a2f974e60b0cc7ba3a2c

A&A Trans: www.aandatrans.com

22502T 727 Teflon Rings (Input & Stator) (1971-Up) $14.95

22502TS 727 Teflon Rings (Stator Only) (1971-Up) $9.95
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 09/15/08 01:09 AM

Are you possibly referring to the Raybestos Blue Plate Specials? These are Blue, not green and should be available from most auto trans shops or one of the sponsors here.
Posted By: sogtx

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 11/11/09 12:55 AM

nice post ! lots info ..
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 11/11/09 02:07 PM

Quote:

To help understand what is needed or not I've tried below to explain the problem of sprag roller clutch failure on a Torqueflite.


Great explaination, I saved it on my computer for future reference.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 11/11/09 02:20 PM

Quote:

Just a note about the quantity of plates in the front clutch.


FWIW, I run 5 frictions in my front clutch, and 165 psi line pressure (Griner valve body). That holds the torque of my 511 just fine. And after years and hundreds of passes, the wear was small.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 11/11/09 10:06 PM

Thanks Jim. Hopefully it helps everyone understand what they need to do to keep safe.
Posted By: zygotemrsmith

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 03:57 PM

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp. I have no doubt that most of those folks knew nothing about 2nd to 3rd burnout. Where are the recall notices to protect the public from these dangerous transmissions in all high horsepower Chrysler muscle cars. I am going to call some BS factor on a good bit of this.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 04:06 PM

Quote:

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp. I have no doubt that most of those folks knew nothing about 2nd to 3rd burnout. Where are the recall notices to protect the public from these dangerous transmissions in all high horsepower Chrysler muscle cars. I am going to call some BS factor on a good bit of this.




Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 04:26 PM

Quote:

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp. I have no doubt that most of those folks knew nothing about 2nd to 3rd burnout. Where are the recall notices to protect the public from these dangerous transmissions in all high horsepower Chrysler muscle cars. I am going to call some BS factor on a good bit of this.



there was a frightening thread here a while back- pictures of front drum failures in race cars. look for it. or go to the track once in a while. there's always SOMEONE who thinks they can push it with a stock drum. when they let go, you don't forget.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 06:12 PM

Quote:

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp.




It's simple, few stock motors can attain the rpm needed to cause drum failure.
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 06:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp.




It's simple, few stock motors can attain the rpm needed to cause drum failure.



This kid on big block dart did it with a 13 second car... It can happen to the stockers as well....


http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showth...erent-thread%29
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 06:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp.




It's simple, few stock motors can attain the rpm needed to cause drum failure.



This kid on big block dart did it with a 13 second car... It can happen to the stockers as well....


http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showth...erent-thread%29




It doesn't really matter the power level, if the sprag failes even a slant 6 can make the drum spin 12000 RPM. Now getting the sprag to fail with a slant 6 could be a challenge but thats not what were are talking about
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/06/11 08:14 PM

These type of explosions are somewhat rare, but if one ever happens to you, believe me you will remember it. There are a number of factors that contribute to this type of failure and even if you disregard the warnings about low gear burnouts with a stock trans in the drive position or the same low gear burnouts with a non LBA valve body, you will likely get away with it for a long time. You may even have a driveline failure, repair the failure without inspecting the transmission and still get away with it. The key is that in order to have a failure of the roller clutch that creates the condition that overspeeds the drum, the little legs that position the wave springs and rollers have to get bent over enough to let them fall out of place plus you have to have enough of them fall out of place so the roller/sprag ceases to hold any longer. This doesn't happen everytime there is a driveline failure or driveline shock and the explosion does not normally occur until after the driveline has been repaired and the car is back on the track. It may happen the first time back or it may take many more burnouts/launches before it fails.

If you choose to ignore the warnings, that's your choice and no one can change that but there are others that would rather not take that chance and take steps to reduce the possibility of this type of failure.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/07/11 01:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just a note about the quantity of plates in the front clutch. More is not necessarily better depending on the application. More plates increases the holding power of the unit but can reduce the apply time because there is more area that oil has to be squeezed out during application. Generally the six clutch units are for heavy torque units like a diesel truck while the four and five clutch units work best for racing. This is just a generalization and anything can be made to work but using the higher clutch count in a race application may require some adjustments to shift timing.


granted. and who wants to chase shift timing. i just went with the parts cope recommended, and my tranny has the best two three shift i have ever felt in a torqueflite. instantaneous with no overlap first try! i'm a happy camper, to say the least.


Thats exactly what I did. For my "land Yacht", CRT recommended a steel front drum and 4 clutch discs ). Works great.
Posted By: zygotemrsmith

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/07/11 03:11 AM

Yet another take on the poorly engineered Torqueflite failure item -->

On the RARE occation when a Torqueflite blows up in "Drive position/first gear", the sprag is often erroniously faulted. What happens is the sprag puts the pressure of the rollers directly against the transmission housing resulting in a spectacular explosion. I have only seen this in Drag cars with monstrous torque (built Hemi's and 440's) using 14x32" slicks. You won't have anything to worry about with the stock sprag

They are popping out of the woodwork on this
Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/07/11 03:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so Chrysler made about how many high performance cars with Torqueflites ? 383s,413s,440s and Hemis - where are all the people that filed lawsuit against Chrysler for exploding grenades in their cars when they took them for a romp.




It's simple, few stock motors can attain the rpm needed to cause drum failure.



This kid on big block dart did it with a 13 second car... It can happen to the stockers as well....


http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showth...erent-thread%29




That kid is local to me, the car broke the rear end a few weeks prior to this explosion at a test and tune. They didn't pull and inspect the trans. He made something like 13 passes after that in the low 14's at vegas before it went Kaboom.

My thinking is it hurt the trans when it broke the rear, but the car was slow enough that it was able to hold together for a little bit.

Regardless, yes you can break a 727 regardless of power or ET.
Posted By: cbarracuda

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/07/11 05:05 AM

Good explanation . Factory drums here and not planning to change it
Posted By: PC-CHARGER

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/07/11 05:30 AM

What you are talking about is a sprag failure but is completely different than the type of failure that can cause a front clutch retainer to overspeed and explode. The type of failure you have seen is caused by exactly what you said. Big power and sticky tires. This is a case of the power overwhelming the sprag. The power forces the rollers so tightly up the ramps that at some point it forces the outer race apart. The roller/sprag did it's job and did not turn but the huge power combined with the sticky tires were simply too much for the roller clutch to handle.

The roller clutch failure that causes a drum explosion does not require a bunch of power. The rollers falling out of place cause the roller clutch to release and begin to turn in the direction it normally is held. The power flow changes in this instance and causes the front retainer to spin out of control and explode. Have a look at the link posted above by DJVCuda. This is a classic example of a roller clutch failure resulting from driveline breakage that lead to a front clutch retainer overspeeding and exploding.

I grant you the fact that this type of failure is somewhat rare and the intent of my explantion was to inform. If you choose to take precautions to guard against this type of failure, great, and if not, again, that's your choice but at least you are aware of the potential.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Torqueflite front drums - 05/07/11 10:21 PM

Quote:

Yet another take on the poorly engineered Torqueflite failure item -->

On the RARE occation when a Torqueflite blows up in "Drive position/first gear", the sprag is often erroniously faulted. What happens is the sprag puts the pressure of the rollers directly against the transmission housing resulting in a spectacular explosion. I have only seen this in Drag cars with monstrous torque (built Hemi's and 440's) using 14x32" slicks. You won't have anything to worry about with the stock sprag





My thought on this is it would be a rare instance when a car "with monstrous torque (built Hemi's and 440's) using 14x32" slicks" would have a valve body with a Drive position.

Also, if the pressure on the sprag rollers caused the case to fail, the failure would be apparent in the rear of the case where the sprag is located. In the majority of the explosions photographed the rear of the case is intact and everything forward of the driving shell is missing/mangled which is evidence of an exploded drum; the drum overspeed/failure being the secondary result of a failed sprag.
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