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Chemical Milling...

Posted By: MadMopars

Chemical Milling... - 01/27/14 07:21 PM

Before I begin, I just want to say this process can be dangerous if not done safely and responsibly. There's your warning.

Just curious as to who else is familiar with the process of chemical milling and what the results were. I dipped 3 items in a 70/30 mix of Muriatic Acid and Water over the last several days. I used a surface rusted razor blade, a new square Uni-strut washer, and a new 1/2" conduit strap. The razor blade had a pretty even removal of material overall. At this point it is very flexible and does have some small pin holes in it. It's starting weight was approximately 4 KG but my scale will no longer see a reading from it. The Uni-strut washer starting weight was approximately 2.5oz. It's now at 1.7. The majority of the material came from the 2 ends which look to have been sheared and thus fatigued. Material also disappeared from the hole drilled in the center of it. The faces and other two ends have very little surface change to speak of. Lastly, the conduit strap did nothing. The zinc coating disappeared and that was it.

Although I was pleased to see results over the duration of several days, I did determine that control of where material is removed from is probably my main concern with the process. I believe tempering and fatigue are questionable areas that need to be considered prior to dipping.

Cost and time considered, I was real impressed with the rate of deterioration for lack of a better word. I'm just not sure that continuation of attempting to lighten parts wouldn't come without a few hard lessons.

That being said, has anyone else attempted this or familiar with the process? Any words of wisdom to offer?

Attached picture 8013887-Chem.MillingA.jpg
Posted By: MadMopars

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/27/14 07:21 PM

Pic #2

Attached picture 8013888-Chem.Milling.jpg
Posted By: Hemi_Joel

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/27/14 07:35 PM

I did it with battery acid. It works pretty good. The acid got weaker as it was being used. It workEd faster if I heated it.
sometimes it cut the metal in strange patterns.
Posted By: hemicop

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/27/14 08:07 PM

Word of advice? Yeah, leave that to the pros. Chemical milling, aka "acid dipping" was popular in the early days of ProStock as many know but what some may not know is thatcontrolling the rate of milling is very tricky, the chemicals are dangerous & most likely doing it in your garage/backyard is illegal.
"Big Willie" Robinson lost a Daytona body, it was eaten so badly. There's plenty of stories where bodies-in-white were dipped only to have a roof panel come out of the tank---and these were done by pros!
A friend that worked for Penske in his Trans-Am days tells of cars being so thin they had to spray foam insulation on the panels so they wouldn't flex or cave-in at speed. He claimed without the foam you could shine a light behind a panel & see the glow from the flashlight. Look at some old P/S cars & you may find foam sprayed to the inside of doors, quarterpanels, roofs, etc. There's a reason for it! IIRC, the famous "wire car" of Don Carlton was "wired" just for this very reason.
The old S/S Darts & 'Cudas had their doors dipped & you'll find some weren't as cleaned up after dipping resulting in continued erosion from the acid.
Posted By: MadMopars

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/27/14 09:46 PM

Quote:

I did it with battery acid. It works pretty good. The acid got weaker as it was being used. It workEd faster if I heated it.
sometimes it cut the metal in strange patterns.




The inconsistency of where the material is removed is what bothers me the most. It becomes a gamble at that point.

These chemicals are not strangers to me as we use them in the HVAC industry. While safety and proper handling is a concern anytime acid is used there are still many variables in this process that I'm not sure can be controlled. Horror stories as Hemicop pointed out do exist because of the variables.

I started this process and posted my findings because it's a cool concept and can be a neat way to lighten your car while maintaining a stock appearance as others have done in the past.

If I can do it myself, it looks like it would be a cost effective and viable option. If I can't control the material removal, I don't know that I want to play. My .
Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/27/14 10:43 PM




If I can do it myself, it looks like it would be a cost effective and viable option. If I can't control the material removal, I don't know that I want to play. My .




Years ago, a guy I know used to acid port heads to increase flow on "stocker" heads where porting was not allowed. No one ever caught him at it.
He had me paint some inner fender wells (GM) that had been dipped and later on the acid bled through the paint!!! Apparently not properly neutralized!
Posted By: topside

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 01:28 AM

I heard from a couple guys that ran the AWB '65 cars that they had problems with splitting seams & corrosion showing up during the time they ran the cars. There are several pics of Landy's & the Commandos' cars buckling in different places. I'm fairly amazed that any of the AWB cars still exist, as I know for certain that one was junk after a few years and was cut up for scrap. Its "restoration" used a donor unibody.
Posted By: fullmetaljacket

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 03:27 AM

Fellas, there are some different acids these days used and not as corrosive as yesteryear. I just had an extra dashboard dipped for my project and a Radiator support for my friends early Stingray and it was done in a way that took both time and experience to do correctly.

The process removed 7 Lbs and about 8 Lbs on the rad support respectably. Shortly after, while sitting in a basement garage, they both slightly oxidized. A little rust stop phosphoric acid sprayed on the surface and scuffed with a medium scuff pad and it was clean and spanking ready. An epoxy primer sealer was sprayed and now the topcoat is ready for application to bring back the stock look. Mind you, the gentleman that dipped them washed them thoroughly after the bath and warned me of some areas that would be a little flimsy, but you have to know what, when and how to mask the areas that are important to strength. Most importantly, you have to study the part, make a real world assessment of how much weight or percentage you (NEED) to remove from the part, as opposed to how much you (WANT) to remove. How much you (WANT) may lead you down the same fate as those 65' AFX'rs.
Out of respect to his way of business, I can't and won't discuss his process because it's his business to reveal that if he wants. I can just say that you get what you pay for and he delivered a sound item that is now feather weight. Last,but not least, this process is dangerous and not for the shade tree mechanic to attempt.
Gotta catch a plane. Later.

Attached picture 8014610-102_3175.JPG
Posted By: MadMopars

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 04:09 AM

If your guy was closer it would be a different story. Shipping would kill it for me which is why I'm looking into other options. If I didn't want input I wouldn't come here to ask for it. I'm pretty stubborn and try to do as much as I can myself. I'm not sold on this, but I am still considering all my options. Like all my projects, the money has to make since. The risks also have to be considered. Right now I have a pile of spare parts and a heavy car to deal with.

Thanks to all for the input, I take it all into consideration. It's why I'm here.
Posted By: skicker

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 05:38 AM






Years ago, a guy I know used to acid port heads to increase flow on "stocker" heads where porting was not allowed. No one ever caught him at it.






There was a lot of that done when I raced on dirt. Somewhat even removal of material inside ports with most of the original casting character maintained. Many a tech man got hosed! The fellow local to me who had the most experience with this has since passed on.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 05:40 AM

Back in the day a company called Aero Chem in SO CA used Hydrofloric(not hydrochloric) acid to chemically mill steel for a lot of SO CA racers, the air quality enviormentalist got that banned in the L.A. basin years ago They bought a plant up (in El Mirage) in the high desert later, if you knew someone that worked thier you could get them to still do it back in the late 1980 and early 1990s that company did a lot of the aerospace milling back in the day, the racer stuff was secondary only
Posted By: hemicop

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 10:18 PM

If you can find a copy of "How to Build a SS/AA" car, there's a list of companies in the back that does acid dipping. Grant it, it's an old book now but maybe it'll give you some leads.......
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 10:42 PM

Why not use sand blasting it stops taking material
when you quit and is a TON safer
Posted By: MadMopars

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 11:54 PM

Quote:

Why not use sand blasting it stops taking material
when you quit and is a TON safer





It was a thought that crossed my mind. I'm just not sure what the time standing there blasting, relative to material removed would be. Also, not sure that thinner items wouldn't deform first. It could probably be a more controlled process, just not quite as easy as dropping part in a bucket.

I could take the easy way and drill holes which actually can look pretty cool when done right, but I am looking to maintain a factory appearance and finish on each item. Just looking for 1600 ounces to remove without the naked eye catching it.

I'll give the blasting a shot this week and let you know how it goes.
Posted By: MadMopars

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/28/14 11:57 PM

Quote:

If you can find a copy of "How to Build a SS/AA" car, there's a list of companies in the back that does acid dipping. Grant it, it's an old book now but maybe it'll give you some leads.......




I'll take a look.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 12:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Why not use sand blasting it stops taking material
when you quit and is a TON safer





It was a thought that crossed my mind. I'm just not sure what the time standing there blasting, relative to material removed would be. Also, not sure that thinner items wouldn't deform first. It could probably be a more controlled process, just not quite as easy as dropping part in a bucket.

I could take the easy way and drill holes which actually can look pretty cool when done right, but I am looking to maintain a factory appearance and finish on each item. Just looking for 1600 ounces to remove without the naked eye catching it.

I'll give the blasting a shot this week and let you know how it goes.




Different grades of sand take off more or less...
I would use a heavy (course sand) but do ONLY heavy/
thick parts.... if you try blasting on sheet metal
you will trash it or end up with worped parts quickly...
being your looking to dump 100# that shouldnt be
real hard if you look at EVERYTHING... cutting down
any extra length on bolts all under coating and many
more things
Posted By: clonestocker

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 03:13 AM

Trent,

Cut your door braces out. They were big in the Aspen Wagon. Got to be big in your car.
Posted By: MadMopars

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 03:46 AM

Quote:

Trent,

Cut your door braces out. They were big in the Aspen Wagon. Got to be big in your car.




The GTX didn't get the bracing in 73, just the Satellites. Even without them my car is heavy.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 08:34 AM

Acid attacks steel just like electro-plating - the material is deposited disproportionate to the surface area. It removes the most material from edges, corners and the ID of holes.
It removes the least from flat surfaces, like all panels.
This is the very worst thing from a structural standpoint, since the weight loss is minimal until the corners and seams fall apart.

The entire panel must also be neutralized (baking soda, dilute lye) after thorough rinsing with water, or the remaining acid will completely destroy the panel. Submerging absolutely won't do it. Even cars carefully washed sometimes don't completely flush out (direct path from the acid to the exterior). For the final rinse, boiling water from a pressure washer is best.

Sandblasting works OK until your operator forgets to angle the nozzle or turn the regulator down, then you have a washboard instead of a hood. The bondo weighs much more than the weight saved.
There is also no such thing as "effectively masking the area" to allow blasting on assembled pieces. It never, ever works, and you can get sand out of it 5 years later.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 09:05 AM

Quote:

Back in the day a company called Aero Chem in SO CA used Hydrofloric(not hydrochloric) acid to chemically mill steel for a lot of SO CA racers, the air quality enviormentalist got that banned in the L.A. basin years ago They bought a plant up (in El Mirage) in the high desert later, if you knew someone that worked thier you could get them to still do it back in the late 1980 and early 1990s that company did a lot of the aerospace milling back in the day, the racer stuff was secondary only




There was someone around here in So Cal only around 5 years ago that had a vat big enough to do a front subframe. I don't know the name of it. 3rd hand info, but worked on the racecar.
Posted By: 572_HEMI_Cuda

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 02:46 PM

Quote:

Acid attacks steel just like electro-plating - the material is deposited disproportionate to the surface area. It removes the most material from edges, corners and the ID of holes.
It removes the least from flat surfaces, like all panels.
This is the very worst thing from a structural standpoint, since the weight loss is minimal until the corners and seams fall apart.

The entire panel must also be neutralized (baking soda, dilute lye) after thorough rinsing with water, or the remaining acid will completely destroy the panel. Submerging absolutely won't do it. Even cars carefully washed sometimes don't completely flush out (direct path from the acid to the exterior). For the final rinse, boiling water from a pressure washer is best.

Sandblasting works OK until your operator forgets to angle the nozzle or turn the regulator down, then you have a washboard instead of a hood. The bondo weighs much more than the weight saved.
There is also no such thing as "effectively masking the area" to allow blasting on assembled pieces. It never, ever works, and you can get sand out of it 5 years later.




Good post

Also sandblasting will not achieve what you are looking for. If you have a hood that has rust or bondo you can sandblast or media bast it off, But if you think you can remove weight by blasting the metal to a certain thickness, or to death (which certainly will be the case) it aint happening. Even on heavier parts like a k-frame, all you will achieve is a deeper etch.
Posted By: jamesc

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/29/14 09:18 PM

Quote:

Back in the day a company called Aero Chem in SO CA used Hydrofloric(not hydrochloric) acid to chemically mill steel for a lot of SO CA racers, the air quality enviormentalist got that banned in the L.A. basin years ago They bought a plant up (in El Mirage) in the high desert later, if you knew someone that worked thier you could get them to still do it back in the late 1980 and early 1990s that company did a lot of the aerospace milling back in the day, the racer stuff was secondary only




it's "hydrofluoric" and imho not something you want to mess with
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/30/14 12:14 AM

From the looks of "Your Test Results" I wouldnt even consider it. Lots of other easier ways to take weight off.
Posted By: booger

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/30/14 01:01 AM

Lots of places to lose weight if you look around. It may not be the best place to do it, but here's an example:

Attached picture 8017573-trunklid.jpg
Posted By: Polarapete

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/30/14 02:01 AM

Taking weight off the back of the car is the wrong place to do it. Of course that is exactly what I did 35 years ago. On my '68 Coronet I built rear wheel tubs out of sheet steel and in doing so I lost the trunk hinge support structure. So I pinned the deck lid (after I cut out the webbing and spent hours repairing the damage that caused)in the front corners with 1 pin in the center of the back. This meant that when I had to fuel the car, I had to pull the pins, pull off the lid and find someplace to lean it while I filled the fuel cell. I also took the quarter window regulators and glass out cause the new tubs interfered with the regulators and replaced them with plexiglass. I took a few small pieces off the front of the car and moved the batteries to the trunk. So it was a lot of work and no real benefit

The winningest bracket racer in this area is Don "The Worm" Elgin and he adds ballast to his Pontiacs to dial them in. If you need the last possible advantage to reach your ET goals then have at it. If you want to win bracket races, refine your existing combination
Posted By: booger

Re: Chemical Milling... - 01/30/14 02:40 AM

Quote:

Taking weight off the back of the car is the wrong place to do it. Of course that is exactly what I did 35 years ago. On my '68 Coronet I built rear wheel tubs out of sheet steel and in doing so I lost the trunk hinge support structure. So I pinned the deck lid (after I cut out the webbing and spent hours repairing the damage that caused)in the front corners with 1 pin in the center of the back. This meant that when I had to fuel the car, I had to pull the pins, pull off the lid and find someplace to lean it while I filled the fuel cell. I also took the quarter window regulators and glass out cause the new tubs interfered with the regulators and replaced them with plexiglass. I took a few small pieces off the front of the car and moved the batteries to the trunk. So it was a lot of work and no real benefit

The winningest bracket racer in this area is Don "The Worm" Elgin and he adds ballast to his Pontiacs to dial them in. If you need the last possible advantage to reach your ET goals then have at it. If you want to win bracket races, refine your existing combination




No doubt, that's why I phrased my reply like I did. The intent wasn't to say do it here, but to say look around before going totally radical with acid. My car was "race prepped" by the shop of a known factory racer, and they treated the stamping lines in the sheetmetal like "cut here" lines. The trunk lid was just the most obvious in a photo.
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