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Carb size question

Posted By: 68LAR

Carb size question - 01/22/14 06:53 PM

It's winter and I'm over thinking things again. What is the determining factor to choose the right size carb? Lets say for a street/strip application. Over the years, starting with a stock AVS, then progressing upward to a 780VS. Then to dual quads and then to an 850DP, to what I run now a 1050AN. I've never gone slower by a carb increase in size. Have I just been lucky? What's your experiences?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Carb size question - 01/22/14 07:11 PM

I've never seen a 440 Mopar motor slow down at the track or loose power on the dyno by putting more air and fuel to it Unless the guy doing the swap didn't know how to tune the carbs One of my old race cars, 440 powered Duster that I bracket raced and ran in S/ST was used as a mule for carb size testing by me back in the early 1990s, I started it off with a Hollet 600 D.P. thinking the car would leave harder and react quicker with the smallert carb, back then NHRA Division 7 used the 4 tenths Pro Tree in S/ST and Pro bracket racing. I had bought a tranny with a trans brake in it so that was the reason to try and step up the reaction times. I put 4 or 5 carbs and two different intakes on the car by the end of that year, every time I put a bigger carb on it the car ran quicker and faster It picked up almost .8 ET and 7 or 8 MPH by going from the Hollet 600 D.P. on a TM7 intake to a Holley 1050 CFM Dominator List # 9375 on a Mopar M1 4500 intake My last mule motor, 526 C.I. Bracket race motor, liked the dual 1050 Holley Dominator carbs. a lot comparted to a single 1050 Dominator
Posted By: BradH

Re: Carb size question - 01/22/14 07:16 PM

My experiences have been that you can get to the point where a bigger carb that makes more HP on the dyno actually goes slower than a smaller carb that's more responsive and has better shift recovery.

I've dropped from a Holley 1.562" v downleg carb to the original "950" HP w/ the 1.375" v downleg design and the car picked up .15 in 60-ft, .2 in ET and 2 MPH because the smaller carb simply ran better. Yet on the dyno, they showed virtually identical HP.

Plenty of people on here seem to "always" go faster w/ bigger carbs, but I'm not one of them.
Posted By: wedgedave

Re: Carb size question - 01/22/14 07:21 PM

I run a pair of 750 EBrocks on a 540 big block in a 65 Beleveder it goes 10 flat in the Qt. The the chokes have been removed and tops machined and sport the largest jets it will stand. It's a drag car only so I don't need chokes, only the driver does once in a while !!!
Posted By: poisondart2

Re: Carb size question - 01/22/14 08:44 PM

Quote:

My experiences have been that you can get to the point where a bigger carb that makes more HP on the dyno actually goes slower than a smaller carb that's more responsive and has better shift recovery.

I've dropped from a Holley 1.562" v downleg carb to the original "950" HP w/ the 1.375" v downleg design and the car picked up .15 in 60-ft, .2 in ET and 2 MPH because the smaller carb simply ran better. Yet on the dyno, they showed virtually identical HP.

Plenty of people on here seem to "always" go faster w/ bigger carbs, but I'm not one of them.





Iam with you but got to say I believed bigger was better until I was talked into smaller by profesional carb builder. Now I just make a call have a carb built for any of my cars and dont question if I can go faster with a larger carb cause Iam no profesional.
Posted By: dynamite

Re: Carb size question - 01/22/14 10:40 PM

I lost .2 in going from a 750 Holley to 870 Holley..no other changes ,,just a carb swap at the track...

Attached picture 8007746-Dad_Car(2).jpg
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/22/14 11:41 PM

Do you guys think that maybe engine size and transmission type play into this question? Example, I have a stick car with a big block. On the street, I have enough torque to get moving without having to dip into the "go pedal" very much. At the track, I leave off of a 2 step and I'm usually into the secondary side of the carb at launch. With an automatic, unless you're leaving off of a trans brake, you're leaving off of the primary side of the carb at the track. On the street, I don't see much difference if you're running a big block. Small blocks usually make torq higher in the rpm range. Of course, cam and heads have something to do with all of this. Maybe I'm getting into the weeds too far on this subject.
Posted By: oldiron

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 12:06 AM

OK, here's a thought for you. At my last race at Atco, I was trying to slow my car down, to 10.0 I was running 9.95 to 9.98 lifting early in time trials. I got through the 1st round but had a much better light and passed the slower car by the 1/8th and lifted to just stay ahead and ran a 10.02. Being the idiot that I am, I backed the throttle cable so the secondaries opened about 1/2 way. 2nd round, I passed the car at about 1000' and lifted and did a 10.89 at 110. The 60' improved by .05 while the mph at the 1/8 was down by 2. So in my case, less carb was better (at least that day)
Posted By: 383man

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 12:18 AM

I dont know how much you drive your car on the street but I do drive mine alot and right now I use an 850 DP which along with the Indy dual plane it has great driveability. I can nail it at any rpm driving around and it is right there with instant responce. I feel I can go faster with a 1050 Dominator as when I put this eng together the eng just wanted more and more jet in this 850. So I found a happy spot where it runs good but is not to fat to foul plugs out driving on the street. I dont know if larger carb like a Dominator would have as good driveabilty on the street but I am pretty sure it would go faster at the track with a Dominator. But I am the kind of guy that when I find a good spot for jetting I leave it there for hot and cool weather driving as I dont feel like changing jets all the time. Last time at the track my brother-in-law said why dont I jet up some and try to go faster but I told him I dont want to because it drives so good with the jetting in it. I want to try a single plane and a Dominator one day and even if it goes faster if the driveabilty on the street is worse I may not leave it on. Ron
Posted By: wedgedave

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 12:22 AM

The last 2 years I have been running with the Victory Super Stock guys. I run SS/A so I cant run any faster than 10 Flat with 2- 750's on a Modman Indy manifold. With a 1080 dominator I have been 9.89 141.00 mph, so In some cases a bigger carb will help, it depends on what your trying to accomplish, Just want to run my numbers 10 flat.
Posted By: poisondart2

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 01:12 AM

Quote:

I lost .2 in going from a 750 Holley to 870 Holley..no other changes ,,just a carb swap at the track...




WOW That car is really good lookin.
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 01:31 AM

Quote:

OK, here's a thought for you. At my last race at Atco, I was trying to slow my car down, to 10.0 I was running 9.95 to 9.98 lifting early in time trials. I got through the 1st round but had a much better light and passed the slower car by the 1/8th and lifted to just stay ahead and ran a 10.02. Being the idiot that I am, I backed the throttle cable so the secondaries opened about 1/2 way. 2nd round, I passed the car at about 1000' and lifted and did a 10.89 at 110. The 60' improved by .05 while the mph at the 1/8 was down by 2. So in my case, less carb was better (at least that day)




This had something to do with why I posted this. As you know when we race at National Trail, I have to slow down to an 11.50. I do have a smaller carb, but have never tested back to back with my 1050. when I did run this smaller carb, I also was running a different combo. I do plan on doing some track testing this spring with the smaller one for the NTR meet later this summer.

As far a street ability. My car has no issues. I wouldn't be afraid to get in it and drive across country. I'd run out of gas money before I got to the Mississippi, but it is what it is. Throttle response ... lets just say that from just above idle (1300rpm) with my foot off of the clutch, I can punch it and it will go sideways with ease. (This is the reason I use for not street racing anymore.)
Posted By: OUTLAWD

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 03:33 AM

Same day testing on the 493 that I have in my Plymouth

3310 holley 750 vac sec: 11.60 114.8
80496 Holley 950 HP: 11.44 116.5


when trying to knock it down to 12.0 at E-town (no roll bar, quite a while ago), had a mechanical throttle stop pulling more than half the travel out, still running high 11's


950 has good street manners, just drinks fuel!
Posted By: 383man

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 03:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

OK, here's a thought for you. At my last race at Atco, I was trying to slow my car down, to 10.0 I was running 9.95 to 9.98 lifting early in time trials. I got through the 1st round but had a much better light and passed the slower car by the 1/8th and lifted to just stay ahead and ran a 10.02. Being the idiot that I am, I backed the throttle cable so the secondaries opened about 1/2 way. 2nd round, I passed the car at about 1000' and lifted and did a 10.89 at 110. The 60' improved by .05 while the mph at the 1/8 was down by 2. So in my case, less carb was better (at least that day)




This had something to do with why I posted this. As you know when we race at National Trail, I have to slow down to an 11.50. I do have a smaller carb, but have never tested back to back with my 1050. when I did run this smaller carb, I also was running a different combo. I do plan on doing some track testing this spring with the smaller one for the NTR meet later this summer.

As far a street ability. My car has no issues. I wouldn't be afraid to get in it and drive across country. I'd run out of gas money before I got to the Mississippi, but it is what it is. Throttle response ... lets just say that from just above idle (1300rpm) with my foot off of the clutch, I can punch it and it will go sideways with ease. (This is the reason I use for not street racing anymore.)




Thats great that it has good driveability with the Dominator. What intake are you running ? Ron
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 04:25 AM

Quote:

Thats great that it has good driveability with the Dominator. What intake are you running ? Ron





Ron, No dominator. Quick Fuel Q 1050 AN on top of a Victor.
Larry
Posted By: 383man

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 05:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thats great that it has good driveability with the Dominator. What intake are you running ? Ron





Ron, No dominator. Quick Fuel Q 1050 AN on top of a Victor.
Larry




Oh I just assumed it was a Dominator. Thanks , Ron
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 09:59 PM

So what is the defining factor that determines what size carb to be used? From the replies, some have gone faster with a bigger carb, some have slowed down, some have gone faster with a smaller carb. Kind of confusing, but the question is still, what determines what size carb to be used? With so many different outcomes, maybe tuning is the answer, who knows? In the past, I've started with what has worked for other guys and moved on from there. (Trial and Error method)
Posted By: tex013

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 10:55 PM

68LAR,
my opinion is it not just putting more carb on it .
It is a complete package with basic start line .
My experience with my 440 with 8:1 ran 12.88-90 with a HP750 vac sec . But when I rebuilt it with more comp I went 825 mighty demon , this carb was good enough to finally crack a 10.99 with a lot of time spent tuning the car and motor, and some additional weight loss . I tried a dual quad modman , made the same peak rwhp , same mph but lost et due to a poor 60' .I back to backed the 825 to a HP1000 for maybe 3rwhp and maybe a couple of hundredths .When I put better flowing heads on I tried the 825 back to back to the hp1000(prosystem I had been trying)I picked up 28-29 rwhp .I have not tried the modman with these heads - yet .
As you can see like you trial and error but the bigger carb will only inprove if the rest of the package will take benefit of the flow .
For performance I would lean towards the 825 , QF 850 or Proform 850 as a starting carb ,then if I can borrow one try the hp1000 sized carbs - QF950 , Proform 950
by the way I did try a HP950 , 750 body 850 baseplate , at one stage it lost nearly 3/10's in the quarter



Tex
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/23/14 11:43 PM

Quote:

For performance I would lean towards the 825 , QF 850 or Proform 850 as a starting carb ,then if I can borrow one try the hp1000 sized carbs - QF950 , Proform 950



I'm currently running a Quick Fuel Q1050AN.. So you think I will go faster with a smaller carb????

Here's a thought. Isn't it true that a carb will only pass the quantity of air that the engine demands? If so, then putting a larger carb on and tuning it should be the answer and to slow a car down, put a smaller carb on so it can't pass the amount of air that the engine needs. After all, isn't an engine just an air pump? Just thinking out loud, maybe I'm completely out in left field here????????!!!!!!!

Posted By: poisondart2

Re: Carb size question - 01/24/14 12:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

For performance I would lean towards the 825 , QF 850 or Proform 850 as a starting carb ,then if I can borrow one try the hp1000 sized carbs - QF950 , Proform 950



I'm currently running a Quick Fuel Q1050AN.. So you think I will go faster with a smaller carb????

Here's a thought. Isn't it true that a carb will only pass the quantity of air that the engine demands? If so, then putting a larger carb on and tuning it should be the answer and to slow a car down, put a smaller carb on so it can't pass the amount of air that the engine needs. After all, isn't an engine just an air pump? Just thinking out loud, maybe I'm completely out in left field here????????!!!!!!!






Call a profesional carb builder as you are right but weight of the car heads cam headers trans rear all can be put into the equation
Posted By: tex013

Re: Carb size question - 01/24/14 12:48 AM

duh ,
get my remembering cap on as to your first note . Yes the motor is a pump and will only pass through what the smallest restriction allows , for peak flow . If the carb is the restriction and you increase its size that will help . My example is the heads were the restriction - they had reached max flow and a bigger carb did not help power / flow . Yes a smaller carb can restrict flow and reduce power , as I noted with the hp950 I tried plus the back to back carb test on the dyno with new heads. But remember a smaller carb will often have a better signal and can help the short times ,responsiveness , but give up a bit in the top , this can only be seen on the track not dyno . That is why I start with an 1.40/42 venturi carb for performance use , maximum power .
JMO
Tex
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/24/14 02:26 AM

Quote:

Yes the motor is a pump and will only pass through what the smallest restriction allows , for peak flow . If the carb is the restriction and you increase its size that will help . My example is the heads were the restriction - they had reached max flow and a bigger carb did not help power / flow . Yes a smaller carb can restrict flow and reduce power , as I noted with the hp950 I tried plus the back to back carb test on the dyno with new heads. But remember a smaller carb will often have a better signal and can help the short times ,responsiveness , but give up a bit in the top , this can only be seen on the track not dyno . That is why I start with an 1.40/42 venturi carb for performance use , maximum power .
JMO
Tex




Posted By: 383man

Re: Carb size question - 01/24/14 07:31 AM

You know because I kept thinking you ran a Dominator is why I was wondering how well it runs on the street. Dumb me. I guess because I would like to try a Dominator one day I just assumed you ran one. But I take it you like the carb alot that you are running now ? Ron
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/24/14 02:50 PM

Quote:

... know because I kept thinking you ran a Dominator is why I was wondering how well it runs on the street. Dumb me. I guess because I would like to try a Dominator one day I just assumed you ran one. But I take it you like the carb alot that you are running now ? Ron





I bought the carb used from a MOPARTS member several years ago. Someone had gone in and did some "funky" things to it and it wouldn't run for crap. I contacted Quick Fuel and got the OE specs on the carb and put it all back to "like new" condition. Then tuned on it to where it is now. To this point in time it has been the best carb I have ever owned. The AN boosters give a great signal that gives instantaneous throttle response.
I'm considering, or looking to change, the carb to a smaller one, or do something else to the tuneup, for the NTR race this summer. (Because I don't have a roll bar) I have to slow the car down to 11.50. I'm wanting to do something simple like putting a smaller carb on. We'll see where it leads?
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Carb size question - 01/25/14 01:14 AM

I'd consider pulling timing out of it to get to where you need to be. Much simpler and less expensive way to achieve a specific performance benchmark / E.T. than investing in and learning the tuning curve of a new carb.
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/25/14 01:24 AM

Quote:

I'd consider pulling timing out of it to get to where you need to be. Much simpler and less expensive way to achieve a specific performance benchmark / E.T. than investing in and learning the tuning curve of a new carb.





I hear ya, and will probably end up doing that, but I don't have to buy a new carb. I already have the smaller carb. I was using it before buying the Quick Fuel. With my set up, changing carbs take about 5 minutes. All hook-ups are the same on both carbs.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Carb size question - 01/25/14 01:31 AM

Great looking 'Runner by the way. I'd love to see more pics!
Posted By: 383man

Re: Carb size question - 01/25/14 01:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd consider pulling timing out of it to get to where you need to be. Much simpler and less expensive way to achieve a specific performance benchmark / E.T. than investing in and learning the tuning curve of a new carb.





I hear ya, and will probably end up doing that, but I don't have to buy a new carb. I already have the smaller carb. I was using it before buying the Quick Fuel. With my set up, changing carbs take about 5 minutes. All hook-ups are the same on both carbs.





Thats great as when you put the smaller carb back on then I can borrow your big carb. Just joking but one day I want to try a 1050 carb. Ron
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Carb size question - 01/25/14 06:09 PM

There is no "determined size".
The real question is "how much pressure differential do you want at WOT?"
Big carb = weak signal = difficult to tune, big power: 1" WOT vacuum.
Economy car = small carb = excellent response + good mileage: 3" WOT vacuum.
Very complex carbs such as Weber DCOE, Dell'Orto DHLA have good response and signal as low as .5".

Carb CFM is not a fixed number. A 750 only flows 750 is the engine demand produces the Holley test vacuum figure of 1.5 inches of mercury. If the engine produces more vacuum (2" etc.) carb flow increases, and vice versa.

Why does high WOT vacuum reduce power?
#1. pumping loss
#2. the VE is affected by the vacuum reading. No N/A engine has 0 vacuum, which means the maximum VE (absent wave/sonic tuning) is below 100%. Theoretical calculation is
((ATM - WOT loss) ÷ ATM)^.5
Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Carb size question - 01/25/14 07:06 PM

Quote:

There is no "determined size".
The real question is "how much pressure differential do you want at WOT?"
Big carb = weak signal = difficult to tune, big power: 1" WOT vacuum.
Economy car = small carb = excellent response + good mileage: 3" WOT vacuum.
Very complex carbs such as Weber DCOE, Dell'Orto DHLA have good response and signal as low as .5".

Carb CFM is not a fixed number. A 750 only flows 750 is the engine demand produces the Holley test vacuum figure of 1.5 inches of mercury. If the engine produces more vacuum (2" etc.) carb flow increases, and vice versa.

Why does high WOT vacuum reduce power?
#1. pumping loss
#2. the VE is affected by the vacuum reading. No N/A engine has 0 vacuum, which means the maximum VE (absent wave/sonic tuning) is below 100%. Theoretical calculation is
((ATM - WOT loss) ÷ ATM)^.5




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