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Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner

Posted By: STEFF

Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/28/13 11:29 PM

After scraping the bottom of my Oil Pan numerous times, as I like my car sitting low, I decided to put a rack in and do away with the drag link thru the oil pan. I first started out designing a Tubular K Member front end in Solidworks. But, at the moment I do not have a tube bender. So with being a tad impatient with this set back, I decided to hack up the stock stuff. Here's some pics of how it turned out.








Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/28/13 11:38 PM

Looks great.........how`s the steering and do you have all of these issues I`ve read about on here?
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/28/13 11:40 PM

A few more pics.




Posted By: 80arrow

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 12:30 AM

Where did you get your new steering arms and brackets to mount them to the spindles? Is that something that you made or is it manufactured by someone? Looks like you have a lot more room without the steering box.
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 12:58 AM

Quote:

Looks great.........how`s the steering and do you have all of these issues I`ve read about on here?




Thanx! I haven't checked bump steer yet. That's tomorrows project. I did raise and lower the suspension and by the eye ball test, ot looks pretty good. I made sure the tie rod connect point is outside of the ball joint center.
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 01:01 AM

Quote:

Where did you get your new steering arms and brackets to mount them to the spindles? Is that something that you made or is it manufactured by someone? Looks like you have a lot more room without the steering box.




I designed them up and then had them water jet cut. And yes, there's plenty more room.
Posted By: CHAPPER

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 01:29 AM

Posted By: tjmarcus1

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 01:30 AM

I couldn't open the pics? But can you tell me where Smyrna is?
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 01:41 AM

Quote:

I couldn't open the pics? But can you tell me where Smyrna is?




Smyrna is about an hour southwest of Charlotte NC, in SC. You could google maps it. Zip code is 29743.
Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 01:56 AM

did you weight the lower control arms before and after? I like it
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 02:05 AM

I take it by looking at the pictures that you also went to coil over front suspension at the same time, is that correct? If so how much travel did you end up with the coil overs you used? I'm kind of in the middle of having a car done similar, doing away with the stock steering, torsion bars and switching to coil overs in the front suspension.
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 02:23 AM

Gut, about a pound difference in the before and after control arms.

Cab, I did not do away with the t-bars yet. I will do away with them once I run some forward strut bars.
Posted By: onig

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 04:40 AM

I realy like what you have done.
A few questions.
What material are the steering arms, they look like aluminum?
Are the two bolts that hold the arm to the knuckle 3/8"?
I have been looking at front rack mount kits and coil kits for my Dart. Most of the kits are very expensive and I am not sure that I can justify spending upwards of 3 grand for it.
My concerns on your setup are:
Using those 3/8 bolts if in deed they are 3/8 would be small, just by looking at the pic.
The steering arm material strength.
The amount of material on the arm for the rod end bolt to go through.
Again just my concerns and opinion. If this is the first rendition it is awesome. I really like what you have done.

Onig
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 09:18 AM

Onig,

The arms are made of hot rolled steel plate

Bolts are 3/8 grade 8. The two piece arm is to have tunabilty when cheking bumpsteer and ackerman check. Once that is worked out, I may weld the arm and mount togerher. But, the bolt size doesn't scare me.

I agree the aftermarket front ends are expensive but that is because there is a lot of work, time, etc. invested and good parts cost money. I have total respect for the companies that make them. I did this vs. buy one because I love fabricating, design and learning this kind of stuff, so I can do things myself.

The tie rod connection of the steering arm is 1" square by 3/4 thick. The bolt is a 1/2 dia. No worries there.

Thanx for the kind words!
Posted By: Dartin

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 01:16 PM

Steff, thanks a lot. Now Sean will see this and start pestering me again to do this to my car, lol. Seriously though, like all of your stuff, I'm sure it will work and look great .

Randy
Posted By: onig

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 02:34 PM

Thanks Steff,
Looking forward to see how your bump steer graphs out. Will you be doing both camber and toe checks.

On another note; do you have any pics of that oil pan mod you did on that new hemi. Looks like stock pan rails with your added sump.

Onig
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 03:49 PM

Onig, only bumpsteer and toe.........garage alignment.

On my oil pan, I had an aluminum srt8 oil pan. I measured 1 1/2" from the flange and cut the rest off. I made everything else. Now that I eliminated the drag link, the pan is going to get an overhaul and depth reduced.

Here's a few pics of the pan.



Posted By: jcc

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 04:12 PM

Is this a street driven car?
Does it lift the front wheels?
I see a few negatives, and am surprised no one wants to rain on your parade with any critical comments, not sure I want to be first, Since it is already built. But I like your initiative, and your craftsmanship looks good.
I'm pondering my next response.
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 04:19 PM

Quote:

Is this a street driven car?
Does it lift the front wheels?
I see a few negatives, and am surprised no one wants to rain on your parade with any critical comments, not sure I want to be first, Since it is already built. But I like your initiative, and your craftsmanship looks good.
I'm pondering my next response.




Yes, the car is street driven. Haven't been to track with new motor yet. So, wheel stands are unknown.

Critical comments......Fire away.....I'm cool with it.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 04:41 PM

Pm sent
Posted By: SB412DUSTER

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/29/13 05:18 PM

Quote:

Critical comments......Fire away.....I'm cool with it.





I would add a few pieces of tubing to help support the part that the LCA goes in, It will certainly move around when it's stressed like wheel stands or hard braking.

Something like this will help

Attached picture 7940330-Rack&pinion2.JPG
Posted By: Blown61

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 03:59 PM

No torsion bars? what holds the back of the lcr in?

thanks
Posted By: brads70

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 04:12 PM

Dude I don't mean to be rude but that's just flat out dangerous and should never be on the road( or track) Your going to kill yourself and/or someone else.
I understand your intent and desire and I applaud that but for starters that "steering arm" WILL fail and with catastrophic consequences. The "k-frame will flex and bend and break in short order too. Not to mention how it will steer even if it didn't break. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find someone with a lot of experience to help you with this before something very horrific happens.
Again your best interests are at heart here, not trying to rain on your parade or insult you in any way.
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 04:14 PM

Looks alittle weak to me. Remember that the steerig arms/ball joints from the factory was made of forged steel.
Also the stock k-member have alot of flex going on and i cant see you made it better.
I always try to think triangulate when i fab stuff.
Need to think 3 dim.
Just my two cent.
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 06:25 PM

Quote:

No torsion bars? what holds the back of the lcr in?

thanks




Torsion Bars will be used. They just aren't in, in the pic. I will go to coilovers once I get some front struts in from the cage.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 06:40 PM

Quote:

Dude I don't mean to be rude but that's just flat out dangerous and should never be on the road( or track) Your going to kill yourself and/or someone else.
I understand your intent and desire and I applaud that but for starters that "steering arm" WILL fail and with catastrophic consequences. The "k-frame will flex and bend and break in short order too. Not to mention how it will steer even if it didn't break. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find someone with a lot of experience to help you with this before something very horrific happens.
Again your best interests are at heart here, not trying to rain on your parade or insult you in any way.




DAMN... some of you thing you have to have a 2" square
piece of cast to get the tires to turn... you sure
wouldnt like mine


Attached picture 7941461-DSC00029.JPG
Posted By: STEFF

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 07:12 PM

Quote:

Dude I don't mean to be rude but that's just fmmlat out dangerous and should never be on the road( or track) Your going to kill yourself and/or someone else.
I understand your intent and desire and I applaud that but for starters that "steering arm" WILL fail and with catastrophic consequences. The "k-frame will flex and bend and break in short order too. Not to mention how it will steer even if it didn't break. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find someone with a lot of experience to help you with this before something very horrific happens.
Again your best interests are at heart here, not trying to rain on your parade or insult you in any way.




Those steering arms are for mock-up and getting bumpsteer and ackerman figured out. Once finalized. A more robust arm will be made.

The k-frame does NOT support the motor. I have a motor plate. I'm going to add an additional rib like SB412duster posted. But, other than that, it'll be plenty strong. It's really no different than someone cutting the center out for oil pan access.

I did plenty of research looking at many different frames, for mopars and many other makes as well. There isn't as much steel in them as you'd think.

Thanx for the input and crtiques.

I appreciate the input and crtiques.
Posted By: Dragula

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 11/30/13 08:36 PM

Really awesome job, very impressed....Along with your Drag Week completion with a new engine...
Posted By: rowin4

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 02:36 AM

Apparently most of you guy's have never looked at a strut steering system, 1/4" flat plate bolted on with 2 - 3/8 bolts. Never heard of one breaking.

Posted By: jcc

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 02:39 AM

I believe when using TB's, the K sees the weight from the motor, whether is on mounts or plate, but when going to coil overs, the k only sees the motor when on mounts, although on coilovers it does see a small %, depending motion ratio stuff.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 04:57 AM

Steff... on that PM.... strut rods also
Posted By: dizuster

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 03:10 PM

Ok I'm not trying to stir the pot, but here is my two cents. Tried to explain it in the simplest way possible.

First, remember the old saying. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

When the car brakes, nose dives, comes of a wheelie, etc... here is part of what happens.

First look at Figure "A" in the top left corner.

This is a section through the frame rail and rear attachment point of the K-member. Force #1 represents the weight of the car pushing down in the frame rail. Force #2 represents the force from the lower control arm holding the car up. In principal, this is what keeps the car "Up". You can see that these forces are not in line. What this means is that there will be a "twisting" of the frame rail.

Now look at Figure "B" at the bottom.

You can see the same Force #1 and Force #2. This results in the "twisting" that I was trying to simply explain in Figure A. The twisting is shown as Force #3.

So what counter acts the twisting of Force #3? It's safe to assume that most of Force #1 is also distributed through the front portion of the untouched K-frame. It is much larger/stronger then the rear square tube that was added.

As Force #3 twists up, it creates a Force #4 on the square tube. Force #4 and Force #1 (on the front of the K-Frame) are now "fighting" eachother to keep the car up. This is what normally happens with a stock K-frame.

But what you can envision, is that there is a huge mismatch of strength between the old front box section of the K-frame, and the new 1" square tube that has been added. The new square tube is clearly not as strong as the old boxed K-frame section.

To make things worse, the holes that are drilled for rack attachment bolts, is right through the worst part of the load path in the small square tube.

If Force #1 is hard enough, it will try to bend/break the new square tube because of the translated Force #4. This will most likely occur right at the rear hole that was drilled for fastener access to the rack attachment.

If it were mine, I would cut the square tubes off, replace with adequate size round tube, and weld tabs off the round tube to attach the rack. That way the tube is not compromised because of the rack attachment hole.

Just my opinion....but something to think about.

Attached picture 7942637-IMG_20131201_084825_866(1280x698).jpg
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 03:40 PM

Good work Steve. I think, given the time and materials, you could/would build a functioning space shuttle. I really like the explaination given by Scott too. I thought I had some 1 1/4" .134 mild steel tube,... I DON'T. Anyway, it's good to see these ideas materialize. Hope to see you over the holidays.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 05:06 PM

I agree the added square tubing is imo also a problem area, the stress concentration on the mid angle welded joint is going to be rather high, and competing with the thru bolts for weakest area. I think it can be reinforced, or upgraded with a replacement, without starting over. I would not automatically suggest round tubing, as it's greatest strength attribute compared to equally sized square? tubing is torsional strength, and not sure that is a big concern on this support piece.

However the Op's point on the many over the years rather cut-up/butchered drag race k's for oil pan clearance makes for a rather compelling argument, although street/road vs drag are two different animals.
Posted By: Just-a-dart

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 06:37 PM

Steff I have been watching this thread and can relate, I'm in the middle of a K-member project myself for me and a couple of buddies a-body cars.

I would suggest you buy a caster camber gauge (if you don't have one) and set the caster/camber before you spend too much time on the bump steer and shape of the steering arms. It will make a difference, when you move the top of the spindle back it will raise the steering arm and vice versa.
Posted By: redmist

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/01/13 07:01 PM

Looks like it might work, My guess is that the bars where your rack are attached will flex and crack at the K-frame joint.

If it does, you will be moving your rack back and forth instead of your wheels.


Be careful.
Posted By: JERICOGTX

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/02/13 02:51 AM

I also built a K member with a rack for my Roadrunner.

Attached picture 7943657-IMG_20131201_194435.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/02/13 02:59 AM

Quote:

Looks like it might work, My guess is that the bars where your rack are attached will flex and crack at the K-frame joint.

If it does, you will be moving your rack back and forth instead of your wheels.


Be careful.




On My Rampage with the wider tires I have learned
that I dont turn the wheel at a dead stand still..
I am always rolling to turn the tires be it slow or
what not I dont like putting all the pressure on the
rack itself... I feel they arent all that strong


Attached picture 7943670-DSC00234.JPG
Posted By: Bubba

Re: Did a Front Steer Rack Conversion on my Road Runner - 12/02/13 08:11 PM

...nice
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