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Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP......

Posted By: 69CHARGERMD

Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 02:33 PM

I need some suggestions on what type of intake and carb(s) to run.

This is for the 65' Belvedere,,,

I want to "think" about running in the NSS stuff....or at least have the ability to comply with the rules,,,,
The only major thing for me/the car is the carb issues,,,

Right now i have a Dominator,,,the car has Edelbrock heads,,,
The best ET on the car is a 10.26 @ 130MPH,with the dominator,,,not sure there is much more in the car as it sits,,,other than shedding some weight for ET...

QUESTION

What intake and carbs would you recomend for NSS for my car?

Will it slow down much or at all,,,compared to the dominator ?

I have a 800 Thunder series Edelbrock carb,,,sitting on the shelf ( should i run 2 of those,,,or am i going to have to down size to 2 smaller carbs ? ),,,i dont know what the NSS guys typically run,,,so need a little help there...

Is there someone that can "trick" out the carbs to make them work alot better,,,,eg prosystems,,quickfuel,,etc...

Thanks for any suggestions.....

I am planning on running DUAL carbs,,,,,

Is there an advantage to running a IN LINE vs CROSS RAM intake ?,,,,,

Doug

I attached a copy of the NSS rules,,,carb section...










Quote:

1.19 CARBURETOR
CARBURETOR (NSS CLASSES): All entries in the eliminator must be carbureted as outlined below. Carburetors must be of type and design as originally produced for a specific vehicle. Positioning of carburetors from factory mounting not a tech item (carburetors may be positioned facing forwards, backwards, or side mounted). Choke plate, choke shaft, choke linkage, and choke mechanism may be removed; choke horn removal permitted. The following carburetor combinations are allowed, regardless of year/make/model of entry:



•Buick 400-455; Single Carter, AFB, Edelbrock or Q-Jet, inline 2x4 with Carters, AFBs or Edelbrocks.
•Chevy 348-409; Inline 2x4, inline 3x2 with Rochesters or single 4bbl with Carters, AFBs, Edelbrocks or Rochesters.
•Chevy 396-454; Single 4bbl with Rochester, Carter,AFB, Edelbrock or Holley, Inline 2x4 with Carters, AFBs, Edelbrocks or Holleys, Inline 3x2 Holleys.
•Chrysler Hemi; Inline 2x4 or single 4bbl intake with Carters, AFBs, Edelbrocks, Holleys; or cross-ram 2x4 intake with Holleys.
•Chrysler Wedge; Inline or cross-ram 2x4 or single 4bbl intake with Carters, AFBs, or Edelbrocks.
•Ford; Inline 2x4 intakes, inline 3x2, or single 4bbl with Holleys.
•Pontiac; Inline 2x4 intakes or single 4bbl with Carters, AFBs, or Edelbrocks; or inline 3x2 with Rochesters.
•AMX 390—Cross ram 2x4 bbl intakes with Holleys.
•Olds 400-455; 1x4 Q-Jet, inline with 3x2 Rochesters.
CARBURETOR (F/X CLASSES): Vehicles in these classes permitted the use of carburetors listed for NSS, or Holley up to 850 cfm in size (no Dominators).

Multiple Carburetion Preferred

Racers with current legal National Muscle Car Association and Monster Mopar Dave Duell Classic single 4-bbl carburetor/intake manifold/vehicle combinations are encouraged to change to multiple carburetion. Racers with combinations currently under construction are also encouraged to use multiple carburetion.


Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 04:37 PM

I too would like to know about makeing the AVS carbs work.

The only way I can think of the inline carbs would be better is if you had them very tall to get longer runners and a big plenum, or if you could run an IR manifold but I don't think an AVS would work very good that way because the primaries and secondaries are not exactly the same. A holley with 4 identicle venturies would be needed and they would have to be huge like probably the biggest dominators you could find. Each venturi needs to flow about as much as the port in the head, for example if your heads flow 300 cfm you would need 2 1200CFM carbs. Motor cycle carbs are desighned like that so they can idle smooth as glass at 1000 rpm but pull like crazy at 15,000 rpm, a plenum make a small carb seem bigger but it will ruin the idle also.

If it was me I would run a cross ram with two AVS carbs and probably get some super stock hemi gu-ru to go through them. If you are running a wedge that looks like the best option.
Posted By: mr_340

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 05:13 PM

Most of the guys around Texas seem to run the Indy "crossram" intake, although the two AFBs are almost inline. This is both the Hemi version as well as the wedge (440-25). There was a guy from Division 1 running the Indy crossram (426-8) on his SS/E RO Plymouth and he set a record with that car, so the Hemi intake must work pretty well.

I'd get another 800 AVS since you already have one. I think most of the guys are using the AFB version, but I haven't looked that close at the carbs. Chuck Beach runs an AVS on his 340 Stocker and supposedly makes his own accerator pump piston to make it launch. That may be something to play with?
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 05:15 PM

There aren't very many intake manifolds to pick from so start with the possible solutions and work from that list. About the only thing that is available new for Edelbrock heads would be the Edelbrock dual carb intake. The Indy cross ram works nice but it is for Max Wedge heads. The original cross rams don't work as well as the Indy cross ram but once again, they only fit the MW heads.
Posted By: Greg

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 05:30 PM

I would call Damon at Diamondback engines. I got my carbs from him and he appears to know all the tricks from what I understand.

Diamonback Engines
Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/20/08 05:35 PM

Posted By: Mike Miller

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 05:50 PM

AVS carbs are not legal in most NSS organizations.

Definately give Damon a call..... the man can tell you what intake works best and can supply the carbs and modify the intake to optimize everything. He is one of the best their is with NSS carb/intake setups.
Posted By: mr_340

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 06:06 PM

Quote:

AVS carbs are not legal in most NSS organizations.



"•Chrysler Hemi; Inline 2x4 or single 4bbl intake with Carters, AFBs, Edelbrocks, Holleys; or cross-ram 2x4 intake with Holleys.
•Chrysler Wedge; Inline or cross-ram 2x4 or single 4bbl intake with Carters, AFBs, or Edelbrocks."

I don't see anything restricting him to an AFB style carb. Maybe that was their intention to limit it to AFBs, but that is not the way I interpret the rules. It looks like any Edelbrock carb would be legal, including the QJ carb. For that matter, it looks to me any Carter carb would be legal including the TQ. Showing up with a pair of 1000cfm CS TQ carbs might cause a bit of a stir?
Posted By: Mike Miller

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 06:19 PM

The spirit of the rules is to replicate what was available during the time these cars ran when new. The T-Quads and Dominators weren't availa ble yet and I am not sure when the AVS came about. I do see what you meen in the rules...... sort of a Smokie Yunick way of interpreting them.


"If it doesn't say you can't, then it must be OK"
Posted By: mr_340

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 06:31 PM

Mike, I'm just pointing out a loophole in their rules. I think they should be more specific and remove the comma between Carter and AFB if they mean to run a Carter AFB. Also, in looking at it, it appears to me that a Dominator would be legal in NSS but not in FX classes. If there is a loophole, someone will find it and exploit it.

I agree with the spirit of NSS, it should be limited to what was available at the time. To me that would mean they should get rid of the stupid looking 5"-6" tall MW and Hemi scoops. They don't look period correct to me. There was an AFX Hemi scoop that was taller in the front that would be period correct.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 06:47 PM

yes, damon makes a very good carb

But if I recall right you Know Gary Jacob?... He is also very knowledgable about these carbs.

I dont know if you are building a bigger motor or not, but I would reccomend some 750's AFB but if you build a bigger motor then go ahead and get the 800's On the intake I would go with an INDY crossram, but make sure you put some sort of burst panel on it.

Ps... glad to see you getting into NSS

Casey

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 06:53 PM

If your running a wedge with standard 440 size intake ports, which I'm assuming you are, use the inline eddy two four intake and hook the carb linkage up one ot one. Plan on trying several different thickness(1/2, one inch and maybe 1.5 and two inch thick to find what the motor wants as far as carb spacer under the carbs at the track. Tuned properly that combo should run as good or faster than the single Dominator. If your using a set of wedge heads with M.W. ports use the Indy bathtub intake with the inline two four top, offset or not depending on what you want. If the AVS carbs are not legal get a set of Carter competition sereis 750 CFM or a set of non smog Eddy 750 cfm carbs and jet them as needed
Posted By: dannysbee

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 07:01 PM

If you look closely at the Eddy AVS you will see that it is nothing more than a AFB with an adapted air door. It is not an AVS in the Carter since of the word. Just an AFB with externally adjustable secondary opening.
Posted By: cgall

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/20/08 07:13 PM

When Don Bales first started racing in the CC Hemi class, he had Jeff Russell swap the single dominator for an Indy intake and two Eddy 750's. Jeff had that setup tuned real well, but the dominator was still about 1/10 quicker.
Posted By: nss guy

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 02:00 AM

The Indy intake and 2 750 AFB's. The jetting right out of the box is close enough. You will be less than a tenth slower than the dominator.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 02:18 AM

I would recomend to replace the stock needle and seats with the larger ones. I am tapping the other side as well to make them dual lines..If you use a Indy 440-25 I would get a pop off valve for it..I have seen a lot of them topless...

Attached picture 4891839-coronet096.jpg
Posted By: 69CHARGERMD

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 03:14 AM

Will the INDY intake work with my Edelbrock HEADS ?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 03:37 AM

Indy intake is max wedge port size...
Posted By: 69CHARGERMD

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 10:45 AM

Thanks for the replys guys,,,,this is the info i needed.

Looks like i will have to find the intake that i can use ( with the E heads),,,and go from there,,,like mentioned above.

Sounds like the INDY intake is not an option.

Right now,,the car is a 440,,nothing fancy,,,eventually i will do a 572,,but that is a few years out,,,,so i might focus on what i have and build the NSS stuff accordingly,,,(unless i can convince Casey to let me "borrow" his motor )

thanks again for all the advice,,,,
Posted By: dvw

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 01:30 PM

The Eddy heads can be opened up to max wedge. There is a 63 Dodge the runs this set-up in the Detroit area with the Indy manifold. Full interior, saw it driving down Woodward during the dream cruise. It runs as I remember 10.30 thru the mufflers. I've talked to Jake, he's found any of the AFB style carbs work about the same. Also the NSS car he drives dynoed better w/2 AFB carbs than w/2 Holleys. It ran quicker also. I believe its gone [Email]9.05@148.[/Email] As for the burst panels in the intake. I had one of the 1st Indy manifolds . I was told to always start the motor with the throttle blades wide open. That way if it coughs there's an opening for the pressure. It seems wierd at first until you get the hang of it. Then it will start smoothly w/o revving high.
Doug
Posted By: formula S

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 03:26 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the replys guys,,,,this is the info i needed.

Looks like i will have to find the intake that i can use ( with the E heads),,,and go from there,,,like mentioned above.

Sounds like the INDY intake is not an option.

Right now,,the car is a 440,,nothing fancy,,,eventually i will do a 572,,but that is a few years out,,,,so i might focus on what i have and build the NSS stuff accordingly,,,(unless i can convince Casey to let me "borrow" his motor )

thanks again for all the advice,,,,

You could modify an Indy intake to fit E-heads by welding or epoxy the ports, and then just port them to E-head size. Then when you do your 572 you'll already have an intake just port it back to MW it will save you from buying two intakes plus the indy intake probably will out perform the Edelbrock 4x2 inline intake manifold
Posted By: 69CHARGERMD

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 04:54 PM

Here is a pic of the Edelbrock 4x2 (see pic below) ?

Does anyone have any experience with this manifold ?

I realize it's a step down from the INDY set up...

list's for $295 at Summit

Do you think it could be "re-worked" a bit...

This would be a inexpensive option to get the car "legal" for me to run some NSS stuff...and get my feet wet, see if i like it,,,etc...

I will pull out all the stops when i do a 572 INDY motor,,down the road......

The heads on the car have been ported and re-worked,,,by Dwayne Porter,,,I dont want to pull them off,,and do anymore to them...
Would rather find a "bolt on" deal i can do....and have fun....
Sounds like the car will slow down from where it is now,,,but that might be ok,,,if i can keep it legal,,,and still crack the 10 sec barrier with a multi-carb setup,,,,(runs 10.26 now,,,)

Thanks again guys for the suggestions.......

Posted By: firefighter3931

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 05:14 PM

Sounds like a cool deal Doug....NSS =

Why not pull the e-heads and have them port matched to the ICH MW manifold as was mentioned above ? It should still easily run the 10.50 index i would think.

Then when you do the big cube combo you're all set on the intake side.


The A&A crossram is another option and it would bolt right onto the std port e-heads but then you would need a new intake when you build the big cube combo. The A&A piece is expensive as well but would provide the path of least resistance.


Ron


Ps. Merry Christmas
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 07:07 PM

Doug,
We ran that same intake before we switched to the Indy. That was when we were runnin 12.0's tho. It ran pretty good for what it was but the indy was a good 2/10's quicker.



Casey
Posted By: Greg

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 08:39 PM

Doug,

It would be worth a call to Damon at Daimondback and discuss your options. I think he was going to design an old style intake that is not currently available.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/21/08 10:13 PM

The "as cast" 440 port crossram from A&A is $1,300
Damon is working on a low deck NSS manifold.

Attached picture 4893403-coronet007.jpg
Posted By: Steve1118

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/22/08 12:38 AM

I've never had any experience with the Eddy 2x4 intake, but Cab said in an earlier post it runs fairly close to a single dominator with iron heads.

Sort of an interesting combination.....does anyone have any more input on that setup?
Posted By: 69CHARGERMD

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/22/08 12:56 AM

Thanks Pop,,,the A and A intake looks nice,,,but way too much $$,,,plus i would have to get all the linkage,,,and then the carbs,,,, $$

Steve,,,I might do some research into the Edelbrock intake,,,and see what i can find out.. ..Chuck up at Best Machine did my motor,,,,i might run it by him,,,and see what he thinks,,,that way i could swap that intake/carbs on and off as i choose,,,and not mess with the heads,,


I will try and send Damon an email as well........thanks guys,
Posted By: goldenlancer

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/22/08 01:13 AM

I had that intake on a 470 in my lancer. I also Had a M1 with a dominator. The dom ran a 10;24 REALLY CONSISTANT. The 2X4's ran a best of 10:46 which was perfect for the 10:50 class. I also ran a 1 inch spacer under the carbs to try to get a little bit more plenium, that was with 2 650's I put the 750's on and there was no difference. If you put the intake on you will run out of intake about 6,000 where the dom.was good for 7000. It took about 20 minutes to swap intakes. Hope this helps Bill
Posted By: racerAL

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/22/08 01:53 AM

I got that eddy intake sitting in my garage right now.planning on putting it on here w/in the next month or so.There was NO way i could afford a ICH set-up and i really wanted to run the NSS stuff.I been watching e-bag for the last month or so and found 2 nice carter comp carbs...If your $ is tight and you want to get into this type of racing,i don't see any other real option (other than runnin a single carb).I'am not too concearned about the performance loss or gains,it's index racing-get it to the track see what it wants to run and go from there.With weight ballast and tunning should be able to find a comfortable index to race.
Posted By: Steve1118

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/22/08 02:47 AM

Bill, just out of curiosity, what was the rest of that combo? We have one of those intakes laying around......
Posted By: goldenlancer

Re: Getting 2 Edelbrck carbs=1 Dominator for NSS HELP...... - 12/22/08 02:55 AM

well it was a stroked 400 with a set of diamond flat tops home ported sr"s 65 CC12.5 comp ratio with a 650 roller in it aluminum rods harland sharp rockers nothing special it was in a 3250 # car with driver 5000 stall 727 456gear on 29.5x110.5 tire .
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