Moparts
Did WJ really say ??? .....
Posted By: dOc …
Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 06:13 AM
..... I was SURE he said 200k$ on valve springs during a season of racing .... BUTTT did he actually say that a rear end housing was 250k$ .... JUST for the empty housing ? .... What-the-fugg ....
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 06:29 AM
i don't think it was just the housing it was a complete system and it could be urban legend. iirc it might have been something cagnazzi was using.
imho they need to get back to what the class was originally intended to be which was representative of heavily modified road cars. use camaros, challengers, mustangs, EFI, use current engine platforms, manual transmissions, prohibit parts made of unobtainium and come up with a formula that levels the playing field. maybe even do away with complete purpose built tube chassis.
i know it would be a major and very painful shift for the teams but personally i think the end result would be positive and if implemented would eventually curb costs and encourage more participation.
Posted By: dOc …
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 07:30 AM
A complete system ? ..,. that means ?? ...., anything and everything attached or inside that housing ? ... And what would be so expensive these days (vs 10 years ago) ... That would drive the costs up that much ?
Agreed on getting back to what the class was "meant" to be.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 08:39 AM
They already have such as class as James described. It's called Super Stock.
Funny thing about WJ, he wasn't whining about cost when he was on top and one of the ones escalating the cost.
It's been a rich man's game for a very long time, both from the standpoint of car costs, and from the fact that there are 20+ national events on the tour now.
Posted By: 67_Satellite
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 02:17 PM
Yeah, I heard the babbling about the high cost of springs,etc and thought it sounded awfully high.But then again, it came out of W.J's mouth so I didn't put too much stock in it.The best W.J. babble came from a post race interview years ago. He had just had a lengthy staging duel with Scott Geoffrion,got beat on the tree, and beat to the stripe E.T. wise and was "unhappy". He said something to the effect of "The punk should learn how to race before pulling something like that". I thought,he just beat YOU at both ends of the track dude,pipe down and move on. Wasn't he wining pretty consistently about 6 or 8 years ago until there was some sort of a new fuel testing rule passed, then suddenly he's a middle-of-the-packer?
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 02:48 PM
They were running Titanium valve springs which are extremely expensive and don't last very long.
Also, I bet WJ was complaining that someone had a rear end housing built out of Titanium for weight savings, which could cost a boat load of money with the brackets, ends, welding, machining, etc.
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Yeah, I heard the babbling about the high cost of springs,etc and thought it sounded awfully high.But then again, it came out of W.J's mouth so I didn't put too much stock in it.The best W.J. babble came from a post race interview years ago. He had just had a lengthy staging duel with Scott Geoffrion,got beat on the tree, and beat to the stripe E.T. wise and was "unhappy". He said something to the effect of "The punk should learn how to race before pulling something like that". I thought,he just beat YOU at both ends of the track dude,pipe down and move on. Wasn't he wining pretty consistently about 6 or 8 years ago until there was some sort of a new fuel testing rule passed, then suddenly he's a middle-of-the-packer?
That sounds a bit like revisionist history. Johnson won that race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo7b68C_rt4
Posted By: Chris2581
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 02:59 PM
It was Dave Connolly he called a punk.WJ has always had something to say regarding the class,or drag racing in general,but he is right,unless you have a 2.5 mil+ sponsor,it will be hard to compete.The sanctioning bodies are not going to make any sweeping changes to any of the classes because of parts inventory and R&D that went into the cars and such.Mopar tried years ago to get WJ and Kurt in a Dodge and he told them 4 mil to do it just because of all the parts and work that would have to be done to switch over.I will say his work ethic is one that alot of other teams could try to duplicate.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 03:08 PM
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Yeah, I heard the babbling about the high cost of springs,etc and thought it sounded awfully high.But then again, it came out of W.J's mouth so I didn't put too much stock in it.The best W.J. babble came from a post race interview years ago. He had just had a lengthy staging duel with Scott Geoffrion,got beat on the tree, and beat to the stripe E.T. wise and was "unhappy". He said something to the effect of "The punk should learn how to race before pulling something like that". I thought,he just beat YOU at both ends of the track dude,pipe down and move on. Wasn't he wining pretty consistently about 6 or 8 years ago until there was some sort of a new fuel testing rule passed, then suddenly he's a middle-of-the-packer?
That sounds a bit like revisionist history. Johnson won that race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo7b68C_rt4
Hard to believe that was almost 20 years ago now. Thanks for the remembrance. 
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 04:11 PM
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They already have such as class as James described. It's called Super Stock.
that is NOT what i'm talking about, bring them into this century for crying out loud. do you really think the current configuration they run makes sense?
um yea lets see when was the last carbureted BB sold? was that around 40 years ago? i have to laugh when people say "mopar" won prostock over "chevy" and a "ford" can't compete. give me a break there's not one single mopar, chevy, or ford screw on those cars and they all look like a soap bar going down the track. hell why not have a toyota prostock. now it's become so expensive they're having trouble filling the field. those guys are spending a bazillion dollars to pick up .01
everyone is entitled to their opinion, i guess i just don't see what these cars are "supposed" to be
Posted By: 67_Satellite
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 04:18 PM
I stand corrected on the outcome, but the tactics at the tree seem to have worked for Scott. So let's review,Connely is the punk, Geoffrion the jerk,for playing the same game that W.J. was playing(how dare he),and W.J. is the whiner no matter the outcome.
I don't doubt he works very hard at a sport which is very expensive, and wish him all the best in his next great endeavour after he quits/retires from racing. Hopefully it won't include him crying on my TV about it's declining popularity or high costs.
Posted By: therocks
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 04:21 PM
Pro Stock motorcycle is the same way.You cant tell them apart without a program.Then they keep changing the rules.Suzuki had no problem when they were winning almost every round and race.Then the HDs and Buells starting winning.Lets add weight etc to the HDS.I used to like crying Antron when he lite the red bulb.Always "Its the lights".Funny he never complained when he didnt red light.Rocky
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 07:21 PM
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That sounds a bit like revisionist history. Johnson won that race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo7b68C_rt4
Is that Greg Anderson at 3:58?
Posted By: AAR-B4
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/17/13 07:50 PM
Yes, Greg Anderson was crew chief for WJ back then.
Steve Evans was the best!
Posted By: MoparBilly
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 07:50 AM
I was speaking to a friend on one of the top non-mopar teams who said they can no longer get 3 runs on a set of springs, the car will slow down on the third run!
Posted By: dOc …
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 07:58 AM
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I was speaking to a friend on one of the top non-mopar teams who said they can no longer get 3 runs on a set of springs, the car will slow down on the third run!
Just slow down ... Or will the valves start hitting the pistons ? ... How many companies are making those springs ? ... And what is the 411 on the rear end housing and that being a huge expense ?
Posted By: Slingshot383
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 06:06 PM
The rearend housing is titanium, brackets and all. Less unsprung weight, quicker to respond to changes in transfer of torque and track conditions with the shocks.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 07:17 PM
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I was speaking to a friend on one of the top non-mopar teams who said they can no longer get 3 runs on a set of springs, the car will slow down on the third run!
Yes this is true of naturally aspirated motor spinning 10K rpms or more.
I used the same valve springs on my 10K rpm hemis, they cost $1600. a set when you buy more than one set at a time, then my cost. We broke 2-3 inner valve springs every run after the first 4-5 runs. Change them all out every 10-12 runs.
Some times it was easier/ quicker to change the whole head. Those are all brand new springs in that picture and is why I took it. To prove to my guys working on my car that we started fresh one year. they didn't like changing valve springs any more than I did. 3 of them lived in Ill and was not in the shop everyday.Real big horepower is expensive.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 08:01 PM
At $1600 a set for spings, it's strange no one has developed a pneumatic valve closing system like F1. I would think that the cost of replacing valve springs every few passes would pay for a pneumatic system rather quickly considering that the pneumatics last many laps at 18K RPM on an F1 car. Is there a rule regarding valve springs that prevents their development in drag cars?
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 08:25 PM
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At $1600 a set for spings, it's strange no one has developed a pneumatic valve closing system like F1. I would think that the cost of replacing valve springs every few passes would pay for a pneumatic system rather quickly considering that the pneumatics last many laps at 18K RPM on an F1 car. Is there a rule regarding valve springs that prevents their development in drag cars?
Yes no new exotic heads for years now.
Posted By: DakFink
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 10:39 PM
I read somewhere that when the Pro Stock Trucks were running. Those teams were spending $40000-50000/yr on springs alone. Again 1-2 passes and done. 10500-11000 rpms per pass.
Posted By: gofish
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 10:54 PM
What are the differences between valvetrain in NASCAR engines versus drag racing? Is it simply difference in application? Tractor pulling is another sport that runs some big RPM for much longer than drag racers.
Danny
Posted By: BradH
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:25 PM
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What are the differences between valvetrain in NASCAR engines versus drag racing?
From what I know (outsider perspective), if you're comparing NASCAR with NHRA Pro Stock, there are big difference in: peak valve lift, rate of lobe acceleration, valve train weights, and durability expectations, just to name what I can think of.
The late Smokey Yunick said something in one of his books decades ago about how he didn't know how pro drag race engines managed to keep their valve train together even for such short runs, because even way back then the drag engines were already pushing the envelope well past where circle track engines dared go. 
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:29 PM
I wonder how nascar can turn 10k plus for 600+ miles
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:29 PM
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..... I was SURE he said 200k$ on valve springs during a season of racing .... BUTTT did he actually say that a rear end housing was 250k$ .... JUST for the empty housing ? .... What-the-fugg ....
Didn't one of the Summit drivers, Jason or Greg say they where spending $100,000.00 a year on valve springs several races back on T.V. 
If so maybe Warren is courting another sponsor and is padding the numbers to enhance the operating expences for the sponsorship budget 
Posted By: BradH
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:36 PM
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I wonder how nascar can turn 10k plus for 600+ miles
They work closely with their cam company's engineers and live and die by the SpinTron. They use all the latest-and-greatest stuff, even if it is still a flat-tappet setup: lower lobe lifts, higher rocker ratios, DLC-coated lifters, welded cam cores for hardness, etc.
It's pretty trick stuff for "just a bunch of solid lifter cams", eh? 
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:50 PM
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What are the differences between valvetrain in NASCAR engines versus drag racing? Is it simply difference in application? Tractor pulling is another sport that runs some big RPM for much longer than drag racers.
Danny
camshaft profiles, engine speed, component weight to name a few
Posted By: dOc …
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:53 PM
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..... I was SURE he said 200k$ on valve springs during a season of racing .... BUTTT did he actually say that a rear end housing was 250k$ .... JUST for the empty housing ? .... What-the-fugg ....
Didn't one of the Summit drivers, Jason or Greg say they where spending $100,000.00 a year on valve springs several races back on T.V. If so maybe Warren is courting another sponsor and is padding the numbers to enhance the operating expences for the sponsorship budget
Padding the numbers ? .,.,, that was on another topic here a day or so ago !! ...
I think AJ said the # 125 or 150 in a past interview.
Posted By: polyspheric
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/18/13 11:55 PM
They should just compare bank statements.
Posted By: gofish
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/19/13 12:04 AM
NASCAR engines do not stay at peak RPM for the full race, they are up and down, some races RPM varies a lot, some not so much. I agree though, a Pro Stock motor cant get a mile or 2 out of valve springs versus several hundred out of a NASCAR set, something is vastly different. I am sure NASCAR does not put quite as much emphasis on how fast the engine accelerates.
What horsepower per cubic inch does a NASCAR engine make? Just over 2? A Pro Stock motor makes almost 3, so I guess some the extra power is made at the sacrifice of valvetrain longevity.
Danny
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/21/13 06:13 AM
Lets do some math. Lets say we are a really good team and we average 6 runs per event and we change after every 2 passes. 1600 X 3 = 4800 per event X 23 (I dont remember how many) events = $110400 just for the races. Now lets figure in all the hours they run on the dyno and in testing. I'll bet that is as much or more than the amount of actual runs. But if we simply double the cost then we still come up with $220,000. Im guessing WJ's figures are correct.
Posted By: jim sciortino
Re: Did WJ really say ??? ..... - 11/21/13 07:00 AM
Pro Stock camshafts are FAR more radical in intensity, opening/closing rates, etc., the spring controls more weight and peak rpm is over 1000rpm higher.....among other things.
Between R&D, test runs, qualifying and eliminations, I have no doubt the cost is in the 100s of 1000s for an entire season.