Moparts
Another update on my 408- advance cam next?
Posted By: mshred
Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 02:54 PM
As some of you have been following my progress this might seem like it was a long time coming lol
I am having a hard time getting my car to run where I want it to and have tried a bunch of things. I just got my converter back from getting loosened this past week and took it to the track. Converter is flashing higher (about 53-5400rpms) and seems like the dead spot before the 60 ft is gone or atleast mostly faded away (my 60's on the first pass with way lean jetting were already much better at 1.51 so I know the re-stall was in the right direction). Car is heavy and im thinking I need to advance the cam to get anything better out of it though in terms of e/t and mph (that is if cam advancing even helps those numbers).
Cam specs are 251/260 at .050 duration
.591 lift int/exh
108LSA installed straight up
Solid flat tappet
Engine is a 408ci pump gas mopar (10.5:1), 5400 8" converter, 4.10 gear, 28" tire, Victor single plane intake, 850DP carb on top of a 1" tapered spacer, 3500lbs race weight. Can't seem to better an 11.28 at 117.8mph in real bad heat, and thats after getting the hook down, having the converter loosened, and playing with jetting and timing and plug heat ranges to get them optimized (I had to drop from an NGK -6 to a -8 in order to get the plugs to show some color and be able to put some timing to it without getting detonation- not sure if this is normal on an iron head, but it seemed to work for me).
Will advancing this cam give me any gains in e/t and mph? Im thinking 60's should improve which should show in e/t given the added torque. Trying to run a 10.90 class with this thing and am having a hard time getting there. Here is a video from my last outing on Saturday. It was unbelievably hot and humid, and a buddy of mine was telling me that I could definitely get more out of it when its cooler, but I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS5irtqoIJA&feature=youtu.beI think I have already actually made up my mind to advance the cam, but curious to see what others have to say about this. If anyone is running a 408 like myself with an advanced cam, can you please post your cam specs, how much advance and what LSA, and what the car 60's, e/t's and mphs?
I guess I just have to keep plugging away at this thing, but im running out of things to try lol
Thanks!
Matthew
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 03:24 PM
I normally advance the cam in any of my engines... but
it also knocks out some of the top end rpm... do you
use the top end rpm(is your set up stringing out the
revs or is there wasted rpm available)... I usually
advance the cam 4* to 6* depending on the cam and set
up... I didnt advance the cam in the Rampage because
I didnt want any more torque to stall the conv higher..
its already 5000 and its a street car.. that cam is
a 105 LSA installed at 105
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 03:48 PM
my 408 has indy heads that flow
325@.700 and my lastest cam works real nice with this combo. my cam is a 260/269@50 about .700 lift and ground on a 106 LS installed at 100.5*. bullets target install spec was 100-102. my compression is 11.4:1 and my timing is locked out at 34*,but I think it may like 36* better. your 408 still sounds like it struggles a bit before getting up on the power. I don't know if it would make a big difference in your 60 advancing the cam,but it sure wont hurt. I would have your cam in at 104*. my vert stalls at 5500 and is an 8". hope this helps.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 03:49 PM
Quote:
I normally advance the cam in any of my engines... but
it also knocks out some of the top end rpm... do you
use the top end rpm(is your set up stringing out the
revs or is there wasted rpm available)... I usually
advance the cam 4* to 6* depending on the cam and set
up... I didnt advance the cam in the Rampage because
I didnt want any more torque to stall the conv higher..
its already 5000 and its a street car.. that cam is
a 105 LSA installed at 105
I shift around 6700rpms, but I could shift higher if I wanted to, though I don't see the benefit because the car is making much more power up there. I realize that advancing will bring the peak power down some, but im thinking that it will really help get this moving off the line, which is where it seems to really be dogging it, although my mph is still low as well.
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 03:59 PM
You should try a ported ebrock airgap intake with a one inch open spacer.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 04:05 PM
I shift at 6700 also. if you advance your cam it wont bring your shift point down much,maybe 6600.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 04:08 PM
Quote:
You should try a ported ebrock airgap intake with a one inch open spacer.
I actually still have my airgap (non ported) and 1" open spacer from my last two builds sitting on the shelf in the garage. Brian at IMM says I should try the intake swap as there will be a noticable gain in power below 5500rpms. But I have some time invested into this single plane and im thinking since the car is spending time above 5500rpm on the track that keeping the single plane if it outperforms the airgap at those levels might be a good idea?
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 04:10 PM
Quote:
my 408 has indy heads that flow [Email]325@.700[/Email] and my lastest cam works real nice with this combo. my cam is a 260/269@50 about .700 lift and ground on a 106 LS installed at 100.5*. bullets target install spec was 100-102. my compression is 11.4:1 and my timing is locked out at 34*,but I think it may like 36* better. your 408 still sounds like it struggles a bit before getting up on the power. I don't know if it would make a big difference in your 60 advancing the cam,but it sure wont hurt. I would have your cam in at 104*. my vert stalls at 5500 and is an 8". hope this helps.
Yea, from what I have seen alot of the mopar sb's, even strokers, are running advanced camshafts. I agree, it still does sound like it is struggling before getting into the powerband. The looser converter definitely helped, but I still think the bottom end needs to be improved, especially with my car weighing what it does.
I feel like advancing the cam is just another thing to try to see if the car will respond or not. I have a feeling it won't pick up the car to where I am hoping, BUT, its worth a shot I think to see what gains I might make with it.
Thanks for the input Dave!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 04:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
You should try a ported ebrock airgap intake with a one inch open spacer.
I actually still have my airgap (non ported) and 1" open spacer from my last two builds sitting on the shelf in the garage. Brian at IMM says I should try the intake swap as there will be a noticable gain in power below 5500rpms. But I have some time invested into this single plane and im thinking since the car is spending time above 5500rpm on the track that keeping the single plane if it outperforms the airgap at those levels might be a good idea?
Next question... do you leave off a trans brake or
foot... whats the lowest rpm you see on the track
and that means on the launch also
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 04:18 PM
I leave off a transbrake...I have tried launching at various rpms, but usually at 3000rpm as it seems like the car works better when I let the converter flash off the line. I have not tried footbraking yet with the loosened converter, but the car did not 60' well off the footbrake before.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 04:26 PM
My opinion is the cam needs to be advanced a little more definetily try it it can be put back one thing at a time.
Higher shifts have too things motor is an air pump the faster it spins the more air it pumps (and power it makes overall)
The other is shift recovery play with that after advancing the cam.
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 05:27 PM
When i dynoed mine the hp peaked at 5800 and dropped off kind of fast.
Yours is a little different but if you advance cam and put on the airgap theres no need to turn it that high.
I did that and my et stayed the same but now i have traction problems from more low rpm torque.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 05:34 PM
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 07:00 PM
Your car is leaving alot better then it was before. But its still not into the power band on launch, but almost. A little more stall would of been better.
I would definately advance that cam from its 108 ICL. Id try it at a 102 ICL, that should help your launch even more. Im not sure if that will be enough to get you your 10.99 Your HP/MPh shows you might not have enough grunt. But your getting close.
If it was really hot and muggy like you say when you ran that 11.2? you may have a chance withe a cam advance and good air combined with the vert adjustment.
You may need to send that vert back for another adjustment. You could also bump your compression up amther 1/2 point to help you get there.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 07:14 PM
You realize this is an "advance your cam" web sight, right?
Actually, your speed and ET are a pretty good match - and the 60 ft's aint that bad. Why don't you try the dual plane first. If your ET improves without too much MPH sacrifice, it could be an indicator that advancing the cam is the right direction to go. Not much was said about the heads you are running, but it could be your limiting factor to get you in to the 10's - looking at it from a MPH standpoint.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 07:33 PM
Actually like Crizilla states, with your new 1.51 60 ft, your incrementals are all inline.
My Optimum Chassis setup chart shows that for 118 MPH in the 1/4 the incrementals on a Well set up car should be close to these numbers.
1.52 60ft. 7.14 1/8 11.25 1/4 @ 118 MPH
your,
1.51 60 ft. ??? 1/8 11.28 1/4 @ 117.8 MPH
Your pretty much spot on. But I would still advance the cam though, because like Criz states, We Like it that way around here,.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 09:22 PM
The fact that my incrementals are all inline with eachother is what has me a little upset...I built this thing to run 10.90's and im struggling to even get 11 oh's out of it. I am running IMM prepped and ported RHS X heads that flow 291/212 cfm at .600"...I agree that the converter could have been loosened more, but at this point sending it back out is not feasible (its almost $450 to get it re-stalled which was covered by them this past time, but next time around I would have to pay...plus the 100 bucks in shipping there and back
)...However, its definitely an improvement over how it was stalling before
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right? Maybe the car will pick...atleast I sure as heck hope so...otherwise this winter its back to the drawing board to figure out how to get more power out of this thing.
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 09:27 PM
Im intressed to know how much you gained going to sissy trans?
Posted By: deaks
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 09:41 PM
I know you're against it but i would uncork the exhaust, let them extra horses out. You dont have to take it off just unbolt it from the headers move it across and stick one bolt back on each side.
A car as heavy as yours is going to need at least 121 to hit a high 10.90.
Mick
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 09:52 PM
Quote:
The fact that my incrementals are all inline with eachother is what has me a little upset...I built this thing to run 10.90's and im struggling to even get 11 oh's out of it. I am running IMM prepped and ported RHS X heads that flow 291/212 cfm at .600"...I agree that the converter could have been loosened more, but at this point sending it back out is not feasible (its almost $450 to get it re-stalled which was covered by them this past time, but next time around I would have to pay...plus the 100 bucks in shipping there and back )...However, its definitely an improvement over how it was stalling before
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right? Maybe the car will pick...atleast I sure as heck hope so...otherwise this winter its back to the drawing board to figure out how to get more power out of this thing.
maybe you are asking for to much at 3500lbs. low compression, steel heads, small cam 
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 09:59 PM
maybe you are asking for to much at 3500lbs. low compression, steel heads, small cam
He is... to ask the times he is looking for in the heat
and he would be lucky to see it in the cool weather
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 10:08 PM
Quote:
maybe you are asking for to much at 3500lbs. low compression, steel heads, small cam
He is... to ask the times he is looking for in the heat
and he would be lucky to see it in the cool weather
and a 410 gear, it sounds more like a street combo. converter needs to be 5600+ 
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 10:29 PM
Yup you drive 100 feet out of the power band advance that cam up check where it is now as you do it!
You can really hear the power come on after 100 feet !
Posted By: A/MP
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/02/13 10:36 PM
What's so great about a 360 stroker is that it pulls from 2500 to 6500 rpms. Running a stroker with a stock block beyond 6500 is asking for a short engine life. Just look at NA dragsters. They are packing 700+ HP and their final drive with tire is about a 3.55 rear gear. They don't need to buzz the motor. They race all season long with the same set up and the motor lasts. Rational... you want to make all your pulling power with this stroker under 6400. Try a 1/2" to 1" carb plate. Well flowed 750 carb. 1 7/8 header and play with extensions. Get you total weight down to 2900lbs. Don't know what you have for heads but have the intake port matched to the heads. There is power to be made there. Food for thought. I recently completed a back up bracket motor. Purple stripe 590 cam and kit, port matched M1, 11:1 pistons and a 1.88 intake J head. How about one dyno pass 628 HP. There is more in a J head or the 596 with the 1.88 intake than most believe. Not knocking anybody who does heads but if you read the Mopar engineers reports on the 360 it does not like the 2.02 intake. That's why they choose the 1.88. Can you make more HP from big valve W5 Brodix or Indy head? Sure but think how cheap a J head is and the valve train parts etc.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:37 AM
Quote:
Im intressed to know how much you gained going to sissy trans?
Combo is totally different than when it had the stick, so there is no comparison...I did however gain consistency and the peace of mind that every pass might be my transmissions last.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:41 AM
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that my incrementals are all inline with eachother is what has me a little upset...I built this thing to run 10.90's and im struggling to even get 11 oh's out of it. I am running IMM prepped and ported RHS X heads that flow 291/212 cfm at .600"...I agree that the converter could have been loosened more, but at this point sending it back out is not feasible (its almost $450 to get it re-stalled which was covered by them this past time, but next time around I would have to pay...plus the 100 bucks in shipping there and back )...However, its definitely an improvement over how it was stalling before
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right? Maybe the car will pick...atleast I sure as heck hope so...otherwise this winter its back to the drawing board to figure out how to get more power out of this thing.
maybe you are asking for to much at 3500lbs. low compression, steel heads, small cam
Do you think so? Im not being sarcastic here either when I say that...I thought a 408 stroker, even with my steel heads, 4.10 gear and 28" tires would be sure fire way to break into or atleast get real close to running 10's in my car...albeit I didn't think my car would weigh as much as it does, but I have seen others post on here about their 3400lb cars going 10's no problem with sb strokers, so I didn't think I would be too far off.
I know removing weight is the easiest way to go faster, but I am honestly out of ideas. I have no backseat, kirkey seats up front, glass hood, aluminum wheels, 904 instead of a 727, no p/s or p/b or a/c...Heck, the only things left would be aluminum heads, glass bumpers, and when I switch to electric fans over my clutch fan (which really I don't think should weigh much anyways)...The mild steel cage added quite a bit of weight to the car, but I have no clue where else to start a diet on this thing.
Not going to lie, I am a little let down with how the car is running...I usually never get my hopes high any time I build a new combo, but this time around I was really gunning and hoping for 10's
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:43 AM
Quote:
What's so great about a 360 stroker is that it pulls from 2500 to 6500 rpms. Running a stroker with a stock block beyond 6500 is asking for a short engine life. Just look at NA dragsters. They are packing 700+ HP and their final drive with tire is about a 3.55 rear gear. They don't need to buzz the motor. They race all season long with the same set up and the motor lasts. Rational... you want to make all your pulling power with this stroker under 6400. Try a 1/2" to 1" carb plate. Well flowed 750 carb. 1 7/8 header and play with extensions. Get you total weight down to 2900lbs. Don't know what you have for heads but have the intake port matched to the heads. There is power to be made there. Food for thought. I recently completed a back up bracket motor. Purple stripe 590 cam and kit, port matched M1, 11:1 pistons and a 1.88 intake J head. How about one dyno pass 628 HP. There is more in a J head or the 596 with the 1.88 intake than most believe. Not knocking anybody who does heads but if you read the Mopar engineers reports on the 360 it does not like the 2.02 intake. That's why they choose the 1.88. Can you make more HP from big valve W5 Brodix or Indy head? Sure but think how cheap a J head is and the valve train parts etc.
your asking me to remove 600lbs out of my car? and trade in my ported aftermarket heads for ported 1.88 valve j heads? I appreciate the input, and I understand what you are getting at, but those are neither realistic or feasible options for me at this point.
Posted By: whiskeyrunner
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:57 AM
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:01 AM
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:07 AM
Quote:
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right?
Yes, try it, it will give you more punch on launch then you have now. 
Then see where your at. IMO , Your going to be closer to your 10.9 then you are now.
After that, my next move for a easy performance increase would be to shave the heads .040 for increased comp. if you have the room P/V clearence wise and pushrod lengths. That should get you there.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:15 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right?
Yes, try it, it will give you more punch on launch then you have now.
Then see where your at. IMO , Your going to be closer to your 10.9 then you are now.
After that, my next move for a easy performance increase would be to shave the heads .040 for increased comp. if you have the room P/V clearence wise and pushrod lengths. That should get you there.
Im going to do it, I have decided that already that is for sure...How much I am going to advance it though is still up in the air.
As for compression, this is a pump gas motor since it is a street car, otherwise I would be running a higher ratio for sure...Unfortunately there is no E-85 around here, but I have thought about adding a water/meth injection kit, although not sure if the extra weight of all that would offset the ability to run the higher compression ratios.
Posted By: SeanD
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:19 AM
A few questions:
1. What is the rolling resistance like on flat level surface? Car SHOULD roll with minimal effort.
2. How long does it take your fuel pump to fill a gallon jug from carb side of regulator? Should take around 11 seconds for your combo preferably less.
2a. What diameter is your fuel line? 10 from tank to regulator 8 from regulator to carb.
3. What convertor are you using?
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:22 AM
Quote:
A few questions:
1. What is the rolling resistance like on flat level surface? Car SHOULD roll with minimal effort.
2. How long does it take your fuel pump to fill a gallon jug from carb side of regulator? Should take around 11 seconds for your combo preferably less.
2a. What diameter is your fuel line? 10 from tank to regulator 8 from regulator to carb.
3. What convertor are you using?
1. car rolls fine on flat ground...you can feel its a heavy bastid, but it rolls
2. I did a fuel pump test earlier in the season to make sure my pump delivers 140gph like its supposed to...it does...and yes, -10 from sump to pump, -8 to regs, -6 to carb
3. Converter is 8" A1 now around 53-5400 stall off the brake
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:29 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right?
Yes, try it, it will give you more punch on launch then you have now.
Im going to do it, I have decided that already that is for sure...How much I am going to advance it though is still up in the air.
Well dont just go 2* advance or so. That wont do much. IMO Id go a minimum of 4* advanced to 104, Minimum. Id probably go 102 ICL as a first test if it fits or there abouts. 101 , 103,
Posted By: 340B5
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:30 AM
...... 'I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving."
4.30's?
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right?
Yes, try it, it will give you more punch on launch then you have now.
Im going to do it, I have decided that already that is for sure...How much I am going to advance it though is still up in the air.
Well dont just go 2* advance or so. That wont do much. IMO Id go a minimum of 4* advanced to 104, Minimum. Id probably go 102 ICL as a first test if it fits or there abouts. 101 , 103,
Yea, I was probably going to go 4 degree's...Just wasn't sure if I should go more...but I think 4 degrees should be a good indicator of whether or not advancing will help the combo overall.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:34 AM
Quote:
...... 'I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving."
4.30's?
I thought about a gear swap as I do want to put a spool in over the winter...But its a street car, and I liked having the 4.10's for when I do drive it on the highway (not often but it does happen)...But then again, this car is becoming more track oriented than anything else.
Would 4.30's even have a noticeable improvement though over 4.10's? Would it not just be better to try a 4.56 ratio instead?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:40 AM
Quote:
Quote:
...... 'I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving."
4.30's?
I thought about a gear swap as I do want to put a spool in over the winter...But its a street car, and I liked having the 4.10's for when I do drive it on the highway (not often but it does happen)...But then again, this car is becoming more track oriented than anything else.
Would 4.30's even have a noticeable improvement though over 4.10's? Would it not just be better to try a 4.56 ratio instead?
You never dynoed this engine did you.. with any steeper
gear your gonna up your trap rpm.... what do your
heads flow at what lift... but RPMs are HP IF your
set up can deliver (as in carb, intake, heads and headers..
have you ever pulled the exhaust yet to see the restriction
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 04:17 AM
Quote:
Quote:
...... 'I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving."
4.30's?
I thought about a gear swap as I do want to put a spool in over the winter...But its a street car, and I liked having the 4.10's for when I do drive it on the highway (not often but it does happen)...But then again, this car is becoming more track oriented than anything else.
Would 4.30's even have a noticeable improvement though over 4.10's? Would it not just be better to try a 4.56 ratio instead?
Would not suggest going 4.56. You will run out of motor way too soon and trap rpm will be over 7K - and don't ask me how I know. 
4.30's might work though - with a 29 or 30" tire.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 05:33 AM
Quote:
Quote:
....Would 4.30's even have a noticeable improvement though over 4.10's? Would it not just be better to try a 4.56 ratio instead?
I wouldnt even consider a gear change for a test improvement. With your 4.10 gear and 28" tires , you can easily swap out and test different slick/tire sizes between 26" and 32" tires to simulate gear swaps.
A 3.91 gear with a 26" tire is more gear then a 4.56 gear and a 32" tire.
Posted By: viperblue72
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 05:54 AM
Get that electric fan on there. A clutch fan robs more power than you realize. A 4.56 gear would too help, especially at 3500 pounds.
I'm not gonna lie though. To gain 3 tenths from your combo without changing much is not going to happen. An 11.30 is ALOT different than a 10.90.
Throw in a
260@050 solid roller. That would be my suggestion.
Posted By: Stroker Scamp
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 06:06 AM
side note, have you taken any weight off the front end, big brace behind front bumper, crash beams in doors, lighten bumper brackets,, should get you at least 50 lbs, under coating removal?
im not an engine guy but your car is lazy off the line then really wakes up bout 60'
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 07:07 AM
Get it weighed.
You might get supprised.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 10:42 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that my incrementals are all inline with eachother is what has me a little upset...I built this thing to run 10.90's and im struggling to even get 11 oh's out of it. I am running IMM prepped and ported RHS X heads that flow 291/212 cfm at .600"...I agree that the converter could have been loosened more, but at this point sending it back out is not feasible (its almost $450 to get it re-stalled which was covered by them this past time, but next time around I would have to pay...plus the 100 bucks in shipping there and back )...However, its definitely an improvement over how it was stalling before
I too am thinking that advancing the cam might not really give me much improvement, if any, at all....but its worth a try right? Maybe the car will pick...atleast I sure as heck hope so...otherwise this winter its back to the drawing board to figure out how to get more power out of this thing.
maybe you are asking for to much at 3500lbs. low compression, steel heads, small cam
Do you think so? Im not being sarcastic here either when I say that...I thought a 408 stroker, even with my steel heads, 4.10 gear and 28" tires would be sure fire way to break into or atleast get real close to running 10's in my car...albeit I didn't think my car would weigh as much as it does, but I have seen others post on here about their 3400lb cars going 10's no problem with sb strokers, so I didn't think I would be too far off.
I know removing weight is the easiest way to go faster, but I am honestly out of ideas. I have no backseat, kirkey seats up front, glass hood, aluminum wheels, 904 instead of a 727, no p/s or p/b or a/c...Heck, the only things left would be aluminum heads, glass bumpers, and when I switch to electric fans over my clutch fan (which really I don't think should weigh much anyways)...The mild steel cage added quite a bit of weight to the car, but I have no clue where else to start a diet on this thing.
Not going to lie, I am a little let down with how the car is running...I usually never get my hopes high any time I build a new combo, but this time around I was really gunning and hoping for 10's
yes I do, here is what I know.we all know Brian knows what he is doing.you really don't have the optimum set uo with the converter, gears, etc so that hurts the combo a little but not much. anytime you have an ET goal you should exceed it by a bunch. I would have went with a better set of heads and a roller cam. talk with Brian a roller may pick you up 30hp or so just with a cam change.
Posted By: FlyFish
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 01:43 PM
I've been reading your posts, and honestly, in the heat, for a heavy car like yours I think it is running well (and what I would expect it to run). In cooler air you will probably dip into the 10.90's. That converter change looks like it got you a few tenths (Nice gain), but to run 10.90's in the heat will either take 30+ more HP, or putting that car on a diet to get it down closer to 3200 lbs.
For what its worth, my car runs 10.9's in the heat, but it is about 3200-3250 with driver.
I know you don't want to do this (from previous posts), but dropping the exhaust might get you a tenth or 2...just sayin. Good luck.
Posted By: 1967dartgt
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:11 PM
Low gear set in the 904? Solid roller and more gear.
Posted By: deaks
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:19 PM
Moving the cam will help but you need best part of 4-5 mph to run 10.90, that will take either more cam and head or less weight I believe dropping the exhaust and jetting will gain you at least .15.
Mick
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
...... 'I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving."
4.30's?
I thought about a gear swap as I do want to put a spool in over the winter...But its a street car, and I liked having the 4.10's for when I do drive it on the highway (not often but it does happen)...But then again, this car is becoming more track oriented than anything else.
Would 4.30's even have a noticeable improvement though over 4.10's? Would it not just be better to try a 4.56 ratio instead?
I think 4 degree's will be fine you just need to get into the power band at the launch and your car will wake right up! By listening to your car i'm sure i'm right and had you listened to me long ago you would have bee knocking on the 10's long ago.
when you can hear the power level change 100 feet out that is a big problem.
advance it 4 deg and try it.
a 4.30 gear will only give you .075 to .01 tops I think you advance the cam to 104 and you will go 10.90 next time out!
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:44 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
...... 'I want this thing to go 10.90's in the heat, and im thinking advancing the cam is the only thing left to get this pig of an a-body moving."
4.30's?
I thought about a gear swap as I do want to put a spool in over the winter...But its a street car, and I liked having the 4.10's for when I do drive it on the highway (not often but it does happen)...But then again, this car is becoming more track oriented than anything else.
Would 4.30's even have a noticeable improvement though over 4.10's? Would it not just be better to try a 4.56 ratio instead?
I think 4 degree's will be fine you just need to get into the power band at the launch and your car will wake right up! By listening to your car i'm sure i'm right and had you listened to me long ago you would have bee knocking on the 10's long ago.
when you can hear the power level change 100 feet out that is a big problem.
advance it 4 deg and try it.
a 4.30 gear will only give you .075 to .01 tops I think you advance the cam to 104 and you will go 10.90 next time out!
while I agree he pay pick up, I just dont see a .3 gain in the same conditions
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 02:55 PM
a 4.30 gear will only give you .075 to .01 tops I think you advance the cam to 104 and you will go 10.90 next time out!
while I agree he pay pick up, I just dont see a .3 gain in the same conditions
In reality he needs .4... he wants to run 10.90 for
the class.. now he is 11.28(lets round that to 11.30)
and .4 isnt gonna happen with the same conditions ..
for testing I would advance the cam, drop the exhaust
and see what ya get
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 03:11 PM
Quote:
a 4.30 gear will only give you .075 to .01 tops I think you advance the cam to 104 and you will go 10.90 next time out!
while I agree he pay pick up, I just dont see a .3 gain in the same conditions
In reality he needs .4... he wants to run 10.90 for
the class.. now he is 11.28(lets round that to 11.30)
and .4 isnt gonna happen with the same conditions ..
for testing I would advance the cam, drop the exhaust
and see what ya get
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 09:26 PM
Hey guys,
I appreciate all the input and responses on this! I am trying to stay positive too and not get disappointed with where im at. I don't really want to spin the motor higher than I am, and even though it does make power higher, it seems to run best where I am currently shifting it.
As for removing the exhaust, it ain't going to happen..Especially since the class I want to run requires running mufflers/exhaust. Will I gain? possibly, but if I can't use those gains when I race, I don't see the point.
I am going to actually head outside in the next little bit to get the timing cover off the motor and advance the cam. Im really hoping this will wake the car up. I also never thought about it, but a low gear set in the 904 could also possibly help my cause without having to change the rear gear ratio.
As for the elephant like weight, im going to have to do some serious and creative thinking about what im going to remove off this thing or change. I was thinking glass bumpers, but I really like how the chrome ones look. I have never lightened the bumper brackets, but I guess its worth a shot (there is also no brace behind either to remove). My car has no crash bars, and the undercoating is all still there just because I drive this thing even in rain and like the protection it provides. I am however thinking about ditching the whole heater box setup, going alum rad and electric fans, and if I can find a nice chrome finish for fibreglass, then going that route for the bumpers. If I can get this thing to weigh somewhere in the 3300lb range with me in it I would be happy, but I think thats going to take alot.
But one thing at a time though...Going to get that cam advanced and see what it does for me. Im wondering if that will also change the jetting that the car likes, as I already know the car will probably want to be shifted somewhat lower than the 6700rpms it currently sees.
Ideally better heads and a solid roller would be the way to go, but im going to try and work with what I have and see what the car does before winter- if im not happy with the performance, then maybe over the winter those are some options for me to think about.
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 09:38 PM
Comparing it to my old motor, mine was 20 cubes smaller, 11.3:1 compression, heads went
280@600 on Brians bench, 263/268@.050 solid FT. Otherwise pretty similar. You need more camshaft.
3500# mine went
10.75@123 in the heat with 4.10's and a 27" tire. Low first gear 904.
Posted By: 383man
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 09:42 PM
You know I think like you that I wont put glass bumbers on my 63 either as I like the look of chrome bumbers. I still have my heater box and all also in my car. I also set a goal and wanted to achive it on pump thru the full exh and without removing weight from the car as I wanted it to stay a street car and not turn into a race car. My goal was 10's like that on pump thru the pipes even driving to the track. You are getting very close to your goal and I agree advancing the cam is a good idea. It dont cost anything much and cant hurt to try.
But remember no matter what it runs it does run pretty good already for the combo and you have one of the best looking cars out there by far. Its one of the nicest A-bodies I have seen. And this is what its all about trying our tricks and working on our cars always trying to go faster. Good luck with it and let us know how the advanced cam turns out.
Ron
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 09:52 PM
I understand that you dont want to/cant take the exhaust
off for your class... BUT for testing reasons you
should take it off and see how much you gain... it
very well could be just your muffs are SUPER RESTRICTIVE
but without testing it you will never know... if they
are restrictive you could go with other muffs that
flow much better and yet are still quiet... so dont
take it like I want you to drop them off every time
you go to the track.... its TESTING
Posted By: 340Bird
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 10:30 PM
my is not close to what you have but not that far off.
.570 .572 266 274 @ .050 106 center
418" 13.7 comp edelbrock rpm heads, Holley strip dominator intake.
850 hp carb.
4.88 with a 29.5 tire 4 speed. Car is around 3000#
best so far 10.65 @ 126
If I can get it to hook I know it has 10.50 or better.
I need to go down in gears 4.30 or 4.56 it's running out of rpm's. I'm hitting the 7000 chip way before the strip.
Posted By: D-50
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 11:10 PM
I know you probably do not want to do this but you could put a NOS kit on it and spray 50-75 shot on it and get your 10.90. Then you would not have to change your gear ratio or any of the other things you may have to do to get where you want. You will still be as street friendly as you are now. I am thinking about doing that to mine to run in our 6.00 class at my local 1/8 mile track.It would be the easiest solution. You could put a NOS timer on it to dial in your e.t.
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/03/13 11:24 PM
I also agree with advancing the cam, 4 degrees ought to do it some good.
Mt old 66 dart I raced would go 2 tenths faster with no fan at all than with the clutch fan witch I thought I needed the biggest baddest fan so it was pretty big, 4 bolts was easy enough to test back to back, when I put in an electric fan it did not slow back down. I gained a couple tenths from low gears in the 904 but it was geared pretty high (2.94).
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 12:19 AM
Quote:
I know you probably do not want to do this but you could put a NOS kit on it and spray 50-75 shot on it and get your 10.90. Then you would not have to change your gear ratio or any of the other things you may have to do to get where you want. You will still be as street friendly as you are now. I am thinking about doing that to mine to run in our 6.00 class at my local 1/8 mile track.It would be the easiest solution. You could put a NOS timer on it to dial in your e.t.
I credit him for wanting to do it the harder old-school way. Anyone can add a little shot and do it. As soon as he gets that car to pickup in the first 100 feet he is going to have to worry about slowing it down to run the 10.90 index. Good-luck and you will be there in no time as advancing the cam SHOULD be a step in the right direction.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 01:49 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I know you probably do not want to do this but you could put a NOS kit on it and spray 50-75 shot on it and get your 10.90. Then you would not have to change your gear ratio or any of the other things you may have to do to get where you want. You will still be as street friendly as you are now. I am thinking about doing that to mine to run in our 6.00 class at my local 1/8 mile track.It would be the easiest solution. You could put a NOS timer on it to dial in your e.t.
I credit him for wanting to do it the harder old-school way. Anyone can add a little shot and do it. As soon as he gets that car to pickup in the first 100 feet he is going to have to worry about slowing it down to run the 10.90 index. Good-luck and you will be there in no time as advancing the cam SHOULD be a step in the right direction.
Posted By: D-50
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 02:12 AM
I think he is going to have to do a whole lot more than degreeing the cam to pick up over 4 tenths. A lot bigger roller cam or a head swap. That is why I mentioned the NOS.Plus with the NOS and timer he could dial in for the hot or good air by adjusting the timer, that would be easier to get to run exactly 10.90 regardless of the air quality.In the index class he has to run as close to 10.90 as possible without breaking out.
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 02:23 AM
I ran a
10.12@130mph in my 2850 pound pump gas Duster two weeks ago in some crappy Pittsburgh Summer air. My Edelbrock heads flow less than his 292cfm heads, my 540-550 solid lifter cam is way smaller than his, and I know I am giving up some ET with a powerglide trans compared to his 904. My 750 holley works fine but I know a bigger carb would be a tad quicker. My 14-32's are WAY over-kill and my 5200 stall is about on par with his. No NOS needed just some test&tunes like he is doing. So do the math and calculate the weight per ET and you will see what can be done. Oh and if you don't think a powerglide is slower than a 904 in a small block car ask a few of our member that tried that combo and QUICKLY went back to a 904.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 02:24 AM
I am determined to get this thing to go in the 10's on the motor...It has had a cheater plate kit on top of the manifold for the past 2 years and has not been used once- last year the motor croaked before I could, and this year I want to get a 10's pass on the motor before I spray it...A friend of mine who LIVES for spray has been riding me all summer to just spray it, especially now since I still haven't hit 10's. But I refuse to use it to pick up such a small amount- even if it needs better heads or a roller cam, I will do that over the winter to get it into the 10's before I spray it.
I got started on advancing the cam, but unfortunately having the car outside makes me mercy to the dark, so I have everything ready to go for tomorrow for when I get home from work to finish it up (not to mention my nitrous buddy came over unexpectedly and talked my ear off for a couple hours lol). Do I think advancing the cam will make a HUGE difference? maybe, maybe not, gotta try it and see...but if some changes don't get me where I need to be, possibly heads and cam, or just cam over the winter might be what I am looking at. Gotta give Brian at IMM a call and discuss with him about this stuff.
I am definitely looking to put an electric fan on this thing..Next time out im going to pull off the clutch fan for a pass and see what it runs and just get my friend to tow me back as I don't think I will be able to get an electric setup in time for this year (got alot of other stuff going on right now too).
Oh, does anybody have a 904 low gearset they are willing to part with for a reasonable price? lol
Posted By: D-50
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 02:33 AM
Quote:
I ran a [Email]10.12@130mph[/Email] in my 2850 pound pump gas Duster two weeks ago in some crappy Pittsburgh Summer air. My Edelbrock heads flow less than his 292cfm heads, my 540-550 solid lifter cam is way smaller than his, and I know I am giving up some ET with a powerglide trans compared to his 904. My 750 holley works fine but I know a bigger carb would be a tad quicker. My 14-32's are WAY over-kill and my 5200 stall is about on par with his. No NOS needed just some test&tunes like he is doing. So do the math and calculate the weight per ET and you will see what can be done. Oh and if you don't think a powerglide is slower than a 904 in a small block car ask a few of our member that tried that combo and QUICKLY went back to a 904.
I know a powerglide is slower that is the reason I would never run one. I am running a stock 727 now and I am going to try to swap to a 904 this winter. I think he is 650 lbs heavier than your car.
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 02:56 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I ran a [Email]10.12@130mph[/Email] in my 2850 pound pump gas Duster two weeks ago in some crappy Pittsburgh Summer air. My Edelbrock heads flow less than his 292cfm heads, my 540-550 solid lifter cam is way smaller than his, and I know I am giving up some ET with a powerglide trans compared to his 904. My 750 holley works fine but I know a bigger carb would be a tad quicker. My 14-32's are WAY over-kill and my 5200 stall is about on par with his. No NOS needed just some test&tunes like he is doing. So do the math and calculate the weight per ET and you will see what can be done. Oh and if you don't think a powerglide is slower than a 904 in a small block car ask a few of our member that tried that combo and QUICKLY went back to a 904.
I know a powerglide is slower that is the reason I would never run one. I am running a stock 727 now and I am going to try to swap to a 904 this winter. I think he is 650 lbs heavier than your car.
So do the math. 650 pounds equals app 6.5 tenths 10.15 + 6.5 tenths equals app 10.80's but now figure how much I am losing with a powerglide.
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 03:07 AM
To be honest, your goal should be achieavable if the heads are as good at the track as those lofty flow numbers would suggest
I raced( at the time) an all steel completely bone stock bodied 70 Duster. Factory bench seat still installed and I shifted the 727( not a faster 904) off the column.
With roll cage, frame connectors, etc, etc, and my 300 pound butt driving it weighed 3450. Flat factory hood, no scoop then.
416, flat tappet, dinky Tti 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 headers and mild edIdies that went 274 max, per Hensley who stage two ported them. Went 10.74 at almost 124 at almost identical weightas you but without a 904. Would have ran 10.50's swapping out the 727.
Your cam is real small for a 4 inch motor mine was [Email]260@50[/Email] and street able enough to make a 70 mile round trip jaunt to the track and lay down easy 10's through the mufflers.
I would think if those heads are close to being good with a 904 tens should be a piece of cake.
Just my honest
Your going in the right direction with your changes, convertor, and advancing the cam. I have never heard of a 108 cam being installed straight up before, it kills bottom end. Bet it will help you advancing it.
Electric fan and water pump are a free tenth if you want fairly cheap noticeable ET improvement.
Posted By: 72chrgrally
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/04/13 03:59 AM
It's certainly do-able Matt. Have you scaled the car yet? The cheapest way to go faster is to get the weight out of the car. When you caged it did you weigh the tubing you added? I cut a whole lot of weight out of my car with a set of hole saws and some creative plasma cutting. Tubular bumper supports and trimming down EVERY bolt on the car is how I'm shedding weight.
Steve
Posted By: gtsdon
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 12:44 PM
Been following this post and looking forward to seeing what effect advancing the cam makes. Did you get it advanced and will you be running the car anytime soon? Hope the changes get you closer to your goal.
Posted By: RAMM
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 01:04 PM
Advancing the cam will help the ET, but with those already way too fast (port speed) heads I would guess that the MPH will stay the same or even fall slightly. You don't need a lot more grunt--you need more mid to high rpm pull. I have built many 4" arm SBM's and getting one to hang on past 6000 rpm with iron heads (except W2's) is difficult. Throwing more cam at it won't do a thing--You need more CSA and stable air speeds in those heads and manifold. Just my 2 cents. J.Rob
Posted By: skrews
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 05:23 PM
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 06:48 PM
Hey everyone, so an update is in order.
First thing- I didn't advance the camshaft...I had the timing cover off and was about to, but spoke with Brian at IMM first...He was all for me trying it until I told him that at the track I was running a 6 plug with only 30 degrees of timing and threw in a set of 8's (NGK's) to be able to add 34 degrees safely as the 6's showed light peppering aka good ole detonation. I pulled the intake to make sure there was no oil in the ports and that wasn't the cause of it, and sure enough it wasn't. This didn't make me or him comfortable with the idea of advancing the cam, especially since it would only increase my chances for this motor to detonate. Although I am leaving off a brake, the car is still heavy, and with only 4.10 gears, the motor is seeing alot of load. I didn't want to pay the price for detonation issues, so I opted for now to leave the cam as it is in the motor.
So I have put the timing cover back on, and at Brian's recommendation threw on my eddy air gap manifold from last year....Reason being, Brian has seen them make much more power down low than the victor, and even though this motor will spend all of its time above 5000rpms off the line, the extra torque down low should really help get it 60'ing better. I had already had the manifold too, so it was just gaskets and time which doesn't hurt to try.
I have also tightened the lash up to .011" cold intake and exhaust to help close the intake valve a little earlier and see if it helps with the detonation issue. I am running about 10.4:1 cr with 94 octane gas and .039" quench, but the plugs are showing the motor is not happy. For the next outing im going to throw a fresh set in there and go from there with timing and jetting. Hopefully the car will 60' better, and maybe in the cooler air I will see my 10 second timeslip, but I want this thing to go 10's in the heat.
I don't think a bigger cam would really help me at all at this point- car leaves soft already, and a bigger cam is just going to shift the rpm band up anyways. Im also sourcing a low gear set to throw in the 904 before the next outing, so hopefully I will see some gains there as well.
Either way, over the winter I am going to be looking at my options for possible upgrading in heads/cam and losing some weight from the car. For now though all I can do is make a few small changes at a time and see what they net me.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 07:30 PM
Tightening up the lash will make the intake close later not earlier.
Your right about advancing the cam, making the detonation issues worse.
Posted By: deaks
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 07:41 PM
If i were you, i'd be happy with a high 10 in cool air and over winter do as Ramm says and stick a decent set of heads on it, then sell your steel heads to help pay for them.
I swapped my old mildly ported 346 heads, with big valves and a torker int, for a victor int and RPM's done by MCH (Rip Jeff ) milled to 76 cc and picked up .7 and 6 mph.
Mick
Posted By: RobX4406
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 09:18 PM
A car as heavy as yours, with a 4.10 rear/tire set up, should have a low gear set in it.
The stroke will easily eat up any extra RPM drop with the fat TQ band.
Work on the 60's times, which may be helped by the low gear set, there's time there.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 09:19 PM
30*timing
and how are you reading the plugs? did I see you were looking for color of the porcelain? if so you will be tuning forever. color of the porcelain has nothing to due with the tune. other than detecting detonation
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/07/13 09:26 PM
Posted By: 340B5
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/08/13 04:32 PM
WOW, those plugs were ALL wrong. I think you're on the right track and the intake swap will help you keep the 4.10's you love so dearly. The low gear set is a good idea too. You'll at least be knocking on the door next time out.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/09/13 11:19 PM
Hey guys,
I drove the car with the dual plane and tighter lash yesterday for the first time, and I must say there is a very noticeable difference in bottom end torque. I am currently trying to acquire a low gear set locally, and once I get that, I will be going back to the track for testing.
As far as plug reading goes, I basically threw out my own knowledge and listened to a long time racer and friend on reading the plugs...judging by how wrong I was going, im surprised how he hasn't blown his own stuff up!!! lol...That said, I ordered a fresh set of plugs, so next time at the track I will be warming the car up on the old plugs, throw in the new ones, make a pass, and then read and go from there. Im going to start with timing at 30 degrees total which I feel is conservative, then read the plugs and go from there.
As for the detonation issue, im wondering if the gasoline I pumped into my jerry cans was a true 94 octane as I really don't think I should have been getting detonation with only 30 degrees of timing, 94 octane gasoline, .039" quench and 10.5:1 cr...but who knows, maybe I am on the ragged edge for pump gas as it is right now.
All I know is that over the winter for sure this motor will definitely be seeing some changes. What those will be as of yet I do not know, but I want this fat pig to go 10.9999999999 in the heat! Not on a "good" day
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/09/13 11:20 PM
Quote:
WOW, those plugs were ALL wrong. I think you're on the right track and the intake swap will help you keep the 4.10's you love so dearly. The low gear set is a good idea too. You'll at least be knocking on the door next time out.
Yes, I LOVE the 4.10's LOL...In all honesty, I was going to swap them to a higher ratio last year when I had the stick in it, but left them in since it seems many on here run excellent times with 4.10's and 28" tall tires with their SB strokers...I assumed my car would be no different
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/09/13 11:20 PM
Quote:
here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiMM2S0aADM
Thanks for the link Tony!
Posted By: D-50
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/09/13 11:52 PM
I only run 1/8 mile but my ET only changed 1/2 tenth going from 5.14's crossing the finish line in 3rd to 3.50 gears crossing the line in 2nd gear and I gained 1 mph. Now I do not know what gears to buy to replace the broken 5.14's.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 12:11 AM
Quote:
Hey guys,
I drove the car with the dual plane and tighter lash yesterday for the first time, and I must say there is a very noticeable difference in bottom end torque. I am currently trying to acquire a low gear set locally, and once I get that, I will be going back to the track for testing.
As far as plug reading goes, I basically threw out my own knowledge and listened to a long time racer and friend on reading the plugs...judging by how wrong I was going, im surprised how he hasn't blown his own stuff up!!! lol...That said, I ordered a fresh set of plugs, so next time at the track I will be warming the car up on the old plugs, throw in the new ones, make a pass, and then read and go from there. Im going to start with timing at 30 degrees total which I feel is conservative, then read the plugs and go from there.
As for the detonation issue, im wondering if the gasoline I pumped into my jerry cans was a true 94 octane as I really don't think I should have been getting detonation with only 30 degrees of timing, 94 octane gasoline, .039" quench and 10.5:1 cr...but who knows, maybe I am on the ragged edge for pump gas as it is right now.
All I know is that over the winter for sure this motor will definitely be seeing some changes. What those will be as of yet I do not know, but I want this fat pig to go 10.9999999999 in the heat! Not on a "good" day
come on you are not tuning a top fuel dragster 30* timing is not even in the ball park. I would start at 36*. 30* is killing your bottom end. if you are worried about detonation throw some race gas in so you can tune that thing. really you are not even close at 30
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 12:58 AM
I agree, 34° is where I would start.
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 12:59 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hey guys,
I drove the car with the dual plane and tighter lash yesterday for the first time, and I must say there is a very noticeable difference in bottom end torque. I am currently trying to acquire a low gear set locally, and once I get that, I will be going back to the track for testing.
As far as plug reading goes, I basically threw out my own knowledge and listened to a long time racer and friend on reading the plugs...judging by how wrong I was going, im surprised how he hasn't blown his own stuff up!!! lol...That said, I ordered a fresh set of plugs, so next time at the track I will be warming the car up on the old plugs, throw in the new ones, make a pass, and then read and go from there. Im going to start with timing at 30 degrees total which I feel is conservative, then read the plugs and go from there.
As for the detonation issue, im wondering if the gasoline I pumped into my jerry cans was a true 94 octane as I really don't think I should have been getting detonation with only 30 degrees of timing, 94 octane gasoline, .039" quench and 10.5:1 cr...but who knows, maybe I am on the ragged edge for pump gas as it is right now.
All I know is that over the winter for sure this motor will definitely be seeing some changes. What those will be as of yet I do not know, but I want this fat pig to go 10.9999999999 in the heat! Not on a "good" day
come on you are not tuning a top fuel dragster 30* timing is not even in the ball park. I would start at 36*. 30* is killing your bottom end. if you are worried about detonation throw some race gas in so you can tune that thing. really you are not even close at 30
LOL Tony, honestly I don't want to hurt the motor...It won't do me any good to try turning up the wick right away and hurt something- i'll be out more money that way which is a lose in my book.
Not to mention, last time out I 60'd 1.52 and went 117.2mph with 30 degrees timing and the -6 plugs..With the -8's I moved to 34 degrees of timing and more jet, and mph only went up to 117.8, which has been the max this thing has seen before.
I will turn it up, but only after I see that there is no detonation at 30 degrees
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 01:00 AM
Quote:
I agree, 34° is where I would start.
Im going to start at 30 Brian, check for detonation, and if all is well, turn it up...I would think my hesitancy to go right to 34 makes some sense at this point lol
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 01:11 AM
you are not going to hurt that motor, other than killing your bottom end power
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 01:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I agree, 34° is where I would start.
Im going to start at 30 Brian, check for detonation, and if all is well, turn it up...I would think my hesitancy to go right to 34 makes some sense at this point lol
it doesn't make any sense 
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 01:19 AM
There should be no way your detonating at 30*.
IF you are detonating at 30*, and everything else is as stated over the last few months, then you have some sort of ignition issue. 500+ inch motors run more than 30*. As mentioned, if your really worried, buy some good gas and take it right to 34 or 35*.
Amongst all the other " assumed" things, the cylinder head chamber has the most affect on timing. Those chambers arent junk. I just did a 2 BBL RHS head 360,flat tappet, and it made enough power to put a 3200# car to 11.00. It ran best at 35* . The heads could NOT be ported, only a valve job and 1.92 valves.Rules only allowed Edelbrock manifold.
Put some good gas in it, time it, and test it.
30* is killing it off the line.
Not meaning to beat on you, but this is exactly why I mentioned dynoing the engine months ago. All this would have been handled and you would have ultimately saved a ton of time and money in the long run, and especially your sanity!
I hope you do hit your goal.
Posted By: RAMM
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 02:12 AM
Quote:
Put some good gas in it, time it, and test it.
30* is killing it off the line.
Not meaning to beat on you, but this is exactly why I mentioned dynoing the engine months ago. All this would have been handled and you would have ultimately saved a ton of time and money in the long run, and especially your sanity!
J.Rob
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 02:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Put some good gas in it, time it, and test it.
30* is killing it off the line.
Not meaning to beat on you, but this is exactly why I mentioned dynoing the engine months ago. All this would have been handled and you would have ultimately saved a ton of time and money in the long run, and especially your sanity!
J.Rob
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 02:54 AM
Hey Todd, what is this DYNO thing you speak of?
Posted By: mshred
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 04:54 AM
This is a pump gas motor that is staying pump gas...period...No splash of race gas...period
Timing too low? Maybe...Could my plugs have had detonation from something earlier on possibly and just didn't clean up since they were used? sure...Will one pass at 30 degrees of timing be a waste? I dont consider it a waste if I know my motor is safe and then go from there. For some reason though it sounds like a stupid move to some, but I really dont care...I'll do what im comfortable with
Looking back I would definitely put the engine on a dyno- live and learn..But the motor isn't coming out of the car, its just not an option I had or have right now at the moment...Next time I build a motor it will definitely get on a dyno, if for nothing, just to get the converter right or closer the first time around.
I sure as hell hope I don't have an ignition issue...Mallory hyfire 6 box, MSD blaster 2 coil, locked out lean burn distributor, MSD wires, NGK plugs, and good ground for everything...But I guess that might be somewhere else to look afterwards if its still a problem.
I appreciate the insight and advice, but I have to make my own decisions too based on what I want to do and try...call me a chicken, but i'd rather be that then building another motor over the winter.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 06:50 AM
Quote:
This is a pump gas motor that is staying pump gas...period...No splash of race gas...period
Timing too low? Maybe...Could my plugs have had detonation from something earlier on possibly and just didn't clean up since they were used? sure...Will one pass at 30 degrees of timing be a waste? I dont consider it a waste if I know my motor is safe and then go from there. For some reason though it sounds like a stupid move to some, but I really dont care...I'll do what im comfortable with
Looking back I would definitely put the engine on a dyno- live and learn..But the motor isn't coming out of the car, its just not an option I had or have right now at the moment...Next time I build a motor it will definitely get on a dyno, if for nothing, just to get the converter right or closer the first time around.
I sure as hell hope I don't have an ignition issue...Mallory hyfire 6 box, MSD blaster 2 coil, locked out lean burn distributor, MSD wires, NGK plugs, and good ground for everything...But I guess that might be somewhere else to look afterwards if its still a problem.
I appreciate the insight and advice, but I have to make my own decisions too based on what I want to do and try...call me a chicken, but i'd rather be that then building another motor over the winter.
I have found out (the hard way sometimes) what works for one guy may not work for another racer in a different part of the country 
A good freind of mine had done extensive dyno testing(multiple carb and intake combination that would fit six different NHRA stock classes in the same body) and tuning on his NHRA SB Stocker motor, it liked 40 degrees total timing on the dyno in the winter 
He put the motor in the car and went to a points race, the car went way to fast on the first qualifier for the class so he retarded the timing to 36 degrees slow it down, it picked up over a tenth ET in the 1/4 mile on the next run when it was hotter(he was in Sacremento,CA in the late spring, hot and humid) than the first run. He got hit with power anyways and ended up getting beat in the first round, bad weekend for him 
He later took the car to our local track and found out the car was quicker with less timing that had made the most power and torque on the dyno Hence the old adage, we don't race dynos Stay safe and learn safe
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 07:40 AM
My 408 kept getting faster (mph) last time out as i kept increasing timing.
I was at 38 for the last run.
Gonna try more next time.
Im on e85.
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 07:42 AM
Btw to get 10.5 comp ratio in a 408 and rhs heads you either must have dished pistons or much bigger chambers than stock?
Posted By: LSP
Re: Another update on my 408- advance cam next? - 09/10/13 12:31 PM
mshred, at what rpm were the HP and TQ peaks when you were on the chassis dyno?