Moparts

383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues

Posted By: kloyiod

383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 12:11 AM

This is a rebuilt motor, the builder had it set up at 4* retarded, cam is ground 3* advanced so that really shouldn't be a issue here. It wouldn't fire right away so I looked things over and found nothing wrong. Bumped a little more timing and tried again and it wanted to fire but instead got a big backfire through the carb, this happened again after giving even more timing. Dist. is installed correctly and firing orders correct ccw also. Thinking that something might be screwed up with the T-gear & chain, I tore into the motor. It's lined up at mentioned above and looking at the Dist drive gear at TDC it isn't parallel with the crank, It's either one side or the other of paralel. No matter what tooth I use it wouldn't go parallel. What gives here, what am I overlooking? I'm at a loss here, any ideas? Thanks
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 12:27 AM

sounds like the distributor was installed 180 degrees off.
Posted By: CR8CRSHR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 12:36 AM

Nope that isn't the issue. Already was done...
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 01:01 AM

The the balancer at 30* before on the compression
stroke where is the rotor pointed... but being that
you are talking lining up the dots, do you really
know where the cam is in at... I've seen plenty of
the dots be off... also is this a hyd cam.. is the
preload too tight and you have valves open some
EDIT
you might be using a advance type dist so if so set
the balancer to 16*
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 01:17 AM

Quote:

The the balancer at 30* before on the compression
stroke where is the rotor pointed... but being that
you are talking lining up the dots, do you really
know where the cam is in at... I've seen plenty of
the dots be off... also is this a hyd cam.. is the
preload too tight and you have valves open some
EDIT
you might be using a advance type dist so if so set
the balancer to 16*



Can't tell ya where it's at at 30* BTDC, but with it at about 10* BTDC Dist gear is parallel and rotor is at the 4-5 O'clock position.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 01:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The the balancer at 30* before on the compression
stroke where is the rotor pointed... but being that
you are talking lining up the dots, do you really
know where the cam is in at... I've seen plenty of
the dots be off... also is this a hyd cam.. is the
preload too tight and you have valves open some
EDIT
you might be using a advance type dist so if so set
the balancer to 16*



Can't tell ya where it's at at 30* BTDC, but with it at about 10* BTDC Dist gear is parallel and rotor is at the 4-5 O'clock position.



So with it at 10* is it pointed at #1 terminal
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 01:24 AM

Close enough to dial it in with a twist of the dist.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 01:28 AM

Is it a hyd cam... is the preload to tight
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/28/13 01:30 AM

Yes and No. About 2/5 of a turn from 0 on lash.
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 05:06 PM

Geeez, thanks for the help!
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 05:23 PM

There are three possibilities

Carb is junk

Timing is wrong

Cam is way off

Thats it. If the carb is good and a pro built the engine you most likely have a timing issue. Why are you trying to get the drive gear so that the slot is parallel at TDC #1, shouldn't it be perpendicular? Did you VERIFY that its no 180 out (have to ask because people are always CERTAIN that they didn't install it 180 out). Did you check TDC or are you assuming the balancer is correct?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 05:30 PM

Quote:

Geeez, thanks for the help!



I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 07:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Geeez, thanks for the help!



I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying





I dont think so I think it was just his way of bumping the thread and asking for more help
Posted By: tobnHisglory

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 07:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Geeez, thanks for the help!



I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying




I'm assuming the was that no one responded after you that night.

I had a built 440 do this to me several years ago. Stupid rookie mistake that I KNEW I had done right. I didn't bother lining up the dots because I wanted it right, so I degreed in the cam with a degree wheel and dial indicator gage on the lifter. Problem is I degreed it off the first lobe... intake is the second lobe so I was way off.

Believe it or not I even got it to run this way but it took hours of playing with the distributor to get it to fire. It ran but didn't want to rev, was waaaaaaaaaaay off on power and coated the exhaust in black soot. 3 carbs and 2 distributors later I tore into it to figure out what was wrong. Re timed the cam off the proper lobe and it fired like a boss.

Good luck!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 08:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Geeez, thanks for the help!



I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying




I'm assuming the was that no one responded after you that night.

I had a built 440 do this to me several years ago. Stupid rookie mistake that I KNEW I had done right. I didn't bother lining up the dots because I wanted it right, so I degreed in the cam with a degree wheel and dial indicator gage on the lifter. Problem is I degreed it off the first lobe... intake is the second lobe so I was way off.

Believe it or not I even got it to run this way but it took hours of playing with the distributor to get it to fire. It ran but didn't want to rev, was waaaaaaaaaaay off on power and coated the exhaust in black soot. 3 carbs and 2 distributors later I tore into it to figure out what was wrong. Re timed the cam off the proper lobe and it fired like a boss.

Good luck!



Yeah I was helping a friend dial in his cam.. I brought
over my wheel and gauges and he was doing it.. when
he got done(at least he said he was all set).. I asked
him why did you set it off the exhaust lobe... then
he looked at where the dial indicator was at...he
laughed and said... glad you were here
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 08:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Geeez, thanks for the help!



I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying





I dont think so I think it was just his way of bumping the thread and asking for more help


Exactly.
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 08:42 PM

Just a little update on this. The other motor that was in there was built for failure, it had a bad knock that I couldn't figure out from the get go. It fired right up and I broke it in, It had about 10 hrs. of runtime total on it before I said screw it trying to figure out the knock and get another motor. I bought a short block to swap out the bad one and used the cam, lifters, timing chain and all other needed parts from the first motor. The cam is degreed in and basically put back together the way the bad motor was. The only issue is that the dist gear is either pointing to the 2-8 O'clock or 4-10, not 9-3 like the FSM says it should be and it leaves me with a major head scratcher. I'm not real wooried about cranking this motor as the cam is already broken in. I am leaning on looking deeper into the dist and figuring out which would be the better of the 2 positions to get the rotor pointing the closest to #1 tower and go from there. I hope this makes sense? Discuss, thanks.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 09:20 PM

Quote:

Just a little update on this. The other motor that was in there was built for failure, it had a bad knock that I couldn't figure out from the get go. It fired right up and I broke it in, It had about 10 hrs. of runtime total on it before I said screw it trying to figure out the knock and get another motor. I bought a short block to swap out the bad one and used the cam, lifters, timing chain and all other needed parts from the first motor. The cam is degreed in and basically put back together the way the bad motor was. The only issue is that the dist gear is either pointing to the 2-8 O'clock or 4-10, not 9-3 like the FSM says it should be and it leaves me with a major head scratcher. I'm not real wooried about cranking this motor as the cam is already broken in. I am leaning on looking deeper into the dist and figuring out which would be the better of the 2 positions to get the rotor pointing the closest to #1 tower and go from there. I hope this makes sense? Discuss, thanks.



It really doesnt matter where the rotor is pointing
as long as its on #1 on its firing stroke.. just
move the wires around if need be... if its close then
turn the dist so it is... you can turn the intermediate
shaft all way around and wire the cap right and it'll fire
Posted By: tobnHisglory

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 09:26 PM

hmmm... just to go back to basics...

A distributor drive gear has 18 teeth, so moving one tooth at a time should rotate the distributor slot 20*. It doesn't make sense to me why you can only get it to line up at 8/2 or 4/10. Those are 90* apart, not 20. Maybe it is only sliding down in place where the oil pump shaft slots line up If so, wiggle it a little and add more pressure to turn the oil pump as it slides in place.

Going back to your original post you said it back fired through the carb, so you added more timing and it backfired again. Backfiring through the carb means the timing is advanced too far, igniting the fuel mixture while the intake valve is still open. Advancing it further will only worsen the problem. It sounds like you need to take out a lot of timing.

You should be able to put the gear anywhere you want, every 20*. Lining it up 9/3 like the service manual suggests is about having the distributor turned so the vacuum pod and wire harness clear the head and valve cover with adequate room to rotate and dial in the timing. As long as the rotor is pointing to the #1 tower a few (8-16*) BTDC then it should be able to fire.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 09:41 PM

Quote:

The only issue is that the dist gear is either pointing to the 2-8 O'clock or 4-10, not 9-3 like the FSM says it should be and it leaves me with a major head scratcher.



As said , it's not a head scratcher , it doesn't really matter as long as the rotor in the distributor points to the #1 plug when it is supposed to it's going to run.



Quote:

I'm not real wooried about cranking this motor as the cam is already broken in.



Well you should be unless both blocks had bushed lifter bores done on the same machine, by the same operator. you need to do the break in procedure all over again on an unbushed block because the geometry between the 2 will not be the same .

Quote:

I am leaning on looking deeper into the dist and figuring out which would be the better of the 2 positions to get the rotor pointing the closest to #1 tower and go from there. I hope this makes sense? Discuss, thanks.



Is you distributor WELDED to the block ? If not pick a position for the drive , drop in the distributor , pick #1 on the cap and put the wires in the correct order and rotation ... it will start , the engine doesn't care what the FSM written 40 years ago says ...
Posted By: kloyiod

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 09:43 PM

To both of you I fully agree. I know the vac pod should be in the 12-2 o'clock position which is were I started. When I get this back together I will look into making absolute sure that the rotor is pointing to the #1 tower. I just hope I get it this time ! It does make sense that you could stuff the drive gear anyway you want as long as all the others are in order. I'll keep ya updated as to what happens. All are welcome to continue this discussion in the meantime. Mr. P body, tell Sherman I say hi, LOL.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 09:53 PM

Quote:

To both of you I fully agree. I know the vac pod should be in the 12-2 o'clock position which is were I started. When I get this back together I will look into making absolute sure that the rotor is pointing to the #1 tower. I just hope I get it this time ! It does make sense that you could stuff the drive gear anyway you want as long as all the others are in order. I'll keep ya updated as to what happens. All are welcome to continue this discussion in the meantime. Mr. P body, tell Sherman I say hi, LOL.



I will.... just happens that my driver goes by Sherman
on here(well not really but his avitar is a pic
of Sherman and Mr Peabody)...LOL.. good luck with
your issue
Posted By: CR8CRSHR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 10:28 PM

Time for me to jump in here. I have been helping out a lot with this build so I can offer some more into the discussion. The lifter busing point is understood but I don't think there will be an issue with the fire up of this motor over the first. As stated earlier, the first motor has approximately 10 hours of run time. And, it is running a Hughes Cam and Lifters as opposed to the other makes available. Once they are broken in Hughes has told me that on a swap such as this, there isn't an issue with firing it up in a normal fashion. It was recommended though to at least keep it at about 2200 on the rpms and to bump the accelerator a few times to insure lifter rotation. Break in oil is Brad Penn. It was merely a swap out of the necessary parts from motor #1 to motor #2 excluding the bottom end of motor #1.

Now where the problem seems to lie is that in the first try, it backfired through the carb. We both checked and concurred that we had the motor it @ TDC but we were 180 out. So we adjusted for that and we had the same backfire through the carb. As stated above, the cam distributor gear drive upon inspection was not @ parallel to center line of the block as per the FSM and EBoogher's latest article in Mopar Action. BB's are parallel center and SB's are from 8-2 o'clock with the rotor pointing towards the first intake manifold bolt on the #1 piston side. Anyway...the key way for the distributor shaft will only point to either the 4-10 position or the 2-8 one. Not at parallel center as is correct for the BB. The timing sprockets are lined up dot to dot with the cam sprocket key way set @ 4R. Cam is ground @ 3A so there shouldn't be a really big deal there. Again dots are dot to dot. So the head scratching has been abundant here with this motor. On the old one everything lined up as it was supposed to but now in the motor we have the above described issue.

From what most of you have been saying, if I understand you all correctly, is that even though we are not @ parallel center on this BB, we are OK as long as we have the motor correctly @ TDC and the #1 plug wire tower and the rotor pointing correctly towards #1. We then should be OK in the theory of it. As long as everything is lined up correctly in relation to #1 and we are @ TDC then it really doesn't matter where the distributor gear is placed or if it is off of parallel center line. Is this a correct understanding? I have been kind of analyzing this on my own and have been wondering if this is all that needs to be done to get this back up and running. Again in theory it should work fine.

Hope this adds some more clarification to what we have been experiencing for you all to help us out. It is hard to explain in words without some visual referencing to help as well. This is not a fancy or hot rod build but rather a pretty tame one at that. Thanks in advance and I hope I was able to shed some more light on this issue. There is a ton of knowledge here as we all know...
Posted By: CR8CRSHR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/29/13 11:58 PM

Quote:

hmmm... just to go back to basics...

A distributor drive gear has 18 teeth, so moving one tooth at a time should rotate the distributor slot 20*. It doesn't make sense to me why you can only get it to line up at 8/2 or 4/10. Those are 90* apart, not 20.



Right you are. It should read as:

4-10 or 2-8 if you are looking straight down into the distributor opening. I can see where that would be confusing. Good catch.

Mr. PBody that is one heck of a "WAY BACK MACHINE" ya got there
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/30/13 12:35 AM

Quote:

Time for me to jump in here. I have been helping out a lot with this build so I can offer some more into the discussion. The lifter busing point is understood but I don't think there will be an issue with the fire up of this motor over the first. As stated earlier, the first motor has approximately 10 hours of run time. And, it is running a Hughes Cam and Lifters as opposed to the other makes available. Once they are broken in Hughes has told me that on a swap such as this, there isn't an issue with firing it up in a normal fashion. It was recommended though to at least keep it at about 2200 on the rpms and to bump the accelerator a few times to insure lifter rotation. Break in oil is Brad Penn. It was merely a swap out of the necessary parts from motor #1 to motor #2 excluding the bottom end of motor #1.

Now where the problem seems to lie is that in the first try, it backfired through the carb. We both checked and concurred that we had the motor it @ TDC but we were 180 out. So we adjusted for that and we had the same backfire through the carb. As stated above, the cam distributor gear drive upon inspection was not @ parallel to center line of the block as per the FSM and EBoogher's latest article in Mopar Action. BB's are parallel center and SB's are from 8-2 o'clock with the rotor pointing towards the first intake manifold bolt on the #1 piston side. Anyway...the key way for the distributor shaft will only point to either the 4-10 position or the 2-8 one. Not at parallel center as is correct for the BB. The timing sprockets are lined up dot to dot with the cam sprocket key way set @ 4R. Cam is ground @ 3A so there shouldn't be a really big deal there. Again dots are dot to dot. So the head scratching has been abundant here with this motor. On the old one everything lined up as it was supposed to but now in the motor we have the above described issue.

From what most of you have been saying, if I understand you all correctly, is that even though we are not @ parallel center on this BB, we are OK as long as we have the motor correctly @ TDC and the #1 plug wire tower and the rotor pointing correctly towards #1. We then should be OK in the theory of it. As long as everything is lined up correctly in relation to #1 and we are @ TDC then it really doesn't matter where the distributor gear is placed or if it is off of parallel center line. Is this a correct understanding? I have been kind of analyzing this on my own and have been wondering if this is all that needs to be done to get this back up and running. Again in theory it should work fine.

Hope this adds some more clarification to what we have been experiencing for you all to help us out. It is hard to explain in words without some visual referencing to help as well. This is not a fancy or hot rod build but rather a pretty tame one at that. Thanks in advance and I hope I was able to shed some more light on this issue. There is a ton of knowledge here as we all know...



As of now you are HOPING that the timing gears are
correct... sounds like they are not... the dot to dot
isnt a good way to install a cam... I've seem way too
many be off... I had one that was 27* off based on the
dots... I was thinking you guys degreed it but now
I know you played the dots.... I will go back to my
first idea (based on your info AND that your dist
doesnt line up like stock)... I think your cam is off
Posted By: CR8CRSHR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/30/13 01:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Time for me to jump in here. I have been helping out a lot with this build so I can offer some more into the discussion. The lifter busing point is understood but I don't think there will be an issue with the fire up of this motor over the first. As stated earlier, the first motor has approximately 10 hours of run time. And, it is running a Hughes Cam and Lifters as opposed to the other makes available. Once they are broken in Hughes has told me that on a swap such as this, there isn't an issue with firing it up in a normal fashion. It was recommended though to at least keep it at about 2200 on the rpms and to bump the accelerator a few times to insure lifter rotation. Break in oil is Brad Penn. It was merely a swap out of the necessary parts from motor #1 to motor #2 excluding the bottom end of motor #1.

Now where the problem seems to lie is that in the first try, it backfired through the carb. We both checked and concurred that we had the motor it @ TDC but we were 180 out. So we adjusted for that and we had the same backfire through the carb. As stated above, the cam distributor gear drive upon inspection was not @ parallel to center line of the block as per the FSM and EBoogher's latest article in Mopar Action. BB's are parallel center and SB's are from 8-2 o'clock with the rotor pointing towards the first intake manifold bolt on the #1 piston side. Anyway...the key way for the distributor shaft will only point to either the 4-10 position or the 2-8 one. Not at parallel center as is correct for the BB. The timing sprockets are lined up dot to dot with the cam sprocket key way set @ 4R. Cam is ground @ 3A so there shouldn't be a really big deal there. Again dots are dot to dot. So the head scratching has been abundant here with this motor. On the old one everything lined up as it was supposed to but now in the motor we have the above described issue.

From what most of you have been saying, if I understand you all correctly, is that even though we are not @ parallel center on this BB, we are OK as long as we have the motor correctly @ TDC and the #1 plug wire tower and the rotor pointing correctly towards #1. We then should be OK in the theory of it. As long as everything is lined up correctly in relation to #1 and we are @ TDC then it really doesn't matter where the distributor gear is placed or if it is off of parallel center line. Is this a correct understanding? I have been kind of analyzing this on my own and have been wondering if this is all that needs to be done to get this back up and running. Again in theory it should work fine.

Hope this adds some more clarification to what we have been experiencing for you all to help us out. It is hard to explain in words without some visual referencing to help as well. This is not a fancy or hot rod build but rather a pretty tame one at that. Thanks in advance and I hope I was able to shed some more light on this issue. There is a ton of knowledge here as we all know...



As of now you are HOPING that the timing gears are
correct... sounds like they are not... the dot to dot
isnt a good way to install a cam... I've seem way too
many be off... I had one that was 27* off based on the
dots... I was thinking you guys degreed it but now
I know you played the dots.... I will go back to my
first idea (based on your info AND that your dist
doesnt line up like stock)... I think your cam is off




OK...Then how can the cam be off from one block to the next? Yes we did line it up on the 2nd motor dot to dot as it was degree'd on the first motor and all we are doing is moving components from one block to the next. So we matched "apples to apples" so to speak. I know logic is not really a player when it comes to MOPARS...MA defied all kinds of Logic...but we have really not changed any thing here. Just doesn't make any sense at all....
Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/30/13 04:31 AM

did you do a compression check? Maybe you bent a valve screwing around with swapping everything over. Obviously if it was all correct, it would fire and run. Plain and simple. Maybe even someone dropped something down the carb throat by accident. This post could be harped on for a bunch of pages, but untill you have checked it all, you won't know. Cracked cap arcing, bad coil, wires on backwards to the coil. Dont even know what distrib you have for a reluctor. It could be water in the fuel far as we know. Something went a rye in your swap. Maybe even your distrib drive gear spun or is spinning. Don't go by the tdc on the balancer , try a positive stop. YOU ARE MISSING A SIMPLE SOLUTION. And it's screwing up your world and all the help you are recieving is pointless untill you do the standard checks. If a ballast resistor is bad it can pop as well. check check check
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/30/13 04:41 PM

Quote:



From what most of you have been saying, if I understand you all correctly, is that even though we are not @ parallel center on this BB, we are OK as long as we have the motor correctly @ TDC and the #1 plug wire tower and the rotor pointing correctly towards #1. We then should be OK in the theory of it. As long as everything is lined up correctly in relation to #1 and we are @ TDC then it really doesn't matter where the distributor gear is placed or if it is off of parallel center line. Is this a correct understanding? I have been kind of analyzing this on my own and have been wondering if this is all that needs to be done to get this back up and running. Again in theory it should work fine.





Yes this is correct in your understanding .

I'll ask the dumb question , is it not dropping in parallel because you move it a tooth and the drive will not drop in so you go another tooth and it does drop in ? If this is the case it's because ofthe oil pump hex drive not lining up with the oil pump , if you have a priming rod you can move the oil pump a little so the drive drops in ...

The distributor not being in line with what the FSM says is not what is causing the engine to not start as long as the rotor is pointing at the number one tower and you have the wires in the correct order and firing rotation.

Have you checked for spark ? what ignition system ?
Posted By: Slingshot383

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 08/30/13 05:08 PM

There is one more thing to consider when you can't get the rotor bug to line up correctly with the engine at TDC #1, and that is rotor phasing. Cars with crank triggers have to be very careful in this respect.
Posted By: tobnHisglory

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 09/02/13 05:11 AM

Any progress so far? One other thought. Is this a multi key way timing set? If so, maybe the crank key is in a different slot on the crank gear. You would still be dot to dot but your crank would be in a different position causing you to be off by several degrees on your cam timing. Good luck!
Posted By: CR8CRSHR

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 09/02/13 05:06 PM

No progress as of yet. It is all back together but still will not fire up. It has air, fuel, and combustion/fire and everything is correct. Going to trouble shoot the electrical side today and try it one last time. If it doesn't work then it will be put up for sale and be done with. The money outlay is just too much so look for it on this and other for sale sites. Thanks to those that have tried to assist but I am afraid it is a done deal and time to get out of this money pit and on to other things. After all it is just a freakin' car and ain't nothin' but a thing...
Posted By: poppaj

Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues - 09/02/13 07:19 PM

Are you sure that you haven't adjusted valves and they were not pumped up yet then when you started cranking the motor they pumped up and now you have valves hanging open?
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