Aftermarket RB blocks?

Well after talking to the builder and weighing the pros and cons we decided on the World products aluminum block. The KB was a fine piece. The KB can go to 667 Cubic inches, but requires an external oiling system (no provision for a sump) The cost was 5700.00 750.00 for the oil pump (which may have clearance problems with stock k-frames) plus shipping.They said horsepower in the range of 2000 was not out of the realm for this block! They were very friendly on the phone and informative. Turn around time was 12 weeks from order.

Now the reasons we went with the World. We have a certain budget for this build. We knew going forward that we had to upgrade the rockers (been using Pro-Comp rockers!) Have to have headers made, port the heads,Jesel belt drive, yada yada yada. The builder explained that the World Products is a quality piece, granted it can only grow to 630 ci's, but has a provision for an internal pickup. The World aluminum block came in at 4500 shipped. Twelve week turn around. The cost difference will help offset the cost of other components. Its gonna be a long time before we ever approach the power levels the KB block can withstand!

We are going with the raised cam position. Upping the compression from 13.5 to 15.0 to 1 Porting the heads Super Victor intake. Custom headers (something a little bigger then 1-7/8 LOL)

I'll come back and let you know how things go with the build Randy

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 02:36 AM

I don't know if you have been watching prices lately, but e NEW cast iron block can run you $2900-$3500 and an Indy Maxx aluminum block is $4300...Not so much of a stretch really. I lucked out and got a new block for $2700 delivered and no taxes.

That's a pretty raw aluminum block that still needs some machine work......really, the KB and Indy Maxx are the same price when they are ready to run. KB just considers a block to be assembly ready.

Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 04:54 AM

I'm planning on going aluminum 540 in november. I made a post on another site about an Indy Maxx block and got whipped up on, so to speak. I was going to let Josh Handle it. But thought about it today until I decided I may just order the block and rotating assembly and do it myself. Then after this post, I was thinking of maybe contacting performance only and seeing if he could do my B1 short block and maybe even the full assembly. I have been quite busy all over the Northern continent and hadn't had much time. I plan on a 4.5 bore 4.25 stroke in an r block with rb mains so far.And use one of the sets of my B1 originals I have. I had even considered a KB block. If I can get my dart down to 2350 lbs and around 950 hp, I feel I would have a strong solid combo. I may keep my 511 B1 steel block engine as a spare, or put it in something else.

Posted By: MAVERICKSHEMI

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 05:59 AM

Quote:

KB if you have the time to spare & $$

Indy Max would be my second choice, just purchase it thru one of their dealers.

In my dealings with World Products, I will effectively say, they match Indy for horrible customer service and $hitty attitude...And I will NEVER buy anything again with their logo on it, keep it I don't need the issues or the attitude that comes with it!

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 06:11 PM

Quote:

Seriously Cab how many people on here care enough to find every last .0001 in their combinations. Heck the average guy cries about changing converters or buying good shocks. You think they really want, care or need that last 15 hp??

Yep compacted graphite actually. Nothing else under $10K available. Also not your average bracket deal, 10,200 RPM scares most folks away for sure. HOWEVER trust me when I win the lottery those heads will have a CN block underneath them for sure. Oh yeah that motor weighs in at 884lbs as well

I stand by what I said. 99.9% of the racers out there will not see enough HP from an iron block to overcome the additional weight they carry.

Let me qualify my reasonings on block choices, for all out power on a N/A motor would be compact graphite iron first, cast grey iron second and billet aluminum block third with cast aluminum last. For a street or bracket motor it would be a stock cast grey iron unless soemone gave me a aluminum block for free or testing, any offers

All kidding aside as Al pointed out, when your not going for all out results, high HP and high RPM, above 7000 RPM then aluminum will seal fine for most appliction, above 7000 RPM you want the best ring seal you can get(vacume pump grounds) and most aluminum blocks will not seal as good as most good cast iron blocks will

One of the things that is taught in comercial flying is the expansion differences between aluminum, iron and steel, especially in motors. Aluminum expands 8 times more than steel and iron

Hence the need to set the valve lash tighter when cold on a motor with aluminum heads, even more on a all aluminum motor. So if you want 15.0 to 1 compression you better allow for the block and head growth when machining that kind of motor so you get what you want, allow for block growth up and out as well as the combustion chamber growth

Enough pot stirring stimulation from me today

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 06:11 PM

Quote:

I'm planning on going aluminum 540 in november. I made a post on another site about an Indy Maxx block and got whipped up on, so to speak. I was going to let Josh Handle it. But thought about it today until I decided I may just order the block and rotating assembly and do it myself. Then after this post, I was thinking of maybe contacting performance only and seeing if he could do my B1 short block and maybe even the full assembly. I have been quite busy all over the Northern continent and hadn't had much time. I plan on a 4.5 bore 4.25 stroke in an r block with rb mains so far.And use one of the sets of my B1 originals I have. I had even considered a KB block. If I can get my dart down to 2350 lbs and around 950 hp, I feel I would have a strong solid combo. I may keep my 511 B1 steel block engine as a spare, or put it in something else.

I had that exact combo in my dragster. It was a KB water low deck block, Callies 4.25 stroke, 4.505 bore, M/C heads, 16-1 compression, MGP rods, Jessel belt drive. I needed a lot looser converter, it only stalled at 5200 RPM, than I had but it went 7.65@174 in Utah at 8000ft. corrected. I needed more torque so I went back to a 572. I have a lot of the stuff for sale. I sent you a PM.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 06:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Seriously Cab how many people on here care enough to find every last .0001 in their combinations. Heck the average guy cries about changing converters or buying good shocks. You think they really want, care or need that last 15 hp??

Yep compacted graphite actually. Nothing else under $10K available. Also not your average bracket deal, 10,200 RPM scares most folks away for sure. HOWEVER trust me when I win the lottery those heads will have a CN block underneath them for sure. Oh yeah that motor weighs in at 884lbs as well

I stand by what I said. 99.9% of the racers out there will not see enough HP from an iron block to overcome the additional weight they carry.

Let me qualify my reasonings on block choices, for all out power on a N/A motor would be compact graphite iron first, cast grey iron second and billet aluminum block third with cast aluminum last. For a street or bracket motor it would be a stock cast grey iron unless soemone gave me a aluminum block for free or testing, any offers All kidding aside as Al pointed out, when your not going for all out results, high HP and high RPM, above 7000 RPM then aluminum will seal fine for most appliction, above 7000 RPM you want the best ring seal you can get(vacume pump grounds) and most aluminum blocks will not seal as good as most good cast iron blocks will One of the things that is taught in comercial flying is the expansion differences between aluminum, iron and steel, especially in motors. Aluminum expands 8 times more than steel and iron Hence the need to set the valve lash tighter when cold on a motor with aluminum heads, even more on a all aluminum motor. So if you want 15.0 to 1 compression you better allow for the block and head growth when machining that kind of motor so you get what you want, allow for block growth up and out as well as the combustion chamber growth Enough pot stirring stimulation from me today

Ahhh, but your forgetting two things:

1-Not every shop that hones out a block for final bore size is the same. There is no such thing as a perfectly round cylinder in machining. You want tight tolerances, certain things have to be done to create the same distortion the block is under when fully assembled when it is honed. Not to mention the ability to even measure bore size down to the level needed. How many shops use XXX masters to set-up their bore gauges? Do you pre-heat the block before honing or do it cold? Do you laser etch grooves in at the directional change points of the rings in the sleeves? Call Guhring hone, and ask them about their Nascar treatment for cyclinder honing and let me know....

2-Aluminum blocks have cast iron dry sleeves now a days. Meaning, the .160" thick wall of the iron sleeve is backed up directly by lots of aluminum...So all that expansion does not purely move away from the piston, it actually adds pressure to the sleeve...The oppisite of what your thinking. How do I know this...Bored alum blocks all day long at GM...10,000 of them a week! When we put too much pressure into the blocks, the sleeves pop up above the deck. Its very critical operation with the preload on the sleeves, and all of it has to be done just right...Blocks ARE NOT machined or manufactured they way they were 20 years ago!

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 07:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Seriously Cab how many people on here care enough to find every last .0001 in their combinations. Heck the average guy cries about changing converters or buying good shocks. You think they really want, care or need that last 15 hp??

Yep compacted graphite actually. Nothing else under $10K available. Also not your average bracket deal, 10,200 RPM scares most folks away for sure. HOWEVER trust me when I win the lottery those heads will have a CN block underneath them for sure. Oh yeah that motor weighs in at 884lbs as well

I stand by what I said. 99.9% of the racers out there will not see enough HP from an iron block to overcome the additional weight they carry.

Let me qualify my reasonings on block choices, for all out power on a N/A motor would be compact graphite iron first, cast grey iron second and billet aluminum block third with cast aluminum last. For a street or bracket motor it would be a stock cast grey iron unless soemone gave me a aluminum block for free or testing, any offers All kidding aside as Al pointed out, when your not going for all out results, high HP and high RPM, above 7000 RPM then aluminum will seal fine for most appliction, above 7000 RPM you want the best ring seal you can get(vacume pump grounds) and most aluminum blocks will not seal as good as most good cast iron blocks will One of the things that is taught in comercial flying is the expansion differences between aluminum, iron and steel, especially in motors. Aluminum expands 8 times more than steel and iron Hence the need to set the valve lash tighter when cold on a motor with aluminum heads, even more on a all aluminum motor. So if you want 15.0 to 1 compression you better allow for the block and head growth when machining that kind of motor so you get what you want, allow for block growth up and out as well as the combustion chamber growth Enough pot stirring stimulation from me today

I'm not sure how you came up with aluminum expansion being 8 time that of cast iron. Here's a quick reference of linear expansion rates to refresh your memory.

Coefficient of linear expansion per degree C. per the "Pocket Ref"

Aluminum .0000231
Bronze .0000175
Stainless Steel (304) .0000173
Copper .0000168
Gold .0000142
Mild Steel .0000120
Cast Iron .0000106
Titanium .0000085
__________________
By the way, 90 degree v-8 blocks are a lot different design than airplane engines. apples and zucchini IMO.

I added some of those smiley thingies just to make you feel at ease.

Posted By: B1CUDA

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 08:45 PM

I just finished reading this post, and had to laugh. As most of you already know, I am the original owner of Al's motor, and I designed the entire motor (C.I., Head design, cam profile, etc.), and Pettis Performance did the hone/assembly/dyno. This motor was built around 2007-2008, and to the best of my knowledge, it is still the only 525" N/A motor, that made over 1050 HP, in the country. When it was built, there were tons of 540 & 572 inch motors being built, that didn't make as much power, and they had iron blocks. No, I am not beating on my chest, I am stating facts. At the time I built the motor, World blocks were not even thought of, and there was no way that I was going to use the junk Mopar Mega block. At the time I built this motor, the KB block was a no brainer, and with all of the iron blocks that are available now, I still would not hesitate to get another KB block, if I were to build another big block. I still kick myself for getting rid of that motor, as it was truly one of those "Perfect" motors, where everything just worked like a charm. Al seems to have made that ol junker work for him......

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 09:12 PM

Quote:

I just finished reading this post, and had to laugh. As most of you already know, I am the original owner of Al's motor, and I designed the entire motor (C.I., Head design, cam profile, etc.), and Pettis Performance did the hone/assembly/dyno. This motor was built around 2007-2008, and to the best of my knowledge, it is still the only 525" N/A motor, that made over 1050 HP, in the country. When it was built, there were tons of 540 & 572 inch motors being built, that didn't make as much power, and they had iron blocks. No, I am not beating on my chest, I am stating facts. At the time I built the motor, World blocks were not even thought of, and there was no way that I was going to use the junk Mopar Mega block. At the time I built this motor, the KB block was a no brainer, and with all of the iron blocks that are available now, I still would not hesitate to get another KB block, if I were to build another big block. I still kick myself for getting rid of that motor, as it was truly one of those "Perfect" motors, where everything just worked like a charm. Al seems to have made that ol junker work for him......

Chris I think that, your motor, was actually done around 2003 -2004 before we moved up here from Hesperia

I remember Jason assembling and then finally dyno testing it and being amased at the results

Lots of ways to stimulate discussions, huh

I think like you do now , I wished that you had ran that motor in your car more, OH WELL

BTW, Al loves it

Did it have a vacume pump on it from day one?

Posted By: dogdays

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/14/13 10:39 PM

All this talk of compacted graphite iron has me wondering.....
How many machine shops in the country are set up to bore and hone these blocks?
Also, who is actually building the blocks out of CGI?
And third, who can afford them?

R.

Posted By: B1CUDA

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/15/13 12:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I just finished reading this post, and had to laugh. As most of you already know, I am the original owner of Al's motor, and I designed the entire motor (C.I., Head design, cam profile, etc.), and Pettis Performance did the hone/assembly/dyno. This motor was built around 2007-2008, and to the best of my knowledge, it is still the only 525" N/A motor, that made over 1050 HP, in the country. When it was built, there were tons of 540 & 572 inch motors being built, that didn't make as much power, and they had iron blocks. No, I am not beating on my chest, I am stating facts. At the time I built the motor, World blocks were not even thought of, and there was no way that I was going to use the junk Mopar Mega block. At the time I built this motor, the KB block was a no brainer, and with all of the iron blocks that are available now, I still would not hesitate to get another KB block, if I were to build another big block. I still kick myself for getting rid of that motor, as it was truly one of those "Perfect" motors, where everything just worked like a charm. Al seems to have made that ol junker work for him......

Chris I think that, your motor, was actually done around 2003 -2004 before we moved up here from Hesperia I remember Jason assembling and then finally dyno testing it and being amased at the results Lots of ways to stimulate discussions, huh I think like you do now , I wished that you had ran that motor in your car more, OH WELL BTW, Al loves it Did it have a vacume pump on it from day one?

I wished I had more time to play with it too!

And the Pro Stock motor too!

(Time has always been my enemy, with a busy business, and young kids) Yes, the motor had a 4 vane Moroso on it, from day one, until I sold it to Al.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/15/13 03:16 AM

Thanks for letting me know

Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: Aftermarket RB blocks? - 08/15/13 03:30 AM

I responded. I was in Ogden 3 weeks ago at Great lake minerals. I would of came by and looked. I will get with you on details and save your pm