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400 vs 440 stroker.

Posted By: Spaceman Spiff

400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 01:47 AM

If you wanted to build a 500ish in stroker to make 600hp, and you had 84cc edelbrock heads, would you do a 400 or 440 based build, and why?
Going into a '58 Plymouth with a/c and a 3.73 geared rear.

Hydraulic flat tappet, or hydraulic roller and why?
Posted By: Dragula

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 02:07 AM

Quote:

If you wanted to build a 500ish in stroker to make 600hp, and you had 84cc edelbrock heads, would you do a 400 or 440 based build, and why?
Going into a '58 Plymouth with a/c and a 3.73 geared rear.

Hydraulic flat tappet, or hydraulic roller and why?



600hp on a 500 inch stroker is like detuning it...

We currently run a 512 RB with out of the box EZ heads, and is making 700hp on pump gas. We run a solid mechanical cam, 10.7:1 pistons, and a 950 Proform carb jetted up at least 2 all the way around. The block was treated to a girdle and a big oil pan, but not much else...Our cam is about .670" but you can detune it with a mild street cam. I normally don't care for Eddy heads, and about where they flow fully ported are about where these start out of the box.

Watch piston choice with the bigger 84cc heads.

Our next build is going to basically a copy of this engine with a 400 block and the same heads with a mild port job...Why, because the 400 will fit in the Duster better, has smaller main journels, and should be slightly lighter. We are going to put a Dominator on the next one as well.
Posted By: ahy

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 02:46 AM

It sounds like a fast street car/cruiser. The low deck 512 with ~6.535 rods works great as a drag engine but probably wants bigger heads. The low deck 496 with 6.76" rods uses a short piston... light, fast revving but maybe not the best durability. That's what I'm running with Ed heads.

Either could be good but I'd suggest the RB with 4.125" stroke for your setup. It uses a slightly taller piston and should work well with the Ed heads. With block machining and piston selection it is pretty easy to build a zero deck engine. Matched up with a common gasket in the .038-.040 range you get perfect quench. You will need a dish piston to get CR in the pump gas range (low 10's to 11 depending on cam).

I would and did go flat tappet. Adapting the RB for roller is expensive and a bit tricky I think. A solid flat tappet will give great performance. Break in, high zinc oil and maybe EDM drilled lifters make it reliable. Your stroker won't need to spin much past 6000 so springs don't need to be crazy stiff.

I worked with Mike at Muscle Motors to get my rotating assembly, cam and heads speced out and matched up.
Posted By: 67mprfan

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 02:48 AM

Quote:



Our next build is going to basically a copy of this engine with a 400 block and the same heads with a mild port job...Why, because the 400 will fit in the Duster better, has smaller main journels, and should be slightly lighter. We are going to put a Dominator on the next one as well.



wanting to do the same for my next build looking at the weight saving in a a-body

Attached picture 7809895-racephoto001.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 02:51 AM

A 400 block is much stronger... that would be the only
way I'd go unless you wanted way more CI
Posted By: Nitrojunkee

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 02:51 AM

Quote:


Adapting the RB for roller is expensive and a bit tricky I think.




Why?
Posted By: Dragula

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 03:18 AM

Myy engine builder keeps mentioning the piston speed and rod ratio are much better with the 400 based engine as well. Generally when they mention that, they are concerned with the strain the piston puts on the cylinder wall..
Posted By: AndyF

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 03:30 AM

I did that engine a few years ago. From the tech archives: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1007phr_big_block_mopar_engines/
Posted By: ProSport

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 03:32 AM

Quote:

We currently run a 512 RB with out of the box EZ heads, and is making 700hp on pump gas. We run a solid mechanical cam, 10.7:1 pistons, and a 950 Proform carb jetted up at least 2 all the way around. The block was treated to a girdle and a big oil pan, but not much else...Our cam is about .670" but you can detune it with a mild street cam. I normally don't care for Eddy heads, and about where they flow fully ported are about where these start out of the box.



Dragula, what car is this motor in? What ET is it running and at what weight?
Posted By: Dragula

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 03:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

We currently run a 512 RB with out of the box EZ heads, and is making 700hp on pump gas. We run a solid mechanical cam, 10.7:1 pistons, and a 950 Proform carb jetted up at least 2 all the way around. The block was treated to a girdle and a big oil pan, but not much else...Our cam is about .670" but you can detune it with a mild street cam. I normally don't care for Eddy heads, and about where they flow fully ported are about where these start out of the box.



Dragula, what car is this motor in? What ET is it running and at what weight?



We run that in the Duster...3150lbs with me in it ran 10.07 leaving at only 2100rpm shifting at only 6400...We are not running it as hard as we could.
Posted By: ProSport

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 03:55 AM

Ok, I am just wondering why you don't care for Edelbrocks, I used ported Eddy's on my pump gas 451 with the 590 cam and went 9.80's at 3050#'s. I love these heads and I'm dropping my 500" low deck into my Duster tomorrow with MW cnc ported Eddy's.
Posted By: Dragula

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 04:07 AM

Quote:

Ok, I am just wondering why you don't care for Edelbrocks, I used ported Eddy's on my pump gas 451 with the 590 cam and went 9.80's at 3050#'s. I love these heads and I'm dropping my 500" low deck into my Duster tomorrow with MW cnc ported Eddy's.



I just think that where the E-heads finish up is where the Indy heads tend to start...Ours are out of the box literally. Last time we tried a 3k launch, it killed all the tabs on the rear suspension. Bent everything. We have a much better rear set-up now, and might wick it up a bit this weekend we will see.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 07:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Adapting the RB for roller is expensive and a bit tricky I think.




Why?

That`s what I was thinking..........my Isky solid roller has been flawless for around 8 years and the lifters just drop in..........no bushed bores OR lightning/oil bands(solid body).
Posted By: Twostick

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/11/13 08:08 PM

You haven't stated purpose but if A/C is involved I'm assuming station wagon street stealth bomber .

My 440 based if for no other reason than I buy into the long rod theory as far as longevity is concerned ie for me a build like this is a failure if it won't go 200,000 miles minimum without pulling the heads.

My 440 based 493 is 0 deck 8.97:1 and did 500hp 600ft/lbs on 87 regular with OOTB RPM's and a MP509. Depending on what you are willing to live with as far as street manners are concerned, more cam and compression would get mine pretty close I think and a trip to the head porter would put it over the top but at the expense of longevity IMHO.

I'd buy enough cylinder head to hit your number with and build as big a short block as I needed to make it happen by 5500 and it should run strong forever.

Kevin
Posted By: Nitrojunkee

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/12/13 12:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Adapting the RB for roller is expensive and a bit tricky I think.




Why?

That`s what I was thinking..........my Isky solid roller has been flawless for around 8 years and the lifters just drop in..........no bushed bores OR lightning/oil bands(solid body).



Yep. I'm going with a solid roller custom blower grind from Bullet, and a set of Morel lifters. Not bushing the lifter bores, and I'm not worried about it. Of course, I won't be spinning this motor past 6300-6500 either... If that. I'm also going to spend a little coin on rockers, and lighter valve train parts.
Posted By: Nitrojunkee

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/12/13 12:13 AM

Quote:

You haven't stated purpose but if A/C is involved I'm assuming station wagon street stealth bomber .

My 440 based if for no other reason than I buy into the long rod theory as far as longevity is concerned ie for me a build like this is a failure if it won't go 200,000 miles minimum without pulling the heads.

My 440 based 493 is 0 deck 8.97:1 and did 500hp 600ft/lbs on 87 regular with OOTB RPM's and a MP509. Depending on what you are willing to live with as far as street manners are concerned, more cam and compression would get mine pretty close I think and a trip to the head porter would put it over the top but at the expense of longevity IMHO.

I'd buy enough cylinder head to hit your number with and build as big a short block as I needed to make it happen by 5500 and it should run strong forever.

Kevin



Couldn't agree more with this! More cubic inch with some good flowing heads, won't have to work as hard. Not that there is anything wrong with the low deck big inch builds, I've seen some killer ones! My 496" is a 440 base, 4.150" stroke, 2.200" journal, with 6.800" rod length. Still plenty of compression height on Diamond 8.98:1 dish blower pistons at zero deck. Didn't skimp on machine work either. I'm banking on it lasting me 8-10 years before it needs freshening up... We shall see.

I'd go 440, but I could be biased
Posted By: Wedgeman

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/12/13 02:03 AM

I would go with a 400 block.....Did you see the bob weight on these combo ?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/12/13 05:29 AM

Quote:

If you wanted to build a 500ish in stroker to make 600hp, and you had 84cc edelbrock heads, would you do a 400 or 440 based build, and why?
Going into a '58 Plymouth with a/c and a 3.73 geared rear.

Hydraulic flat tappet, or hydraulic roller and why?

400 block with a 4.300 sroker crank with either 6.700 or 6.600 long BB Chevy h beam rods, pistons made to match the compression ratio you want. Hydraulic roller for the longivity Shift that rascal around 6000 RPM and hope you can hook it
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/12/13 01:03 PM

I am in favor of a low deck for high rpm big head horsepower. But your deal is different, so either will work well. The RB block will allow you to go to 570 cubes if you can find a 4.75 stroke crank and 4.375 bore, or you can go 540 with a 4.5 stroke. You just can't beat big cubes when you are going to put a road gear in the car and it is HEAVY. The BIG motor will allow you to go with a 3.23 gear and have the same torque as a 500 with the 3.73 at the rear axles, and you can then tighten the converter some to make it lock up better, reducing the rpm even more. I built a 535 with 906 heads many years ago, and all I had was a stock high stall 340/Hemi 10 3/4 factory converter. It would stall 3700 rpm with a 590 cam in it! Too bad it only lasted six passes. So in your case, given you find blocks in either size that are in good shape, go big. If the best block you find (sonic check) is a low deck, then I would go with it. Ring seal is also important, and you don't want to split a cylinder by using a marginal block.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/16/13 03:26 PM

A question is how big is the engine compartment in the car this is going in ? If it's tight then use the 400 block , if not then I would use the RB , better intake choices and a taller piston which will be more stable in a street engine .

I'd also look at a stepping up to a roller cam if you are planning on going to a roller tip rocker setup for longevity and less with the oil and flat tappet issues ... assuming the budget allows.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/16/13 09:25 PM

All of the 400 blocks have a lot better main web in them than any of the 440 do That is the main reason I like to start with 400 block for a stroker motor if I have to use a stock block The after market blocks are a lot better, if you can afford to use them
Posted By: 451Guy

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/16/13 11:57 PM

I have had 4 stroked 400 combos so you know what my answer is. The 451 in my 3100lb Demon went 10.07 with max wedge ported Indy SR's. My 69 Charger went 12.07 with a Eddy Rpm Headed 451. Demon went 9.56 with a 400 based 512 with the same Indy heads and same cam. I was lucky and found a 230 casting number block for the Demon. I put a 512 in the Charger and it went 11.39 with ported Edelbrocks Heads and a garbage converter. 1.72 60' Time!!!! All of these passes are at a track with 2200 feet actual elevation. The best corrected altitude was around 3300 - 3400 feet.

As you can see I am a fan of the 400 Stroker!
Posted By: 383man

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/17/13 02:11 AM

I agree the 400 has the best main webs but I think up to about 600 hp the 440 will work fine. I am using a 440 block in my 493. I went with the 440 block because I may go to the crossram one day as the crossrams are made to fit the 440 block. But mine has been holding up great for the two years its been in my 63. I race it sometimes and drive it all the time. I figure its making close to 600 hp at the flywheel and about 525 at the wheels to run 10.70's so far at 3700 lbs. Ron
Posted By: fishy340

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/17/13 05:58 AM

600hp w a 440 block is a time bomb.I saw 2 diff ones blow in one year...they did beat on em,but who doesn't.400 block is the real deal.JMO
Posted By: 383man

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/18/13 01:20 AM

Quote:

600hp w a 440 block is a time bomb.I saw 2 diff ones blow in one year...they did beat on em,but who doesn't.400 block is the real deal.JMO



I know alot of guys running 440 strokers that have held up fine. Most are street cars and probably make 500 to 600 hp. I have beat on mine pretty good for over 2 years. I agree over 600 hp on a stock 440 block can be pusing your luck but all the ones I have been involved in with 600 or less hp are holding up fine. Ron
Posted By: fishy340

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/18/13 01:59 AM

The 2 that i saw blow up,did it right along the pan rail.The other one split almost right down the center.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: 400 vs 440 stroker. - 08/18/13 05:51 PM

Partial fill, studs, and a girdle..... I would think that a 440 block set up like this should be fine up to 600.

I run a studded 230 casting 400 block. I'm only making around 510 hp though. I figure if I ever rebuild the top end to make more beans, I have a block I can work safely with.
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