DNF'd at the Silver State Classic NOW WITH VIDEO!

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Made it about 34 miles in the Silver state when "BRAP BRAP BRAP BRAP...." happened at 4700 rpm doing about 137.

It sounded like I pospped a spark plug, but it was too loudm it was still firing. It later guessed a broken valve spring on an intake, allowing the valve to drop, hit the piston and get jammed up in the guide, allowing the combustion to backfire through the manifold. Wrong. It is time to retire the Crane Golds. The adjuster was there and set correctly, but was loose.

I run about .640 lift and 400 - 430# open spring pressure on these 1.6's

Sorry about your troubles.

1.5s will last much longer, be much more stable and oil better, less chance of burning up the adjuster. Don't blame the rockers. Blame the adjusters and the ratio,imo.

Nascar is running 2.2 ratio rockers at over 9k rpm. Has nothing to do with rocker ratio and everything to do with cam lobe, proper setup and quality parts. Crane golds are not very good rockers in my opinion, and that's why I think it's a good idea to save up for T&D or Jesel rockers. Again, just my opinion.

NASCAR is is not running edlebrock heads. My

That's not my point. My point is, good rockers and good cam profiles with proper setup will work just fine with high ratio rockers.

Talk to edlebrock and ask them about running 1.6 rockers on there heads.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/21/13 10:45 PM

There are lots things that could cause that but without more info its hard to say for sure.
Are they Edelbrock heads? If so new or used
Crane shafts have a right and a wrong way for install for proper oiling. Harlan Sharp can go on either way.
Like asked above were the shafts banana grooved?
If so were they done right. Some guys make the grooves to long and the oil sneaks out past the rocker.
Did you limit the oil going to the head. Some guys do.
Were the rockers shimmed right side to side?
Were the rockers checked for proper sweep on the valve tip.
How many runs did the rockers have on them?

I personally never use those springs as they do not limit rocker placement properly. I usually take 3-4 hours setting up rockers the right way.

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 12:42 AM

Your answers, in order:

Are they Edelbrock heads? -Yes, RPM's
If so new or used? -I purchased them new, 6 years on them now.
Crane shafts have a right and a wrong way for install for proper oiling. Harlan Sharp can go on either way. -Definitely on on the correct orientation
Like asked above were the shafts banana grooved? -No
If so were they done right. Some guys make the grooves to long and the oil sneaks out past the rocker. -Again, not grooved
Did you limit the oil going to the head. Some guys do. -No
Were the rockers shimmed right side to side? - springs between them with steel rings for wear protection
Were the rockers checked for proper sweep on the valve tip. -perfectly across the center
How many runs did the rockers have on them? -a few hundred and 1500 miles of standard driving and road racing

I personally never use those springs as they do not limit rocker placement properly. I usually take 3-4 hours setting up rockers the right way.

Posted By: quickd100

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:14 AM

Sorry to hear about your mechanical trouble. On another subject, did you see Joel Hanning running his 62' Polara there? Dave

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:19 AM

Sorry to see your troubles Dan

I'll be looking forward to viewing the other rockers and shafts. Going to take a wild guess, with that low mileage on them, some sort of oiling issue

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:19 AM

I google search on Crane rockers and there instructions said the big block rockers came with springs and their small block rockers used the aluminum spacers. Not sure way but maybe to stabilize at higher rpm's. Hard to tell if yours are big block or small block from that picture but here are their small block instructions.

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/instructions/198e_.pdf

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:22 AM

Big block instructions.

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/instructions/209e_.pdf

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:25 AM

Oh, and I agree with pittspukeracer

on using spacers instead of springs between the rockers

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:47 AM

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Oh, and I agree with pittspukeracer on using spacers instead of springs between the rockers

Pittspukeracer.???????????????????

Posted By: dOc !

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 01:57 AM

DATS even bester than BURGHer guy ....

Posted By: AndyF

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 02:19 AM

Too bad RAS isn't making their investment cast steel rocker arms anymore. Those are the ones you need for an open course setup like that. The aluminum rocker arms are okay for drag racing, but your application I'd use a steel rocker arm with a bronze bushing. You might want to add some valve spring oilers also. An engine like that needs to be built like a boat motor, or a circle track setup.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 03:21 AM

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DATS even bester than BURGHer guy ....

You guys are hurting my feeling.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 06:00 PM

Those stainless PRW bushed rockers look like they might work in an endurance app.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 06:10 PM

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Those stainless PRW bushed rockers look like they might work in an endurance app.

Yeah, I'm gonna choose a Chinese knock off of a Comp SS rocker to go racing.... NOT!!!!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 06:14 PM

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Those stainless PRW bushed rockers look like they might work in an endurance app.

Yeah, I'm gonna choose a Chinese knock off of a Comp SS rocker to go racing.... NOT!!!!

x 1000

Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 06:16 PM

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Talk to edlebrock and ask them about running 1.6 rockers on there heads.

First off, I've run 1.6 rockers on edelbrock heads, second, it doesn't change the point I'm trying to make; GOOD quality rocker arms, set up correctly, with a lobe profile that isn't crazy, will last just fine with higher rocker ratios. If the rocker is designed correctly then, at most, all you'll need to do, and this is a maybe, is massage the pushrod hole for clearance. Now I appreciate your point of view, but you have yet to make a point with any real evidence supporting it that isn't coming from some other source, so while I applaud your efforts, just because you're certain something is true, does not make it so. If I hadn't run into problems like this before I would be keeping my big trap shut, but I have, so I'm not.

I have a set of those PRW rockers in a 1.6 ratio. Adjusters are junk so if you seriously want a set, factor in the price of some good adjusters.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 07:17 PM

So $1000 rockers are the only option? Yeah that's awesome.....where do I sign up?

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 07:23 PM

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So $1000 rockers are the only option? Yeah that's awesome.....where do I sign up?

If your paying 1000 dollars for Harlan Sharps I have several sets for Edelbrock heads I'll sale.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 08:04 PM

JMO... but I had a HIGH reving BB years ago... the springs
on the shaft will never control the side movement...
the adjuster is off center so the push rod is pushing
on a angle moving the rocker over... if that action is
fast enough it will develop a larger lash... if the
PR pops off of the adjuster it tends to drop in close
to the shaft... all you need is a single gouge in
the rocker to create the stress area and break(since
the PR is still working the rocker BUT at a MUCH higher
rocker rate)... the alum spacers control the side
loading(a hard shim they sell on both sides of the
spacer will reduce wear)
The burnt oil is a AFTER FACT... the PR dented the rocker
and increased the friction on the shaft.... if the other
rockers dont have the burnt oil look you would know
its a after fact

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 08:24 PM

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So $1000 rockers are the only option? Yeah that's awesome.....where do I sign up?

All depends on the application , first off there are many GOOD rockers that aren't cheap chinese junk that are under $1000 dollars.

In the application that the OP is running , high RPM for an extended period of time, a cheap chinese junk rocker is not an option unless he wants something similar to this ... or worse because the CCJ rockers usually cause a valve to drop .... happening ...

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 09:04 PM

Im running the Crane Golds myself with a hydraulic cam. Im gonna be in the market for something reliable with a .600 ish lift solid roller for the same type of conditions. I can definitely see where a solid spacer would be necessary when spring loads get up there as well as rpm. So Harland Sharps= $700 or Comp Ultra Pro Magnums= $700 are basically what you guys would trust in these conditions?

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 09:17 PM

I had a used set of Harlan Sharp rockers on my 440-1 heads with a 690 lift cam and I wouldn't want to know how many runs I have on them. And like I said they were used when I bought my first set of Indy heads. On our small blocks I run 1.6's and my son runs 1.5's with zero issues other than the fact for some reason we had to shim Matt's up a hair to get a nicer sweep pattern. Give Todd at Competition Wedge a call and he will fix you up. I do recommend aluminum spacers and the aluminum hold-downs are really nice.

Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 09:29 PM

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Im running the Crane Golds myself with a hydraulic cam. Im gonna be in the market for something reliable with a .600 ish lift solid roller for the same type of conditions. I can definitely see where a solid spacer would be necessary when spring loads get up there as well as rpm. So Harland Sharps= $700 or Comp Ultra Pro Magnums= $700 are basically what you guys would trust in these conditions?

I have no experience with either of these rockers on a mopar, and only Comp Pro Magnums, which seized on the shaft so I'm biased towards T&D because when I've had the opportunity to use them, they're relatively painless and I never had to worry about burned PR's or anything like I did with so many of the others. I like to offer advice that will give the best results in my experience even if it initially costs more.

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 09:30 PM

It is a bit of a mystery still... There are no indications on the rocker that the pushrod jammed into the body and dented it. It is possible, however, that the adjuster had loosened some and increased the lash, causing a hammering effect that induced metal to metal contact resulting in heat and ultimately metal failure in the form of stretching and fracturing. It appears to have stretched and torn at the pushrod squirter hole from the edge inward, distorting the bore, causing more heat, then ultimately did a full fracture at the highestload point at the inward side of the bottom of the shaft bore. ...maybe the fracture happened before the tear, would makle more sense. I still am inclined to think loose adjuster was the root.

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Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 10:14 PM

The first thing I noticed when you started this post and looking at the picture was the lack of threads from the adjuster out past the rocker. That is why I went to there instructions to see what the recommended. There was no info on that so it may not be an issue. T&D and some others want 2-3 threads beyond the body to help direct the oil to the push-rod cup to assist cooling. In a drag racing app it may not be as much of an issue. One reason I asked about how old the heads were is because Edelbock heads have a few issues. Tight guides and one of our members noticed that the oiling hole in the head bolt is not drill properly. the hole is drilled but it stops as soon as the bit breaks thru. When I checked a brand new set I had sitting here the hole was opened about 50%. Must be drilled on a CNC and being the hole is angled it should be set to drill about an 1/8 inch deeper.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 10:49 PM

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It is a bit of a mystery still... There are no indications on the rocker that the pushrod jammed into the body and dented it. It is possible, however, that the adjuster had loosened some and increased the lash, causing a hammering effect that induced metal to metal contact resulting in heat and ultimately metal failure in the form of stretching and fracturing. It appears to have stretched and torn at the pushrod squirter hole from the edge inward, distorting the bore, causing more heat, then ultimately did a full fracture at the highestload point at the inward side of the bottom of the shaft bore. ...maybe the fracture happened before the tear, would makle more sense. I still am inclined to think loose adjuster was the root.

You can also think of it this way... move the PR in
close... what kind of load is applied to the shaft
and/or rocker... the load goes way up... so if it has
1000psi on it(just a number) is the surface of the rocker
good enough to take that no... NO... thats when rollers
work better.... are any other rockers burnt

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 10:58 PM

All other rockers look good, no slop, no signs of heat.

I'm looking at getting a set of H-S's and not looking back. My question is is it worth the nominal hit in power to drop down to 1.5's... The cam was ground with 1.6's in mind. It is also not a fast ramp design.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 11:13 PM

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All other rockers look good, no slop, no signs of heat.

I'm looking at getting a set of H-S's and not looking back. My question is is it worth the nominal hit in power to drop down to 1.5's... The cam was ground with 1.6's in mind. It is also not a fast ramp design.

My old set(20+Yrs)1.5 Harland Sharps checked out to have 1.56 ratio at the retainers, my newer H.S. 1.6 ratio rockers checked out to have 1.65 at the retainers

I bought a set of single shaft T&D and they varied a little on the ratios at the retainers, I saw around .030 differences in lift at the retainers on both the T&D and H.S.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/22/13 11:35 PM

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All other rockers look good, no slop, no signs of heat.

I'm looking at getting a set of H-S's and not looking back. My question is is it worth the nominal hit in power to drop down to 1.5's... The cam was ground with 1.6's in mind. It is also not a fast ramp design.

If you have 1.6 now I'd stay with them... just make
sure the springs are good

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/23/13 12:34 AM

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The first thing I noticed when you started this post and looking at the picture was the lack of threads from the adjuster out past the rocker. That is why I went to there instructions to see what the recommended. There was no info on that so it may not be an issue. T&D and some others want 2-3 threads beyond the body to help direct the oil to the push-rod cup to assist cooling. In a drag racing app it may not be as much of an issue. One reason I asked about how old the heads were is because Edelbock heads have a few issues. Tight guides and one of our members noticed that the oiling hole in the head bolt is not drill properly. the hole is drilled but it stops as soon as the bit breaks thru. When I checked a brand new set I had sitting here the hole was opened about 50%. Must be drilled on a CNC and being the hole is angled it should be set to drill about an 1/8 inch deeper.

Just looked back at the picture , it would appear that his pushrods are a bit too long ? how that effected this ? But add me to the "use solid spacers instead springs" crowd.

Sharp sells a lower cost rocker, it's bushed instead of full roller, that is sized properly to fit Ebrocks. I don't know if it comes in 1.6 though? Mancini sells them, Todd at CompWedgeRacing ???

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/23/13 05:48 AM

I'm game for solid spacers... I agree with everyone there. As far as the adjusters are concerned, every one has at least a partial thread showing. I have full thread engagement inside the rocker. I am going to buy a replacement rocker arm just to get it running again, but I am in the market for a better set. H-S's look like the way to go.

Posted By: moparlulu

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 04:47 AM

Seems I remember when the cranes came out, they wanted 2 full threads showing on the bottom? If you don't mind a good used one.I think I have a couple 1.6 in. or ex. I could send you?

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 06:27 AM

Thank you for the offer, but I just burned $25 worth of Amazon cash-back points to get a replacement. They will be getting replaced, for sure, but I need the car running and a complete set for sale or use on a milder engine later.

I know that to be the case, but it has always been for oiling reasons, getting the right heighth to get oil into the cup. the ball and cup show no signs of distress. I am really starting to think it shifted sideways and moved the oil groove out of alignment with the hole in the shaft...

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 06:47 AM

OK, I lied, the ball and cup are blue. Didn't notice it until just now. Definitely oil starvation. Notice the intake pushrod is bent from opening the intake valve under such high pressure.

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Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 06:49 AM

Another...

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Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 06:51 AM

One last one for now.

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Posted By: RAMM

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 11:59 AM

Through pushrod oiling and ball/ball is the way to go. It is very difficult for the oil to consistently "find" its way into that cup. IMO it works fine on old tractors (which it does) but has no place on any kind of high performance ICE. Get some T&D's and sleep very well. J.Rob

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 12:56 PM

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Through pushrod oiling and ball/ball is the way to go. It is very difficult for the oil to consistently "find" its way into that cup. IMO it works fine on old tractors (which it does) but has no place on any kind of high performance ICE. Get some T&D's and sleep very well. J.Rob

Here we go. Lets over-engineer a system that works great if the proper time is taken to set it up right. 1000's of quarter-mile passes in my lifetime with out an issue here.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 01:27 PM

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Another...

Check to see if you have the right size ball in the right size pushrod. Also I always start with black moly lube in those cups and ball ends. It could have got hot during intial start up before the oil get's there if it wasn't pre lubed with good hi pressure moly paste.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 01:29 PM

thats why i did this to my 1.6 ,s100,s of passes no prob.

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Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 01:43 PM

I still don't like the springs. Mopars have push rod geometry problems to start with. Why compound the issue and say, "hey lets let this rocker go where ever it wants to". Like I said before I spend hours setting up a set of rockers so the side clearance and sweep pattern is exactly were I want it. It can't move with spacers and aluminum hold-downs limiting it. I then scribe each rocker and spacer with their proper position. If for some reason I am rushing at the track and have the shafts off no mistakes can be made.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 02:04 PM

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OK, I lied, the ball and cup are blue. Didn't notice it until just now. Definitely oil starvation. Notice the intake pushrod is bent from opening the intake valve under such high pressure.

The problem with the pee hole is that on some it doesnt
spray the oil into the cup... you need to see each one
while the engine is running... then again as the revs
go up and oil pressure does also it MIGHT be missing
the cup.. I use the through PR oiling that way you
know its getting oil on the ends of the PR and rocker..
if you had TD shaft and some other rockers where the
adjuster has the hole in them to pass the oil down
the adjuster yours might be up in the rocker too far
and blocking off the oil passage(but you dont)

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 02:23 PM

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One last one for now.

I'm not anywhere near as smart as most here but I still think your pushrods are too long by 2 threads.

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 04:24 PM

JohnRR (and others), I agree, they are too long and since I have bent one and fried another, the new pushrods are going to be about .100 shorter. I'm going to purchase the rockers first, then use these as a baseline to get the right length on the new ones.

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 04:26 PM

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thats why i did this to my 1.6 ,s100,s of passes no prob.

Is the hole oversize?

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 05:10 PM

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JohnRR (and others), I agree, they are too long and since I have bent one and fried another, the new pushrods are going to be about .100 shorter. I'm going to purchase the rockers first, then use these as a baseline to get the right length on the new ones.

Take the pushrod that is bent and hand straighten it with a small hammer. (trust me if you take your time you can get it real close) Now take it and cut it in half with a tubing cutter. Remove an extra 3/4-1 inch from one of the cut pieces. Find the closest tap that will fit inside cut pieces and tap threads. (if it was a 3/8 pushrod probably a 5/16 tap) after both pieces are tapped find a piece of all thread or a bolt with long threads and cut a threaded piece at least 1 1/2 inches long. Use red 271 locktite on one side and thread into one of the cut pieces of the pushrod. screw other end into pushrod with no locktite. You now have the proper tool for checking pushrod lengths in future builds.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 05:19 PM

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thats why i did this to my 1.6 ,s100,s of passes no prob.

Is the hole oversize?

no ,its just angled properly.it shoots oil directly into the cup.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: DNF'd at the Silver State Classic - 05/24/13 05:49 PM

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JohnRR (and others), I agree, they are too long and since I have bent one and fried another, the new pushrods are going to be about .100 shorter. I'm going to purchase the rockers first, then use these as a baseline to get the right length on the new ones.

Take the pushrod that is bent and hand straighten it with a small hammer. (trust me if you take your time you can get it real close) Now take it and cut it in half with a tubing cutter. Remove an extra 3/4-1 inch from one of the cut pieces. Find the closest tap that will fit inside cut pieces and tap threads. (if it was a 3/8 pushrod probably a 5/16 tap) after both pieces are tapped find a piece of all thread or a bolt with long threads and cut a threaded piece at least 1 1/2 inches long. Use red 271 locktite on one side and thread into one of the cut pieces of the pushrod. screw other end into pushrod with no locktite. You now have the proper tool for checking pushrod lengths in future builds.

I was going to suggest this but I'd just do it with a good one so you know it's straight , whether it's one valve or 2 it's no longer a complete set.

DNF'd at the Silver State Classic NOW WITH VIDEO!