Sunoco 94 jetting/report and % ethanol test

Posted By: Dodgem

Sunoco 94 jetting/report and % ethanol test - 05/15/13 05:31 PM

unscientific jet test below!
Does anyone have back to back runs and dyno info on E fuel blends verses non blends and do the E10 blends like Sunoco 94 like more jet and timing!!
Thanks

did some searches but did not find exactly what I was looking for but maybe now guys have more experience??

Posted By: BradH

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting - 05/15/13 05:38 PM

Not sure about timing differences, but Keith Dunnuck's recent article in Mopar Muscle on air-fuel tuning w/ a wide-band O2 sensor leads me to believe the 10% ethanol blends make more power at WOT tuned for air-fuel ratios closer to 12.0 vs. 13.0 for non-blended gas.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting - 05/15/13 06:37 PM

I'll have to go read it seems I get them (Mopar muscle) out of the mail box them and leave them in a pile??

wonder what jetting achieves this??

Posted By: BradH

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting - 05/15/13 10:13 PM

Quote:

wonder what jetting achieves this??

The standard reply "It depends..." is the only true answer to that question.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting - 05/15/13 10:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

wonder what jetting achieves this??

The standard reply "It depends..." is the only true answer to that question.

I more meant if X jetting in the test with 0 Ethanol and how much he ended up going in jets sizes with 10% as in 1 or 2 jet sizes in this case!

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting - 05/16/13 02:31 PM

read the article does not really tell what jet changes from a 0% ethanol fuel to a 10 % ethanol fuel??

Did find this on line that says:
"E-10 -lower float levels 1/32 from original specifications increase main metering circuits� fuel flow by 10 percent, increase idle jet diameter by 0.002 inch."

so does that equates to about 3 jet sizes

supposedly According to Holley, each jets size is just over 3%
source
http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Ethanoluse.htm

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/19/13 03:30 PM

Well when we check my plugs two weeks ago they were real white and clean.
so when I went to jet up Friday I found I actually had the stock jets in (92 square) instead of the 94's I had run in the cold last fall forgot when after last time out i had ignition problem which turned out to be failing coil I had put the stock for my old dommy back in.

I wanted to go 95 square but only had 2 95's so i went 94/95 front and 95/94 back.

First 4 TT's for 1/8 mile pro tree racing going in much deeper than normal 1/8 mph were 102 into a cross wind where last week similar air were 101 ran clean and smooth plugs now have just a slight darkness to them so think I'm on the right track. Now to test the 94 I ran to see what the actual Ethanol % is?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/19/13 09:56 PM

I just tested the fuel I bought Friday (and the past 3 weeks) and it is in fact 10% ethanol. Drained the fuel from the car and put it all in the truck as it's likely three weeks till I go out again.

Wonder if there is a two way spring loaded vent valve to keep it sealed from the air while it sits in the fuel cell??

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/19/13 10:17 PM

Fuel safe looks like they have two way vent valve that takes low pressure each way to let pressure out or let air in when fuel pump reduces pressure

http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/vent-check-valves.html?mode=list

http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/vent-check-valves/tpv6-in-line-pressure-relief-vent-valve.html

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/19/13 10:31 PM

In the heat you have to let it vent... you MIGHT be
able to find a 1 psi pop off valve so it will relieve
pressure above 1 psi... but I dont know of any

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/19/13 11:18 PM

Quote:

In the heat you have to let it vent... you MIGHT be
able to find a 1 psi pop off valve so it will relieve
pressure above 1 psi... but I dont know of any

This one seems to be a low pressure two way .08 psi to suck in and .725 psi to vent out??
http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/vent-check-valves/tpv6-in-line-pressure-relief-vent-valve.html

Posted By: mshred

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/20/13 02:17 PM

Probably not the best answer to your post, but there is a builder on here who is in Ontario like us (haven't seen him post in a while, unless im just not here enough anymore, goes by RAMM) and me and him discussed some stuff through pm's about octane and compression using our pump fuel. He said he made more power using shell 91 over sunoco 94, but I use the Sunoco stuff just because its more common here, and because I will take the extra octane rating for cheap insurance to avoid detonation on the street and WOT with my compression (10.5:1 with iron heads).

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:00 AM

Funny you should mention that. :-0) part of what got me going was the 10% in the US threads and wondering if Sunoco is in fact 10% as I did find on line and verified with a test. Then how to take ethanol out of the gas for you lawn mowers (and snow blowers up hear) then my machinist was telling me about a roundy round guy we know running a 347 ford who made the most power on a dyno with Shell V91 even over 94 Sunoco (20 hp and 30 or some other fuel brands) just doing fuel changes and running again. I'm going to buy some shell 91 and test it for ethanol as looking for fuel for the lawn mower at the very least. But at 11.75 to 1 and maybe a true 12 to 1 with my aluminum rod growth hot not sure I want to try 91. If I do it will be a TT day and start my timing at say 34 and sneak it back up to 39??

Now on line searches dated 2012 turned up Esso 91 is supposed to be ethanol free, I seen a returned inquiry to sunoco (so Husky and Petro can) saying 91 is also ethanol free but only way to guaranty you get ethanol free is to buy from stations that don't sell ultra 94??
apparently 94 is 91 with 10% ethanol added which brings the octane from 91 to 94?? will be checking!

I think the shell is supposed to have some special New Nitrogen Enriched ??

Today I tested 87 from Petro canada and it's 8% Ethanol

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:10 AM

I tested pump 93 from several different stations around me on my dyno.
They all were right around 6% ethanol which is required to get the tax breaks on ethanol fuel. Sunoco93 cost 20 to 30 horsepower compared to Citgo93 in my area on a 550 hp engine . I have tested it against other fuels available around here and Citgo consistently shows gains.
Again,this is whats available here and your results may vary.
Keith

Posted By: mshred

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:12 AM

Quote:

Funny you should mention that. :-0) part of what got me going was the 10% in the US threads and wondering if Sunoco is in fact 10% as I did find on line and verified with a test. Then how to take ethanol out of the gas for you lawn mowers (and snow blowers up hear) then my machinist was telling me about a roundy round guy we know running a 347 ford who made the most power on a dyno with Shell V91 even over 94 Sunoco (20 hp and 30 or some other fuel brands) just doing fuel changes and running again. I'm going to buy some shell 91 and test it for ethanol as looking for fuel for the lawn mower at the very least. But at 11.75 to 1 and maybe a true 12 to 1 with my aluminum rod growth hot not sure I want to try 91. If I do it will be a TT day and start my timing at say 34 and sneak it back up to 39??

Now on line searches dated 2012 turned up Esso 91 is supposed to be ethanol free, I seen a returned inquiry to sunoco (so Husky and Petro can) saying 91 is also ethanol free but only way to guaranty you get ethanol free is to buy from stations that don't sell ultra 94??
apparently 94 is 91 with 10% ethanol added which brings the octane from 91 to 94?? will be checking!

I think the shell is supposed to have some special New Nitrogen Enriched ??

Today I tested 87 from Petro canada and it's 8% Ethanol

I tried finding the post on the OSCA message board, but I asked a question on there about gasoline, and Nick Agostino (im sure you know him, runs the twin turbo camaro now in outlaw 10.5) who builds gas stations had told me that all gasoline in Canada HAS to have 5% ethanol in it as legislated by the government. Now, I have never tested the gasoline from shell or esso, but if he is right (and id like to think he is since he builds the damn places) then I would assume those fuels contain ethanol as well, even if in smaller amounts.

Only way to find out though is to test like you are and see

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Funny you should mention that. :-0) part of what got me going was the 10% in the US threads and wondering if Sunoco is in fact 10% as I did find on line and verified with a test. Then how to take ethanol out of the gas for you lawn mowers (and snow blowers up hear) then my machinist was telling me about a roundy round guy we know running a 347 ford who made the most power on a dyno with Shell V91 even over 94 Sunoco (20 hp and 30 or some other fuel brands) just doing fuel changes and running again. I'm going to buy some shell 91 and test it for ethanol as looking for fuel for the lawn mower at the very least. But at 11.75 to 1 and maybe a true 12 to 1 with my aluminum rod growth hot not sure I want to try 91. If I do it will be a TT day and start my timing at say 34 and sneak it back up to 39??

Now on line searches dated 2012 turned up Esso 91 is supposed to be ethanol free, I seen a returned inquiry to sunoco (so Husky and Petro can) saying 91 is also ethanol free but only way to guaranty you get ethanol free is to buy from stations that don't sell ultra 94??
apparently 94 is 91 with 10% ethanol added which brings the octane from 91 to 94?? will be checking!

I think the shell is supposed to have some special New Nitrogen Enriched ??

Today I tested 87 from Petro canada and it's 8% Ethanol

I tried finding the post on the OSCA message board, but I asked a question on there about gasoline, and Nick Agostino (im sure you know him, runs the twin turbo camaro now in outlaw 10.5) who builds gas stations had told me that all gasoline in Canada HAS to have 5% ethanol in it as legislated by the government. Now, I have never tested the gasoline from shell or esso, but if he is right (and id like to think he is since he builds the damn places) then I would assume those fuels contain ethanol as well, even if in smaller amounts.

Only way to find out though is to test like you are and see

Your taking a number as GOD... as you said that the so
called 91 made more power... it may have on that
set up.. over octane WILL make less power per the
same timing.... its not rocket science but it does
take testing

Posted By: mshred

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Funny you should mention that. :-0) part of what got me going was the 10% in the US threads and wondering if Sunoco is in fact 10% as I did find on line and verified with a test. Then how to take ethanol out of the gas for you lawn mowers (and snow blowers up hear) then my machinist was telling me about a roundy round guy we know running a 347 ford who made the most power on a dyno with Shell V91 even over 94 Sunoco (20 hp and 30 or some other fuel brands) just doing fuel changes and running again. I'm going to buy some shell 91 and test it for ethanol as looking for fuel for the lawn mower at the very least. But at 11.75 to 1 and maybe a true 12 to 1 with my aluminum rod growth hot not sure I want to try 91. If I do it will be a TT day and start my timing at say 34 and sneak it back up to 39??

Now on line searches dated 2012 turned up Esso 91 is supposed to be ethanol free, I seen a returned inquiry to sunoco (so Husky and Petro can) saying 91 is also ethanol free but only way to guaranty you get ethanol free is to buy from stations that don't sell ultra 94??
apparently 94 is 91 with 10% ethanol added which brings the octane from 91 to 94?? will be checking!

I think the shell is supposed to have some special New Nitrogen Enriched ??

Today I tested 87 from Petro canada and it's 8% Ethanol

I tried finding the post on the OSCA message board, but I asked a question on there about gasoline, and Nick Agostino (im sure you know him, runs the twin turbo camaro now in outlaw 10.5) who builds gas stations had told me that all gasoline in Canada HAS to have 5% ethanol in it as legislated by the government. Now, I have never tested the gasoline from shell or esso, but if he is right (and id like to think he is since he builds the damn places) then I would assume those fuels contain ethanol as well, even if in smaller amounts.

Only way to find out though is to test like you are and see

Your taking a number as GOD... as you said that the so
called 91 made more power... it may have on that
set up.. over octane WILL make less power per the
same timing.... its not rocket science but it does
take testing

Actually, I said that the only way to really know the ethanol levels and see which will make more power is through testing

I myself have personally never done any tests to see.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:49 AM

Actually, I said that the only way to really know the ethanol levels and see which will make more power is through testing

I myself have personally never done any tests to see.

Its always a bit scary to drop the octane but I've
done it on 2 engines and went quicker on the track
without issues... MOST people tend to over octane
to be safe and just call it good

Posted By: mshred

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 04:57 AM

Quote:

Actually, I said that the only way to really know the ethanol levels and see which will make more power is through testing

I myself have personally never done any tests to see.

Its always a bit scary to drop the octane but I've
done it on 2 engines and went quicker on the track
without issues... MOST people tend to over octane
to be safe and just call it good

I have always been the type of guy you mentioned in the latter...but this post has me thinking about possibly trying out the fuels back to back and seeing if there is a difference

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 06:25 PM

Thanks keith like I said a freind who runs in the lower Nascar Canada ranks has tested and got best so far fom Shell V Power. supposed to be ethanol free.

Anyway the law As I understand it in ontario and I think canada right now is there has to be an average content of 5% ethanol in the total fuel sold by any one company.

Going out now to but some Shell V power and testing it for Ethanol and maybe some Esso 91 while I'm out!

Posted By: firefighter3931

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

Thanks keith like I said a freind who runs in the lower Nascar Canada ranks has tested and got best so far fom Shell V Power. supposed to be ethanol free.

Anyway the law As I understand it in ontario and I think canada right now is there has to be an average content of 5% ethanol in the total fuel sold by any one company.

Going out now to but some Shell V power and testing it for Ethanol and maybe some Esso 91 while I'm out!

I was curious as well so i made a call

I spoke with a buddy who is a lab tech @ the Shell refinary in Sarnia and he confirmed that the 91 grade is indeed ethanol free

He did state that the requirement is for minimum 5% average for all fuels sold. The 87 is 10% and the 89 is 4-5% so that's how they get around it. He also told me that the 89 is a mix between 87 and 91 and it is done right at the pump which i found interesting.

Hope that helps ya Dodgem

Ron

Posted By: onig

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 09:08 PM

So just how are you checking for alcohol content in the gasoline, just curious.

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 09:14 PM

There are commercially available testers out there pretty cheap. I think I paid 25 bucks for mine. Got it from the local small engine repair shop. Ask those guys what they think about ethanol fuels if you want an ear full
Keith

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 09:21 PM

Just finished testing as I said I tested 87 and 94 Ultra from my local Petro Canada which is Sunoco and according to them fuels are consistent across Petro Can, Husky and Sunoco brand stores (few Sunocos if any left)
got 8% for 87 and 10% for 94 Ultra

Today got 91 Esso, 91 Shell V power and 91 from that same petro can as above.

Results are
I first pumped 5 to six liters into truck tank first then 2 to 2.5 liters into an empty container at each stop. (3.78 Liters in a US gallon)

91 from the Petro can (Sunoco) was 8 % ehtanol

91 from Esso was .7% ethanol

91 Shell V Power was .5 % ethanol.

Maybe a bit of E8/10 in containers drained real well but may more than likely be residual from winter blends??

Not sure where I'm going from hear with this info but for sure found my source of lawn mower / snow blower fuel! LOL!

so far it seems Sunoco Ultra 94 likes 2 to 3 extra jet sizes?

Now Maybe saturday I'll go to timed trials and try Shell 91 V power
turning the timing back then sneaking it up 2 deg at a time.

Then drain that out and go back to the Ulta 94 E10 and jet up to what we think works and try that???

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 09:40 PM

I just used my CC buret found how much it takes to fill up to the 100cc line (+ 7cc) and then filled to 57 cc line which is 50 cc add 10cc water shake and let it settle out drain water ethanol mixture say it then dropped to 53 cc line 4 cc Ethanol was removed 4/50 X 100 = 8%

Some use a 200 ml beaker add 20 ml (cc) water then 100ml (cc) gas shack and let settle out

or cut in volumes in 1/2 as i did I used what was at hand CC burret

Pure gas V power

After adding water and shaking

after settling out water level is about .3 to .4 above where pure water should have been draining to pure gas showed .2 to .3 below wher pure gas started s lets say .25 / 50 X 100 = .5%

Now the 94 was 5 cc higher than water added and when water and ethanol drained off was 5 cc lower than start so 10%

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/21/13 09:56 PM

fuel testers
http://www.fuel-testers.com/

http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/menus/ps/fueltesters.html

You tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDAw4a6Ck0

all you would need is one of these
http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=393349011

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 02:17 PM

Something like this would be the ticket for fuel testing but since I already had a cc buret I used it

Posted By: Dabee

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 02:50 PM

Barry, I agree that 10% ethonal sucks. Remember that stumble we couldn't tune out of Da Bee? I was convinced I needed to dump the carb and install EFI, then I found a local station that sells 100% gas 91, so I started running it in Da Bee. The stumble is gone drivability is better, it's feels like a whole different engine. Maybe I don't need EFI after all. But I still love running E85 in Da Beast!

Posted By: BradH

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 03:04 PM

I'm going to pick up one of the fuel testers to run some comparison tests of the local pump fuel (Mid-Atlantic USA).

The two closest brands which I've used traditionally in The MoPig are Sunoco and Shell, both of which have the standard "Contains 10% Ethanol" stickers on their multi-octane dispensing pumps.

We still have 93-octane available here, but my assumption is that everything in this region is an ethanol blend year around (and has been for years now). Out of date or not, the links to sources for "straight gas" vendors listed above showed nothing close to me.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 04:26 PM

Quikfuel sells a E 85 tester that is reasonable, I'm sure it will test other % of gasahol also

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 04:36 PM

Quote:

Barry, I agree that 10% ethonal sucks. Remember that stumble we couldn't tune out of Da Bee? I was convinced I needed to dump the carb and install EFI, then I found a local station that sells 100% gas 91, so I started running it in Da Bee. The stumble is gone drivability is better, it's feels like a whole different engine. Maybe I don't need EFI after all. But I still love running E85 in Da Beast!

Cool Russ going to try the 91 V power and sneak up on the timing vs the E10 94 Ultra. mixing 20 litres of 91 with 5 litres of 110 would give me 94 to 95 octane if I felt I needed it!

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 04:44 PM

Quote:

I'm going to pick up one of the fuel testers to run some comparison tests of the local pump fuel (Mid-Atlantic USA).

The two closest brands which I've used traditionally in The MoPig are Sunoco and Shell, both of which have the standard "Contains 10% Ethanol" stickers on their multi-octane dispensing pumps.

We still have 93-octane available here, but my assumption is that everything in this region is an ethanol blend year around (and has been for years now). Out of date or not, the links to sources for "straight gas" vendors listed above showed nothing close to me.

some online searches found one guy that had emailed shell and others showed even within some states the % of Ethanol in shell 91 changes but seem to say that while Canada was staying 91 E free the US will be E10. Now that will likely change here too if the government changes we should be good for another 2 to 3 years but some were pushing the government to go to at least 10% and the the 15% your federal government is considering!

Posted By: justinp61

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 04:53 PM

Here is a site that lists stations that sell pure gas.

http://pure-gas.org/

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Sunoco 94 E10 jetting/report - 05/22/13 08:43 PM

Thanks I'll test the Canadian tire but I'm pretty sure they sell ESSO!