Posted By: mopar dave
adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 06:19 PM
anyone know of a bump steer kit for A body?
don't want to spend 350 on hotchkis tie rods.
don't want to spend 350 on hotchkis tie rods.
adjusting bumpsteer A body
Posted By: jbc426
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 07:04 PM
I don't think simply swapping in those tie rods will change your bump steer. Hotchkis makes an upper control arm that moves the piviot point upwards on the rear of the control arm, but it's expensive.
It's supposed to better match the sweep radius of the lower control arm's travel from full compression to full rebound, to the sweep radius of the outer tie rod end's sweep radius during full compression to full rebound. I'm no expert, but my stock suspension doesn't bump steer that bad at all. I did have to massage a few things to get them lined up to where they like to be.
Try posting in the Handling section. There's a lot of guys that know tons about this topic like AutoxCuda and others.
Direct Connection published a book on Chassis's that addresses this issue in detail.
It's supposed to better match the sweep radius of the lower control arm's travel from full compression to full rebound, to the sweep radius of the outer tie rod end's sweep radius during full compression to full rebound. I'm no expert, but my stock suspension doesn't bump steer that bad at all. I did have to massage a few things to get them lined up to where they like to be.
Try posting in the Handling section. There's a lot of guys that know tons about this topic like AutoxCuda and others.
Direct Connection published a book on Chassis's that addresses this issue in detail.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 07:13 PM
Quote:
anyone know of a bump steer kit for A body?
don't want to spend 350 on hotchkis tie rods.
You will need some sort of Heim ended tie rods if you want to be able to make an adjustment/correction to get the bump steer you are looking for.
You will also need to buy or make a bumpsteer gauge and buy adjustment shims.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 07:48 PM
I have tubular upper control arms. I read the chassis book and what i under stand is the outer tr end needs to be lowered. John calvert told me to use spacers, but somebody must make a kit. Last time i measured mine i had something like 1" of toe in at 3 or 4" rebound. Need to correct this.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 07:56 PM
To set or change the bumpsteer you have to shim or somehow move the tie rods. Unless the new parts just measured out a better bumpsteer than before. Which is cool.
If anyone is more interested in the details of bump steering a car read here:
Making Bump Steer Corrections: http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=13#Q3
BTW these Longacre tech articles are pretty darn good :
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/index.asp
If anyone is more interested in the details of bump steering a car read here:
Making Bump Steer Corrections: http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=13#Q3
BTW these Longacre tech articles are pretty darn good :
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/index.asp
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:01 PM
If you look at the hotchkis t rods they have spacers on the outer ends. I dont need the whole t rod just the outer end with the spacer. Ill read the articles. Thanks
Posted By: pattyboy 572
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:06 PM
Dave look @ what summit has available ,maybe some will work .they have ends only with spacers....went through this when i installed my cap k member kit pat
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:10 PM
Quote:
I have tubular upper control arms. I read the chassis book and what i under stand is the outer tr end needs to be lowered. John calvert told me to use spacers, but somebody must make a kit. Last time i measured mine i had something like 1" of toe in at 3 or 4" rebound. Need to correct this.
You need to change at least the outer tie rod to a spherical rod end and run a taper to straight bolt conversion in the end of the steering arm; called a "tie rod adapter stud". Circle track supply places have those.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable...CFcdxQgodpWAAwg
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:14 PM
ill check summit.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:16 PM
looks like what I need. what else will I need to go with it? thanks
Posted By: dvw
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:17 PM
Are the tie rods always to low?
The parts are available at Speedway to make what ever you need to raise them. To low,in,or out and the arms will need to be bent.
Doug
The parts are available at Speedway to make what ever you need to raise them. To low,in,or out and the arms will need to be bent.
Doug
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:17 PM
You must convert that end you need the adjustment to a tie rod adapter with spherical rod end at the least. (I would suggest just converting the whole tie rod arm assembly to sphericals inner and outer. You may need to adjust the inner tie rod too.)
Then make the adjustment and fine adjustment you get a bump steer shim kit:
http://www.quickcar.net/index.php?crn=233&rn=776&action=show_detail
And of course you will need a bump steer gauge:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=na...Aw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.cGE&fp=f8b817aa2f760986&biw=1280&bih=530
Then make the adjustment and fine adjustment you get a bump steer shim kit:
http://www.quickcar.net/index.php?crn=233&rn=776&action=show_detail
And of course you will need a bump steer gauge:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=na...Aw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.cGE&fp=f8b817aa2f760986&biw=1280&bih=530
Posted By: a493demon
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:25 PM
look at places that sell circle track stuff you can get the stuff to do the tie rods for around 100 bucks.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 08:28 PM
Quote:
Are the tie rods always to low?
The parts are available at Speedway to make what ever you need to raise them. To low,in,or out and the arms will need to be bent.
Doug
I agree. I don't think there is a tie rod adapter to up the stud coming out on the small part of the taper???
When I checked mine, I needed to remove spacers to make this 100% theorically perfect. But mine was allready at the lowest setting.
Luckily, my numbers were very good. The circle track and road course chassis builder told me just to leave it.
Edit: Just an FYI, 0.082" is only a little over 1/16" toe out at 3" compression. And 0.114" is only a little under 1/8" toe in at 3" rebound/extension.
I run probably close to 4 TIMES the spring rate a drag car does with my 1.14" T-bar. So I might only see those 3" numbers in a few corners on a road course.
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 09:11 PM
Quote:
anyone know of a bump steer kit for A body?
don't want to spend 350 on hotchkis tie rods.
http://www.dillingerchassis.com/product/tie-rod-to-heim-joint-conversion/
chromemoly or aluminium sleeves
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 11:06 PM
Well I added the tubular uppers and had caster set to 4* which I think knocked by bump steer way off. I thought after reading the chassis book I needed to lower the outer ends. Just want to get it closer than 1"@3" rebound.maybe I'm wrong and need to raise them.
Posted By: dartman366
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/16/13 11:18 PM
here is the end result of fixing my bumpsteer. looks slightly different from this, ended up using a shorter bolt and after tweeking the spacer was slightly shorter, plus I used a large washer under the heim joint to contain everything in case of joint failure.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 12:38 AM
Quote:
Well I added the tubular uppers and had caster set to 4* which I think knocked by bump steer way off. ...
This are my alignment specs with the above bumpsteer measurement table:
toe: 1/16" toe in
camber: negative 1.5 degrees (top of tire in)
caster: postive 5.9 degrees
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 12:55 AM
Quote:
.... I thought after reading the chassis book I needed to lower the outer ends. Just want to get it closer than 1"@3" rebound.maybe I'm wrong and need to raise them.
I was pretty close on my numbers so I did not make an adjustment.
But I did notice something going back on that Longacre bump steer guide:
Quote:
C. Making Bump Steer Corrections
Now that you have measured your bump steer you will need to adjust, shim or relocate the suspension components to get the exact reading that you desire. Below are some tips that will quickly guide you through the corrective process for cars with front steer style suspension.
I'm pretty sure that makes the Bump Steer Chart useless for rear steer cars. Almost positive.
I'm pretty sure for a rear steer cars you would swap all the "toe out" symptoms with "toe in". I'd have to think about it a bunch. But I would use the DC Chassis chart/guide.
Get the tie rod linkage you can adjust, get a bump steer gauge, get adjustment shims, and then go through the process. Add and take away a bunch of shims and record what happens. You will for sure learn what works for your car and have a better understanding on what is going on. That understanding WILL make you faster now, stay faster, and make you faster in the future.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 01:27 AM
My measurements are
1/16 toe in
0 camber
4 caster
1/16 toe in
0 camber
4 caster
Posted By: roadhazard
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 01:53 AM
From what I have read in the Chrysler Chassis Bible, yes there is a difference between front and rear steer cars.
My
Stick with the info in the Bible and don't cause yourself any confusion 
I need to put this practice into action on my car and have been reading, collecting parts and procrastinating
My
Stick with the info in the Bible and don't cause yourself any confusion I need to put this practice into action on my car and have been reading, collecting parts and procrastinating
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 01:57 AM
Quote:
My measurements are
1/16 toe in
0 camber
4 caster
Are your specs with the body up 1".. thats the way to
set up a drag car... also... did it go toe in or toe
out during the suspension travel.... toe out is BAD and
will cause the car to dart around
Posted By: brads70
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 02:31 AM
Here is what I did for my E-Body to get rid of most of the bumpsteer.
http://www.howeracing.com/p-7449-howe-quick-bump-tie-rod-ends.aspx
http://www.howeracing.com/p-7449-howe-quick-bump-tie-rod-ends.aspx
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 04:04 AM
Yes 1" up. Toe in as I lift it.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 04:10 AM
Wow? That looks like way more work than I care to do.
Posted By: Tobbe
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 07:33 PM
its that a roadrace /stiff spring car? dragcars have a lot of suspensiontravel wouldnt lower the outher joint ad toe when wheelstand? my steeringarms are not parallel to the ground when on race height
Quote:
Here is what I did for my E-Body to get rid of most of the bumpsteer.
http://www.howeracing.com/p-7449-howe-quick-bump-tie-rod-ends.aspx
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 08:07 PM
Quote:
its that a roadrace /stiff spring car? dragcars have a lot of suspensiontravel wouldnt lower the outher joint ad toe when wheelstand? my steeringarms are not parallel to the ground when on race heightQuote:
Here is what I did for my E-Body to get rid of most of the bumpsteer.....
Brad70 has C-body spindles adapted to his E-body to get thick rotor and camber gain for a handling car. So other E/B bodies with stock spindles may have different tie rod spacer needs.
Although, Dartman366 has similar thick spacers on is drag car. And the ride height looks pretty high to me.
I think it's the starting point on your drag car Tobbe that will make a difference. Yours is jacked up at ride height and they say add 1" to you ride height for drag cars for a starting/zero point. Then measure 3" bump and extension for bump steer.
Posted By: Leon441
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 10:41 PM
Don't know if this will help on your particular car. I was having terrible results with stock suspension. I found that every time the car broke in a wheelstand it would drag the headers. I decided the car did not need squat any lower than ride height. So I made new lower control arm bumps. Used lakewood traction bar snubbers and as many fender washers as I could get below them. My car was not in the weeds or jacked up. The upper control arms were level.
For me this fixed a lot of the darting coming out of wheel stands and a lot of maner problems on the street. A drag car does not need to be set up for the suspension to allow for driving over rocks and logs. LOL
Leon
For me this fixed a lot of the darting coming out of wheel stands and a lot of maner problems on the street. A drag car does not need to be set up for the suspension to allow for driving over rocks and logs. LOL
Leon
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/17/13 11:25 PM
looks like the hotchkis tie rods would be the easiest fix. thanks for all the info guys. i'll get after this bump steer issue in a few weeks.
Posted By: Tobbe
Re: adjusting bumpsteer A body - 02/18/13 01:11 PM
i have done the bumpstops all ready and will move the outher joint as well
Quote:
Don't know if this will help on your particular car. I was having terrible results with stock suspension. I found that every time the car broke in a wheelstand it would drag the headers. I decided the car did not need squat any lower than ride height. So I made new lower control arm bumps. Used lakewood traction bar snubbers and as many fender washers as I could get below them. My car was not in the weeds or jacked up. The upper control arms were level.
For me this fixed a lot of the darting coming out of wheel stands and a lot of maner problems on the street. A drag car does not need to be set up for the suspension to allow for driving over rocks and logs. LOL
Leon