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440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build

Posted By: Blues_Cuda

440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 06:35 AM

I've been seeing a lot of posts on dyno results lately, so I just wanted to throw my dyno session out there for conversation sake.

My approach is a little different, however. Rather than a high dollar build, this old school engine is comprised of used parts that I already had in my possession and an old unwanted shortblock a buddy of mine had in his garage.

Back in late August, the 440 cast crank shortblock in my wife's '70 Barracuda finally let go after many years of hard service. I do not have any discretionary income for cars at this point, so we threw something together to hold me over until I can build a 'proper' engine. (Whenever that may be...)

Here are some quick details:

-'72 440 HP2 shortblock with six pack rods and .030 TRW L2295 pistons. It was rebuilt back in the 90's and has unknown miles. It had been sitting in my buddies garage for a while, but the cylinders looked decent. I pulled the rod and main caps...the bearings looked OK. Rather than tear it down and potentionally open up a can of worms, I just let it go the way it was. Definitely not something I was excited about with the heavy rods and heavy pistons down in the hole, but the price was right @ only $300.

- .590 MP solid cam and lifters...used and showing more wear than I would have liked, but it was free. (Could not use the Ultradyne solid cam from the blown up motor, for it was in 3 pcs.) Installed @ 103.

- 906 heads and single plane M1 from the old engine. Heads flow around 270 @ .600 lift on the intake. I'm having a brain fart on how the exhaust flows, but it is respectable. The heads are 78cc if I remember correctly. Overall, a very nice pair of iron heads that are done right. (I'm fortunate enough to have a brother in that line of work.) The M1 has had some plenum work done to it. A basically stock AED 850 Holley. Also like to add that even though the cam was destroyed in the old engine, there were no bent pushrods or any valvetrain damage other than 1 bent valve. How, I do not know...just got lucky I guess.

-We welded up the 2 holes in the old Moroso pan, beat the Milodon windage tray back into shape, put on some fresh Fel Pro 1009s and had a replacement engine for a total of $500 minus fluids.

My brother had a few favors due to him with a buddy that has a Superflow dyno in his shop, so I was able to have a dyno day on December 1st. (A big thanks to my brother for that...no cost to me other than my time and the only reason this dyno session happened in the first place. Let's face it...I could not warrant spending $$$ on a dyno session for a $500 engine. )

We did 10 pulls before calling it a day. Basically 550hp and 550ft lbs of torque...thankfully all under 6000rpm since the thought of spinning this thing any higher scares me. (Using the Hooker Comps off of the Barracuda, a 6AL box, and spinning a factory water pump.)

The Barracuda previously ran 11.50s @ 118mph in 100% street trim with the old cast crank 440. (3825lbs with me behind the wheel.) This replacement engine feels more powerful on the street than the last, but I'll have to wait till spring to see what kind of numbers it will lay down at the track. Everybody has their own opinion of streetable, but this one drives around town just as nice as the old engine. I will run race gas a little more often due to the compression going up .6 pts from the last combo, but it's not like we drive the car more than 100 miles a weekend as it is.

My 2yr old son colored all over my dyno sheets, but he did spare one. This printout is not the best pull of the day, but it will give you an idea of how the numbers look. I know we left some power on the table, but I was pretty happy with the results.

Again, I just wanted to throw this dyno session out there for the guys that do not have the resources for 'good' stuff. Is it a 'proper' build? Heck No. How long will the engine last? I don't know. For only a $500 investment, I'm not overly concerned.

Attached picture 7552827-DSC09929.JPG
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 07:18 AM

Nice build, I've had very similar builds since I'm usually on a tight budget as well.
Have fun!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 07:36 AM

Looks like it wasn't going in the hole full tilt at 6300 RPM @round 1500 RPM spread between peak HP and peak torque ,that old 590 is working good Sometimes it pays to use your old junk I have with similar results
Posted By: skrews

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 09:03 AM

Very respectable. Love those low buck builds. Sometimes its just more satisfying to do more with less. Built a 360 last year for around $700 that made 442 HP. Probably my favorite engine build.
Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 02:26 PM

Thanks for sharing. That's a better torque curve than I would have expected from such a big cam. Maybe I WILL try that camshaft.
Posted By: tboomer

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 02:31 PM

Nice!! That is almost the same engine like my old 446"...That lasted me 9 or 10 years!
Posted By: Scott58

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 02:52 PM

Thanks for sharing! A great low buck combo that shows that some "old school" parts still work just fine.

Did you verify the CR? I am wondering what is was. Also, what's the valve train? Rockers, ratio, springs?

Those heads, "done right" are working well for 906's.

Scott
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 03:01 PM

Cool.... another cheapo engine... I did the same thing
with a small block for my Rampage... its all stuff
I had laying around the shop except I bought pistons....
You were lean on that whole run... hope you fattened it up
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 03:23 PM

That's the way to do it. No need to spend thousands of $$$ on an engine.
Posted By: Blues_Cuda

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 05:00 PM

Quote:

Thanks for sharing! A great low buck combo that shows that some "old school" parts still work just fine.

Did you verify the CR? I am wondering what is was. Also, what's the valve train? Rockers, ratio, springs?

Those heads, "done right" are working well for 906's.

Scott




10.989:1 compression, so I just call it 11:1.

Simple valvetrain...Crane gold 1.5 rockers with Smith Bros adjusters, Comp dual springs, retainers and Smith Bros pushrods. (All from the old engine.)

I credit my brother for the engine making the power that it does. It would have been a 450hp engine if he was not involved.

Attached picture 7553036-DSC00796-1.jpg
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 05:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for sharing! A great low buck combo that shows that some "old school" parts still work just fine.

Did you verify the CR? I am wondering what is was. Also, what's the valve train? Rockers, ratio, springs?

Those heads, "done right" are working well for 906's.

Scott




10.989:1 compression, so I just call it 11:1.

Simple valvetrain...Crane gold 1.5 rockers with Smith Bros adjusters, Comp dual springs, retainers and Smith Bros pushrods. (All from the old engine.)

I credit my brother for the engine making the power that it does. It would have been a 450hp engine if he was not involved.




With a 1050 that thing might make 600hp.
Posted By: Blues_Cuda

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 05:43 PM

Here is a short clip of how it sounds open exhaust. Definitely nothing to look at in this video...just the sound.

440 on dyno-open exhaust
Posted By: Blues_Cuda

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 05:45 PM

Here is how it sounds in my wife's Barracuda. Sounds just like the old engine actually.

440 in the Barracuda
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 06:12 PM

Sadly, those "Goodguy" kinda deals on used shortblocks aren't very common.

Thanks for posting otherwise. Always cool to see what others pull together on a budget. The old school Mopar stuff was used over a long period of time for a reason.

Personally, a hearty strip/strip combo that runs a respectable number is what it's all about.
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 06:14 PM

Retty tuff to beat 1$ per hp!!
Posted By: 70VcodeCoronetRT

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 06:34 PM

Had a very similar 440 build in my 70 bee drag car. Except I did buy the eddy rpm heads. Went 10.5s @ 128mph. Have to love the old mopars.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/19/13 10:48 PM

With 11 to 1 and that cam I'll bet it would run fine on 93 octane?
What cranking compression does it give you??

I used to run an Ultradyne .597/.620 lift 263/271 @ .050 with 906 heads
at 11.5 to 1 it was fine with 94 and 38 total later we bumped it to 12.2 to 1 and then it needed 40% 110 and 60% 94 (or it's what i ran at the track) and on the street turned the timing back to 34 total and ran straight 94
Posted By: BSB67

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 02:05 AM

The 2295 piston has a 12 cc dome and with a 78 cc head should be way more than 11:1. Maybe more like 12:1
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 02:22 AM

very nice!
Posted By: BluCuda

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 04:00 AM

What are the specs of the Ultradyne cam you had and how did it perform on the street and track before it broke?
Posted By: Blues_Cuda

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 04:15 AM

Quote:

The 2295 piston has a 12 cc dome and with a 78 cc head should be way more than 11:1. Maybe more like 12:1




These did not have a 12 cc dome...it was actually a little less than 10.

...and this was far from a zero-deck.
Posted By: Blues_Cuda

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 04:47 AM

Quote:

What are the specs of the Ultradyne cam you had and how did it perform on the street and track before it broke?




I don't have the grind # handy at the moment, but the duration @ .050 was in the 250s and it had .588 lift. It was a breeze to drive on the street. Obviously it was far from a smooth, stock idle, but stop and go driving was not an issue. As I stated earlier, everybody has a different idea of what is streetable. My wife never had an issue with it though...never had to be 2 footed & it did not load up on us.

Plenty of power for what it was. The car ran 11.50's in the same exact form it is driven on the street...even with the baby seat in the back. I'll probably buy the same grind again when a 'new' motor goes together. I'm still disappointed the cam was damaged when the old short block signed off.
Posted By: NTOLERANCE

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 06:17 AM

Id really like to post some sarcastic comments about how people are always telling us not to use those heavy 6 pack rods and 2295 pistons, and how purple shafts are old antiquated technology, and blah blah blah....

But honestly I am just really glad to see someone using the old school tech and making it work.

Kudos....
Posted By: RemCharger

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 11:22 AM

sign of the times. Moons ago this was a high end build.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 01:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The 2295 piston has a 12 cc dome and with a 78 cc head should be way more than 11:1. Maybe more like 12:1




These did not have a 12 cc dome...it was actually a little less than 10.

...and this was far from a zero-deck.




I'm just going buy what the manufacturer says. Apparently you did a down fill. Certainly the devil is in the details. The 2295 will sit about 0.040 below a cleaned-up deck, which is what I used in my estimate. Could be 0.050-ish in an untouched block.
Posted By: buck440

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 03:10 PM

sounds alot like my current build except for i got stealth heads. what kinda power do you guy's think she will make with a 509 cam?
Posted By: mickm

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 06:19 PM

really impressive! i just did a build from scracth, and it was a bit more than $500!

but it is really cool to see this kind of power for so little cost!
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 06:25 PM

A 509 cam will make good power installed at 102 (no later than 104) depending on if you do some porting to the stealth's you could be from - 30 hp to maybe a few more with the 509.
Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/20/13 07:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The 2295 piston has a 12 cc dome and with a 78 cc head should be way more than 11:1. Maybe more like 12:1




These did not have a 12 cc dome...it was actually a little less than 10.

...and this was far from a zero-deck.




I'm just going buy what the manufacturer says. Apparently you did a down fill. Certainly the devil is in the details. The 2295 will sit about 0.040 below a cleaned-up deck, which is what I used in my estimate. Could be 0.050-ish in an untouched block.




If you do the math and assuming the pistons are .045-055 in the hole which is normal for a 2295 piston and even with a 12cc dome, 11 to 1 isn't far off. With a 1009 gasket,assuming .050 in the hole and 78cc head, I get 11.27 to 1.
Posted By: buck440

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 02:57 AM

Quote:

A 509 cam will make good power installed at 102 (no later than 104) depending on if you do some porting to the stealth's you could be from - 30 hp to maybe a few more with the 509.



my stealth's are ported. how does one go about the install at 102? ialso have a team g intake with dominator flange port matched plannin on runnin a 1050.carb that is lol.

Attached picture 7555095-093.JPG
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 03:13 AM

Quote:

Here is how it sounds in my wife's Barracuda. Sounds just like the old engine actually.

440 in the Barracuda


Car sounds mean! I love the budget idea a lot............good job. If I wasn`t an et chaser, I`d do a similar deal.
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 03:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A 509 cam will make good power installed at 102 (no later than 104) depending on if you do some porting to the stealth's you could be from - 30 hp to maybe a few more with the 509.



my stealth's are ported. how does one go about the install at 102? ialso have a team g intake with dominator flange port matched plannin on runnin a 1050.carb that is lol.




You have to get a cam degree wheel and degree the cam if you want to do it right, or you can just take your chances and get a multi keyway timing chain set and just install it at 6 degrees advanced, I believe the 509 has a 108 intake lobe centerline so 108-6 = 102.
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 04:00 PM

Quote:

Id really like to post some sarcastic comments about how people are always telling us not to use those heavy 6 pack rods and 2295 pistons, and how purple shafts are old antiquated technology, and blah blah blah....

But honestly I am just really glad to see someone using the old school tech and making it work.

Kudos....




My car has a LOT of old DC and MP stuff in it.It doesn't matter if the engine has old school parts or the "new and improved"..if it still runs what it's supposed to and the money at the track is the same,then why bother,especially if the stuff on the shelf is gathering dust.

to the OP..VERY nice build,and post how it does when you go to the track.Also look at the UltraDyne 308/613 cam...that cam flat WORKS!!
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 08:06 PM

Well degreeing the cam is a must!!

With ported stealths you will make as much or more than above and run on 91 octane if 10.5 and below.

The 509 if the 108 LSA is designed to be in at 106 but that is too late.

Now you must degree the cam as if the dowel pin in the cam, dowel hole in the top gear, keyway in the bottom gear and key in the crank are off and they are!!!!!!!!!! sometimes a lot. it will be a super dog if retared and they usually are so in at 103 (102 to 104) I would try for 102 from experience, it will be super hot!!

hope this all works well worth the $140 or so to buy your own kit if you don't know anyone to do it for you
If you buy this total kit has video and instructions
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4796/


another using @ .050 method think it's a ford by where number 1 is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azLX1pi2oVE&feature=related


plus these to read
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_how_to_degree_a_camshaft/

video. I like to do the @ .050 but often do both a little extra advance especially on street or heavy cars is a big plus! depending on the cam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VwsbEg7Z4I&feature=related


another one using .50 before and after max lift method (i do them all :-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=bcMuttJ9RFc&NR=1

some info! try not to get informatoin overload
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cambasics.htm


Generally in theory they are 0 + 4 and - 4 deg as always a cam should really be degreed in for best performance as they are all over the place with the stacking effect of the crank key, cam key/dowel, bottom gear Keyways and placement of dowel hole or keyway in top gear.

Hear is instructions for a comp cam 3 keyway set
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/cca-2100.pdf

I just did a 509 that was 7 deg retarded form spec in straight up position the + 4 postion got it withing .5 deg 106.5 on 106 suggested install it was a 4 speed 4.56 gear so runs great but on an auto i would have liked 102 to 104 for better bottom end.

Degreeing in you cam even if you buy a a kit the peformance is day and night when off a few degrees from optimum
kits
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66787/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4796/overview/

instructions
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/pro-66787_camshaftdegreewheelkit.pdf
Posted By: 67Satty

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 08:48 PM

Has anyone here ever tried the cam degree method where you use a straight edge, two 17mm deep sockets, and a feeler gauge? Just curious.
Posted By: cudadoug

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/21/13 10:53 PM

GREAT post! Love the low/no dollar stuff. Funny I just scored a 30K mile 360, balanced, decked, ported (235-ish cfm) **Correction: Cyl head guy says they went 245...we'll see!** 587-heads, airgap, 236 degree hyd cam from a buddy's brother for $500, less carb. I'll leak it, look at the bearings, touch up the VJ and re-flow the heads and plop in my Dart streeter. With a 10" converter and 3.91's I'm hoping to sneak a 11.90-something from it.

Same friend, several years ago: I gave him $400 for a domed piston, well built 383 shortblock (less cam) that had been 11.20's in his 3400 # car. I had a set of 452 heads laying around (260 @ .600") and another friend had a .613" Ultradyne cam laying around. So, this is what it cost me:

SB - $400

Heads - (IIRC, I had about $400 invested not including my time.)

Cam - Free

Lifters - $70

Pushrods - Free from the shortblock guy

Rockers/Springs - $100 (Isky iron and MP double springs, NIB)

M1 Intake $75 swap meet

1050 Dom $250 swap meet

Cobbled together Mopar lean burn dist - Free

MSD - Free that "didn't work". Sent it to MSD and they fixed it for $40!

Pro Parts headers - $150, plus sandblast time and paint

Converter - "J" $250

Trans - 727 Core, $150 for OH kit, MVB that I had in stock.

$200-300 in misc stuff...

All bolted in a 3000# caged, tubbed, A-Body roller bracket car that I paid $2500 (complete) for.

For just a tad over $4K it went 10.60's @ 125 through bullet muffs.

It was no show car, but I wish I kept it...even though I made a good profit when I sold it...LOL!
Posted By: XXX440

Re: 440 Dyno Results - My $500 Build - 01/22/13 07:29 AM

Very cool!!..same build in my 64,six pack rods,590 solid..pulls like a freight train now that I fixed some of the halfassed things done to it, and replaced the lapped out old carb that was on it when I traded for it!!
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