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Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics)

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:09 AM

Well, I think I've found the source of my vibration. Question now is: Where do I go from here? Some of you may remember, Motor developed a vibration after I had a converter baloon, and the flexplate bolts smacked the pan rail. Visually, I see no issues with the main webbing. Pics below are of the main bearing issue I've found. All the bearings look bad to me for a 3 year old, 5000 mile motor, probobly a result of the vibration that looks to be related to the #2 main, which is obviously fried, and it would appear that I shut 'er down just in time!

Weird thing is the bearing no longer fits in the saddle correctly. Both at the saddle and cap, the bearing will rock back & forth. When I pulled caps and the crank, all bearings stayed in place except #2. Cap half stayed with the crank when I lifted the cap, and saddle side did the same when I lifted the crank.

The mainline of this block was honed, and the crank was turned down from RB dia. to std. B dimensions (413 crank). bearings are cleavite P series. Motor always showed about 40 lbs of oil pressure at warm idle, and 60 while running from day one, and never changed a bit up until I tore it down.

My plan is to have the crank magged and checked out completely and see where that takes me.

Thoughts from you guys?????

Attached picture 7533356-P1070342.JPG
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:11 AM

Caps with bearings.

5 4 3 2 1



Attached picture 7533359-P1070339.JPG
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:13 AM

close-up of saddle bearing. You can see the gap between the bearing and saddle on the non-tang side. bearing dia. does not match saddle dia.

Attached picture 7533363-P1070343.JPG
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:17 AM

If you ask me and I don't know why. But you got a lack of oil to the mains all of them . what all has been done to the oil sys like oil holes-block off- top end oiling- . ? you might of had good oil pressure but not where needed.
Posted By: tubtar

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:30 AM

The rod bearing shown in pic #3 doesn't look too good either.......clearly a problem somewhere.
It looks like the oil was carrying around a fair amount of debris / crud too.
Check the crank for straightness while you are having it magged.
I'd pay some attention to the block too. Mag the saddles and eye ball everything closely.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:40 AM

You, not your machinest, should check the crank for straightness in a set of V blocks. My second thought is debris in the oil passages before engine start up, is the camshaft okay on all lobes Measure the actual lobe lift on all lobes, easier to do in a lathe The very first motor I put together after a minor overhaul did the same thing as yours looks, my camshaft went flat do to me being yuong and dumb, used lifters on a used cam BTW, I've done worst since then like breaking a rod in the lights on my original numbers matching block in my 1963 M.W. 415 HP stocker
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:41 AM

Measure your thrust bearing to see how much wear was done when the convertor thrust-ed forward. All that crap was floating around your oiling system probably taking out the bearings.
Posted By: MRMOPAR

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:56 AM

Looking at the #2 bearing in both the block and cap - I wonder if the bearing was mfg incorrectly. It would not appear to me to have enough crush to be retained correctly in the saddle/cap. Does another of your bearing - say #1 - have the same fit problem if placed in the #2 saddle?? If it also has the same fit problem - and - this block was honed - maybe that saddle was machined incorrectly. Also that much gap would cause a loss of oil pressure at the parting line.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 04:04 AM

No oiling mods have been done with this motor. Perhaps when I rebuild, I should limit oil to top end (???)

I bought the block from a private party already cleaned and bored, then I bought pistons to match the .040 overbore. It had new plugs in all the galley's already, so I didn't re-check the passages. looking back, I probably should have had the machinist re-clean it. I had my machinist hone it, deck it, and align hone the mains, along with doing the crank.

Visually, the cam looks okay from what I can see through the bottom. But, I haven't torn the top end apart yet.

EDIT:
The other bearings fit into the #2 saddle correctly. Its the bearing, not the saddle. I assembled the motor, and although I'm not a seasoned engine builder, I paid diligent attention to the details, and I'm positive all bearings fit well and consistent at assembly.

Posted By: 340SHORTY

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:00 AM

I would hope that the machinist cleaned the block after the decking, line boring and final honeing.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:03 AM

Quote:

looking back, I probably should have had the machinist re-clean it. I had my machinist hone it, deck it, and align hone the mains, along with doing the crank.




Wait a minute, do I understand this? Are you saying that there was no block cleaning after your machinist did the honing and decked the block?

There is a lot of junk in that motor.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:05 AM

Sorry to say this guys but the person doing the final assembly is responsible for the final block cleaning.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:15 AM

Quote:

No oiling mods have been done with this motor. Perhaps when I rebuild, I should limit oil to top end (???)

I bought the block from a private party already cleaned and bored, then I bought pistons to match the .040 overbore. It had new plugs in all the galley's already, so I didn't re-check the passages. looking back, I probably should have had the machinist re-clean it. I had my machinist hone it, deck it, and align hone the mains, along with doing the crank.

Visually, the cam looks okay from what I can see through the bottom. But, I haven't torn the top end apart yet.

EDIT:
The other bearings fit into the #2 saddle correctly. Its the bearing, not the saddle. I assembled the motor, and although I'm not a seasoned engine builder, I paid diligent attention to the details, and I'm positive all bearings fit well and consistent at assembly.



I've seen bearings loose thier crush due to debris, it makes heat, being forced in between the crankshaft and bearings Try slipping one of the other bearing shells into that location, top and bottom, if they are tight fitting, snug, it is the bearing shells that came out of there that lost there crush(preload), not the block or cap Do your self a favor now and buy a set of automotive long stem bottle brushes for cleaning out the oil galleys so you can clean them out your self I use a garden sprayer with cleaning solvent in a pump up garden sprayer to help clean all the motor before assembling it, especially after having machine work done get some stiff bristle brushes and clean, clean, clean and clean some more Engine assembly is like brain surgery, to me, it is impossible to keep it to clean
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:27 AM

Perhaps I miscommunicated what I meant. What I mean is that I don't believe he cleaned out the galleys. The block was clean when I picked it up, and I believe he cleaned it up after the machine work, but I don't believe he removed the galley plugs and brushed out the oil galleys. The plugs appeared to have new silicone around them when I bought the block, and it appeared that they were cleaned when the block was bored. I could be wrong about that, as I did not confirm the galleys to be clean. He very well could have done it as standard practice, but since he did not bore or assemble, I assumed he did only what I asked for. My bad, as I agree that I'm ultimately responsible.

I'll definately clean it out good, now!
Posted By: Kevins493

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 08:47 AM

Always, always, always..and I cannot stress this enough, always, remove plugs and clean out all oil passages before final assembly. It does not take much debris to cause a big mess. Get a good set of brushes and rod and flush out each passage. I like to do this twice per passage. Then use compressed air to dry. A white paper towel should stay white on all surfaces when you are done.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 09:11 AM

Live & Learn, I guess.....
Good news is that perhaps all I lost was a set of bearings and gaskets. Heck, almost sounds like a good trade for some worthwhile knowledge. And if the cause of this issue is in fact assembly "grit", I would consider that much better than what I feared.

I'm still leary of the crank, though. I'll have it magged and checked out and report back on what I find.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 03:56 PM

I've seen guys forget to polish the crank and just as important the oil holes will need to be de burred chews a lot of debris out in a hurry and bearings go bad form there.

then
I've seen guys nick the crank on the main studs as they drop it in? buddy did it once and the bearings started looked to like that after a short break in he found the debris in his oil filter check then pulled the pan had to pull his motor back out.

Around the same time A guy that works in my garage behind the house did the same thing! I found it after turning motor over a bit by hand and found my aluminum rods although clearing had next to 0 clearance when I pulled the rods low and behold the nicks where pulling debris off the bearings already and causing quite a mess and i had just been turning it by hand.
Anyways little file to take nicks off re polish crank new bearings and all was fine glad I found it before i ran it!
Next time I put plastic covers over main studs (crank girdle they are real long!)


Anyway I would have kicked his butt but hard to kick your own butt!

I'll bet it was one of the above and or the block prep.

Check and re polish the crank clean the block new bearings and I'll bet your just fine!
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 04:10 PM

That #2 main bearing lost it's form due to overheating probably from lack of oil judging from the photos.
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 04:52 PM

Quote:

A guy that works in my garage behind the house did the same thing!



Love it, that guy screws my stuff up sometimes also lol
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:21 PM

There's certainly a lot of trash in the bearings, but I think some of you are really overlooking the obvious cause of failure. Take a good close look at the wear pattern on those mains and think about it.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 05:30 PM

Quote:

That #2 main bearing lost it's form due to overheating probably from lack of oil judging from the photos.



Heat caused the bearings to loose the crush... it could
be the crank wasnt straight being that its the one
set... but there was dirt in there and it happened
on the first fire up
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 06:01 PM

What the experts above said, and don't forget to clean your rocker shafts out with the brushes too.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 06:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A guy that works in my garage behind the house did the same thing!



Love it, that guy screws my stuff up sometimes also lol





You know what I've learned from my mistakes???

It's that I maker lots of mistakes!
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 06:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A guy that works in my garage behind the house did the same thing!



Love it, that guy screws my stuff up sometimes also lol



I'm pretty sure thats the same guy that is responsible for this mess as well!
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/05/13 06:52 PM

Well we all learn from our mistakes. as a teenager my first motor I nick the crank. would not turn over ! and 20 years ago I did a motor and did't get the crank holes clean I thought the machinist clean it when he was done.never assume . end'ed up with the same mess.
Posted By: 340B5

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 01:31 AM

I still remember in the engine building class; the instructor said "clean it, and then clean it again and then when you're done, clean it again.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 01:41 AM

Quote:

There's certainly a lot of trash in the bearings, but I think some of you are really overlooking the obvious cause of failure. Take a good close look at the wear pattern on those mains and think about it.




Okay,

Boy , I see lots of stuff.

1. Lots of trash in the oil.
2. Uneven wear patterns.
3. Wear at the parting lines.
4. Heat build up burns from lack of oil.
5. Apparent crank contact on all bearings.

Those are the symptems that I see, so what do they mean.

My guess.

Combined issues,

trash in the oil
main bearing bores out of round
bearing clearences to tight
lack of oil flow at some point
maybe poor assembly with grit on back of bearings
any or all of the above
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 02:09 AM

I would just throw the crank back in the block < and run the snot outa it >... Just kidding... drop it back in and dial O the mains and see whats up
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 02:13 AM

Its hard to tell from the pics but I would measure for taper also...
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 02:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There's certainly a lot of trash in the bearings, but I think some of you are really overlooking the obvious cause of failure. Take a good close look at the wear pattern on those mains and think about it.




Okay,

Boy , I see lots of stuff.

1. Lots of trash in the oil.
2. Uneven wear patterns.
3. Wear at the parting lines.
4. Heat build up burns from lack of oil.
5. Apparent crank contact on all bearings.

Those are the symptems that I see, so what do they mean.

My guess.

Combined issues,

trash in the oil
main bearing bores out of round
bearing clearences to tight
lack of oil flow at some point
maybe poor assembly with grit on back of bearings
any or all of the above



Most everybody just assumes it's a lack of oil. It may or not be. Take a look at the wear pattern on the mains all the way up to the parting line. given that there's at least .003" of ecentricity built into the bearings, that tells me right away there was insufficiant oil clearance. A good portion of the trash may have very well come from the bearings. I'll say this also, when a machinist finishes working on your stuff, they typically clean the worst of the debris from it whether it be a block or a crankshaft or most anything else. They don't clean and prep it for final assembly unless you specifically ask them to do it. That type of cleaning generally comes with an additional charge. It's up to the person assembling the engine to make sure everything is spotless and ready to go.
When you see a bearing into the copper it was either starved for oil or had no oil clearance to start with. Since the rod bearings don't seem to be into the copper, my guess goes back to lack of oil clearance on the mains. It's pretty obvious the heat on that one bearing caused it to lose its temper and it wouldn't surprise me to see a slightly bent crank and signs of bluing as well.
The block needs to be closely inspected and probably align honed or bored again. (I prefer boring over honing)
Just because a block is align-honed and the crank was ground does not mean oil clearance is automatically okay, nothing could be further from the truth, actually.
I have teo engines in the shop right now that look alot like the OP's. One was built by a local machine shop with less than 5000 miles on it and the other by the owner with ZERO miles on it, just cam break in time.
My best advice would be to take nothing for granted when it comes time to put it back together. Enlist the help of a competant machinist to cage the bearings and measure, or at the very least, someone with the right tools and the experience necessary to do the job right. You can't have any engine part too clean, so when you think you got it spotless, clean it again.
Best of luck.
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 02:52 AM

Last time seen anything like that, I wore down couple lobes down on a cam??
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 02:58 AM

Thanks for all the help in understanding this, guys. I would maintain that if exessive crud got into the bearings, it came from inside the oil galleys, as I did not clean them upon assembly. I did, however make sure that all surfaces were clean, clean, clean. I may have missed something, but I am pretty confident about the cleanliness of my assembly (outside of the oil galleys). The main bearing clearances were measured at .0018 - .0022 with plastiguage. This jived with what the machinist told me he worked to, which was .002. I realize this is a little tight for a race motor, but well within specs for a street motor. It did spin freely by hand on the snout upon install.

In an effort to make sure I check every detail this time, I just purchased some tools online. I have a bore guage indicator, and a set of micrometers on the way. I already have a dial indicator with a magnetic base and a bridge base. I should be tooled up to check every detail this time.
Posted By: CHAPPER

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 03:01 AM

Look on the bright side,,at least nobody blamed the 440 Source parts!!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 03:13 AM

On bearing and piston to cylinder wall clearances, looser is always better than a little to tight I like and use .003+ on th rods and mains
Posted By: SuperStock68Dart

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 04:43 AM

Posted By: 383man

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 05:40 AM

Just glad to see you found it before it got worse and did any more damage. Ron
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 06:24 AM

Quote:

Just glad to see you found it before it got worse and did any more damage. Ron



Me too, Ron! I may be slow, but I'm learning. I'm very glad I heeded my own better judgement and tore into it when I felt something wasn't right.
Posted By: 383man

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/06/13 08:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just glad to see you found it before it got worse and did any more damage. Ron



Me too, Ron! I may be slow, but I'm learning. I'm very glad I heeded my own better judgement and tore into it when I felt something wasn't right.




It is also a good feeling when you find and repair your problems yourself. And its even more rewarding when its with a super fine Mopar like yours. Ron
Posted By: southernman

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/12/13 08:01 AM

67, sorry to hear about the bottom end failure, but after looking at the pictures you posted, I'd put my money on a bent crank. When the converter ballooned, driving the flex plate bolts into the back of the block, the shock load was transferred through the crank. Resizing the crank to fit the 400 block may have enabled such damage.

As I look at number 4 main (and yes, I realize unmodified oiling can show accelerated wear at this journal - but rarely after just 5K miles is assembled correctly, you can also detect excessive wear in the number 4 journal - relative to the rest. I'd be willing to bet it bent the crank. I don't see anything that suggests a problem with oiling. I think it's the byproduct of a catastrophic converter failure. Just my SWAG, and I may be wrong, but I'd sure like to know how it checks out.

Southernman
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/13/13 03:27 AM

The crank is going to the machine shop Monday where I'll specify it to be checked for straight and magnafluxed. If it checks out okay, I'll have it refinished and then re-assemble. If it has issues, I'll start from scratch, perhaps look at a "source" crank this time.
Posted By: radar

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/13/13 06:54 AM



Love a good whodunit without the guilt of seeing too much damage

Good luck
Posted By: SG duster

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/13/13 12:23 PM

Quote:

Measure your thrust bearing to see how much wear was done when the convertor thrust-ed forward. All that crap was floating around your oiling system probably taking out the bearings.

if you had a converter baloon check your trust face on your crank. I have a 4150 eagle here we had a converter baloon on. we have a .035 groove in it where the converter pushed the crank forward on the trust. about 1 hours use all up tops.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/13/13 06:44 PM

That much damage to the bearings and I wouldn't be surprised if the crank is going to need to be cut the the next undersize to get it back in spec.

Good luck
Posted By: jamesc

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/13/13 08:02 PM

with regards to engine cleanliness i remove everything that is not part of the casting, chase all threads, deburr any flashing/sharp edges as required. use a high pressure washer and galley brush set along with dish detergent for final wash. it's especially important to use the high pressure washer with a 0° tip for cleaning the water jackets if you're going to grout the block. you can also use acid though i've never personally done this. this is AFTER it has been hot tanked. i spend a LOT of time cleaning parts and when doing a block wear a raincoat and face shield because i really have at it with the pressure washer. there's always the potential for casting sand to be stuck in many places. i have tons of brushes of all sizes and lengths and also have two separate cleaning tanks both of which have filters on them.

my father made it simple to understand when he told me "you can't get an engine too clean"
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/16/13 06:44 AM

Got a call from the machinist today. Good news! The crank magged good and is straight and true. I'm having him polish the rod journals and do whatever is needed to clean up the mains. Looks like I escaped this without having to replace any "expensive" parts. Still more to come here, but I find myself pretty relieved right now!
Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Dodged a bullet; vibration found - not good (w/ pics) - 01/16/13 06:45 AM

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