Posted By: TrWaters
Engine Oil Cooler - 12/04/12 02:32 AM
Will oil drainback be a problem on start-up if the cooler is mounted in a location higher than the oil pan? 
Engine Oil Cooler
Posted By: dOoC
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/04/12 02:52 AM
VERY possible ... but a cooler on a drag car ?
Posted By: CHAPPER
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/04/12 03:25 AM
Quote:
VERY possible ... but a cooler on a drag car ?
Don't 
,,MAYBE you can play here awhile.!! 
Posted By: Lee446
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/04/12 03:51 AM
I have a thermostatically controlled cooler mounted behind the grill on my B-body Hemi. Same virtually instant pressure as before.
Posted By: TrWaters
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/04/12 10:15 PM
Not a dedicated drag car, and cooler will be mounted about valve cover height.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 01:43 AM
Quote:
VERY possible ... but a cooler on a drag car ?
What makes you think you need one??
Posted By: TrWaters
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 01:49 AM
Any answers to my actual question will be appreciated, which was not "do I need an oil cooler?".Will there be a drainback problem with using a high mounted oil cooler? Thanks.
Posted By: rickraw
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 02:39 AM
where is the to cooler line coming from?
Posted By: Lee446
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 03:01 AM
I thought I did !!??
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 03:25 AM
Quote:It really dpends on how you plumb it, if it is a BB and you are going to use a remote oil filter mount and use a T fitting to the cooler and another line back into the line going to the block the oil pump may stop any drain back, if not plumbing it that way you might want to install a anti drainback check valve
Will there be a drainback problem with using a high mounted oil cooler? Thanks.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 03:34 AM
Quote:Sorry. The answer to your question ( IMO )is "yes". I will add, although you didn't ask, if you are not running oil temps in excess of 250 degrees for long periods of time, you don't need an oil cooler - IMO.
Will there be a drainback problem with using a high mounted oil cooler? Thanks.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 04:52 AM
Oil coolers are usually mounted in front of the Rad... above oil pan height almost always. I don't see how "drainback" would be an (added) problem. The rest of the engine is above oil pan height also.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 04:11 PM
Quote:In my experience, they all drain back over time, check valves or not - including the factory installed units. It just amounts to a longer time before oil pressure comes up. Is that bad? Well, it aint good, and a poor trade off if you don't need to go there. Obviously, stock motors with lower compression and tighter clearances would suffer less than the other way around. My tow vehicle has one. Good application there, especially where I live - plus it doesn't sit for long periods of time between start ups. My race car ( with a filled block ) does not - and doesn't need one. If the OP KNOWS he is running outside (hotter) what his oil temp range should be, he needs one. Otherwise, he don't. IMO,in many cases they are installed unnecessarily. I was going to install one on my race car, but decided to install an oil temp gauge first, just to see where I was at. Good move on my part ( for a change
Oil coolers are usually mounted in front of the Rad... above oil pan height almost always. I don't see how "drainback" would be an (added) problem. The rest of the engine is above oil pan height also.
). I was well within the oil temp parameters for the oil I am using.
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 04:14 PM
I would do everything I could to prevent oil starvation on startup since that's where a ton of wear occurs.
Has anyone ever seen or used those devices that stores up some oil pressure, so that when you start the car, you can release that into the system for a shot of oil? I always wanted to use one of those.
Having said that, on any oil cooler, it's a great idea to use a thermostat. Same on a trans cooler (at least for street duty)
Has anyone ever seen or used those devices that stores up some oil pressure, so that when you start the car, you can release that into the system for a shot of oil? I always wanted to use one of those.
Having said that, on any oil cooler, it's a great idea to use a thermostat. Same on a trans cooler (at least for street duty)
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/05/12 04:23 PM
Put a trap in the line... have it go up higher so
it doesnt drain back as much... being that the filter
is on the pressure side of the system its either going
to drain back to the pump or towards the oil galley...
most(if not all) filters have a anti drain back valve
it doesnt drain back as much... being that the filter
is on the pressure side of the system its either going
to drain back to the pump or towards the oil galley...
most(if not all) filters have a anti drain back valve
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/11/12 06:55 PM
For what it's worth, the factory mopar oil coolers were mounted in front of the radiator, at about center-block level. They are fed from the upper oil gallery, and where it came out of the block, there's a factory mopar checkvalve for anti-drain back. As long as you do something like that, you're at least as good as factory.
If you want that part number, I can get it for you. can probably still find them. I'm sure they are around as typical race parts, too.
If you want that part number, I can get it for you. can probably still find them. I'm sure they are around as typical race parts, too.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/11/12 09:37 PM
Quote:
For what it's worth, the factory mopar oil coolers were mounted in front of the radiator, at about center-block level. They are fed from the upper oil gallery, and where it came out of the block, there's a factory mopar checkvalve for anti-drain back. As long as you do something like that, you're at least as good as factory.
If you want that part number, I can get it for you. can probably still find them. I'm sure they are around as typical race parts, too.
I think mopar did more than just that for the stock oil cooler package.
my stock oil cooler from the 88 cop car was set up this way. full pressure feed to the cooler from the oil sender hole on the SB and back to the hollow fuel pump bolt to oil t-chain and return oil to the pan.
had timed oiling to the rockers on #2 & #4 cam journal.
#1 cam bearing had full time oiling groove to #1 main bearing.
#1,2,3,4,5 main bearings were full groove for better supply to oil rod bearings. standerd volume oil pump.
no check valve on mine
, and I have found the bearings speced like this on at least 3 cop engines I have torn down. longevity was the goal on a stock oil cooler package.the anti drainback valve on the oil filter should hold most of the prime on the pump side.IMO.
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/11/12 10:29 PM
I'm looking at the check valve in the parts catalog for R/W body. Both big block and 360 uses it. The preceding page has H/F/N/G oil cooler w/ E58 small block engine, and you're right, no check valve. The implementation is basically the same except for that, fed via the upper gallery in the back, to a return in the fuel pump bolt.
If anyone wants it, the checkvalve PN is 2264514 (an old number).
A search comes up with this description: "Disc, oil pressure relief valve." At this point I'm wondering if it uses a stiff opening spring and closes off flow in the event of low pressure (to prevent starvation). Mine is around somewhere, I wish I could find it to take a look. I would love to know exactly what they were doing with it. I'd almost bet money it's just a simple check valve, but it's hard to find descriptions of minutiae like this
If anyone wants it, the checkvalve PN is 2264514 (an old number).
A search comes up with this description: "Disc, oil pressure relief valve." At this point I'm wondering if it uses a stiff opening spring and closes off flow in the event of low pressure (to prevent starvation). Mine is around somewhere, I wish I could find it to take a look. I would love to know exactly what they were doing with it. I'd almost bet money it's just a simple check valve, but it's hard to find descriptions of minutiae like this
Posted By: Big B
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/11/12 11:14 PM
I have been using a water oil cooler for the last 8 years. It's mounted in front of the radiator. Never a problem. With a Milodon HV oil pump my oil pressure is almost instant. I have a short filled block. Without a cooler my oil temp would hit 320.
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/12/12 03:19 PM
Welp, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And that's often!
The E58 on the Diplomat body does use the oil "check valve", it's just mounted on the cooler instead of at the back of the block like on the B body. I must have been really tired yesterday to miss that!
The E58 on the Diplomat body does use the oil "check valve", it's just mounted on the cooler instead of at the back of the block like on the B body. I must have been really tired yesterday to miss that!
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/12/12 03:42 PM
Quote:Interesting. I have a 3/4 filled block and I have never seen my oil temp over 215 ( on the street or round racing ). I'm sure road racing or oval track racing would be a different story - even towing. I was all set to put a cooler on. Glad I put an oil temp gauge on first. My oil manufacturer recomended running at 212 to 250 temps to boil off any moisture in the oil.
I have been using a water oil cooler for the last 8 years. It's mounted in front of the radiator. Never a problem. With a Milodon HV oil pump my oil pressure is almost instant. I have a short filled block. Without a cooler my oil temp would hit 320.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/12/12 04:48 PM
Quote:
Welp, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And that's often!
The E58 on the Diplomat body does use the oil "check valve", it's just mounted on the cooler instead of at the back of the block like on the B body. I must have been really tired yesterday to miss that!
I stand corrected as well. I just looked and confirmed that mine indeed has that check valve at the cooler.
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/12/12 05:28 PM
I've parted out cop diplomats, and I can recall looking at the oil cooler and thinking "what the hell is this thing on it?"
It's funny how sometimes it takes years to piece things together. now I know.
It's funny how sometimes it takes years to piece things together. now I know.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/12/12 05:49 PM
Quote:Maintained a whole fleet of Diplomat squads with those oil coolers on them in the early 80's ( all on E58 360 motors). Really no problems other than a few leaks here and there. I think they were designed by a plumber though
I've parted out cop diplomats, and I can recall looking at the oil cooler and thinking "what the hell is this thing on it?"
It's funny how sometimes it takes years to piece things together. now I know.
- not a lot of flow and lines everywhere. I believe the check valve was ball/spring type. No problem but the orifice was pretty small. Really don't think you want any part of one on your car - IMO. BTW, oil back then wasn't anywhere near as good ( regarding heat issues ) as it is today - albit lacking zinc. "Coked" up a few squad motors in the late 70's ( small block Fords ) that didn't have coolers on them. 
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/12/12 05:55 PM
You're right.
Although on a big block, I think the problem is the worst of all. There's a lot of residual heat in all that cast iron, and it takes a LONG time to cool down. So if you drive like a cop, and then immediately shut down, it just bakes. And like I said, with a bigger, heavier engine, the problem is worse.
My 78 cop car (400) wasn't too dirty when I took it down. I have a 77 cop car (also 400), that looked like the canadian oil sands under the valve-covers. Obviously that car was beat hard and probably never allowed to cool before shut down. Needless to say, they both had the factory oil coolers.
Turbocharged cars also have this problem, although the better ones will continue to pump oil after shut down - sometimes by means of a turbo timer.
That's also a good observation about the orifice size. If I'm not mistaken, the return hole through the fuel pump bolt is rather small, maybe a 1/16" or 3/32" by memory. It gets the job done for factory HP levels though, and something bigger would start to compromise pressure, I'm sure.
Personally I need to figure out something for my 500" stroker, and I'd like to keep it looking as stock as possible. I plan to route upper head oiling through the rear of the block to save main and cam oiling, so I will already be back there with plumbing. Also want a thermostatic control so it doesn't keep the oil too cool. An engineering challenge
Although on a big block, I think the problem is the worst of all. There's a lot of residual heat in all that cast iron, and it takes a LONG time to cool down. So if you drive like a cop, and then immediately shut down, it just bakes. And like I said, with a bigger, heavier engine, the problem is worse.
My 78 cop car (400) wasn't too dirty when I took it down. I have a 77 cop car (also 400), that looked like the canadian oil sands under the valve-covers. Obviously that car was beat hard and probably never allowed to cool before shut down. Needless to say, they both had the factory oil coolers.
Turbocharged cars also have this problem, although the better ones will continue to pump oil after shut down - sometimes by means of a turbo timer.
That's also a good observation about the orifice size. If I'm not mistaken, the return hole through the fuel pump bolt is rather small, maybe a 1/16" or 3/32" by memory. It gets the job done for factory HP levels though, and something bigger would start to compromise pressure, I'm sure.
Personally I need to figure out something for my 500" stroker, and I'd like to keep it looking as stock as possible. I plan to route upper head oiling through the rear of the block to save main and cam oiling, so I will already be back there with plumbing. Also want a thermostatic control so it doesn't keep the oil too cool. An engineering challenge
Posted By: mikesiron
Re: Engine Oil Cooler - 12/13/12 03:45 AM
I will say,I have been racing round track for over 12yrs with a remote oil filter mounted on the firewall above the valve covers. Without a drain back valve and have had no issues. When I start the engine I fast idle @ 2000rpm for one minute. High oil temp on round track engine's or any engine for that matter is because of low oil flow. Most racers use too heavy oil which will increase there oil preasure but decreases the flow to the bearings. Suction side of oil pump is way to small and to far away from the pump. Dont fool yourself when taking oil temp, if you are not taking it at the bottom of the pan were the sending unit is fully submerged at all times you are getting the wrong temp reading. If you have 30 psi oil preasure at idle when your oil is 215deg use a liter oil you will get more flow and better cooling.