Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need?

Posted By: AlexP

Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/18/12 10:55 PM

I'm trying to decide what suspension to complete out the rear of my car with.

I've currently got a set of really worn out HD springs on the back of my car that have settled to a near zero arch. I've also picked up a new set of XHD springs to replace them.

At the track I'll be running an ET Street DR or Conventional ET Street. At least a 10.5" tire.

The rest of the driveline will be a centerforce DF, 1350 DS and a 3.54 Powrlok Dana 60.

Will XHD leafs with the threaded style pinion snubber work for a 600rwhp car? Or are Cal-tracs needed? I've got Koni's and 1.24" torsion bars up front, so I really need to get to about 150/lb springs to get what I know is "matched".

I would like to imagine that well below a 2.0 60' could be done easily....

Posted By: Blusmbl

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/18/12 11:22 PM

I'm not an expert, but the Centerforce is a very grabby clutch and broke a ton of stuff in my Charger because I didn't know how to drive it easily. A lot of it was due to severe axle wrap, if I ever have another I would go the caltrac route for that reason alone. I don't know how well the caltracs would work with your new XHD springs though.

I've definitely heard from multiple sources, and experienced with my car, that stick cars do not like drag radials. You can get them to work, but they're very finicky, and with the rest of your setup (huge front T-bars, assuming stiff shocks, etc) I would go with conventional bias ply ET Streets for the track.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 12:02 AM

you should be able to pull 1.60's pretty easy w/ 600 rwhp. As mentioned 4 speeds are hard on parts. I'd think you could start w/ what you have and some drag shocks. I'm trying to get down to 1.55 and so far no luck. I might try and clamp the pass side spring next time out. I have XHD springs too w/ rear drag shocks and brand new MT radial Pros (275/60/15)
If I can't get it to 60 foot better I might try the cal-tracs. Right now I'm around 1.60-1.65

Posted By: mshred

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 02:00 AM

Quote:

I'm trying to decide what suspension to complete out the rear of my car with.

I've currently got a set of really worn out HD springs on the back of my car that have settled to a near zero arch. I've also picked up a new set of XHD springs to replace them.

At the track I'll be running an ET Street DR or Conventional ET Street. At least a 10.5" tire.

The rest of the driveline will be a centerforce DF, 1350 DS and a 3.54 Powrlok Dana 60.

Will XHD leafs with the threaded style pinion snubber work for a 600rwhp car? Or are Cal-tracs needed? I've got Koni's and 1.24" torsion bars up front, so I really need to get to about 150/lb springs to get what I know is "matched".

I would like to imagine that well below a 2.0 60' could be done easily....

Not sure how your planning on driving the car off the line, but my first year with a 5 speed and slow mid 13 second car I had a pinion snubber (adjusted properly) and leaf springs with an extra leaf added to stiffen them up (very arched) and adjustable shocks and the car hopped like a lowrider on the launch dumping the clutch at around 3500-4000rpms...I can't imagine things getting any better with added power, and to be honest if super stock springs don't work (and im kinda thinking they won't) caltracs really are your best option. I'd get rid of those XHD's for a set of the calvert mono's and either look into caltrac bars or the smith racecraft assassin bars and good rear shocks. You will need good shocks and a good traction system to control the hit with the stick if you plan on leaving with any kind of power or aggressiveness (i.e. not riding out the clutch)

As for tires, you won't hook worth a damn with drag radials and a stick...I know from experience with this, even on slower cars, radials just don't like the dump of the clutch and tend to be very inconsistent. Use the conventional ET streets. Also, you don't seem to be short for power, but that is not enough gear to maximize the potential of the car (atleast in my opinion). I know you are building a hemi, but the powerband of the motor will dictate the gearing. Sticks like a higher numerical ratio, but you might be ok with what you have. Best is to try it and see- 60's might suck and it may not trap where you want, so a ratio change may be in order.

I have had good luck leaving at 5000rpms off a two step with a CF DF clutch, and I know of a couple of mustangs here running high tens with the same clutch at 3100-3200lbs race weight. They are a good clutch for what they are. I would try it and see how it works, although you may need an adjustable clutch.

I would take it out and see what it does. Make a pass, if things get out of line, stop before you break anything and then address the problems. Im no expert, but I ran the stick for the past three years at varying power levels (never at yours though) so I have learned a few things about what works and what doesn't.

Good luck man!

Posted By: 68shifter

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 03:11 AM

Are you going to be 100% strip car or just occasionally?

If your springs are completely shot I would replace them and clamp em. Also pick up a decent set of shocks with a decent stiff extension capability(Calvert 9 way, or other brands). Store more shock for extension than bump.

As Matt said don't waste your time with radials. Sidewalls are inconsistent and just a variable you can't control.

Try and get the front as loose and quick responding as possible with 4-5" of movement.

A CF DF clutch will be tight but a lot of people do use them with success. That motor will probably have a good amount of torque to help with the gearing though not ideal.

On the cal-tracs... Wouldn't spend my money. In my old setup with SS springs went 1.45-1.47 normally, added caltrac bars to the springs-very aggressive launch and no 60 or et change. Then changed over to the full caltrac setup, no change again, but was able to lower the back of the car. I eventually sold them.

Once you start making some passes let us know...I'll send your man card out right away

Andre

Posted By: oldiron

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 03:12 AM

I think with the weight/power/and HP I kinda think that you don't want it to hook too much. Something has to slip or something will likely break. If the car is mainly drag race, then I would suggest getting smaller diameter torsion bars and get the front end loose (something I was not too successful in the belvedere). The drag radials tend to be binary (hook or slip with nothing in between). MT suggests that they NOT be used with stick cars. Also, 4.10 or 4.56 rear gears would take load off of the trans/clutch. The CF DF is a great clutch, but you do have to build in slip somewhere or you will likely smoke the clutch. I never tried SS springs/snubber and had used caltracs with XHD rear springs. In less than a season they become S shaped. The stock springs are much thicker than the monoleafs which affects the function of the caltracs. Also, if I recall the XHD springs have 6 leafs on the right side and 5 on the left (i.e. different thickness). This would make the caltracs act differently on each side.

If its mainly a street car to race every now and then, set it up for how you want it on the street, and then either add air to the slicks for slip or learn to slip the clutch some coming out. You can also be consistent with a 'controlled bog', just not as fast as it could be.
Good luck
It is fun

Posted By: sshemi

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 07:21 AM

What tranny ratios?

I dont know about the xhd springs but my -68 abody v8 leafs cant take the hit even clamped.
My car got almost no paint left in the driveshaft tunnel.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 07:25 AM

Bare minimum run a snubber or things will grenade.

Posted By: JERICOGTX

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 08:20 AM

Quote:

Once you start making some passes let us know...I'll send your man card out right away

Andre

Attached picture 7427003-July%2028th%20sat_%20races%20319.jpg

Posted By: sshemi

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 10:34 AM

I have decided to go with caltracs on mine but i dont know if i need their single leaf springs.
And now i am in the process of building a 833 with 3.09 first gear witch i think will help alot with the 60' compared to the 2.66 first.
I have 3.73 gears.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 01:33 PM

not to hi-Jack this post but what is the best way to clamp the rear springs??? I have a clamp kit somewhere and like to try it.

Posted By: fasthawk6

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 09:53 PM

I have the caltracs with new hd springs and will go a 1.60 60ft time.I have tried the mickey drag radials not with great results. Switched to the et streets and much better 27 10.50s.The caltracs really help with axle wrap.If i was to do it over i would.
Move the springs in 3/4 which i already did
make the rear shocks straight up in down which help control the rear of the car better.
Went to the big radial race in georgia and saw a neat setup for leaf springs. It used a front segment with the caltrac bar and a coilover setup to hold the rear of the car up, Seemed like that was the hot ticket.

Attached picture 7427654-Picture028.jpg

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/19/12 11:49 PM

I have had just about every combo posted above and my current combo seems to work best with the 3800# SS springs,NO SNUBBER,Rancho 9 way adjustable shocks.
It hooks with slicks and slips with MT ET streets.I used Caltracs with mono-leafs and they worked very well but the springs wore out in one season of street/strip use.
I turn a 1.49 short time the my current shock/spring package

Gus

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/20/12 12:33 AM

I too have tried most of the combos listed. My current set up has "A" body SS springs(002-003). I run Rancho 9 ways set on 9. NO SNUBBER. I also run the Centerforce "11" clutch assembly. A833 18 spline. From personal experience, SOMETHING has to slip, unless you plan on breaking parts. My car is set up to slip the slicks about 10 feet at launch. Radials with a stick car don't work. I run Hoosers (29" x12"). My 60' times are around 1.54-1.60, depending on track conditions, but my car is a street car that I take to the track sometimes. It's not an all out race car. Also, my car weighs 3726 without me in it. With my 200+ pounds, it's a load to get moving. My rear gears are 4.56 Dana's. Hope this helps you get pointed in the right direction.

Posted By: mloboda

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/20/12 01:45 AM

Larry, are using that new 19 spline 833 that Passon just came out with ?

Posted By: sshemi

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/20/12 08:08 AM

So you two are saying that ss springs is the way to go?
Thats like opposite of everyone else.
Doesnt the ss springs have bad quality nowadays?

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/20/12 04:03 PM

Quote:

Larry, are using that new 19 spline 833 that Passon just came out with ?

No Mike, I use a stock 18 spline "HEMI" trans. I had "fat fingers" and hit a "9" instead of an "8" and I didn't check my post for correctness. Sorry.

Quote:

So you two are saying that ss springs is the way to go?
Thats like opposite of everyone else.
Doesnt the ss springs have bad quality nowadays?

All I'm saying is "I" use SS springs and have for over 30 years. The springs that are on the car now are over 15 years old and they still have a slight arch to them. What "I" do over the winter months each and every year, is jack the car up and let the suspension "hang" over the winter. Torsion bars and rear springs both. I believe that this adds life to the bars and springs.

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/20/12 04:14 PM

Quote:

So you two are saying that ss springs is the way to go?
Thats like opposite of everyone else.
Doesnt the ss springs have bad quality nowadays?

Probably not the "ultimate" drag only suspension but it does work for a street car that I like to race about a half dozen times a year.
If I were racing my car every weekend I would put the Cal-Tracs and mono-leafs back on again.I drive my car fully loaded with with camping gear food for the weekend and the full race rear suspension just wasn't cutting it for a dual purpose car.That being said my suspension works perfect on the track as well with adjustable shocks

Gus

Posted By: sshemi

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/21/12 12:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So you two are saying that ss springs is the way to go?
Thats like opposite of everyone else.
Doesnt the ss springs have bad quality nowadays?

Probably not the "ultimate" drag only suspension but it does work for a street car that I like to race about a half dozen times a year.
If I were racing my car every weekend I would put the Cal-Tracs and mono-leafs back on again.I drive my car fully loaded with with camping gear food for the weekend and the full race rear suspension just wasn't cutting it for a dual purpose car.That being said my suspension works perfect on the track as well with adjustable shocks
Gus

Thats exatly like mine, i drive to the track with all the gear in the trunk, but i dont like how high they seem to sit in the rear with ss springs.
But i dont feel like replacing caltracs springs each year either.

Any other suggestions before i buy anything i dont need or like?
Sorry to highjack...

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/21/12 02:18 PM

Quote:

Thats exatly like mine, i drive to the track with all the gear in the trunk, but i dont like how high they seem to sit in the rear with ss springs.
But i dont feel like replacing caltracs springs each year either.

Any other suggestions before i buy anything i dont need or like?
Sorry to highjack...

Try one inch SOLID lower blocks. That's what I use. But don't use the hollow cast type. They will crack in half.
The picture of my car in my sig is how my car sits normally.

Posted By: sshemi

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/21/12 03:18 PM

How do they feel on the street?
Also witch ones should i use at 3800lbs at the starting line?

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/21/12 10:28 PM

Quote:

How do they feel on the street?
Also witch ones should i use at 3800lbs at the starting line?

My car rides nice on the street. When I race I set my Rancho's on the "9" setting. On the street I set them on 2 or 3 to soften the ride a bit.
No sure what to tell you or suggest with your second question. The 002 & 003 springs are rated at 3000#-3200#. They lift the back end of my car up about 2". That's why I use the lowering blocks.
3800# HD springs actually drop the back end down. My friend uses them on his "65 "B" body.
Personal preference, I guess.

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/21/12 10:38 PM

I have 3800# springs on mine and it sits nice I think,here's a pic in street trim

Gus

Attached picture 7430046-greggspicofmycar.JPG

Posted By: 5126brl No more

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/22/12 01:23 AM

Quote:

I too have tried most of the combos listed. My current set up has "A" body SS springs(002-003). I run Rancho 9 ways set on 9. NO SNUBBER. I also run the Centerforce "11" clutch assembly. A833 18 spline. From personal experience, SOMETHING has to slip, unless you plan on breaking parts. My car is set up to slip the slicks about 10 feet at launch. Radials with a stick car don't work. I run Hoosers (29" x12"). My 60' times are around 1.54-1.60, depending on track conditions, but my car is a street car that I take to the track sometimes. It's not an all out race car. Also, my car weighs 3726 without me in it. With my 200+ pounds, it's a load to get moving. My rear gears are 4.56 Dana's. Hope this helps you get pointed in the right direction.

Must say I love the look of this car

What rpm do you leave at and what is the Rpm at the stripe?

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/22/12 04:26 AM

My car isn't really that much of a serious racer.

I have to make accommodations to keep it streetable. The 3.54's have to stay because I can't afford overdrive at the moment. I'd like to drive it 50 miles a day to work when the weather is nice, have stupid power on the street(easy 600rwhp on low boost and up to 800rwhp on high boost) and not break much along the way.

The controlled bog idea sounds to be the best thus far. I don't have a problem running ET Streets at the track and my radials whenever I'm driving around. I want to keep my ride height low, so the superstock springs are out of the question. I'm already running 2" lowering blocks to keep the stock springs where I want them. I'll have to work to keep the XHD springs where I want them for sure. I'm going to keep the Koni's.

Whatever it does with the components listed above, it does. I just have to hope it's about 1.60-1.70 to make me feel like its not all in vain.

This post has taught me a lot

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/22/12 06:56 PM

Quote:

Must say I love the look of this car
What rpm do you leave at and what is the Rpm at the stripe?

Thanks. I leave anywhere from 4600 -5600. Last week at T&T I was leaving at 4600 and pulling 1.54 short times. I have my shift lite set at 6000. I trap at around 6400.

Quote:

I have 3800# springs on mine and it sits nice I think,here's a pic in street trim

I like the way yours sits, Gus. I actually have two friends that run the 3800hp springs and they both set way lower than mine does.

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: Hooking a 4 speed car...what do I need? - 10/22/12 07:02 PM

Quote:

I'm trying to decide what suspension to complete out the rear of my car with.

Some thing that I just remembered about the rear suspension and a stick car. No matter which spring you end up using, try to get the front spring segment as close to parallel to the ground as possible.