Moparts

Spark Advance Curve

Posted By: bronco9588

Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 01:53 PM

Hi Everybody,

I just purchased a 6al-2 programmable MSD box and I can control the spark advance electronically throughout the spark advance curve. The problem is... I have no idea what the spark advance curve should look like and general tuning tips for advancing or retarding the curve. Thanks for your help. 400 chrysler stock with 346 heads.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 02:36 PM

You're in over your head for what should be a very basic setup for a stock engine. Send the MSD box back for a refund and contact Don Gould at FBO Systems (4secondsflat.com) about having him set up a good ignition system for your car.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 04:08 PM

Ya, you got more ignition system than you need. That being said, and assuming you are running a stock convertor and a mid 3 series gear, This would put you in the curve ball park: In crankshaft degrees, mechanical curve should start around 1000 rpm and be all in around 2800 - 3000 rpm. Total mechanical in the distributor ( distributor degrees )should be 12 - 13 degrees. Your vacuum advance ( and you should run one ) should be around 16 crankshaft degrees. Soooo, if you were to run an initial timing setting of 12 degrees, you would be running a total of 36 - 38 degrees at 3000 rpm under full throttle ( excluding the vacuum advance ). At part throttle or cruise, you would be dumping in an additional 16 degrees of vacuum advance. A Mopar "kit" with the orange spark control box would work just fine in your application and probably be pretty close to what I discribed right out of the box.
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 05:01 PM

Quote:

You're in over your head for what should be a very basic setup for a stock engine. Send the MSD box back for a refund and contact Don Gould at FBO Systems (4secondsflat.com) about having him set up a good ignition system for your car.




Thanks dude... Like I want or need to spend more money on an ignition system. I understand what I want, but have no idea what curve the stock ignition system uses.

To explain. I have a 400 and am planning on swapping out to a modified 440. I like the rev limiters, boost curve (supercharger), and nos capabilities of the 6530. I understand it is overkill for the stock 400, but it should work none the less. I want to get comfortable with this ignition on the 400 and step up to the 440 in due time. I like the flexibility the box gives me, and am willing to spend the time to get it to work. I purchased it for the 440 with no intention of running it on the 400, but current ignition problems have me looking to this box for an intermediate fix.

Thanks for your NOT requested advertisement and NOT useful timing specifications. What maybe is over YOUR head in technology is not over someone else's head.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 05:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You're in over your head for what should be a very basic setup for a stock engine. Send the MSD box back for a refund and contact Don Gould at FBO Systems (4secondsflat.com) about having him set up a good ignition system for your car.




Thanks dude... Like I want or need to spend more money on an ignition system. I understand what I want, but have no idea what curve the stock ignition system uses.

To explain. I have a 400 and am planning on swapping out to a modified 440. I like the rev limiters, boost curve (supercharger), and nos capabilities of the 6530. I understand it is overkill for the stock 400, but it should work none the less. I want to get comfortable with this ignition on the 400 and step up to the 440 in due time. I like the flexibility the box gives me, and am willing to spend the time to get it to work. I purchased it for the 440 with no intention of running it on the 400, but current ignition problems have me looking to this box for an intermediate fix.

Thanks for your NOT requested advertisement and NOT useful timing specifications. What maybe is over YOUR head in technology is not over someone else's head.


Not answering for BradH, but what you bought will work just fine. Just a lot of $ for your existing set up. When you decide to upgrade to a more performance set up, then you will be better able to justify the $. If you can dial in my suggested settings, you will be in the ball park for your existing stuff.
Posted By: fbernard

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 05:53 PM

Technically, this ignition is designed to be used with a locked-out distributor, and a MAP Sensor for vacuum advance (instructions suggest the MAP Sensor PN 23111 for N/A engines).

This means :
- you should determine optimal initial advance setting using this method for example.
- you should lock the timing on the distributor (how depends on your distributor type).
- you should decide where on the RPM curve you want the total advance all-in. If that was a drag car, I'd say a few hundred RPMS after your convertor stall speed, but for a street converter, that would be too low. Somewhere around 3000 RPM would be a good start. Max advance for a BB is usually 38°.
- Now you have the initial timing value, and the final "mechanical" advance RPM level, you can set a straight curve for a start.
I see no reason for further tweaking for your current engine, you may need that for the next mill.
You could change the end of the curve so that there's an advance decrease in the high RPM zone, but the rev limiter takes care of that.
You may change the start of the curve for easier starts (like having almost no advance at 0 RPM and ramping up to whatever the initial timing is around 700 RPM but your 400 will likely not need much in that area)

You don't absolutely need the MAP sensor for a start, but it's useful if you car sees some road miles.
The original Mopar documentation for the electronic ignition conversion says total ignition advance can be up to 56° for a BB, that's around 18° of vacuum advance, so you'd want something like that at the maximum vacuum your engine pulls when cruising (you'll need to know how much vacuum your engine pulls cruising at 3000 RPM, get a vacuum gauge with a long tube so you can take it for a ride).

If you use the 6530 and a distributor with a functional mechanical advance, the programmed curve should be flat, since the box won't be managing the advance curve. Using a "normal" advance curve with a non-locked-out dist will produce detonation!!

I don't know if you can lock the dist for mechanical advance and retain the vacuum advance (this would be easier than installing the MAP sensor).
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 06:55 PM

1) I have an eddy 1406, so I have a MAP vacuum port. It would look butt ugly, but I could take some tubing and a pair of hose clamps and get Vacuum advance capabilities. I kinda like that idea actually.

2) For Starts, I could wire in the boost retard. Once I get that all ironed out... I could tie that in with the starter relay.
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 07:12 PM

Okay... so I think I almost have it figured out.

1) Anyways, what is the easiest "start up" ignition timing? Anything I am looking or listening for here?


2) Can you go more into depth on Vac advance? Do you have a link for that?

More Vac = Less Load = More Advance? or did I get that flipped around?
Posted By: BradH

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 09:24 PM

Quote:

Thanks for your NOT requested advertisement and NOT useful timing specifications. What maybe is over YOUR head in technology is not over someone else's head.



You're welcome. And I haven't seen anything in your replies since that makes me re-think my original suggestion. Example:

Quote:

Can you go more into depth on Vac advance? Do you have a link for that?

More Vac = Less Load = More Advance? or did I get that flipped around?



You're such a smart guy, I'm sure you can figure out 50-year old ignition technology without having to ask questions here.
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/22/12 10:59 PM

...again, NOT very helpful. Not trying to flame, but what one person intends with their car is very different than what you would intend with yours. I am aware of a cheaper solution, but have different plans. Furthermore, ATFQ... this thread has nothing to do with what type of ignition I should buy. It has everything to do with ignition timing. I'm sure that 50 year old tech isn't above your head but I am admitting it is mine.
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 12:54 AM

Quote:

The advance setting which gives the best vacuum (checked with a timing light) is the ideal initial timing you should be using. Write it down. Depending on your camshaft, compression, etc., it could be rather high.




So the car likes about 20 degrees timing. I watch the vacuum indicator and it seems to enjoy many many degrees. If I go one over, chug chug chug. Not really a bell curve on manifold pressure. Is this most likely an aftermarket cam?


Quote:

A part-throttle drive uphill or a WOT pass should be made confirm that there's no pinging. In case of pinging, back off 2° and retry.




Deciding this may have been the issue, I cut back the timing about 3 degrees. Everything seems great.

I still plan to wire up the MSD to get comfortable with the box.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 01:29 AM

You really need to put it on a chassis dyno and run
as much advance as possible without any pinging...
that way you can watch a vac gauge and listen and then
do a plug check... along with a A/F meter
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 01:56 AM

you do a plug check even with a lambda sensor?
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 01:59 AM

Quote:

I'm sure that 50 year old tech isn't above your head but I am admitting it is mine.


Not very helpfull, as we already know that.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 02:06 AM

Quote:

you do a plug check even with a lambda sensor?




I do... who's to say the gauge is correct and not
showing something dumb... you want to burn up a
engine for 5 minutes worth of work.... timing also
shows up on the plug(I cant say about the cruise though)
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 02:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm sure that 50 year old tech isn't above your head but I am admitting it is mine.


Not very helpfull, as we already know that.




Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 03:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

you do a plug check even with a lambda sensor?




I do... who's to say the gauge is correct and not
showing something dumb... you want to burn up a
engine for 5 minutes worth of work.... timing also
shows up on the plug(I cant say about the cruise though)





Any changes to spark timing when using higher octane fuels such as e85?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 03:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you do a plug check even with a lambda sensor?




I do... who's to say the gauge is correct and not
showing something dumb... you want to burn up a
engine for 5 minutes worth of work.... timing also
shows up on the plug(I cant say about the cruise though)





Any changes to spark timing when using higher octane fuels such as e85?




It should still read the same on the strap
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 04:02 AM

Quote:

you do a plug check even with a lambda sensor?


Just a gauge to get you close but I must say that before the wide-band my street tune was way off from my clean crisp fined tuned best et tune up. Can`t help you on your ign. box.........I just run a basic 10+ year old 6-A MSD not even a rev limiter because of the reasons you started the post. Definately not a plug n play deal.........good luck.
Posted By: bronco9588

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 04:16 AM

Quote:



It should still read the same on the strap





Not really familiar with "strap"

Quote:

I just run a basic 10+ year old 6-A MSD not even a rev limiter because of the reasons you started the post. Definately not a plug n play deal.........good luck.




The 6AL-2 Programmable is entirely a different beast than the other 6 boxes.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 04:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:



It should still read the same on the strap





Not really familiar with "strap"

Quote:

I just run a basic 10+ year old 6-A MSD not even a rev limiter because of the reasons you started the post. Definately not a plug n play deal.........good luck.




The 6AL-2 Programmable is entirely a different beast than the other 6 boxes.


I know, that`s why my dumb ass doesn`t run one....
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 04:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:



It should still read the same on the strap





Not really familiar with "strap"

Quote:

I just run a basic 10+ year old 6-A MSD not even a rev limiter because of the reasons you started the post. Definately not a plug n play deal.........good luck.




The 6AL-2 Programmable is entirely a different beast than the other 6 boxes.




Ground strap
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/23/12 05:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'm sure that 50 year old tech isn't above your head but I am admitting it is mine.


Not very helpfull, as we already know that.







50 year old tech should not be over your head to be asking the questions that you are asking. You need to have a basic understanding and then the rest ( including answers to your questions ) will come much easier. Weather you are dealing with a mechanical 50 year old ignition system or a sophisticated fulley electronic computor controlled system,the end results will be close to the same as far as spark advance is concerned - during specific situations ( Idle, cruise, WOT, etc. ) The latter should be able to do it with mich more precision of course.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/24/12 05:25 PM

Here's a "no 'tude" response to the OP's post:
- A stock 400 is low compression and may tolerate up to about 20 degrees initial timing, but verifying the hot-start behavior will be important to determine how much it'll accept and still start w/o hard cranking
- Total timing considering the low compression and open chamber design is probably limited to somewhere in the 34-36 degree range; California-spec pump fuel is an even lower octane than most of the country (my local pump swill is 93-octane w/ 10% ethanol blended) and that'll probably cap the max advance at 32-34
- Depending upon gearing & converter stall speed, the advance curve should probably start around 1200-1400 RPM and reach full advance out about 3000 RPM
- Vacuum advance should be limited to 8-10 degrees to play it safe; one responder above suggested as much as 16 degrees, but that much will likely cause pre-ignition issues under high-vacuum cruise conditions
- Carb & ignition tuning are tightly related, especially since big changes in the initial timing curve can result in significant idle speed changes and require associated mixture adjustments

The programmable box is a cool unit, but it seems like major overkill for the current application.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/25/12 04:24 AM

Quote:

Here's a "no 'tude" response to the OP's post:
- A stock 400 is low compression and may tolerate up to about 20 degrees initial timing, but verifying the hot-start behavior will be important to determine how much it'll accept and still start w/o hard cranking
- Total timing considering the low compression and open chamber design is probably limited to somewhere in the 34-36 degree range; California-spec pump fuel is an even lower octane than most of the country (my local pump swill is 93-octane w/ 10% ethanol blended) and that'll probably cap the max advance at 32-34
- Depending upon gearing & converter stall speed, the advance curve should probably start around 1200-1400 RPM and reach full advance out about 3000 RPM
- Vacuum advance should be limited to 8-10 degrees to play it safe; one responder above suggested as much as 16 degrees, but that much will likely cause pre-ignition issues under high-vacuum cruise conditions
- Carb & ignition tuning are tightly related, especially since big changes in the initial timing curve can result in significant idle speed changes and require associated mixture adjustments

The programmable box is a cool unit, but it seems like major overkill for the current application.


I suggested a vacuum advance of 16 degrees. I also suggested an initial of 12, not 20 degrees. I ran my suggested numbers in a low compression 400 in a 78 Newyorker ( a real heavyweight ) with no problems. Honestly, you have a lot of latitude with that motor, no matter what gas you use. Ran my Newyorker back and fourth from the midwest to the coast several times on regular. No problems.

Attached picture 7349494-IMG_0404_9_2.jpg
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/25/12 04:53 AM

and why would you want to run anything close to 20 degrees initial - unless he is running a very big cam and has vacuum issues. With that much initial ( even if the engine could tolorate it )you are just asking for hot start problems.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Spark Advance Curve - 08/25/12 05:46 AM

Quote:

and why would you want to run anything close to 20 degrees initial - unless he is running a very big cam and has vacuum issues. With that much initial ( even if the engine could tolorate it )you are just asking for hot start problems.


16 to 18 degrees initial no problems on my low compression pump gas motor, it doesn't like 20 degrees initial, especially when hot
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