Moparts

Another Whats the HP(UPDATE)

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Another Whats the HP(UPDATE) - 08/14/12 01:45 AM

I'm dropping my engine off tomorrow to be set up on
the dyno... should be running on Wednesday
418 ci
.040 over 340
4" stroke
Eagle H-beam rods 6.125"(chevy ends)
Diamond pistons W/22 cc dish
1/16, 1/16/ 3/16 rings standard oil ring
10.9 compression
.039 Felpro head gaskets
W-5 heads ported
flow 310 @ .700
cam is MP solid roller
105 LSA installed at 103
260/270 at .050
.640/.640 lift
TD rockers 1.5
M-1 large port intake match ported to the heads
gonna run 2 different carbs
850 dp and a 1050 dom with adapter
custom 1 7/8" straight headers 3.5 collectors
custom 8 qt oil pan with remote filter
this will run pump gas... on the dyno
will run 93 octane
this is mainly stuff I had in the shop
so its not perfect... the only thing I
had to buy was pistons and rings

so take a guess... I have a HP I'm shooting
for.. I'll see if it makes it
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 01:57 AM

With the 850.... 590@6600... 1050.... 605@6700... torque 565@5100... do I get something if i am right
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 01:58 AM

my ball tell me 604 hp good luck
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 03:38 AM

My guess is like above 601 Hp and 558 TQ
Good luck!
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 03:43 AM

I suck at this but here goes;
580-590 hp
540-550 tq w/the 1050.....................
Posted By: Ian

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 03:46 AM

610 and 622 with dom
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 01:55 PM

I am not good at guessing these things..But I can wish you good luck,Mike!!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 02:00 PM

Thanks guys... all I'm hoping for is about 550-560 HP...
that is really all I need to run 10.0 - 10.2.... that
way I wont have to de-tune it if I'm close on the weight
of the Rampage
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 02:06 PM

you have more head flow then me, more and more duration then me - so if your mot making 600+ you're doing something wrong.

What are you doing for the crankcase? evac? vac pump? breathers? I saw nice gains going up that ladder.


I've got about the same compression ( 10.50 :1) and the most power was made with a 1000HP holley at 65-6600 rpm.

regardless of cam, intake or head I made 560 - 566 tq but I am running a longer stroke - @ 4.125
I also probably have a lighter bobweight, but I am really not sure if that would show up - @ 1749 grams
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 03:35 PM

My "uneducated" guess is 580-590 hp. Torque..not sure! I can't wait to see what my junk 440 will make on the St. Clair dyno!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 04:44 PM

Well its over at the dyno.... will be running tomorrow
Posted By: Dartin

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 05:08 PM

I'll take a stab at it with right at 600 with the Dom. Good luck! Take some video if you can!

Randy
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 05:50 PM

Quote:

I'll take a stab at it with right at 600 with the Dom. Good luck! Take some video if you can!

Randy



Good point... I'll take my video camera..... if the
1050 proves to make good power I'll pull the intake
and machine it to fit the dom but I'm hoping the 850
will be close to right... that way it would be a bit
friendly on MPG on the street.. but I've machined
intakes before to fit a dom....... Randy did you think
that their dyno was a fair dyno when it came to the numbers
(I forget what yours made on it).... I dont need
some BS numbers... just a fair number that I can
figure if my chassis is working right
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 06:55 PM

My old w5 motor was very similar to yours exept 12,5 comp and just a hair more cam made close to 650 hp on e85 and a 950 carb that was too rich.
Posted By: EvilB1Dart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 08:55 PM

Raff,

615 HP / 545 TQ w/850

Wes
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 09:00 PM

"I don't need some BS numbers...just a fair number that I can figure if my chassis is working right." I agree 100%! I'd much rather have a "stingy" dyno,with a little lower numbers...than a "Happy" one that isn't even close to the TRUE power level! That would only bring on a major disappointment when the car gets to the track! If I get a TRUE 600 horsepower out of my modified 440,I'll be a "Happy Camper"! Anyone know what it takes to hit 10.8-10.9 in a 3730 lb.(race weight)'69' GTX...which was running 1.54-1.56 short times? I will be with Raff tomorrow,and taking pictures....as well as videos! SHOULD BE FUN!..and interesting!
Posted By: deaks

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 09:36 PM

I wouldn't guess on the hp Mike, as i dont know much about sb but i hope you get what you're looking for.
Randy It takes 585 hp to run 10.80 and 601 to run 10.70 at that weight, your 11.19 equates to 526, that's from the wallace calc.
Mick
Posted By: skrews

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 09:41 PM

gotta be over 600
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 09:56 PM

Quote:

you have more head flow then me, more and more duration then me - so if your mot making 600+ you're doing something wrong.

What are you doing for the crankcase? evac? vac pump? breathers? I saw nice gains going up that ladder.


I've got about the same compression ( 10.50 :1) and the most power was made with a 1000HP holley at 65-6600 rpm.

regardless of cam, intake or head I made 560 - 566 tq but I am running a longer stroke - @ 4.125
I also probably have a lighter bobweight, but I am really not sure if that would show up - @ 1749 grams



For the time I'm running 2 breathers.... might put
something on it later... I'll see how it goes
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 10:20 PM

622 hp and 555 fp of torque. I wish you had a 950 HP to try. Good luck .
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/14/12 11:28 PM

Justin!!!! Actually,I have one he could try!...if he wants to try it out! Mike..let me know!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 12:20 AM

Quote:

Justin!!!! Actually,I have one he could try!...if he wants to try it out! Mike..let me know!



Bring it Randy... I'll give it a try
Posted By: Dartin

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 12:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'll take a stab at it with right at 600 with the Dom. Good luck! Take some video if you can!

Randy



Good point... I'll take my video camera..... if the
1050 proves to make good power I'll pull the intake
and machine it to fit the dom but I'm hoping the 850
will be close to right... that way it would be a bit
friendly on MPG on the street.. but I've machined
intakes before to fit a dom....... Randy did you think
that their dyno was a fair dyno when it came to the numbers
(I forget what yours made on it).... I dont need
some BS numbers... just a fair number that I can
figure if my chassis is working right




Mike, I think the numbers Shawn came up with were probably pretty close. I haven't had my car out yet to see what it REALLY makes but hope to soon. My 540 made 830 on their dyno with limited tuning. When Shawn, Sean, and I were planning the build and came up with the parts combo, Shawn said that he had built similar combos when he worked for Chuck and that they made about the same number that mine did. We'll see..... Good luck again! Oh, what are you using for fuel?

Randy

Attached picture 7335424-DSC00874.JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 02:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll take a stab at it with right at 600 with the Dom. Good luck! Take some video if you can!

Randy



Good point... I'll take my video camera..... if the
1050 proves to make good power I'll pull the intake
and machine it to fit the dom but I'm hoping the 850
will be close to right... that way it would be a bit
friendly on MPG on the street.. but I've machined
intakes before to fit a dom....... Randy did you think
that their dyno was a fair dyno when it came to the numbers
(I forget what yours made on it).... I dont need
some BS numbers... just a fair number that I can
figure if my chassis is working right




Mike, I think the numbers Shawn came up with were probably pretty close. I haven't had my car out yet to see what it REALLY makes but hope to soon. My 540 made 830 on their dyno with limited tuning. When Shawn, Sean, and I were planning the build and came up with the parts combo, Shawn said that he had built similar combos when he worked for Chuck and that they made about the same number that mine did. We'll see..... Good luck again! Oh, what are you using for fuel?

Randy



Just running 93 octane pump gas... I picked up 15
gals today... how many gals did you go through when
you dynoed

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 02:48 AM

Dave
I went through the same thing with mine(4.125 stroke).
I just went through ten different cams in mine for an article I'm writing. I can tell you this much,almost nobody that I talked to could spec a decent cam for this engine.
I was able to get just over 580 lbs-ft out of it,but it took a lot of time and effort and trying things to get it.
Keith
Posted By: EvilB1Dart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 04:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll take a stab at it with right at 600 with the Dom. Good luck! Take some video if you can!

Randy



Good point... I'll take my video camera..... if the
1050 proves to make good power I'll pull the intake
and machine it to fit the dom but I'm hoping the 850
will be close to right... that way it would be a bit
friendly on MPG on the street.. but I've machined
intakes before to fit a dom....... Randy did you think
that their dyno was a fair dyno when it came to the numbers
(I forget what yours made on it).... I dont need
some BS numbers... just a fair number that I can
figure if my chassis is working right




Mike, I think the numbers Shawn came up with were probably pretty close. I haven't had my car out yet to see what it REALLY makes but hope to soon. My 540 made 830 on their dyno with limited tuning. When Shawn, Sean, and I were planning the build and came up with the parts combo, Shawn said that he had built similar combos when he worked for Chuck and that they made about the same number that mine did. We'll see..... Good luck again! Oh, what are you using for fuel?

Randy



Randy,

Tell Shawn I said hello (Wes from Arizona).

Wes
Posted By: Dartin

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 10:41 AM

Mike, we went through 10 gallons of VP (hard to find race gas in the winter) and probably could have used about another 5 gallon pail. I would suggest that you bring some extra air bleeds if you have them. Shawn had a limited assortment. Jets probably wouldn't hurt either. If you run across something you need, give me a shout. I can swing by Mancini after work and run it out to you.

Wes, I will likely talk to him this weekend and will do that!

Randy
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 12:13 PM

Randy,

Tell Shawn I said hello (Wes from Arizona).

Wes




I'll tell him Wes ... Randy, fortunately I
am running 83 and can pick up more at the local station
if I need more... I dont have many air bleeds but
I took over there what I have for carb tuning
Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 02:23 PM

I'd say right at 590, you've got bigger headers and heads and a bit more lift than my little 414.

Cam's in a little early and tight centers which is gonna make massive moves through the middle but the torque may not hold on long enough to get the really big numbers (over 610 or so) up top. That's where I'd put it in a 3000 pound car but I'll bet the rampage might ET bestter with it in a little later, especially with the big headers and the 5's

Never ran the large port M1, I like the Vic 340 ported with the 2" HVH/Wilson 4 hole on mine a lot, I think the short runners of the vic are an advantage on the long stroke short rod ratio combos when the cross section of the port is still fairly small.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 04:11 PM

I think the early valve opening is gona limit the peek #s some but the AVE torque is gona be real good, I was wondering how the big M1 was gona work out on 418 cubes under 7k
Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 07:23 PM

With Strokers on the street (or like big automatic B/E bodies when you want to peak the power earlier with an abundance of Head) one of the "secrets" it seemed to take a number of others a while to figure out is to put a big intake lobe in Early to work the head harder sooner. A few years ago I remember reading about Tony Bischoff's 433" CHI headed Windsor that won the Engine Master Challenge...he made like 720hp all in by 6500rpm (best average torque and power from 2500-6500 wins) with real tight Lobe center cam in real early and big heads that flowed in the 380 range.....at that moment I smiled and said, [Email]D@mn![/Email] somebody else done figured it out!

With Mr P's combo all I'm saying is a wider spread and in a little later might benefit the light weight of the Rampage in terms of MPH...it probably doesn't need a ton of torque through the middle as badly as a typical/heavier A body bracket car.

a little OT but With strokers if you think about the mechanics of the stroke and the bigger hole you have to fill more air into in the same relative time (compared to a conventional stroke length). you can see that getting the valve higher sooner as the piston sweep past TDC for the intake stroke can help the fill while also closing it earlier can trap more effective displacement....for every degree past BDC the advantage of your big stroke diminishes....because you're giving back displacement at a faster rate per degree of crank rotation.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 08:41 PM

Well it didnt go well today... let it warm up and
all looked good... made a partial pull to 4500 and
it made 463 hp and 458ftlbs... it was fat so jetted
down 3 jets all around.. made another partial pull and
seen it was lean coming off idle so we pulled the PV
and plugged it, went up 7 jets, made a 5000 rpm pull
and it was down 50 ftlbs... let it stabilize and made
another pull going to 5000 and this time had to abort...
lost another 50 ftlbs... pulled the filter and cut
it open and seen alum partials... they were saying
it looked like bearing material so I pulled the pan
and a 4 rod caps and a main cap but they were fine....
after that I told them screw it, pull it off the dyno...
only thing I can think of is the cam bearings....I'm
so pissed right now I wanted to just do a WOT to see
what the problem was but that didnt happen... I'll
put it back on the stand
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/15/12 08:48 PM

Quote:

I think the early valve opening is gona limit the peek #s some but the AVE torque is gona be real good, I was wondering how the big M1 was gona work out on 418 cubes under 7k



You guys are forgetting... this engine was build
with junk I had laying around the shop.... it is what
it is... I wasnt gonna buy anything I didnt have to
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 01:38 AM

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 02:22 AM

Dang, it sounds like a problem child. I had to open up the pushrod holes a whole lot when I went to the roller lifters and HS rockers. Even with a thick wall 5/16 pushrod when a 3/8 cleared with ease with the flat tappet and Crane rockers. Something to look at.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 02:48 AM

To be honest I'd like to burn this SOAB to the ground...
I have NEVER had a engine give me this much sh!t...
I wanted to do a WOT run and they asked the others
there to talk to me.... I think they just didnt want
to clean the room up..... screw it
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 02:56 AM

Maybe you should have offered to clean up the room.

Sorry, I know it's not funny but sometimes you just gotta laugh to keep from crying. Hope it's nothing major.
Posted By: Ian

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 03:08 AM

feel ya pain bro ,i only ran mine in then found water in ports
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 03:46 AM

Loosing 100 ft lbs in that short of a time and you should be able to see the problem somewhere. You will have to pull ALL the rods and mains to be sure. If the cam spun freely when you put it in, it's not likely the problem. How do the cyl walls look from the bottom? Did you check the rotational torque of the short block when you put it together last? Should have been in the neighborhood of 25 ft lbs. How was the oil pressure? Stay positive. You will find it - hopefully without too much damage. At least you didn't have to deal with taking it in and out of the car again.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 04:35 AM

Quote:

Loosing 100 ft lbs in that short of a time and you should be able to see the problem somewhere. You will have to pull ALL the rods and mains to be sure. If the cam spun freely when you put it in, it's not likely the problem. How do the cyl walls look from the bottom? Did you check the rotational torque of the short block when you put it together last? Should have been in the neighborhood of 25 ft lbs. How was the oil pressure? Stay positive. You will find it - hopefully without too much damage. At least you didn't have to deal with taking it in and out of the car again.



I had to go with 4.080 rings on a 4.076 bore so they
were tighter than normal and it ended up at 32# rotational
which is a bit high but I knew where that came from...
the cam spun freely when I installed it... I didnt
look at the bottom of the bores... by then I was done...
this isnt the first engine for me but this one sure
is giving me sh!t... I ran all sorts of scenarios
through my head this evening but I quit guessing...
I'll find out Friday when I get it home and on the stand
I was so pissed at that point I just quit... nothing
else could be done there on the dyno... why pay for
more time..... granted I didnt pull all the caps
but I doubt its a rod... I could slide them easy
on the journals.... but hell maybe I dont know sh!t
now... of over about 150 engines I've built, this one
is killing me..... and its my own... thank goodness
its not some one elses
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 05:34 AM

Mike..you have a LOT more patience than Me! I would have thrown tools everywhere,I'm sure! Just ANOTHER lousy bump in the road! With as many motors as you've put together without major problems...your number finally had to come up..unfortunately! Hope it's an "easy fix" that will be minimal cost-wise! Please call me on Friday...I want to be there when you disassemble the "little bastardo"!!! BTW...glad Lauren and yourself came out to Woodward tonight!
Posted By: Dartin

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 10:24 AM

Mike, I'm sorry to hear this. Hopefully it's nothing major.

Randy
Posted By: Abodyjohn88

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 06:40 PM

Dang mike... This just gos to show that sometimes no matter how much experiance and mopar wisdom ( n I beleive you have lots) you have. [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] can still go wrong. : / ... Good luck with it budd.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/16/12 07:17 PM

Quote:

Well it didnt go well today... let it warm up and
all looked good... made a partial pull to 4500 and
it made 463 hp and 458ftlbs... it was fat so jetted
down 3 jets all around.. made another partial pull and
seen it was lean coming off idle so we pulled the PV
and plugged it, went up 7 jets, made a 5000 rpm pull
and it was down 50 ftlbs... let it stabilize and made
another pull going to 5000 and this time had to abort...
lost another 50 ftlbs... pulled the filter and cut
it open and seen alum partials... they were saying
it looked like bearing material so I pulled the pan
and a 4 rod caps and a main cap but they were fine....
after that I told them screw it, pull it off the dyno...
only thing I can think of is the cam bearings....I'm
so pissed right now I wanted to just do a WOT to see
what the problem was but that didnt happen... I'll
put it back on the stand


Really sorry to hear this Mike. I have patience issues so this stuff can really take us over the top till we take a step back and chill to evaluate the situaltion w/a clear non-angry mindstate. Works for me............sort of You`ll get it and when you do that thing will FLY...............
Posted By: quickd100

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 02:04 AM

I feel for you Mike, have a drink or 4 tonite and try and put it out of your mind for a couple hours. Hopefully it's something minor, rocker arms? Don't give up, maybe walk away from it for a day or two. I've had a couple motors bust my azz for awhile, I KNOW you'll get it straightened out. Dave
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 01:05 PM

Sorry to hear about this, Mike. Hope it isn't serious
I am sure you will post results, and many will learn from it.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 01:26 PM

Quote:

Sorry to hear about this, Mike. Hope it isn't serious
I am sure you will post results, and many will learn from it.



Thanks guys... I'm thinking it has to be a rod bearing
but I didnt feel any bad... but to loose 100#tq
it has to be something at a distance from the C/L..
I'll pick it up this morning and get it on the stand
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 08:06 PM

The only thing I see is where some dirt/debris on
a couple of piston skirts scratched the bores..
2 have a pretty good scratch .... all the bearings
looked fine... so I still dont know where all this
alum partials came from
Posted By: MattW

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 09:07 PM

Did you check the bushing for the distributor?
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 09:21 PM

Check those pushrods Mike.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 10:07 PM

Take a good look @ the thrust bearing... It seems just a little ware puts a lot of material in the pan
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 10:17 PM

Mike..what about the cam bearings? Hard to believe it wasn't one of the rods! All the main bearings were OK as well? Please let us know as soon as you find the "culprit"! Losing 100 ft. lbs....it has to be something that sticks out like a sore thumb! Keeping my fingers crossed!
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/17/12 10:24 PM

Craig... after rod bearing guess,I was thinking maybe a straightness issue with the crank!??? But,in my case...it would just be a guess! I don't have that much experience with engine problems,first hand! I do read a LOT about engines,though!...and occasionally stay at Holiday Inns!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 02:18 AM

Quote:

Mike..what about the cam bearings? Hard to believe it wasn't one of the rods! All the main bearings were OK as well? Please let us know as soon as you find the "culprit"! Losing 100 ft. lbs....it has to be something that sticks out like a sore thumb! Keeping my fingers crossed!



I had Larry stop by to take a look at it... he said
the scuffed walls would eat the torque but he is
stumped as to where the material came from... cam
bearings looked fine, pushrods were fine, dist bushing
is fine... one of the main bearings has a line in
it that he said looked weird so he is gonna stop by
with his bore gauge to see if that one main is ok
but thats the only thing he sees but he has no idea
where the crap/alum came from... neither do I...
like someone went into the shop and dumped alum in it
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 02:38 AM

I would now think it's the carb.

Power went down after messing with the carb..

Try a different one. You already washed the rings out with it once.

Maybe it did it again.

As far as the metal.. Maybe you just missed something in cleaning..

I've done that before.




Chris..
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 02:57 AM

Quote:

I would now think it's the carb.

Power went down after messing with the carb..

Try a different one. You already washed the rings out with it once.

Maybe it did it again.

As far as the metal.. Maybe you just missed something in cleaning..

I've done that before.




Chris..



I washed that block 3 times before I assembled it

I can say that St. Clair treated me right when it
came to price when I picked up the engine.... IF
I ever get this thing right it'll go back there to
the dyno
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 04:37 AM

Mike,glad Larry took care of you! They are good people,for sure! Hard to believe you haven't found anything that stands out from the norm! Keep us informed if you find out anything!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 05:31 AM

Quote:

Mike,glad Larry took care of you! They are good people,for sure! Hard to believe you haven't found anything that stands out from the norm! Keep us informed if you find out anything!



Larry didnt have a clue where that alum came from and
I really dont know either.... it was in the pan and
the filter so it had to start from in the pan but it
was in the bearings also... so that would mean it
was in the oil gallies also or it got through the
filter(which I doubt).... I cleaned that block 3 times
before I started assembly so I dont know... looks
like I'll order up new main and rod bearings and do
a hone then clean it AGAIN and try 1 last time...
I think I'll pull the heads apart to check them real
close and clean them... thats all I can think of...
I have 2 more 340 blocks that are bored but I would
have to have either of them decked to my set up but
that will be my last resort.... still think I should
have done a WOT run.... that would have found the
problem
Posted By: Crazy68Dart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 12:43 PM

Maybe the junk was in the filter when you spun it on, brand new out of the box, who knows, crazier things have happened.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 12:58 PM

Quote:

Maybe the junk was in the filter when you spun it on, brand new out of the box, who knows, crazier things have happened.



Larry asked that same thing... was it a new filter..
yes it was... yeah anything can happen I guess
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 01:54 PM

Wow!! Sorry to read this,Mike! But if anyone can figure it out,I know it will be you!! Hang in there buddy!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 02:08 PM

Quote:

Wow!! Sorry to read this,Mike! But if anyone can figure it out,I know it will be you!! Hang in there buddy!



Thanks Ted.... I'll get there but for being a cheapo
engine build this thing sure is EATING up money...
I think I'll have to name this engine(I dont name
engines) but this one deserves one... it'll be called
"THE BIT(H".... all it wants to do is take my money
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 02:15 PM

Nothing is cheap anymore!! And that is the reason I have parked mine. It would be fun to have it licensed and drive on the street but it has too much missing to have the DOT look it over...
Posted By: SB412DUSTER

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 03:41 PM

I have seen debris in between the parts of the pan where the bottom is welded on, you can take a small hammer and bump on it and watch the junk come out. I put them in the parts washer and tap while the fluid is running in it.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 03:55 PM

Yeah that happened to me on a charlies pan, I about died when I pulled the pan, but it was just as you described, and I only noticed it when I was useing a power washer on it, the banging on the ground made it come ot in chunks. Kinda wierd...

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 04:05 PM

I built the pan I'm using but its steel.. and yeah I
made sure it was clean in any overlaps
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 04:15 PM

If you run a oil filter with a bypass that can be why the trash went past the filter, You said some of the bores were scuffed...That would drop torque fast and lead to ring sealing problems... Hang in there Mike its just W5 voodoo
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 04:19 PM

Quote:

If you run a oil filter with a bypass that can be why the trash went past the filter, You said some of the bores were scuffed...That would drop torque fast and lead to ring sealing problems... Hang in there Mike its just W5 voodoo


The one cyl is scuffed enough that I'm gonna have it
sleeved the other couple will be honed.... its just
money.... spend it like ya got it
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 04:33 PM

Somethings up with that 340 block.... 2nd go around with bore problems might want to sonic it before the sleeve
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 06:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The one cyl is scuffed enough that I'm gonna have it
sleeved the other couple will be honed.... its just
money.... spend it like ya got it




It sounds like your piston to bore clearences might not be loose enough, and the pistons are growing trying to sieze itself into the bores.

Or it may be yet another cause, maybe a spun cam bearing starting to bind. Keep on checking it out.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 08:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The one cyl is scuffed enough that I'm gonna have it
sleeved the other couple will be honed.... its just
money.... spend it like ya got it




It sounds like your piston to bore clearences might not be loose enough, and the pistons are growing trying to sieze itself into the bores.

Or it may be yet another cause, maybe a spun cam bearing starting to bind. Keep on checking it out.



Actually its .002 oversize on the bore ... its not
a cam bearing... already looked and they were fine
and the cam spins nice and free
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 08:12 PM

Quote:

Somethings up with that 340 block.... 2nd go around with bore problems might want to sonic it before the sleeve



I know I had it sonic checked before but with all the
340 blocks I have I dont recall on this one but thats
a good idea to have it done again... but I dont think
its a bore problem... just debris got in there
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 08:46 PM

Mike.... Not wantin to be a pain , just kickin some stuff around, Bock filled or wet? Whats the side clearance? Whos piston, Honed with torque plate? Type of piston coating, Shop temp when measuring vs assembly..... The bores and hone should have been like new both times from the amount of run time, Something's not happy in the bores.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 09:10 PM

Quote:

Mike.... Not wantin to be a pain , just kickin some stuff around, Bock filled or wet? Whats the side clearance? Whos piston, Honed with torque plate? Type of piston coating, Shop temp when measuring vs assembly..... The bores and hone should have been like new both times from the amount of run time, Something's not happy in the bores.



No problem.... its a wet block, bores are .002 larger
than the piston manufacturers spec (Diamond) due to
honing... the first time the oil rings almost dropped
through(about 6# pull) so they were too small for the
bore but I tried it anyways... I had a bore of 4.075
instead of 4.070 and I ordered everything for a 4.070
bore(thats what I thought it was without measuring it)
so this time I had it honed to 4.077 and the rings
are 4.080 non file fit which still gave me material
to file fit them..... I had the pistons coated to
make up the difference but they are .001 smaller than
what I was hoping for... temps were very comparable...
within 10*
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 10:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Mike.... Not wantin to be a pain , just kickin some stuff around, Bock filled or wet? Whats the side clearance? Whos piston, Honed with torque plate? Type of piston coating, Shop temp when measuring vs assembly..... The bores and hone should have been like new both times from the amount of run time, Something's not happy in the bores.



No problem.... its a wet block, bores are .002 larger
than the piston manufacturers spec (Diamond) due to
honing... the first time the oil rings almost dropped
through(about 6# pull) so they were too small for the
bore but I tried it anyways... I had a bore of 4.075
instead of 4.070 and I ordered everything for a 4.070
bore(thats what I thought it was without measuring it)
so this time I had it honed to 4.077 and the rings
are 4.080 non file fit which still gave me material
to file fit them..... I had the pistons coated to
make up the difference but they are .001 smaller than
what I was hoping for... temps were very comparable...
within 10*




are you saying the pistons are for a 4.070 bore but the bore is actually 4.077?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 10:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mike.... Not wantin to be a pain , just kickin some stuff around, Bock filled or wet? Whats the side clearance? Whos piston, Honed with torque plate? Type of piston coating, Shop temp when measuring vs assembly..... The bores and hone should have been like new both times from the amount of run time, Something's not happy in the bores.



No problem.... its a wet block, bores are .002 larger
than the piston manufacturers spec (Diamond) due to
honing... the first time the oil rings almost dropped
through(about 6# pull) so they were too small for the
bore but I tried it anyways... I had a bore of 4.075
instead of 4.070 and I ordered everything for a 4.070
bore(thats what I thought it was without measuring it)
so this time I had it honed to 4.077 and the rings
are 4.080 non file fit which still gave me material
to file fit them..... I had the pistons coated to
make up the difference but they are .001 smaller than
what I was hoping for... temps were very comparable...
within 10*




are you saying the pistons are for a 4.070 bore but the bore is actually 4.077?



They were originally for a 4.070 bore but I had
them coated to make up the difference... this thing
was a screw up on my part from the moment I ordered
the pistons... I measured 2 of my 3 blocks for bore
and I assumed the third was a 4.070 also with just
a quick measurement which it wasnt 4.070 so when I
grabbed that block it was a shorter deck height and
I ordered the pistons to that shorter deck height....
I know I can have the coating removed and use another
block but I would have to see if the cam exposes the
oil supply hole in the lifter
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 10:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mike.... Not wantin to be a pain , just kickin some stuff around, Bock filled or wet? Whats the side clearance? Whos piston, Honed with torque plate? Type of piston coating, Shop temp when measuring vs assembly..... The bores and hone should have been like new both times from the amount of run time, Something's not happy in the bores.



No problem.... its a wet block, bores are .002 larger
than the piston manufacturers spec (Diamond) due to
honing... the first time the oil rings almost dropped
through(about 6# pull) so they were too small for the
bore but I tried it anyways... I had a bore of 4.075
instead of 4.070 and I ordered everything for a 4.070
bore(thats what I thought it was without measuring it)
so this time I had it honed to 4.077 and the rings
are 4.080 non file fit which still gave me material
to file fit them..... I had the pistons coated to
make up the difference but they are .001 smaller than
what I was hoping for... temps were very comparable...
within 10*




are you saying the pistons are for a 4.070 bore but the bore is actually 4.077?



They were originally for a 4.070 bore but I had
them coated to make up the difference... this thing
was a screw up on my part from the moment I ordered
the pistons... I measured 2 of my 3 blocks for bore
and I assumed the third was a 4.070 also with just
a quick measurement which it wasnt 4.070 so when I
grabbed that block it was a shorter deck height and
I ordered the pistons to that shorter deck height....
I know I can have the coating removed and use another
block but I would have to see if the cam exposes the
oil supply hole in the lifter




there's no coating for pistons other than hard anodize that can make up that size difference. those pistons are made with at least .0045 clearance in them so they would measure 4.0655, that leaves you .0115 piston to wall minus .001-.002 spray on moly coating. the moly coating is sacrificial and won't stay there for very long. i think that's way too much clearance. it may be time to just hone it to 4.08 and put the right size pistons in it, if the block will go that far. most factory blocks will be paper thin at that bore size.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 10:53 PM

there's no coating for pistons other than hard anodize that can make up that size difference. those pistons are made with at least .0045 clearance in them so they would measure 4.0655, that leaves you .0115 piston to wall minus .001-.002 spray on moly coating. the moly coating is sacrificial and won't stay there for very long. i think that's way too much clearance. it may be time to just hone it to 4.08 and put the right size pistons in it, if the block will go that far. most factory blocks will be paper thin at that bore size.



Like I said I can go with another block which is 4.070
and have the coating removed but it will need to be
decked to my set up(rod, piston, stroke combo)
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 10:59 PM

Quote:


there's no coating for pistons other than hard anodize that can make up that size difference. those pistons are made with at least .0045 clearance in them so they would measure 4.0655, that leaves you .0115 piston to wall minus .001-.002 spray on moly coating. the moly coating is sacrificial and won't stay there for very long. i think that's way too much clearance. it may be time to just hone it to 4.08 and put the right size pistons in it, if the block will go that far. most factory blocks will be paper thin at that bore size.



I had this same problem when I tore down my old motor and ended up doing a complete new motor/block/everything.. So there is merit in what you're saying..

But if this was the case with Mikes build.. where did the aluminum come from?
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/18/12 11:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:


there's no coating for pistons other than hard anodize that can make up that size difference. those pistons are made with at least .0045 clearance in them so they would measure 4.0655, that leaves you .0115 piston to wall minus .001-.002 spray on moly coating. the moly coating is sacrificial and won't stay there for very long. i think that's way too much clearance. it may be time to just hone it to 4.08 and put the right size pistons in it, if the block will go that far. most factory blocks will be paper thin at that bore size.



I had this same problem when I tore down my old motor and ended up doing a complete new motor/block/everything.. So there is merit in what you're saying..

But if this was the case with Mikes build.. where did the aluminum come from?



i'd say only Mike knows for sure. if the engine is completely torn down there's likely evidence of where it came from. either something was coming apart or it wasn't cleaned properly before assembly. there's really no other way to say it. i'm not trying to be harsh, but what other possibilities come to mind? i know i'd like to see some pictures of the piston skirts as well as all the bearings lined up in a row. maybe he'll post some pictures.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 12:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


there's no coating for pistons other than hard anodize that can make up that size difference. those pistons are made with at least .0045 clearance in them so they would measure 4.0655, that leaves you .0115 piston to wall minus .001-.002 spray on moly coating. the moly coating is sacrificial and won't stay there for very long. i think that's way too much clearance. it may be time to just hone it to 4.08 and put the right size pistons in it, if the block will go that far. most factory blocks will be paper thin at that bore size.



I had this same problem when I tore down my old motor and ended up doing a complete new motor/block/everything.. So there is merit in what you're saying..

But if this was the case with Mikes build.. where did the aluminum come from?



i'd say only Mike knows for sure. if the engine is completely torn down there's likely evidence of where it came from. either something was coming apart or it wasn't cleaned properly before assembly. there's really no other way to say it. i'm not trying to be harsh, but what other possibilities come to mind? i know i'd like to see some pictures of the piston skirts as well as all the bearings lined up in a row. maybe he'll post some pictures.



I already pitched the bearings but I can take pics
of the pistons... I cleaned that block 3 times....
and I dont have a clue where the alum came from and
the builder I had stop by didnt have a clue either...
its like the alum came from some out side source
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 12:48 AM

I think I'll pick up some cam bearings tomorrow and
put them in another block to see if the lifters will
work... if they do I'll have it decked... the company
that coated the pistons can remove it... I just have
negative vibes with this block.. and its got all nice
stuff on it... billet 4 bolt caps, lifter bushings
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 12:49 AM

Mike, are you suggesting that somebody sabotaged your engine? i would hate to think anyone you know would do such a thing.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 12:52 AM

Quote:

Mike, are you suggesting that somebody sabotaged your engine? i would hate to think anyone you know would do such a thing.



Dan... I have no clue.... but I KNOW its not from
inside that engine(as in bearings)
Posted By: w7smallblock

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 01:54 AM

If the aluminum isn't from bearings maybe its from the biggest piece of aluminum on the engine, the W5 heads. I would look close at the spring pockets in the heads.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 02:16 AM

Quote:

If the aluminum isn't from bearings maybe its from the biggest piece of aluminum on the engine, the W5 heads. I would look close at the spring pockets in the heads.



I plan on tearing them down to give them a close
look... but I cut them down in the spring pocket
for drain back which you have to do on the W-5s
but that was a couple years ago.... nothing jumped
out at me when I changed them to larger valves
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 04:54 AM

Mike, sonic the current block and see if ya can go to 4.080, I have one @ 4.100 running a 3.70 crank
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 04:58 AM

Quote:

Mike, sonic the current block and see if ya can go to 4.080, I have one @ 4.100 running a 3.70 crank



I dont want to buy another set of pistons
Posted By: TrWaters

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 01:52 PM

Are you positive that it is aluminum in the filter?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 01:56 PM

Quote:

Are you positive that it is aluminum in the filter?



We put a magnet to it and it didnt stick and its a
silverish color so its not steel or a bronze/brass
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 02:33 PM

Is the alu shiney or dull? Do you run solid alu or tri metal bearings? what was the round about volume of alu material?
Posted By: sleepyhead416

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 03:10 PM

MOLY LUBE ?
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 04:39 PM

Quote:

MOLY LUBE ?

Well I'm sorry to hear about these difficulties. Mike many of us are here to help if you need it, even morally. (As J. Belushi once said "Was it 'over' for us when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?") I am starting to wonder too if the dyno was screwed-up and that was moly lube in the crankcase...I once 'saved' a rebuild because of that near mistake.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 05:11 PM

Quote:

MOLY LUBE ?

Years ago when I ran my gear drive I moly lubed the hell out of that thing(too many `s)and that stuff was still there when I rebuilt it years later..............
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 06:28 PM

Tri-metal, and I didnt use moly on the build... I
cant really say how much material was there .. not
a lot but more than I would expect to see... I wonder
if it was a dyno thing but still the material was there...
like I said more than I would have ever expected)...
sorta hard to gauge the amount... I ordered up new
bearings today plus I ordered cam bearings to install
in another block to check if the cam and lifters
will work in it... thats has stock oil gallies and
IS 4.070 bore... lifter bores are .905 so it all
measures good
Posted By: PETE@BESTMACHINE

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/19/12 09:16 PM

What a story, Dan I think you are on to something, everybody that has had there hands in this thing is clueless. Not trying to start anything but wrong piston size, no oil ring drag and assembled anyway, rehoned with to much piston to wall, bearings are junk every time it comes apart and now it needs a sleeve. What a mess, Mike if you what it checked out give us a call, sometimes a different set of eyes might help.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 12:24 AM

Thanks Pete... but I'm starting all over with the
right bore... I'll just have to get it decked
EDIT
And Pete if you read it then you know it was me so
no one had their hands in it... so there is no one to
bash except for me
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 01:35 PM

Well Mike, just thinking out loud here, You know there was piston to wall scuffs, and there was one bad enough for yu to want to sleeve that hole, could the aluminum have come from there? I know its a long shot, but it could have, also did ya use ARP lube on the bolts? That has made a mess in my pan before, and it didnt take much.

Just poking things around a bit.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 02:21 PM

Quote:

Well Mike, just thinking out loud here, You know there was piston to wall scuffs, and there was one bad enough for yu to want to sleeve that hole, could the aluminum have come from there? I know its a long shot, but it could have, also did ya use ARP lube on the bolts? That has made a mess in my pan before, and it didnt take much.

Just poking things around a bit.





The pistons were coated and the coating looked great
so that wasnt it... I'm looking to use my other block
which has the correct bore for the pistons then start
over with it... I'll just transfer the guts into it
but its gonna need to be decked... this engine was a
error on my part to begin with... I should have grabbed
this other block from the start and went with it
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 02:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well Mike, just thinking out loud here, You know there was piston to wall scuffs, and there was one bad enough for yu to want to sleeve that hole, could the aluminum have come from there? I know its a long shot, but it could have, also did ya use ARP lube on the bolts? That has made a mess in my pan before, and it didnt take much.

Just poking things around a bit.





The pistons were coated and the coating looked great
so that wasnt it... I'm looking to use my other block
which has the correct bore for the pistons then start
over with it... I'll just transfer the guts into it
but its gonna need to be decked... this engine was a
error on my part to begin with... I should have grabbed
this other block from the start and went with it




Been there dont that,

I effed up on a simple 318 build and didnt get the oil galleys cleaned up good enough after I ball honed the lifter bores, there was more material in there than I thought and the rod/main bearings found it in a hurry.

I was more embarrassed than mad.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 02:34 PM

Been there dont that,

I effed up on a simple 318 build and didnt get the oil galleys cleaned up good enough after I ball honed the lifter bores, there was more material in there than I thought and the rod/main bearings found it in a hurry.

I was more embarrassed than mad.





I still have no idea where the alum came from but
at this point I dont care... I'll start over with
this other block and do it right instead of being
cheap..
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 03:29 PM

Quote:

Thanks Pete... but I'm starting all over with the
right bore... I'll just have to get it decked
EDIT
And Pete if you read it then you know it was me so
no one had their hands in it... so there is no one to
bash except for me


....Pete,if you actually know Mike,you know he's man enough to admit he made a mistake!...unlike some other people on this site! Knowing him like I do....this time, IT WILL BE RIGHT!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 03:42 PM

Randy EMPTY your PMs
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 03:43 PM

sorry to hear of all your bad luck. Just want to throw this out there, i don't know how many times you have put this together but make sure you check/replace your rod bolts. They could be stretched beyond their limit. good luck
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Another Whats the HP - 08/20/12 05:34 PM

DONE!!!
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