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Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads?

Posted By: 451Mopar

Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 06:07 AM

I have a post in the general area, when I was not sure what broke on my engine.
Found that I broke another rocker stand off my Edelbrock Victor Max Wedge heads. It seems to just be the center rocker stand, but the casting looks really porous and the helicoli does not go into the head below the stand (If it did, I doubt this would have broke?)

I am using PAC1325 valve springs installed at 1.950", so closed pressure is 275#, and open (0.714" lift), is just over 700# open. Solid roller Comp HXL lobe 264/264 duration cam. I usually shift around 6,500 RPM max, but have a 7,000 RPM limiter chip in the MSD, and I may have hit the limiter in the burnout box a few times.
The Rocker arms are T&D 1.6:1 ratio, with Smithbrothers 3/8"x0.089" wall pushrods.

When I first built the engine, the drivers side head broke (split) the center rocker stand, and I just though that it was my fault for running rockershaft shims. So, I milled the stands flat and used the maxwedge style rocker shaft hold downs. Because the stands break down to the base, a spacer was machined between the head and center hold down. Under the spacer I installed a 3/4" long TimeSert into the head for the center hold down bolt.
I have not had problems with the other rocker shaft stands, but they are wider, and the center stands have the heli-coils located further down in the head (below the oiling hole.)

Attached picture 7290220-Edel-Broke1.jpg
Posted By: Deepockets

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 12:29 PM

your running right at the same spring pressure that i run with the same head. my lift is at .693 and run 1.950 installed. i dont like the length of the rocker studs supplied from eddie and t&d as they dont allow the studs to use the full thread engaugement that the head prvides. anainst my will, i bought the studs from indy, as they are longer and go further in the hole. i remember you having this issue before, and thats what prompted me to get the longer studs prior to running my engine. also did you set the shimming yourself? i've seen and read on this post that some machine shops had set the coil bind figures wrong. good luck.
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 01:30 PM

Keep us posted on what you find! I could have sold my Victors,but decided to keep them..
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 01:48 PM

what was your thread engagement? did the break occur at the end of the bolt?

How much depth was leftover after the end of the bolt threads?


I elected to use studs, since I was going for a solid roller to get as much thread engagement as possible in the aluminum.
Posted By: mistress

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 01:52 PM

I broke the center tower on one of my victors about 3 years ago. running comp 943 springs with hughes 1.6 rockers. 240 seat pressure at 1.90 height, 598 open. i don't use studs any more. they have grade 8 bolts that go deeper in and no more problems
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 02:32 PM

Quote:

I broke the center tower on one of my victors about 3 years ago. running comp 943 springs with hughes 1.6 rockers. 240 seat pressure at 1.90 height, 598 open....


Ughhh... that's my combination, too.

What about longer studs? I don't like bolts in aluminum heads w/ high spring pressures.
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 02:33 PM

Quote:



What about longer studs? I don't like bolts in aluminum heads w/ high spring pressures.


Posted By: mistress

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 03:58 PM

i wasn't able to find studs that fit deep in the head at that time, the bolts have been working ok for me. i am using a comp roller 702 lift so its not too crazy of lift. ok so far they do have heli coils in them
Posted By: oldtimer5151

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 06:56 PM

What is your valve spring coil bind clearance?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/13/12 11:59 PM

Quote:

what was your thread engagement? did the break occur at the end of the bolt?

How much depth was leftover after the end of the bolt threads?


I elected to use studs, since I was going for a solid roller to get as much thread engagement as possible in the aluminum.



I was using bolts that were more than full engagement of the heli-coil, but there really is nothing for the bolt to grip onto below the helicoil because the hole was drilled for the helicoil. I don't recall the coil bind spec, but I have checked that, and that is not the problem.
Anyhow, I'll fix it like I did the other side, mill it flat, install a 3/4" long Time-Sert, and add a spacer betwen the head and rocker hold down, and use the longest bolt that fits.

I may remove the other heli-coils and install the longer Time-Serts, but I'm not sure how hard it will be removing the heli-coils. I was thinking a reverse twist drill bit may do the trick?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/14/12 12:10 AM

I needed to vent some frustration with the parts breakage, but that's just part of racing.
The heads do seem to work good, it's just that they could have made a few minor changes to make them much better. Namely longer valves for a 2.0" valve spring install height, Raising the rocker shaft for the longer valves, using longer (or deeper) inserts for the rockershafts, raising the valve cover rail, and making the pushrod holes larger for more pushrod clearance.

I actually like Edelbrock parts, and normally their quality is great, but the quality/execution of these heads has been dissapointing.
Posted By: mistress

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/14/12 12:20 AM

I sent mine to Dave Hughes and he repaired the head and built a new center rocker tower, it looked better than new. and like i said this was 3 years ago and about 500 passes ago.
Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/14/12 12:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

what was your thread engagement? did the break occur at the end of the bolt?

How much depth was leftover after the end of the bolt threads?


I elected to use studs, since I was going for a solid roller to get as much thread engagement as possible in the aluminum.



I was using bolts that were more than full engagement of the heli-coil, but there really is nothing for the bolt to grip onto below the helicoil because the hole was drilled for the helicoil. I don't recall the coil bind spec, but I have checked that, and that is not the problem.
Anyhow, I'll fix it like I did the other side, mill it flat, install a 3/4" long Time-Sert, and add a spacer betwen the head and rocker hold down, and use the longest bolt that fits.

I may remove the other heli-coils and install the longer Time-Serts, but I'm not sure how hard it will be removing the heli-coils. I was thinking a reverse twist drill bit may do the trick?

Easiest way to remove Heli-Coils is get a pick in behind the uppermost coil and bend it in toward the hole, once you get that just grab it with a needle nose and they (un)wind right out. The only potetial problem I see is what size hole/tap do you need for the Time-Certs, will it work with the existing stands?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/14/12 05:08 AM

Thanks, I think I will try that to remove the heli-coils. When I broke the first stand, I converted the heads to use the max wedge style hold downs that are a block with a hole machined in them for the shaft, so the circular part of the stands on the heads was milled flat. I will have to get some photos this weekend. It's easier to show than explain.
Posted By: viperblue72

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/14/12 11:53 PM

Are you sure your rocker stand bolt didn't bottom out?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:41 AM

Quote:

Are you sure your rocker stand bolt didn't bottom out?



I'm sure they were not bottoming out, I put the bolts in till they bottomed out and made sure they were lower than the rocker hold downs/stands.

Here is a picture of the head that broke last year that is fixed, and the rocker stands.

Attached picture 7293020-oldfix.jpg
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:47 AM

Another od the Tim-Sert under the spacer.

Attached picture 7293024-timsert.jpg
Posted By: Deepockets

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 03:00 PM

here's a pict of the extra thread engaugement that you'll get with the indy studs (shinny) and it does use evevy thread of the stud. the black one with the relief is a t&d and the other black ones are from eddie.
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 03:04 PM

Are those studs for the -1 heads? I need some new ones and want to get the best!
Posted By: Deepockets

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 03:18 PM

they have them listed on there site, was'nt listed for any certain head.
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 03:21 PM

Looks like the Indys are the ones,then. Thanks!!
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 03:59 PM

FWIW, I had a mix-n-match of Indy and ARP studs w/ my Stage VI heads: you need to verify the UNthreaded portion of the Indy studs that protrudes through the shaft hold-downs doesn't end up above the top of the hold-downs. If I didn't have some fairly thick shims stacked under my shafts because of rocker geometry "fixes", I would have needed to add extra washers under the nuts that retain the shafts because of this.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 04:04 PM

Quote:

I sent mine to Dave Hughes and he repaired the head and built a new center rocker tower, it looked better than new...


Was Hughes' repair done by re-welding a new post, or by machining the original post down and adding bolt-down stands like the OP?
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 04:10 PM

I understand what you are saying,Brad... Did you ever get yours mocked up,yet?
Posted By: mistress

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I sent mine to Dave Hughes and he repaired the head and built a new center rocker tower, it looked better than new...


Was Hughes' repair done by re-welding a new post, or by machining the original post down and adding bolt-down stands like the OP?



he welded area back up and machined it to original design. i kept the old piece that was broke off.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 05:07 PM

Thanks for the info.

Now I'm all paranoid that I'm going to break the center rocker stands on my Victors once my Challenger's back on the street.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:22 PM

Quote:

... closed pressure is 275#... open... just over 700#... 3/8"x0.089" wall pushrods.


Also wanted to mention that everything I've seen and heard re: pushrods these days is that yours aren't beefy enough for that much spring pressure / RPM / aggressive lobes.

It probably has nothing to do w/ breaking the shaft pedestals, but could definitely have an impact on valve train longevity. I think most engine builders I deal with would be suggesting at least .120" walls in a 3/8" diam. pushrod.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:23 PM

I think part of the problem is the center stand has the least amount of material around the heli-coil, and it does not stand up the the high spring pressures. Stud or longer bolt won't help the problem because the there is nothing to grip onto below the heli-coil. It seems the other stands are OK, because the heli-coil is much deeper into the head (below the oil hole) on the middle stands, and the outer stands, it is located in a thicker cast section also.
I would recommend removing the center heli-coil, and installing a new one deeper in the head below the machined sides of the center stand. When I installed the Time-Sert I drilled 1-1/2" below the machined area and did not run into anything (like a water jacket.)

Here is a pic of the Time-Sert kit. The kit comes with drill, countersink, tap, installation tool, and 10 of the 1/2" long steel inserts. I think the kit was a bit pricy, around $60? The two 3/4" long stainless inserts at the lower right corner is what I used. They are about $1 each.

Attached picture 7293516-timesert.jpg
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:27 PM

My concerns about breaking those center pedestals increased x 10 after reading through this thread. Sounds like there's some additional work to do before the heads go on the engine. Thanks.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:29 PM

Oops, I forgot to mention the three middle bolts were ground to reduce the diameter for oil flow through the T&D rocker shafts. The T&D rocker shaft has very thick walls, ans if you use a bolt or stud that is not reduced in diameter where it goes through the shaft, it will cut off oil flow to the rockers.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/15/12 06:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

... closed pressure is 275#... open... just over 700#... 3/8"x0.089" wall pushrods.


Also wanted to mention that everything I've seen and heard re: pushrods these days is that yours aren't beefy enough for that much spring pressure / RPM / aggressive lobes.

It probably has nothing to do w/ breaking the shaft pedestals, but could definitely have an impact on valve train longevity. I think most engine builders I deal with would be suggesting at least .120" walls in a 3/8" diam. pushrod.



The pushrods seem OK I have not bent one, but they may be flexing? I was thinking of going to the 0.120 wall pushrods.
Since I have the engine out, I am thinking of having deeper valve reliefs put in the pistons, re-balance it, and get a slightly larger cam like I originally planed. I went to a smaller cam when I noticed I would run into P-V clearance problems with the bigger cam.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/17/12 02:58 PM

Anyone think that having some additional material welded around the center pedestal would help w/ this issue? Since it was pointed out that it's only been the centers that have broken and the others w/ more "beef" around them haven't, this came to mind...
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/17/12 09:48 PM

And a dumb question: Are both of the people who've posted having this problem running the Max Wedge version of the Victor head, or just the OP?

I'm curious because I was just looking over Edelbrock's online catalog (http://www.edelbrock.com/zmags/automotive.shtml) and noticed that on page 147 the pictures show the center pedestal being machined noticeably narrower on the MW version than on the standard Victor.

EDIT: Now I'm not sure what the deal is... found some pics of a standard Victor w/ the same narrower center pedestal as the catalog MW Victor shows. Different manufacturing runs, perhaps?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/18/12 02:41 AM

FWIW the MW Victors I have here show porosity on the center stand. I am going to call Edelbrock tomorrow and ask what to do about it. I think the right thing to do would be moving the helicoil farther down in the hole where there is more meat.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/18/12 01:44 PM

Quote:

... I think the right thing to do would be moving the helicoil farther down in the hole where there is more meat.


After checking over two sets of the standard Victors last night that both have the same narrow center pedestal, I'm of the same opinion that the heli-coil location is the issue.

Is the Time-Sert kit shown above a legit DIY deal, or should I work w/ a local machine shop to ensure this isn't botched up? I've installed plenty of heli-coils before, but this job looks to be a little different since it involves drilling much deeper than the existing heli-coil, etc.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/18/12 06:01 PM

I talked to a technician at Edelbrock and he stated that they have not seen many failures of this type and asked that we collectively send some pictures of the problem area / broken parts so they can inspect them.

I am going to have the missus photograph the center stand on the heads here to show the dark spots in the casting.

If anyone wants to add to the collection please PM me for my email address and make sure to include your contact information (if Edelbrock can contact you, that is).

To the OP : can I send you pics to Edelbrock?

Anybody else have pictures of broken/damaged rocker stands?

Does anyone have pictures of the Procomp rocker stands?
Posted By: BradH

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/18/12 08:49 PM

Quote:

I talked to a technician at Edelbrock and he stated that they have not seen many failures of this type...


I noticed you said "many", rather than "any". That tells me they've seen enough to know it's an issue...
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/18/12 10:21 PM

Well let's not assume anything. I took it as "failures with this particular product" or maybe he said "any" and I misunderstood. My day time shop is near the airport and they are pretty busy today.

I would like to make sure that Edelbrock is aware of the problem and see if they are interested in giving us their insight on fixing it/warranty. To me this is a defect in craftsmanship.

Brad, does the center stand on your heads have dark marks in the aluminum like my sets do?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/20/12 04:30 AM

Bump for pictures and approval to send them. I'd like to gain some traction on this but if nobody else cares I will move on...
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/20/12 05:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

... I think the right thing to do would be moving the helicoil farther down in the hole where there is more meat.


After checking over two sets of the standard Victors last night that both have the same narrow center pedestal, I'm of the same opinion that the heli-coil location is the issue.

Is the Time-Sert kit shown above a legit DIY deal, or should I work w/ a local machine shop to ensure this isn't botched up? I've installed plenty of heli-coils before, but this job looks to be a little different since it involves drilling much deeper than the existing heli-coil, etc.



If your head is not broken, If you could spin the heli-coil down another 1/2" or so, I think it would be OK, but the insert tang may have been broken off at the factory, so you may have to remove the old one before installing another one deeper. The time-sert is nice, but the top has a step in it that you countersink for. It works great if you have broken the stand and milled the surface flat, but with the stock stand, I would not make the hole larger in diameter because the stand is pretty narrow.

The time-sert can be done by hand like a heli-coil, but a drill press will ensure the hole you drill is perpendicular to the deck, and in-line with the other rocker shaft hold down fasteners.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/20/12 06:27 AM

Quote:

Bump for pictures and approval to send them. I'd like to gain some traction on this but if nobody else cares I will move on...



Picture of the stand that broke a year ago:

Attached picture 7300207-e4.jpg
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/20/12 06:31 AM

You can see how the heli-coil was in the stand part and not deeper in the head. Here is a pic I took when checking spring install height, I cropped it to better show the rocker stand when the heads were new.

Attached picture 7300211-e1.jpg
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/20/12 06:34 AM

That is not the center stand, but you can see how porous the casting is. Here is one of the center stand, but the picture is not great.

Attached picture 7300215-e2.jpg
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Anyone have problem with Edelbrock heads? - 07/20/12 06:46 AM

Thank you for posting those up.

If you have high resolution copies I'd love to take a look at them.

You have a PM sir.
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