A hypothetical question for you all to chew on.

Posted By: StrokerPost

A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 08:04 PM

Suppose you were wanting to build a bracket car to run in the 9.50 range, all other things being the same, i.e. weight-say 3200 lbs, auto trans-you pick which one, stuff like that, and it HAD to be a hemi, which would be the better, easiest, most cost effective way to go, old style RB block style or new school Gen 3? Maybe this has come up before, but I didnt see it.

I've been impressed by the performance of the Gen 3 motor, but dollar for dollar can it match the old hemi? I'm just gonna sit back and listen to you guys.
Thanks.
Ken.

Posted By: bwdst6

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 08:10 PM

Quote:

I've been impressed by the performance of the Gen 3 motor, but dollar for dollar can it match the old hemi?

Nope. Unless someone starts making gen 3 stuff that can match the gen 2�s displacements.

Posted By: W9 Dart

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 08:17 PM

I say Gen III. I obviously have a swayed opinion on the topic though.
Can you have power adders? Tell me more what your class restriction are. I'm running a 6.1 with forged drop in pistons(stock forged crank stock powdered rods), ported heads, custom cam, TTi headers, and a Kenne Bell supercharger 10 lbs of boost. Making approximately 640 to the wheels. I'm at 3200 lbs as well. that puts me in the ball park of where you want to be. If I had better rods I could turn the wick up to 18-22 lbs and make so monster power, but my build was a so called budget build. I have close to 18 in the motor and power adder.

I know tons of guys running new Chargers, challengers, and 300 that are in the 10.5 range and they are 4400lbs. One of the guys is running it N/A alumin block 46X CI motor. The other are NO2 cars, etc. If it's a budget build just get a short block like my 6.1 port the heads, change the cam, and put the bottle on it and you will make ur number.

I chose to go supercharger b/c of the wow factor.

Posted By: cagebob1

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 09:03 PM

The Gen2 hemi will always win the wow factor hands down! But, I'm going to use the Gen3 for my new car. I want to use new technology (electronic injection, computer/distributorless ignition). Time to keep up with the times.

The dinosaurs didn't change with the times...and look what happened to them!

Posted By: joshking440

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 09:06 PM

FYI...aftermarket gen 3 hemi head

http://www.lxforums.com/board/f71/introd...er-head-310779/

Posted By: bwdst6

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 09:27 PM

Quote:

The Gen2 hemi will always win the wow factor hands down! But, I'm going to use the Gen3 for my new car. I want to use new technology (electronic injection, computer/distributorless ignition). Time to keep up with the times.

The dinosaurs didn't change with the times...and look what happened to them!

You know there are any number of aftermarket companies out there that you can buy parts from to put efi, crank triggers, etc on a gen2 hemi.

Posted By: polyspheric

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 09:41 PM

And a real Ardun trumps that.

Depends on whether you're trying to impress 15 year olds at the Dairy Queen, or build a fast car.

Posted By: dizuster

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 10:02 PM

Dollar for Dollar to run 9.50? I can't see how a Gen 2 hemi could compete with a Gen 3 hemi.

Even in the block price alone, you'd be WAY ahead with a Gen 3.

No way would it be as cool. No way could it compete in blown nitro form, but to run 9.50? Hard to pass up...

Same reason every chevy guy in the world runs a LSX now instead of the old 454.

Posted By: StrokerPost

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 10:28 PM

Quote:

I say Gen III. I obviously have a swayed opinion on the topic though.
Can you have power adders? Tell me more what your class restriction are. I'm running a 6.1 with forged drop in pistons(stock forged crank stock powdered rods), ported heads, custom cam, TTi headers, and a Kenne Bell supercharger 10 lbs of boost. Making approximately 640 to the wheels. I'm at 3200 lbs as well. that puts me in the ball park of where you want to be. If I had better rods I could turn the wick up to 18-22 lbs and make so monster power, but my build was a so called budget build. I have close to 18 in the motor and power adder.

I know tons of guys running new Chargers, challengers, and 300 that are in the 10.5 range and they are 4400lbs. One of the guys is running it N/A alumin block 46X CI motor. The other are NO2 cars, etc. If it's a budget build just get a short block like my 6.1 port the heads, change the cam, and put the bottle on it and you will make ur number.

I chose to go supercharger b/c of the wow factor.

Ok I will clarify this a bit more. First, this IS purely hypothetical, nothing I will be doing..........at least anytime soon. No power adders here, just heads up, pure motor, cubic inch to cubic inch. One thing that appeals to me about the Gen 3 is the weight as compared to a Gen 2, also the size makes it a winner, but I'm still interested in the best over all performer in this comparison. I'm in no rush to do either cuz I know that every month that goes by the Gen 3 will have more and more available, but the possibilities are already impressive.

BTW, what is currently the largest displacement you can achieve with the Gen 3?

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/14/12 10:50 PM

Arrington www.shophemi.com offers a 440" 6.1 based hemi

"440 HEMI (7.2) - 6.1 to 440 short block. 4.060 Bore x 4.250 Stroke"

I think that a 426-440" Gen 3 with some compression a real camshaft and a set of Apache heads should get you there.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 12:20 AM

The G3 weighs at least 200 lb less than the G2. You said cubic inch for cubic inch, which I take to mean no humongous elephant motor competing with a 430 inch G3.

30 years ago, a friend of mine ran a 433 bigblock chevy powered camaro into the 9s. I bet the latest Hemi heads flow better than the old rectangular ports, and the new "Hemi" chamber is much better than the bbchevy open chamber head which had to have a mountain range in the middle to get compression. That camaro weighed in at around 2950 lb. I don't think a 433 inch G3 Hemi would have any trouble laying waste to that car, meaning I can't see why you couldn't get into the 9s normally aspirated using a stock block.
Now you could also do it with an elephant motor but the $$$ would indeed be more and you'd have more problems with weight transfer, engine fitment, etc.
Just my

Posted By: W9 Dart

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 12:30 AM

The gen 3 alumin block can get in the high 469 ci range. This with some nice ported heads (6.1, apache, or the new aftermarket heads) will net you in the very low 9s.

Posted By: Twostick

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 01:10 AM

You should be able to build a Gen 3 for the price of a Gen 2 valvetrain.

Kevin

Posted By: hemidup

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 01:33 AM

Quote:

The G3 weighs at least 200 lb less than the G2. You said cubic inch for cubic inch, which I take to mean no humongous elephant motor competing with a 430 inch G3.

30 years ago, a friend of mine ran a 433 bigblock chevy powered camaro into the 9s. I bet the latest Hemi heads flow better than the old rectangular ports, and the new "Hemi" chamber is much better than the bbchevy open chamber head which had to have a mountain range in the middle to get compression. That camaro weighed in at around 2950 lb. I don't think a 433 inch G3 Hemi would have any trouble laying waste to that car, meaning I can't see why you couldn't get into the 9s normally aspirated using a stock block.
Now you could also do it with an elephant motor but the $$$ would indeed be more and you'd have more problems with weight transfer, engine fitment, etc.
Just my

R.

Just for s n grins we weighed our Gen 3 Drag Pak motor and it came in at 460 lbs. Our Gen 2 426/484 stoker with K heads came in at 720 lbs. With the new Gen 3 aluminum block could put 468 cubes down to 370 lbs.

Posted By: W9 Dart

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 01:36 AM

Bingo ^^^^

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 02:20 AM

Ken, how have you been?

If I didn't already have the small block stuff I'd do a gen III without any second thoughts. The gen IIs are cool but the thought of making 700 hp on pump gas and only weighing 450 lbs appeals to me. Anything I would build would be a street/strip deal. My wife and I drive the Dart all over the place, it never runs hot, starts easy too. The best thing is I can drop the exhaust off and run low 6.70s in the heat.

Speaking of the Dart, when do you want to come to I-57 and drive it?

Justin

Posted By: racer_amx

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 02:27 AM

Im voting for the gen3 as well

Posted By: W9 Dart

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 02:40 AM

You gotta love gen 3 power, reliability, and advanced tech. Last week end I drove the car on a 300 mile road trip. At 70 mph it averaged 16 mpg. This video was started in 2nd gear.

[IMG]http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t73/jbellyus/88a95a76.mp4[/IMG]

Posted By: rickseeman

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 02:32 PM

If its going in that dart only a gen 2 would look right.

Posted By: bwdst6

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 03:35 PM

Last weekend for the Mopar Action event at Maple Grove someone had a gen3 hemi in a white 70 something Duster. Ran high 12�s� BFD! Of course everyone was interested in how he got it in there, what tranny he bolted it to, etc, etc. It was quite popular, just not that fast. In fact the only gen3 I saw there that was running mid 9�s was Barton�s drag pack. And I don�t see too many people being able to build something of that caliber.

Posted By: 70dusterjohn

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 03:48 PM

My buddy has a gen 3 Hemi in his 69 Dart, 426cubs ported heads, different cam, 13 to 1 comp 904 tranny with a brake, dana 4.30 gears on a 10.5 tire, car weighs 3213lbs, he is still trying to get the fuel injection figured out and has spent alot of time on the dyno, but he has gone the fastest to date 9.67. Now that said it is dead rich in the upper RPM band. So I think there is alot more left in it. I would say low 9s. I know my next build will be a GEN 3 hemi, after I get the wifes gen2 hemi together.

Posted By: StrokerPost

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 09:53 PM

Thanks for the input so far guys, lotta good info and food for thought. At this point this is where I stand, if I were to ever get back into serious weekly bracket bashing and I chose to deviate from my SB roots (please dont let me do that, please dont let me do that) I would go Gen 3, providing that by the time I did it the Gen 3 has also proven itself durable. If on the other hand I wasnt as anal about the perfect bracket machine as I have been in the past and wanted the "cool factor" then I would go Gen 2. Actually, since having been out of the game for a few years now I've been thinking I'd like to get into the Nostalgia thing, so old Gen 2 would be the ticket. I would love a 64 Plymouth 2dr sedan with an Elephant!

Time will tell.

Keep it going guys.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 10:17 PM

I have a Gen2 Hemi at 484 cubes, and its a bunch of money to go 9's with one of these...I have seen the Gen 3 hemi's running 9's in much heavier cars with a production block, heads, valvetrain, and crank...My vote is a Gen3 hemi. Not to mention, the Gen3 will be 200lbs lighter...

Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 10:43 PM

Not to mention, the Gen3 will be 200lbs lighter...

Not necessarily...

Attached picture 7251645-CopyofHPIM3262.JPG

Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/15/12 10:51 PM

Quote:

Dollar for Dollar to run 9.50? I can't see how a Gen 2 hemi could compete with a Gen 3 hemi.

Even in the block price alone, you'd be WAY ahead with a Gen 3.

oh yea ? how about 4600 for a 426 gen 3 block

web page

Posted By: coronetville

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/16/12 12:21 AM

First buy a car that weights 2000-2500 # you will be so far ahead of the game. Less horsepower, less expensive parts, easier wear, lower shifting, lower rpms,ect ect..........

Posted By: cagebob1

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/16/12 01:47 AM

Quote:

oh yea ? how about 4600 for a 426 gen 3 block

That's an aluminum block..how much for a Gen2 in aluminum?

Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/16/12 02:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

oh yea ? how about 4600 for a 426 gen 3 block

That's an aluminum block..how much for a Gen2 in aluminum?

http://stores.casselent.com/Detail.bok?no=188
Not as limited in displacement. And not a huge difference in price. Just sayin...........

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/16/12 03:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The G3 weighs at least 200 lb less than the G2. You said cubic inch for cubic inch, which I take to mean no humongous elephant motor competing with a 430 inch G3.

30 years ago, a friend of mine ran a 433 bigblock chevy powered camaro into the 9s. I bet the latest Hemi heads flow better than the old rectangular ports, and the new "Hemi" chamber is much better than the bbchevy open chamber head which had to have a mountain range in the middle to get compression. That camaro weighed in at around 2950 lb. I don't think a 433 inch G3 Hemi would have any trouble laying waste to that car, meaning I can't see why you couldn't get into the 9s normally aspirated using a stock block.
Now you could also do it with an elephant motor but the $$$ would indeed be more and you'd have more problems with weight transfer, engine fitment, etc.
Just my

R.

Just for s n grins we weighed our Gen 3 Drag Pak motor and it came in at 460 lbs. Our Gen 2 426/484 stoker with K heads came in at 720 lbs. With the new Gen 3 aluminum block could put 468 cubes down to 370 lbs.

anyone know what a BB weighs with aluminum heads and intake?

my gen 3, not running yet

Attached picture 7251941-319720_3206063942937_791243139_n.jpg

Attached picture 7251941-319720_3206063942937_791243139_n.jpg

Posted By: Winchester 73

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/16/12 03:41 AM

Quote:

Dollar for Dollar to run 9.50? I can't see how a Gen 2 hemi could compete with a Gen 3 hemi.

Even in the block price alone, you'd be WAY ahead with a Gen 3.

No way would it be as cool. No way could it compete in blown nitro form, but to run 9.50? Hard to pass up...

Same reason every chevy guy in the world runs a LSX now instead of the old 454.

i disagree

http://www.carcraft.com/techfaq/ccrp_0809_building_hemi_for_less/viewall.html

Posted By: Winchester 73

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/16/12 03:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I say Gen III. I obviously have a swayed opinion on the topic though.
Can you have power adders? Tell me more what your class restriction are. I'm running a 6.1 with forged drop in pistons(stock forged crank stock powdered rods), ported heads, custom cam, TTi headers, and a Kenne Bell supercharger 10 lbs of boost. Making approximately 640 to the wheels. I'm at 3200 lbs as well. that puts me in the ball park of where you want to be. If I had better rods I could turn the wick up to 18-22 lbs and make so monster power, but my build was a so called budget build. I have close to 18 in the motor and power adder.

I know tons of guys running new Chargers, challengers, and 300 that are in the 10.5 range and they are 4400lbs. One of the guys is running it N/A alumin block 46X CI motor. The other are NO2 cars, etc. If it's a budget build just get a short block like my 6.1 port the heads, change the cam, and put the bottle on it and you will make ur number.

I chose to go supercharger b/c of the wow factor.

Ok I will clarify this a bit more. First, this IS purely hypothetical, nothing I will be doing..........at least anytime soon. No power adders here, just heads up, pure motor, cubic inch to cubic inch. One thing that appeals to me about the Gen 3 is the weight as compared to a Gen 2, also the size makes it a winner, but I'm still interested in the best over all performer in this comparison. I'm in no rush to do either cuz I know that every month that goes by the Gen 3 will have more and more available, but the possibilities are already impressive.

BTW, what is currently the largest displacement you can achieve with the Gen 3?

you cant really compare cubic inch to cubic inch and get a fair idea of which would be cheaper.the elephents advantage 500 plus ci stroker kits for under a grand.

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/18/12 04:15 PM

this

Attached picture 7254789-389605_10150954121418930_1641103252_n.jpg

Posted By: SLOW67

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/19/12 04:32 AM

Quote:

Same reason every chevy guy in the world runs a LSX now instead of the old 454.

too bad Mopar hasn't supplied us with an affordable platform like the LS series......

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/19/12 01:32 PM

Just from a weight stand point, the Gen 3 has about 250 lbs advantage from the get go, or roughly 10 percent. So to go 9.50s at 3200 lbs a gen 2 hemi would need about 725 Hp. To run with that combo, a gen 3 would only need 655. Part of that difference I came up with was the Gen 3 can use a 904, which saves power by itself. Add in the weight front/rear advantage, and for a dual purpose car it almost becomes a no brainer IF you don't care what the valve covers look like. Of course that is disregarding the issues of cost, which I don't have a clue on. For a purely race deal, I could see taking my full flow mechanical injection system off the big wedge and run methanol. That would save a ton in computor costs I think. I would love to see something done like that with a bone stock shortblock and purely bolt on parts to just see what could be done like the old days. When it blows up, go to the bone yard and pull another one out of a wrecked Chrysler!

Posted By: SRT6776

Re: A hypothetical question for you all to chew on. - 06/19/12 02:54 PM

There is another 3G right around the corner too guys. Supercharged 6.2L, using the 6.4L crank (if they even do) with the Apache heads it'll be 4.03 Bore X 3.72 Stroke and make 600 at low boost.